Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on February 27, 2017, 02:39:55 PM
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Hi everyone,
Here is a BBC article about Brits in Germany who are seeking German citizenship.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-39082468
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The Brexit debate in the UK is focusing on the rights of EU migrants in the country, among them about 300,000 Germans. Many people are worried about what will happen to them after Brexit. But how are the 100,000 Brits in Germany feeling?
Most are either applying for German citizenship or counting the days until they've spent enough time here to be eligible.
Not so very long ago, saying to other Brits that you're becoming German would almost inevitably lead to some tired gag about Nazis or towels on sun loungers. And although some British headlines might still use those cliches - and you can expect a few more if Brexit talks get nasty - today, modern Germany is seen more often as a bastion of tolerant values: international, democratic and open to immigrants.
...over the past few decades Germany has been going through a difficult, and largely successful, process of redefining what it means to be German. Angela Merkel now refers to Germany as "a country of immigration" - an unimaginable statement for a centre-right chancellor until very recently. And today 20% of Germans are described as having a migrant background.
Brexit-Britain and Trump's US, meanwhile, seem to be heading in the opposite direction.
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Any views?
Sriram
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As some you may be aware, I own property in France. I know a number of British people who live permanently in France.
Many of them are concerned by the hard line towards the UK leaving the EU to which Theresa May appears to be espoused. They find her apparently absolutist rhetoric difficult to understand. These feelings are complicated by the possibility that France may elect Marine Le Pen to the presidency later this year.
There is no certainty of non-British EU citizens currently living in the UK being permitted to continue doing so should the UK leave the EU. There is every possibility that EU countries, in the future, will not permit UK citizens to continue to reside there should UK citizens cease to be EU citizens. The precaution of seeking citizenship of the country in which they have made their home is entirely sensible. This step does not diminish their "Britishness", they simply acquire dual nationality.
I don't know of anyone who finds this approach to solving a problem of personal security surprising, Sriram, so what is it that you find sufficiently remarkable to raise it in your original post?
I know people who have applied for French citizenship and I also know of people who considering acquiring Irish nationality - which apparently only requires that one grandparent should have been an Irish citizen.
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Hmmm....! Some of you seem to think any thread on the UK is some kind of an affront! Not a good sign!! :(
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Hmmm....! Some of you
Would you care to name those people? ::)
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As some you may be aware, I own property in France. I know a number of British people who live permanently in France.
Many of them are concerned by the hard line towards the UK leaving the EU to which Theresa May appears to be espoused. They find her apparently absolutist rhetoric difficult to understand. These feelings are complicated by the possibility that France may elect Marine Le Pen to the presidency later this year.
There is no certainty of non-British EU citizens currently living in the UK being permitted to continue doing so should the UK leave the EU. There is every possibility that EU countries, in the future, will not permit UK citizens to continue to reside there should UK citizens cease to be EU citizens. The precaution of seeking citizenship of the country in which they have made their home is entirely sensible. This step does not diminish their "Britishness", they simply acquire dual nationality.
I don't know of anyone who finds this approach to solving a problem of personal security surprising, Sriram, so what is it that you find sufficiently remarkable to raise it in your original post?
I know people who have applied for French citizenship and I also know of people who considering acquiring Irish nationality - which apparently only requires that one grandparent should have been an Irish citizen.
Hopefully we will guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK and these and the rights of UK citizens in the EU will be defined and agreed at the start of any negotiations. A son lives and works in Spain, so this is a concern.
Can't see any problems with people adopting the nationality of the country they are living in. I lived and worked in Germany for a few years in the early 80s - if I were still there would almost certainly have taken up German citizenship by now. People were very friendly and welcoming (though at that time few understood vegetarianism :) ). The only explicit racism I encountered was from Turks!
