Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Philosophy, in all its guises. => Topic started by: Dicky Underpants on February 23, 2017, 05:52:08 PM
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This is probably a topic which has been done to death itself elsewhere on this forum. It was an item on Woman's Hour this morning that set me thinking whilst I was pulling on me kecks and boots.
A poor woman had been struggling to look after her 88 year old mother who was suffering from dementia, with the assistance of carers who came round for short periods. The poor daughter was obviously devoting most of her time to this gruesome task, dealing with incoherence, rapid mood swings, and of course, frequent double incontinence. The mother had just about every day said "I want to die". The interviewer asked the daughter "Would you ever think of putting your mother in a home?" "Oh, never!" came the reply, "if I did that she would surely die. I care for her out of love".
I have to say that I began to lose sympathy for the daughter's terrible plight, she having shackled herself to a living hell. I felt that if her aged mother were put into a home and rapidly died - even through the negligence of relatively unsympathetic carers - this would have been a better situation all round. The daughter had developed a morbid attachment to her mother (IMO), and had no other close relationships in her life, and devoted herself to prolonging a situation which was doing nothing for her mother except prolong her agonies, and nothing for herself except give herself the feeling that she was being righteous and saving her mother from greater pain if she were left to the authorities. Better a short spell of agony and a quick death for someone that age, than these obsessive attachments whose virtues are somewhat dubious, IMO.
Having said that, it's not a situation I'd like to be forced into making a choice about.
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For the last two years of his life my father was a nightmare for my mother to look after. In her 80s herself she was ground down by his dementia where he got dressed at two in the morning to go to work, where he would break down in tears at what he had to do to make sure he got paid his pension, where he searched her room for the man she had hidden there.
And yet only recently she showed me his scrawled, apoligetic note on a booklet about how to deal with dementia!, with his apology of how he knew he was drifting away and losing and abusing her.
A couple of weeks before he died, he got taken onto hospital. I saw him at the weekend in the middle as I was working away during the week. He was relatively compos but still insisted that what the nurses had done for his sore back was to give him cream doughnuts for it.
The following Friday , my mother called, as broken as i have ever known her. She had been to the hospital with my sister, and the consultant had announced the good news! My dad would be able to get out soon and he could go home! There would be lots of support for him during the day. So many people that my mother would in her mind be a stranger in her own house. But at night she would still have to deal with him ranting about men she had and trying to hit her. This was after her children trying to persuade her for 2 years that he needed to be in a home.
I promised her that she would never have that happen.
The next day, he died. I loved my father dearly, strongly. But I was glad for him and my mother.
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That is a sad story Nearly &know something about things like that from experience.
But my experience was not as bad as your mother's.
There should be more sedation. I'd want to be well sedated.
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That is a sad story Nearly &know something about things like that from experience.
But my experience was not as bad as your mother's.
There should be more sedation. I'd want to be well sedated.
Sad? Maybe, maybe not. Decisions over life and death are the most serious things we do. The idea that any life even if it feels inflicted on the person living it, is worthwhile just seems odd to me. I was more following DickyU's point that it is easy to get trapped into a cycle of keeping someone alive because you should keep someone alive. There wasn't really any point in my father's life where it was a cruelty to support his life but there are often cases where stopping someone dying us a cruelty.
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Stopping someone dying when their life is misery certainly is a cruelty. The way antibiotics are administered quickly for infection in a very sick person is unnecessary and cruel. Staying alive is often overrated.
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I have an elderly aunt, my remaining older relative, in a care home: previously a highly competent woman to whom I owe so much. She 'stepped in' following the death of my mother (her sister) when I was 8, and these days I have power of attorney over her affairs and she is a shadow of the person she once was.
I love her dearly, but when she dies I won't mourn her - I've already done that.
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At my dad's funeral, I mourned him for others, but you are right, for me he had gone before. I mourned him in the times I saw him lost, confused, missing.
