Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on December 10, 2016, 04:52:14 PM
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Article from the New York Times looking at the decline of belief in democracy
http://tinyurl.com/jyydbvr
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I think part of the problem - here in the West, anyway - is the way politics are reported. The issues are no longer the story: the story is the political lives of the actors. Some examples:
I was at my parents' house watching the news on the telly on the Saturday before the US general election. In a report on the general election, the journalist listed about five of Hillary Clinton's policies as bullet points. My Dad said "that's the first time I've seen anybody report on what Clinton's policies actually are". All the election coverage was about "can Trump beat Clinton" and "what do the opinion polls say".
Reporting on Jeremy Corbyn is all about how incompetent he is or how much the Labour masses love/despise him. Almost none of it is about what he actually stands for.
So people could be forgiven for thinking politics is just another piece of reality TV and politicians are just another bunch of reality TV stars and it doesn't really matter what they do or how they got there as long as they are entertaining.
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Fully agree. But who can rule on how the media report politics? Especially considering social media with fake news and so on.
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I think part of the problem - here in the West, anyway - is the way politics are reported. The issues are no longer the story: the story is the political lives of the actors. Some examples:
I was at my parents' house watching the news on the telly on the Saturday before the US general election. In a report on the general election, the journalist listed about five of Hillary Clinton's policies as bullet points. My Dad said "that's the first time I've seen anybody report on what Clinton's policies actually are". All the election coverage was about "can Trump beat Clinton" and "what do the opinion polls say".
Reporting on Jeremy Corbyn is all about how incompetent he is or how much the Labour masses love/despise him. Almost none of it is about what he actually stands for.
So people could be forgiven for thinking politics is just another piece of reality TV and politicians are just another bunch of reality TV stars and it doesn't really matter what they do or how they got there as long as they are entertaining.
The solution is to sack Keunsberg, Robinson, Humphries, Webb and Co.
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hmm .. and replace Today with an extended version of The Archers that covers policy options?
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I think part of the problem - here in the West, anyway - is the way politics are reported. The issues are no longer the story: the story is the political lives of the actors. Some examples:
I was at my parents' house watching the news on the telly on the Saturday before the US general election. In a report on the general election, the journalist listed about five of Hillary Clinton's policies as bullet points. My Dad said "that's the first time I've seen anybody report on what Clinton's policies actually are". All the election coverage was about "can Trump beat Clinton" and "what do the opinion polls say".
Reporting on Jeremy Corbyn is all about how incompetent he is or how much the Labour masses love/despise him. Almost none of it is about what he actually stands for.
So people could be forgiven for thinking politics is just another piece of reality TV and politicians are just another bunch of reality TV stars and it doesn't really matter what they do or how they got there as long as they are entertaining.
I think the problem is far more fundamental than that, jeremy. Modern politics seems to be solely concerned with the short-term, seldom, if ever the long term. As a result, people from all walks of life, all social groupings and all ages see it as having limited relevance to their lives which, in most cases, are long-term in nature.
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Article from the New York Times looking at the decline of belief in democracy
http://tinyurl.com/jyydbvr
What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.
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What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.
Jack, you are so naive.
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What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.
No Jack, that's called paranoia
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I think the problem is far more fundamental than that, jeremy. Modern politics seems to be solely concerned with the short-term, seldom, if ever the long term. As a result, people from all walks of life, all social groupings and all ages see it as having limited relevance to their lives which, in most cases, are long-term in nature.
I think what you describe there is less fundamental than my thesis. I'm talking about the fundamental breakdown of democracy because the media are no longer reporting properly on the issues, they are reporting on what the politicians are doing.
By the way, I don't see any evidence of short termism in British politics at the moment. The big story is about something that isn't going to happen for at least two years but when it does happen will affect us for the rest of our lives. Say what you like about the Brexiteers, but they are not short termist.
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you're right there Jeremyp
I'm a long termite.
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No Jack, that's called paranoia
No it's called the facts.
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I think what you describe there is less fundamental than my thesis. I'm talking about the fundamental breakdown of democracy because the media are no longer reporting properly on the issues, they are reporting on what the politicians are doing.
That's been true for over a century.
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What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.
Indeed! That's why they're shitting their pants, because they've been finally found out.
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Indeed! That's why they're shitting their pants, because they've been finally found out.
The broad left has been saying this for years. Your prediction that they've finally been found out is false. They were found our long ago. The systems and the electorate maintained the status quo. Despite the recent alleged 'upheavals' - for example Brexit & the Donald I see nothing that changes the underlying problems. In fact certainly in the case of the USA I think the recent elections will only magnify & maintain the problems.