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Hmmm....! Some of you seem to think any thread on the UK is some kind of an affront! Not a good sign!! :(
I looked and looked and couldn't see any affronedness in the posts on the thread Sriram H H is concerned about the status of people not living in their own countries when we have left, he has a house in France, he's right to be concerned, we all are, I'm a leaver can't wait to leave but I still want to see fair play for any displaced persons, property rights etc, English or any of the others.
Can't see what you mean Sriram, perhaps you could clarify.
ippy
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I looked and looked and couldn't see any affronedness in the posts on the thread Sriram H H is concerned about the status of people not living in their own countries when we have left, he has a house in France, he's right to be concerned, we all are, I'm a leaver can'r wait to leave but I still want to see fair play for any displaced persons, property rights etc, English or any of the others.
Can't see what you mean Sriram, perhaps you could clarify.
ippy
That's precisely my point. There is lots to discuss on this subject and is quite topical.
But HH reacted by asking why I am raising this subject. A similar question was raised about the Schizophrenia thread. Quite clearly some people are touchy about UK related subjects being raised, even though inane threads are being stared every day which no one questions.
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People don't see that attitude in themselves Sriraim.
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I'm not remotely touchy about threads raised about issues in the UK - and let's face it, there are shed loads of them.
I am cynical about Sriram's motivation in doing so given his track record of using legit stories about the UK to promote his view that Indian culture is superior to the disgusting and decadent west. I have to say that he's getting better at not being so obvious about it these days.
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That's precisely my point. There is lots to discuss on this subject and is quite topical.
But HH reacted by asking why I am raising this subject. A similar question was raised about the Schizophrenia thread. Quite clearly some people are touchy about UK related subjects being raised, even though inane threads are being stared every day which no one questions.
I'm not sure if this is any kind of answer or not; I think in common with most leavers I thought we have been clear about cutting our ties with europe whilst wishing to remain on good terms with our neighbours, with things like being fair to displaced people of all nationalities as I have said.
Maybe it's because we have stated our case for leaving with the details so many times, it can be a bit peeving when asked something thought to be understood previously, i.e. "oh no not again"?
ippy
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I have been looking into taking up dual UK/Romanian citizenship. I would far rather be associated with Romanians than with Brexiters.
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I have been looking into taking up dual UK/Romanian citizenship. I would far rather be associated with Romanians than with Brexiters.
So you would be a Remainian Romanian?
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;D
Of course.
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;D
Of course.
just a pity you are Orthodox, instead of RC as that would be Remainian Romanian Roman
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I'm not remotely touchy about threads raised about issues in the UK - and let's face it, there are shed loads of them.
I am cynical about Sriram's motivation in doing so given his track record of using legit stories about the UK to promote his view that Indian culture is superior to the disgusting and decadent west. I have to say that he's getting better at not being so obvious about it these days.
I told you so...! ::)
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I'm not sure if this is any kind of answer or not; I think in common with most leavers I thought we have been clear about cutting our ties with europe whilst wishing to remain on good terms with our neighbours, with things like being fair to displaced people of all nationalities as I have said.
Maybe it's because we have stated our case for leaving with the details so many times, it can be a bit peeving when asked something thought to be understood previously, i.e. "oh no not again"?
ippy
It was in the BBC news site. So it was topical enough I should think. If people have nothing to comment...they shouldn't!
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Hi everyone,
There appears to be a subtle 'foreigner' bias surfacing on here. Shows the effects of the Brexit vote perhaps (largely among the remainers I find, oddly!).
I don't see anything wrong with either this thread or the schizophrenia thread. Both were reported on the BBC of that day and both are fairly important subjects compared to the threads on swearing, Pancake, grandmother etc.....and the innumerable ones started by NS.
No....I don't intent to take offence because I know the insecurities involved. I understand!
Just that you people and the mods should wake up to the fact.
Cheers.
Sriram
PS: I have pointed this out some months/years back. I know Rhiannon, HH and some others, have a problem and are always itching to make a negative point about India. Please start a thread....I'll discuss. Don't keep getting defensive about UK on every thread.
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Hi everyone,
There appears to be a subtle 'foreigner' bias surfacing on here.