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I was my mother's carer for the last dozen years of her life. Her problems were mainly physical. but dementia developed in her last year. Thank God for help from social services, but, even so, it wasn't easy picking excrement up when I couldn't see the stuff at times. As her situation progressed, I had to spend an increasing time with her - leaving for more than a few hours meant an emotional outburst which took a while to get under control. I had certain disability issues of my own to deal with as well, so the situation was often fraught to say the least. The mother-son bond was, however, very strong, and, having some knowledge of local care homes. this was not even on the agenda. Euthenasia wasn't an option either - nor should it be. I have no problem with assisted dying when the person in question has full control of their faculties, but the taking of a life without consent is something I would not contemplate.
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Like Gordon, as some of you will remember, I am dealing with my Mother who has quite severe dementia now. I also feel like I have mourned her already, or perhaps more accurately I am mourning her already because it still hurts when I visit - as I did this evening - to see her confused, unknowing, unknown to a certain extent, sad, angry, hurting - everything she wasn't when she was my Mother, which she really isn't anymore.
If Mum was an animal we would put her down - I'm not sure I'm confident enough or sure enough in my own mind to propose that kind of action. But sometimes it seems that surely it would be the more humane thing to do. I don't know.
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Rational thinking is so amoral! It will one day find enough reasons to kill off most people on the planet just because the few others want to live well. ::)
I might agree with the idea of euthanasia for old people (how old?) who have dementia and are a burden on others. But how about disabled children, spastics, with down's syndrome, with cancers, middle aged people with Parkinson's, cancers, paralysis, people in deep poverty etc. Should they also be killed off to avoid being a burden on others.
Taking a spiritual view, the more we help others and the more the struggles we face, the cleaner our atma (soul) becomes and the nearer we are to Eternal Freedom or salvation.
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Wow, Sriram, just wow! You read the posts on this thread and thought they were about rational thinking? Do you have a single iota of empathy?
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Wow, Sriram, just wow! You read the posts on this thread and thought they were about rational thinking? Do you have a single iota of empathy?
It is through 'rational thinking' that we arrive at such simplistic solutions. That is the problem and limitation of rational thinking.
It is due to my empathy with the patients that I am saying what I said. It is so easy to say that 'they are suffering and so kill them off''. Who decides the criteria, the norms and the basis on which to end the lives of the people?
Don't misunderstand! I am not for artificially prolonging the life of anyone...even children. Let nature take its course and whenever their life ends after reasonable medical care...so be it.
The emphasize should not be on the suffering of the caretakers. That is the point. Once we start worrying about the care takers...there is no limit.
If it is fallen to the lot of someone to take care of his/her parent, child, spouse or someone else...they should do so..and they will also be the better for it. Inner growth is more important than outer comfort.
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It is due to my empathy with the patients that I am saying what I said. It is so easy to say that 'they are suffering and so kill them off''. Who decides the criteria, the norms and the basis on which to end the lives of the people?
The point is that it is usually the patients themselves who have had enough and want to die. So it isn't that others are saying 'they are suffering and so kill them off', but them saying 'I am suffering unbearably, please let me die'.
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My husband's brother (83) has severe dementia. His wife, who is a year younger than him, was persuaded to put him in a care home in 2015. Sadly he has now got violent and is assaulting the staff and other patients, so is having to be sedated until a more suitable home is found where they can cope with his behaviour. He would certainly be better off dead than suffering the torment he is experiencing at present.
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My husband's brother (83) has severe dementia. His wife, who is a year younger than him, was persuaded to put him in a care home in 2015. Sadly he has now got violent and is assaulting the staff and other patients, so is having to be sedated until a more suitable home is found where they can cope with his behaviour. He would certainly be better off dead than suffering the torment he is experiencing at present.
While sad, killing people you don't think are valuable is a step too far for me.
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While sad, killing people you don't think are valuable is a step too far for me.
Thanks for your personal input, NS - and that of everyone else who has had direct experience of these terrible dilemmas. I'll try to get back and say something coherent when I've put my thoughts together.