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The broad left has been saying this for years. Your prediction that they've finally been found out is false. They were found our long ago. The systems and the electorate maintained the status quo. Despite the recent alleged 'upheavals' - for example Brexit & the Donald I see nothing that changes the underlying problems. In fact certainly in the case of the USA I think the recent elections will only magnify & maintain the problems.
As I posted on the US election thread, with the possibility that Trump appoints a 3rd Goldman Sachs person
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8mduTEvnU0
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What democracy? The people are waking up to the fact that the whole system is rigged to suit a small elite for their own benefits.
Conspiracy theorist ;D ;D
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Article from the New York Times looking at the decline of belief in democracy
http://tinyurl.com/jyydbvr
Isn't it the rise in populism at the expense of liberal minded values ? Not good for humanists who believe in the trajectory of human progress. When the going gets tough liberal values are the first to go as we look to our own needs first.
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I think what you describe there is less fundamental than my thesis. I'm talking about the fundamental breakdown of democracy because the media are no longer reporting properly on the issues, they are reporting on what the politicians are doing.
By the way, I don't see any evidence of short termism in British politics at the moment. The big story is about something that isn't going to happen for at least two years but when it does happen will affect us for the rest of our lives. Say what you like about the Brexiteers, but they are not short termist.
I think an electorate get the politicians it deserves, if people don't make it their responsibility to discover policy and just vote on tribal lines then we get soundbite politics. I have heard 'we don't need to listen to experts now' in an attempt to mock Gove when that is based on an inaccurate soundbite.
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The broad left has been saying this for years. Your prediction that they've finally been found out is false. They were found our long ago. The systems and the electorate maintained the status quo. Despite the recent alleged 'upheavals' - for example Brexit & the Donald I see nothing that changes the underlying problems. In fact certainly in the case of the USA I think the recent elections will only magnify & maintain the problems.
There's a difference between the intellectuals seeing these things and the people, the masses doing so or starting to do so.
As for your comments on Brexit and Trump this is just the start, which is never necessarily a perfect move tot the ideal from the status quo. People don't have the perfect choices when the vote, they can only vote for what they are presented with.
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Conspiracy theorist ;D ;D
Banding terms about explains nothing. ;D
I note your personal incredulity.
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Indeed! That's why they're shitting their pants, because they've been finally found out.
Sorry, ad-o, they were found out when I was back in university, 40-odd years ago. Remember that groups have been trying to get the EU to publish their annual accountsfor getting on for 25 years now; these and other groups have been highlighting the problems with systems such as the Common Agricultural Policy, the Fisheries policy, the farcical nature of the 2-base process that sees the EU hierarchy flitting between Strasbourg and Brussels for years - and more recently the structural instability and weakness of the Euro currency. It isn't anything new.
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I think an electorate get the politicians it deserves
Excepting quirks in the electoral system like the one that let Trump in despite his opponent polling more votes than any candidate in history except Obama in 2008.
if people don't make it their responsibility to discover policy and just vote on tribal lines then we get soundbite politics. I have heard 'we don't need to listen to experts now' in an attempt to mock Gove when that is based on an inaccurate soundbite.
I quite agree with that, except the media doesn't make it easy to discover policy and they love voting on tribal lines. Also, Gove knew exactly what he was doing when he uttered that soundbite.
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Excepting quirks in the electoral system like the one that let Trump in despite his opponent polling more votes than any candidate in history except Obama in 2008.
I quite agree with that, except the media doesn't make it easy to discover policy and they love voting on tribal lines. Also, Gove knew exactly what he was doing when he uttered that soundbite.
The soundbite I gave is a quote mine. :)
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The soundbite I gave is a quote mine. :)
I know.
My suggestion is that Gove, an experienced politician knew exactly how it would be quote mined when he said it.
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There's a difference between the intellectuals seeing these things and the people, the masses doing so or starting to do so.
As for your comments on Brexit and Trump this is just the start, which is never necessarily a perfect move tot the ideal from the status quo. People don't have the perfect choices when the vote, they can only vote for what they are presented with.
Except, of course, the popular vote in the USA makes a nonsense of your premise. Even you can see that. If we have a majority for BREXIT in the UK which I accept (even though it was a majority obtained by continual lying) Then you surely can see that the USA did not in fact vote for Trump, his victory was a product of a system that inaccurately reflects the will of the electorate due to an anachronistic mechanism, namely the electoral college.
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Except, of course, the popular vote in the USA makes a nonsense of your premise. Even you can see that. If we have a majority for BREXIT in the UK which I accept (even though it was a majority obtained by continual lying) Then you surely can see that the USA did not in fact vote for Trump, his victory was a product of a system that inaccurately reflects the will of the electorate due to an anachronistic mechanism, namely the electoral college.