Why do you assume it is a foreigner bias and not just about you?
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I found the opening post reasonably interesting, got the point after reading twice & can't say I saw any bias in it at all. Germany was praised but it didn't seem anti-British, was just stating facts as seen from outside both.
The unexpected Brexit vote was a shock and has caused insecurity but we'll manage and everything will settle down eventually. We've weathered war and recessions, we'll get through this.
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Why do you assume it is a foreigner bias and not just about you?
Lots of people have a problem with me. One, that I am in India, second that I am a Hindu, third that I advocate secular spirituality, fourth I also write significantly about science topics and (horror of horrors!) I actually try to integrate spirituality and science.... and even call spirituality a Science!! >:(
I have tolerated it for more than 17 years from the BBC boards. Some more years will not hurt.
I am not going to change, so get used to it! :)
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I found the opening post reasonably interesting, got the point after reading twice & can't say I saw any bias in it at all. Germany was praised but it didn't seem anti-British, was just stating facts as seen from outside both.
The unexpected Brexit vote was a shock and has caused insecurity but we'll manage and everything will settle down eventually. We've weathered war and recessions, we'll get through this.
Actually it was just a link and an extract from the BBC article. There was no need for anyone to get offended or get all uppity about UK vs India and all that.
There is lot that can be discussed on these subjects....but then, people seem to prefer discussions of four letter words and pancakes! ::)
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I haven't seen anything to complain about in your posts. After reading this thread I looked at a few in case I'd missed something. However people have different perspectives.
As for Britain or more precisely the UK, I haven't lived anywhere else,like it here and wouldn't emigrate. Also like being European and would be pleased for that to continue. People who have settled here from other countries are welcome as far as I'm concerned, they make life more interesting.
We don't own the country we are born in, nationalism is stupid to me. Pre-referendum campaigns (UKRAP)stirred nationalsim up which is unpleasant. About time we looked around and realised how lucky we are. Always room for improvement but we can work on that.
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Lots of people have a problem with me. One, that I am in India, second that I am a Hindu, third that I advocate secular spirituality, fourth I also write significantly about science topics and (horror of horrors!) I actually try to integrate spirituality and science.... and even call spirituality a Science!! >:(
I have tolerated it for more than 17 years from the BBC boards. Some more years will not hurt.
I am not going to change, so get used to it! :)
I don't think lots of people have a problem with you. I think they have a problem with things you post which is an entirely different matter. A prime example of that is actually in your post, calling spirituality a science. Which to me is a nonsense - but maybe that is for another thread.
As to your last comment - if you are not going to change - then you have to accept that some other posters on this board are not going to change either - so get used to that. (Pointless smiley face thingie)
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I haven't seen anything to complain about in your posts. After reading this thread I looked at a few in case I'd missed something. However people have different perspectives.
As for Britain or more precisely the UK, I haven't lived anywhere else,like it here and wouldn't emigrate. Also like being European and would be pleased for that to continue. People who have settled here from other countries are welcome as far as I'm concerned, they make life more interesting.
We don't own the country we are born in, nationalism is stupid to me. Pre-referendum campaigns (UKRAP)stirred nationalsim up which is unpleasant. About time we looked around and realised how lucky we are. Always room for improvement but we can work on that.
Thanks Robinson! I appreciate that! :)
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Actually it was just a link and an extract from the BBC article. There was no need for anyone to get offended or get all uppity about UK vs India and all that.
There is lot that can be discussed on these subjects....but then, people seem to prefer discussions of four letter words and pancakes! ::)
You have not added anything to the "debate" yourself.
HH responded perfectly reasonably to the OP. As there wasn't really anything very surprising in the article and you didn't give any views of your own he asked a simple question - which you took as an affront.
Obviously there are aspects of Brexit and citizenship/residence that can be discussed, but the discussion was mainly in the HoL yesterday and passed back to May and the Commons.