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While sad, killing people you don't think are valuable is a step too far for me.
I didn't suggest killing him, which would be wrong without his permission. I am in agreement with assisted suicide though.
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I didn't suggest killing him, which would be wrong without his permission. I am in agreement with assisted suicide though.
so does he want to be killed?
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so does he want to be killed?
How can you tell when somebody has dementia?
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How can you tell when somebody has dementia?
Once someone has dementia or another ailment seriously affecting decision making and communication abilities you can't confidently tell what they "want". However, why can't we have a system in which people can indicate their wishes clearly beforehand, prior to becoming incapacitated, and be confident that they will be honoured?
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so does he want to be killed?
I have no idea, nobody is suggesting that he should be killed.
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I have no idea, nobody is suggesting that he should be killed.
Except it's on a thread covering euthanasia.
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Except it's on a thread covering euthanasia.
As well as dementia.
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It is through 'rational thinking' that we arrive at such simplistic solutions. That is the problem and limitation of rational thinking.
It is due to my empathy with the patients that I am saying what I said. It is so easy to say that 'they are suffering and so kill them off''. Who decides the criteria, the norms and the basis on which to end the lives of the people?
Don't misunderstand! I am not for artificially prolonging the life of anyone...even children. Let nature take its course and whenever their life ends after reasonable medical care...so be it.
The emphasize should not be on the suffering of the caretakers. That is the point. Once we start worrying about the care takers...there is no limit.
If it is fallen to the lot of someone to take care of his/her parent, child, spouse or someone else...they should do so..and they will also be the better for it. Inner growth is more important than outer comfort.
When my father had times of lucidity, the vague understandings of what he had done tortured him, and the fear of it disappearing haunted him. At no point though in my post did I suggest, and indeed I specifically excluded any idea of euthanasia for him. The looking after him drive my mother to near desoaratuon but despite me putting that in the post, you blithely assert that it was good for her and that we shouldn't worry about her suffering. If you do have empathy, then I can only hope you rather carelessly posted without actually reading the post because had you read it and real luef with ththe above, then your definition of empathy and mine are unrelated.
As to rational thinking, you are just confused here. Rational or irrational thinking can only take a you to a decision based on your values, which are not rationally chosen. If I think that it is wrong to take a life, then rationally I will not choose euthanasia. If I think that it is wrong to take a life, o could irrationally do it for any number of bad reasons. You need to distinguish between having different values, and then how you take decisions.
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As well as dementia.
Which is why we need to be clear about what people actually believe. Given that the thread title and OP set a context of whether euthanasia in the context of dementia was a suitable action, I was trying to draw out whether anyone with dementia can give consent, following on your clarification clarification that 'he would certainly be better off dead' did not mean that you believed in involuntary euthanasia in that case.
As Udayana has mentioned, there is the possibility of declarations before any such conditions apply of what we want to happen, and while I see that that feels achievable I am conscious of the fact that I wrote my own (non binding) living will 15 years ago. It's not the sort of thing I think about revisiting and offhand, while I am sure I would say much the same thing now as well hen, I don't actually recall it clearly enough to have a high degree of certainty on some of what the statements were.
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Which is why we need to be clear about what people actually believe. Given that the thread title and OP set a context of whether euthanasia in the context of dementia was a suitable action, I was trying to draw out whether anyone with dementia can give consent, following on your clarification clarification that 'he would certainly be better off dead' did not mean that you believed in involuntary euthanasia in that case.
As Udayana has mentioned, there is the possibility of declarations before any such conditions apply of what we want to happen, and while I see that that feels achievable I am conscious of the fact that I wrote my own (non binding) living will 15 years ago. It's not the sort of thing I think about revisiting and offhand, while I am sure I would say much the same thing now as well hen, I don't actually recall it clearly enough to have a high degree of certainty on some of what the statements were.
No a person with dementia could not give a valid consent imo. This is why if assisted suicide ever became legal, it should be discussed on a 'what if' basis when a person has all their wits about them.