As for Brexit, this charge of lying by the Leave campaign is just sour grapes and a one sided and duplicitous look at things. The Remain lot lied and employed project fear, which, even though horrendous in its claims, failed to turn the voters to the Remain side and turned out to not be true, as the Leave campaign stated.
As for Trump that does prove my case because in "normal" times he would not even have become a candidate for the GOP, let allow President. He would have been seen as a weirdo clown of a figure that people would have jeered at. But instead that "clown" was taken seriously by enough voters to kick a long standing politician with a long top grade record by a system that all accepted and had been well entrenched for some time.
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As for Brexit, this charge of lying by the Leave campaign is just sour grapes and a one sided and duplicitous look at things. The Remain lot lied and employed project fear, which, even though horrendous in its claims, failed to turn the voters to the Remain side and turned out to not be true, as the Leave campaign stated.
As for Trump that does prove my case because in "normal" times he would not even have become a candidate for the GOP, let allow President. He would have been seen as a weirdo clown of a figure that people would have jeered at. But instead that "clown" was taken seriously by enough voters to kick a long standing politician with a long top grade record by a system that all accepted and had been well entrenched for some time.
As usual avoiding my point. What else should I expect.
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As usual avoiding my point. What else should I expect.
No I didn't, I explained your error and wrong thinking. the fact that you couldn't accept it shows your personal incredulity on the matter.
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As for Brexit, this charge of lying by the Leave campaign is just sour grapes and a one sided and duplicitous look at things.
The Brexiteers did lie. Nigel let-me-get-my-tongue-further-up-Trump's-arse Farage admitted as much the day after the vote.
The Remain lot lied and employed project fear, which, even though horrendous in its claims, failed to turn the voters to the Remain side and turned out to not be true, as the Leave campaign stated.
Don't count your chickens. Nobody thought we would be leaving it till March to trigger article 50.
As for Trump that does prove my case because in "normal" times he would not even have become a candidate for the GOP, let allow President. He would have been seen as a weirdo clown of a figure that people would have jeered at. But instead that "clown" was taken seriously by enough voters to kick a long standing politician with a long top grade record by a system that all accepted and had been well entrenched for some time.
Partly because the media failed to live up to democratic ideals.
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The Brexiteers did lie. Nigel let-me-get-my-tongue-further-up-Trump's-arse Farage admitted as much the day after the vote.
Don't count your chickens. Nobody thought we would be living it till March to trigger article 50.
Partly because the media failed to live up to democratic ideals.
That claim was by Vote Leave, UKIP were with Leave.EU.
The only chickens I see are the Remoaners!!!
What has that got to do with the media? What planet are you on, Jeremy?
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That claim was by Vote Leave, UKIP were with Leave.EU.
I fail to see how that excuses the lie.
The only chickens I see are the Remoaners!!!
Avoid the point why don't you.
What has that got to do with the media? What planet are you on, Jeremy?
For a democracy to function, the people have to be well informed. The media would rather whip up xenophobia and hatred because they sell more papers that way.
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No I didn't, I explained your error and wrong thinking. the fact that you couldn't accept it shows your personal incredulity on the matter.
No. I was pointing out that Brexit was won by a majority hence that will happen in some, as yet, undefined manner. A similar result in the USA ended up with the loser as the winner and that the vote for the status quo (which is what you paint Hilary as - although I would argue that trump is actually that) ended up with the loser winning. It is only the malfunctioning mechanism of the electoral college that gave Trump his victory. No personal incredulity involved - but thanks for the ad hom.
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I fail to see how that excuses the lie.
Because you linked it to Farage.
For a democracy to function, the people have to be well informed. The media would rather whip up xenophobia and hatred because they sell more papers that way.
Well informed by who? The lying Remoaners, the elite, the establishment and these so called wanking experts, who have never got anything right? I think not!!!
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No. I was pointing out that Brexit was won by a majority hence that will happen in some, as yet, undefined manner. A similar result in the USA ended up with the loser as the winner and that the vote for the status quo (which is what you paint Hilary as - although I would argue that trump is actually that) ended up with the loser winning. It is only the malfunctioning mechanism of the electoral college that gave Trump his victory. No personal incredulity involved - but thanks for the ad hom.
This started by you answering one of my posts. Now I see you have reframed the issue by moving the goalposts in order to get the answer to your issue that you want. What you have answered isn't what I was talking about. :P
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I fail to see how that excuses the lie.
Avoid the point why don't you.