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Lots of people have a problem with me. One, that I am in India, second that I am a Hindu, third that I advocate secular spirituality, fourth I also write significantly about science topics and (horror of horrors!) I actually try to integrate spirituality and science.... and even call spirituality a Science!! >:(
I have tolerated it for more than 17 years from the BBC boards. Some more years will not hurt.
I am not going to change, so get used to it! :)
That wasn't really my point. You suggested it was because you are a foreigner (I think) but I wondered why you thought that rather than it just being about what you post and say. The reply above suggests it is about both what you post and what you are - but what makes you think it is about what you are rather than what you post?
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I haven't seen anything to complain about in your posts. After reading this thread I looked at a few in case I'd missed something. However people have different perspectives.
As for Britain or more precisely the UK, I haven't lived anywhere else,like it here and wouldn't emigrate. Also like being European and would be pleased for that to continue. People who have settled here from other countries are welcome as far as I'm concerned, they make life more interesting.
We don't own the country we are born in, nationalism is stupid to me. Pre-referendum campaigns (UKRAP)stirred nationalsim up which is unpleasant. About time we looked around and realised how lucky we are. Always room for improvement but we can work on that.
I think nationalism is important. It is like family pride. It keeps people together and works for their welfare. It does not mean you don't respect other families. In fact once we take pride in our family we respect everyone who does the same. Nationalism is the same.
Allowing others into the country is fine but where do you draw the line?
I think many people get programmed to think in certain ways and are unable to change or 'delete' these ways of thinking at the appropriate time. They just continue thinking the way they thought earlier but which is dysfunctional under changed circumstances.
Sweden seems to have problems now.....and Trump seems to have been right after all!
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/23/europe/sweden-trump-refugees-integration/index.html
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When Donald Trump suggested something was going wrong in Sweden -- long hailed a glowing example for its decision to welcome so many refugees and migrants -- his remarks were met first with confusion, and then with derision.
But after riots broke out here in Rinkeby, a short drive from the center of Stockholm, just days later, one local resident told CNN he thought Trump's comments were "spot on. I think everything he said is true."
he argues, immigration to the country -- and to his neighborhood -- has now gone too far.
"It is out of control. There is a lot of them, there is no place for them," he says. "The real problem is the refugees. They come here and think they can do whatever they want."
"In the cities, you see almost no Swedish people," she explains. "They have moved out, so it's almost all people from different countries, and there are so many people on the streets, begging ... it's so sad; there are so many, and [the government] can't take care of everybody."
"I would describe it as a crisis. I have seen serious problems with law and order," Karlsson tells CNN. "If you don't control the borders, if you have an irresponsible refugee problem, you will get problems. And we have serious problems here."
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Trump was not right, he didn't even understand what he was watching.
Sweden is perfectly capable of handling any problems that arise. Your quote is weird - you have "quote mined" it - to only reflect the point you want to make and deleted everything to the contrary.
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Trump was not right, he didn't even understand what he was watching.
Sweden is perfectly capable of handling any problems that arise. Your quote is weird - you have "quote mined" it - to only reflect the point you want to make and deleted everything to the contrary.
Yes, why miss out bits like the following
'Others remain absolutely convinced that Sweden's immigration policy is something to be proud of.
"I know we have a lot of migrants, but I do not see it as a problem," says student Natalie Lindum, 20, from Stockholm. "Yes, we have a lot of people coming, but it's something I welcome.
"I have a lot of friends' parents who are not from Sweden, but I love that. I love that it's multicultural. They are good people, and I think there is actually less racism in Sweden nowadays."
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It was in the BBC news site. So it was topical enough I should think. If people have nothing to comment...they shouldn't!
I actually agree with you Sriram.
ippy
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I think in common with most leavers I thought we have been clear about cutting our ties with europe whilst wishing to remain on good terms with our neighbours
Well we blew that. All our neighbours hate us.
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Well we blew that. All our neighbours hate us.
And we've made quite a few of our neighbours who have settled here frightened for their futures. Frankly we deserve to be hated.