Two years before my husband became brain damaged after his subarachnoid haemorrhage, we had a 'what if' discussion about what would happen if either of became disabled. He made it quite clear that he would not wish to live if his brain was impaired. When we were called in by the consultant and told my husband would be left drooling in a nursing home if he regained consciousness as the damage was so great, half his brain being trashed, I asked if his life support could be switched off. However, he didn't apparently fit the criteria as he wasn't completely brain dead. He has made a much better than expected recovery, but he still wishes he hadn't survived as he is unable to return to academia, his greatest interest and love.
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Do you think someone with lucid moments in dementia are able to make that decision?
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Do you think someone with lucid moments in dementia are able to make that decision?
It depends how bad the dementia is I suppose. My husband's brother is sadly so away with the fairies he doesn't have any lucid moments these days. :o
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It depends how bad the dementia is I suppose. My husband's brother is sadly so away with the fairies he doesn't have any lucid moments these days. :o
Dementia is an awful thing, both for the sufferer and their family.
Hopefully if he is so far away with the fairies, he is happy.
Sometimes it must be awful to be living in the past and looking for people who are not there. Or coming too and realising what a state you are in.
Very frightening I would think, not sure many would opt for euthanasia, it might just add another "fear'.
Old people can sometimes be afraid and think the doctors are trying to polish them off anyway. It's insecurity, the fear.
The Liverpool trail or whatever it is, where they had a system of allowing people to die, sometimes otherwise healthy elderly people think they are on it, mainly because I think they are not receiving treatment ( some medicines are not given over a certain age)
Some also end up thinking people are trying to poison them.
I think there is some fear that people will decide due to lack of funds in the NHS and carers and an increasing ratio of old people, that in some cases it would be more cost effective to bump off the more needy old folks off.
Care homes are horrendously expensive.
Children can't always cope with an elderly parent who doesn't even recognise them anymore, plus their partner probably is not onboard with their elderly inlaw moving in.
I think it is my generation ( baby boomer) that will face this issue.
We now have smaller families and we don't always live close to parents. People are going to be expected to work until their late sixties or for the younger generation seventies.
I can't see how that's going to work, unless you have an office job.
Nurses often suffer with bad backs and it's a bit hopeful that they will be up to a full nursing shift in their late sixties and seventies.
Anyone with a manual job is going to be at a disadvantage.
I know nurses who can't get an office job, because they don't have that kind of experience.
I think we are going to have a real issue in this country coming up in the future.
I wish I didn't feel euthanasia was going to raise it's ugly head somewhere, but I think it will.
You also have Brexit and fewer immigrants which might not help.
I think I would resist euthanasia for the elderly because I feel it's on the slippery slope towards bumping off people for convenience. All to easy to find excuses, needy old age is a very difficult time for all concerned. Too easy to try and avoid it, by thinking it's better to spare needy old people the indignity of all that.
So on that cheerful note this morning................
🙁
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Dementia is an awful thing, both for the sufferer and their family.
Hopefully if he is so far away with the fairies, he is happy.
Sometimes it must be awful to be living in the past and looking for people who are not there. Or coming too and realising what a state you are in.
Very frightening I would think, not sure many would opt for euthanasia, it might just add another "fear'.
Old people can sometimes be afraid and think the doctors are trying to polish them off anyway. It's insecurity, the fear.
The Liverpool trail or whatever it is, where they had a system of allowing people to die, sometimes otherwise healthy elderly people think they are on it, mainly because I think they are not receiving treatment ( some medicines are not given over a certain age)
Some also end up thinking people are trying to poison them.
I think there is some fear that people will decide due to lack of funds in the NHS and carers and an increasing ratio of old people, that in some cases it would be more cost effective to bump off the more needy old folks off.
Care homes are horrendously expensive.
Children can't always cope with an elderly parent who doesn't even recognise them anymore, plus their partner probably is not onboard with their elderly inlaw moving in.