For a democracy to function, the people have to be well informed. The media would rather whip up xenophobia and hatred because they sell more papers that way.
Jeremy
you fail to understand something very important . I and many others chose to vote out as soon as we knew we could . I for one knew exactly how I would vote long before the politicians started with their lies . I had been waiting for the opportunity for years , someone somewhere said they would rather eat cabbage soup for years than stay in the 'union' , that includes me.
The lie ,as you call it was irrelevant to many people.
If you've got some nice French bread. Dip it ;)
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This started by you answering one of my posts. Now I see you have reframed the issue by moving the goalposts in order to get the answer to your issue that you want. What you have answered isn't what I was talking about. :P
Nope. You made a claim about the way the masses are voting which is simply not born out by the example of the USA.
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Nope. You made a claim about the way the masses are voting which is simply not born out by the example of the USA.
Just to note that Jack Knave has been suspended for 7 days, see link, so there will not be a reply for that time.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=6939.50
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Jeremy
you fail to understand something very important . I and many others chose to vote out as soon as we knew we could . I for one knew exactly how I would vote long before the politicians started with their lies . I had been waiting for the opportunity for years,
Yes but how did you form an opinion about the EU?
someone somewhere said they would rather eat cabbage soup for years than stay in the 'union' , that includes me.
Which is an incredibly selfish attitude. You may not mind living on cabbage soup for the next ten years, but I and most other people would rather not.
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Yes but how did you form an opinion about the EU?
Which is an incredibly selfish attitude. You may not mind living on cabbage soup for the next ten years, but I and most other people would rather not.
Jeremyp
my opinion was formed by my natural desire to be independent and self supporting on a personal level, which I extended to a national level .
As for being selfish you are probably right about that however it turns out many others voted out too. I cant explain why they did that though ,you would have to ask them.
I know this is not the same but a principle is involved here. When I got divorced I was prepared to take a hit just to get rid of the thing I didn't like and expected life to be a bit harder for a while . It was but things improved when I applied myself to the new situation and just got on with it.
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Cabbage soup is nice.
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Weirdo
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Cabbage soup is nice.
with a splash of malt vinegar, lovely. ;D
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Jeremyp
my opinion was formed by my natural desire to be independent and self supporting on a personal level, which I extended to a national level .
That is wishy washy nonsense. My opinion was formed by my recognition that we accomplish more if we work together as a team which
I extend to the national level. See it works just as well
Why do you think your independence is threatened by the EU? Answer: the media tells you that.
As for being selfish you are probably right about that however it turns out many others voted out too.
Why does that make it OK?
I cant explain why they did that though ,you would have to ask them.
I know this is not the same but a principle is involved here. When I got divorced I was prepared to take a hit just to get rid of the thing I didn't like and expected life to be a bit harder for a while . It was but things improved when I applied myself to the new situation and just got on with it.
But this is like you telling everybody to get divorced.
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Cabbage soup is nice.
Not if you have to eat it for every meal.
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That is wishy washy nonsense. My opinion was formed by my recognition that we accomplish more if we work together as a team which
I extend to the national level. See it works just as well
Why do you think your independence is threatened by the EU? Answer: the media tells you that.Why does that make it OK?
But this is like you telling everybody to get divorced.
the media had no influence on my decision.
And in your arrogance you presume you have the right to state it as fact . Wind your neck in, eh!.
You can work in a team if you want, if it satisfies your insecure need to be 'part of something' that can 'achieve more' together.
I used to teach this corporate bollocks to new recruits in the finance industry for many years to the point of loosing my self respect, the more they achieved as a team , the more I earned .Very nice .
The divorce thing? I was just pointing out that I saw similarities , you can do what you like with that bit of trivia.
however if you are contemplating divorce ill just say this , the older you are the more difficult it is to adapt to change , so think carefully. I would hate to think of you stumbling about in the dark all confused and bewildered trying to find the toilet in the middle of the night at a mates house while you get yourself back on your feet.
no offence...and
best wishes
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the media had no influence on my decision.
Rubbish.
You can work in a team if you want, if it satisfies your insecure need to be 'part of something' that can 'achieve more' together.
I used to teach this corporate bollocks to new recruits in the finance industry for many years to the point of loosing my self respect, the more they achieved as a team , the more I earned .Very nice .
This is a joke right? The modern world was built by teams, not individuals.
The divorce thing? I was just pointing out that I saw similarities
And I was pointing out why the analogy is flawed.
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Rubbish.
This is a joke right? The modern world was built by teams, not individuals.
And I was pointing out why the analogy is flawed.
you have a very naïve view of the world , so i'll leave it at that .