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Well we blew that. All our neighbours hate us.
Looks like this is a subject we're not very likely to have any common ground J P or you Rhi, we'll not agree anytime soon.
There are quite a few out there in Europe that share views in common with us, the winning side of our U K referendum.
Maybe we should buy and man up a serious number of Citron Avanti cars along with a job lot of long leather coats with matching Fedora hats and send them out hunting for foreigners?
ippy
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If we did cut our ties with Europe, the British economy would go into meltdown, and in fact, probably so would the EU. The whole problem is that we can't, and then the issue is of finding solutions to continuing trade. One of the biggest may well be customs practices, since at the moment, driving a lorry from London to Prague is fairly easy, since all the checks can be done electronically, and so I can sail across borders. However, when we are a 'third country', will this still be the case? If we cut ties, no, and every border will require document checks, load checks, checks on the driver - a complete nightmare. If we preserve certain ties, so as to facilitate movement of goods, then we are half in the single market, and/or the customs union. I suspect that Mrs May will have to use smoke and mirrors to conceal this from the headbangers.
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I actually agree with you Sriram.
ippy
So you see, it isn't very difficult if you try really hard! :)
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ippy -
There are quite a few out there in Europe that share views in common with us, the winning side of our U K referendum.
Who precisely?
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Nice people like Le Pen.
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So you see, it isn't very difficult if you try really hard! :)
Sorry no effort deployed on my part, other than operating this keyboard.
ippy
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ippy -
There are quite a few out there in Europe that share views in common with us, the winning side of our U K referendum.
Who precisely?
Just keep up to date with the news etc, there's no need for me to spell it out.
ippy
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If we did cut our ties with Europe, the British economy would go into meltdown, and in fact, probably so would the EU. The whole problem is that we can't, and then the issue is of finding solutions to continuing trade. One of the biggest may well be customs practices, since at the moment, driving a lorry from London to Prague is fairly easy, since all the checks can be done electronically, and so I can sail across borders. However, when we are a 'third country', will this still be the case? If we cut ties, no, and every border will require document checks, load checks, checks on the driver - a complete nightmare. If we preserve certain ties, so as to facilitate movement of goods, then we are half in the single market, and/or the customs union. I suspect that Mrs May will have to use smoke and mirrors to conceal this from the headbangers.
You think Europe wont want to trade with us? If that's not that's not the case it's how I'm reading your post, I'm not as pessimistic as you and I don't hate the continental Europeans either.
As for immigration, if we have a shortage of saddle makers bottom knockers, let's let a number of people that follow that trade come hear to live and practice their trade in a similar way to the Ausie points system, whatever the trade profession or job concerned happens to be.
If you're happy with Brussels governing the U K to the extent it has, well we're never going to see eye to eye on that one.
The paperwork at the boarders has to be sorted, yes, but I don't see it as so unsurmountable as you do, the thing is it has to be sorted, we are parting with the EU so let's get on with it without wasting so much time moaning.
ippy
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You think Europe wont want to trade with us? If that's not that's not the case it's how I'm reading your post, I'm not as pessimistic as you and I don't hate the continental Europeans either.
As for immigration, if we have a shortage of saddle makers bottom knockers, let's let a number of people that follow that trade come hear to live and practice their trade in a similar way to the Ausie points system, whatever the trade profession or job concerned happens to be.
If you're happy with Brussels governing the U K to the extent it has, well we're never going to see eye to eye on that one.
The paperwork at the boarders has to be sorted, yes, but I don't see it as so unsurmountable as you do, the thing is it has to be sorted, we are parting with the EU so let's get on with it without wasting so much time moaning.
ippy
You were talking about cutting our ties with Europe, and I'm just pointing out that we can't do that. I don't think that documentation and regulations are unsurmountable problems at all, but the problem for hard Brexiteers is that they require considerable cooperation with the EU. If I want to export cheese to an EU country, I can't just load up a lorry with ten tons of it, and drive to Calais. Well, at the moment, I can. But after Brexit, I have to make sure that the cheese conforms to EU regulations, that the lorry also does, and the driver. At the moment, all that is done electronically, since we share the same regs, in other words, harmonisation. But after Brexit? The queues from Turkey into the EU can stretch several kilometres on the road, and we have the bottleneck of Dover.