I think it is my generation ( baby boomer) that will face this issue.
We now have smaller families and we don't always live close to parents. People are going to be expected to work until their late sixties or for the younger generation seventies.
I can't see how that's going to work, unless you have an office job.
Nurses often suffer with bad backs and it's a bit hopeful that they will be up to a full nursing shift in their late sixties and seventies.
Anyone with a manual job is going to be at a disadvantage.
I know nurses who can't get an office job, because they don't have that kind of experience.
I think we are going to have a real issue in this country coming up in the future.
I wish I didn't feel euthanasia was going to raise it's ugly head somewhere, but I think it will.
You also have Brexit and fewer immigrants which might not help.
I think I would resist euthanasia for the elderly because I feel it's on the slippery slope towards bumping off people for convenience. All to easy to find excuses, needy old age is a very difficult time for all concerned. Too easy to try and avoid it, by thinking it's better to spare needy old people the indignity of all that.
So on that cheerful note this morning................
🙁
Sadly my brother-in-law is not a happy man. He has turned into a very violent guy who loses his rag a lot, he was not violent until about 6 months ago. :o He is being kept medicated until they can find a home better suited to his mood swings than the one he is in at present.
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Sorry to hear that Floo.
Hope he finds somewhere soon that he feels more comfortable in.
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Sorry to hear that Floo.
Hope he finds somewhere soon that he feels more comfortable in.
The kindest thing would be if nature takes its course very soon, he has quite a number of physical health problems too like prostate cancer, an aortic aneurysm and heart problems.
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My brother in law is now in a care home which is better able to take care of his needs. However, my husband and I still think the sooner nature takes its course the better. If my husband was like his brother, I would wish the same for him too.
Getting back to the subject of euthanasia, I was wondering whether there were any extreme circumstances where people would be prepared to take someone's life, even if they hadn't requested it?
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Dementia is an awful thing, both for the sufferer and their family.
Hopefully if he is so far away with the fairies, he is happy.
Sometimes it must be awful to be living in the past and looking for people who are not there. Or coming too and realising what a state you are in.
Very frightening I would think, not sure many would opt for euthanasia, it might just add another "fear'.
Old people can sometimes be afraid and think the doctors are trying to polish them off anyway. It's insecurity, the fear.
The Liverpool trail or whatever it is, where they had a system of allowing people to die, sometimes otherwise healthy elderly people think they are on it, mainly because I think they are not receiving treatment ( some medicines are not given over a certain age)
Some also end up thinking people are trying to poison them.
I think there is some fear that people will decide due to lack of funds in the NHS and carers and an increasing ratio of old people, that in some cases it would be more cost effective to bump off the more needy old folks off.
Care homes are horrendously expensive.
Children can't always cope with an elderly parent who doesn't even recognise them anymore, plus their partner probably is not onboard with their elderly inlaw moving in.
I think it is my generation ( baby boomer) that will face this issue.
We now have smaller families and we don't always live close to parents. People are going to be expected to work until their late sixties or for the younger generation seventies.
I can't see how that's going to work, unless you have an office job.
Nurses often suffer with bad backs and it's a bit hopeful that they will be up to a full nursing shift in their late sixties and seventies.
Anyone with a manual job is going to be at a disadvantage.
I know nurses who can't get an office job, because they don't have that kind of experience.
I think we are going to have a real issue in this country coming up in the future.
I wish I didn't feel euthanasia was going to raise it's ugly head somewhere, but I think it will.
You also have Brexit and fewer immigrants which might not help.
I think I would resist euthanasia for the elderly because I feel it's on the slippery slope towards bumping off people for convenience. All to easy to find excuses, needy old age is a very difficult time for all concerned. Too easy to try and avoid it, by thinking it's better to spare needy old people the indignity of all that.
So on that cheerful note this morning................
🙁
Sending people to the Knackers yard because they are perceived not to be economically useful?
State run or Chappie and Winalot....or maybe Fray Bentos?