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You were talking about cutting our ties with Europe, and I'm just pointing out that we can't do that. I don't think that documentation and regulations are unsurmountable problems at all, but the problem for hard Brexiteers is that they require considerable cooperation with the EU. If I want to export cheese to an EU country, I can't just load up a lorry with ten tons of it, and drive to Calais. Well, at the moment, I can. But after Brexit, I have to make sure that the cheese conforms to EU regulations, that the lorry also does, and the driver. At the moment, all that is done electronically, since we share the same regs, in other words, harmonisation. But after Brexit? The queues from Turkey into the EU can stretch several kilometres on the road, and we have the bottleneck of Dover.
I was talking about more or less the things I expressed in post 29 of mine, I like most of us that voted out are not looking to go to war with Europe, why wouldn't we want to cooperate with Europe, in anything other than being a part of their club, who's saying it's going to be easy, don't look in my direction, it wasn't me.
ippy
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It's as easy or as difficult as the British government makes it. If they go for hard Brexit, it will probably be difficult, as we won't have harmonised regulations with the EU. On the other hand, if they do accept a degree of harmonisation, the headbangers on the right wing will say it's not Brexit. I suspect that Mrs May will do a dance of the seven veils, that is, a kind of customs union, but not with that name.
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Looks like this is a subject we're not very likely to have any common ground J P or you Rhi, we'll not agree anytime soon.
There are quite a few out there in Europe that share views in common with us, the winning side of our U K referendum.
Maybe we should buy and man up a serious number of Citron Avanti cars along with a job lot of long leather coats with matching Fedora hats and send them out hunting for foreigners?
ippy
Hello again Ippy.
I hold a British Passport.
My wife holds a Romanian Passport
Our kids hold British Passports (so fuck Ukip/BNP)
Now do you understand why this is not a laughing matter?
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Hello again Ippy.
I hold a British Passport.
My wife holds a Romanian Passport
Our kids hold British Passports (so fuck Ukip/BNP)
Now do you understand why this is not a laughing matter?
I don't see it as a laughing matter either, as long as we do leave the EU and people like yourself are treated fairly it's not so problematical to me, the thing is we are leaving let's get on with it, get it all settled.
ippy
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Fair? Like this?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years
I can see why families like Humph's are concerned. I have no faith that this won't happen to EU nationals who have married British citizens too, let alone EU families who have made the UK their home.
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Hello again Ippy.
I hold a British Passport.
My wife holds a Romanian Passport
Our kids hold British Passports (so fuck Ukip/BNP)
Now do you understand why this is not a laughing matter?
Indeed it is no laughing matter, HWB. It is no laughing matter for the person who wrote this blog either.
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/english-expat-germany-brexit
I can only hope that both the EU and the UK don't try to use people such as your wife and the person writing this blog as bargaining chips. That, in my eyes, would be totally wrong. Assurances need to be given, legal assurances if need be, by both the EU and the UK that those who have chosen to reside within the EU outside of their EU country of origin, have the right to stay there.
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Fair? Like this?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years
I can see why families like Humph's are concerned. I have no faith that this won't happen to EU nationals who have married British citizens too, let alone EU families who have made the UK their home.
I dare say you could find more cases like this if you look hard enough, of course it's wrong and needs to be sorted, the odd few cases like this are bound to happen, it doesn'make these things fair or right nor is it a bonafied reason to overturn the referendum result.
ippy
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I didn't need to look, Ippy, it's headline news.
I agree it's no reason to overturn the referendum result - its too late for that. It's a shabby reflection on this country though and in all likelihood a taste of what the Brexiters have voted in.
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So..you folks did find something to argue about on this thread after all! Great! ;)
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Fair? Like this?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years
I can see why families like Humph's are concerned. I have no faith that this won't happen to EU nationals who have married British citizens too, let alone EU families who have made the UK their home.
I think that the lady in question was singled out for harsh treatment as part of a quota. The Home Office do I understand have a "One in Ten" policy whereby one passport application in ten gets the full checks, the other nine receive just routine checks.
It was a nasty thing to do, what disconcerts me the most is that some seem to revel in it. It's not as if she was doing any harm.
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Lots of people have a problem with me. One, that I am in India, second that I am a Hindu, third that I advocate secular spirituality, fourth I also write significantly about science topics and (horror of horrors!) I actually try to integrate spirituality and science.... and even call spirituality a Science!! >:(
I have tolerated it for more than 17 years from the BBC boards. Some more years will not hurt.
I am not going to change, so get used to it! :)
🙂💐
You bring a different perspective to the forum
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Fair? Like this?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/grandmother-deported-from-uk-despite-being-married-to-briton-for-27-years
I can see why families like Humph's are concerned. I have no faith that this won't happen to EU nationals who have married British citizens too, let alone EU families who have made the UK their home.
It's not relevant, the woman came from Singapore not the EU. Singapore is not in the EU,Brexit has no bearing on this at all.
No, it's not fair but it's irrelevant.
It's just scaremongering.
The woman was deported under rules for outside the EU.
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Hello again Ippy.
I hold a British Passport.
My wife holds a Romanian Passport
Our kids hold British Passports (so fuck Ukip/BNP)
Now do you understand why this is not a laughing matter?
Can your wife apply for a British passport?
https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen/if-your-spouse-is-a-british-citizen
Then you would all hold a British passport.
It might address some concerns.
🙂
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I didn't need to look, Ippy, it's headline news.
I agree it's no reason to overturn the referendum result - its too late for that. It's a shabby reflection on this country though and in all likelihood a taste of what the Brexiters have voted in.
We obviously don't agree about the brilliant result of the referendum and that's not likely to change, going by the tone of your reply.
Incidentally I voted against in the original entry into then EEC referendum too, the one when Wilson was the PM.
I didn't get any other chance to vote for any of the sly creeping measures that drew us further and further into the now EU.
ippy
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It's not relevant, the woman came from Singapore not the EU. Singapore is not in the EU,Brexit has no bearing on this at all.
No, it's not fair but it's irrelevant.
It's just scaremongering.
The woman was deported under rules for outside the EU.
Of course. We don't have the right to deport EU citizens.
It is relevant because we could decide to apply the same rules to EU citizens post Brexit. As yet we have no idea what rights of residency they will be offered but plenty who have voted for Brexit believe it means mass deportation. This and other cases like it could well be illustrating what the future will be like post Brexit for people who settled here and created a family believing that they could do so indefinitely.
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We obviously don't agree about the brilliant result of the referendum and that's not likely to change, going by the tone of your reply.
Incidentally I voted against in the original entry into then EEC referendum too, the one when Wilson was the PM.
I didn't get any other chance to vote for any of the sly creeping measures that drew us further and further into the now EU.
ippy
Some twenty years ago I was a Green Party activist back in the day when it was anti EU and especially anti Euro. What has happened since then though means the genie is too far out of the bottle for it to be put back in without being hugely destructive. It's a different world to how it was then, let alone in the 70's.
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Can your wife apply for a British passport?
https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen/if-your-spouse-is-a-british-citizen
Then you would all hold a British passport.
It might address some concerns.
🙂
My wife does not apply for a UK passport for the same reason that I did not apply for an American Passport.
I lived in the USA for seven years. But I was and am an Englishman (not British).
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Some twenty years ago I was a Green Party activist back in the day when it was anti EU and especially anti Euro. What has happened since then though means the genie is too far out of the bottle for it to be put back in without being hugely destructive. It's a different world to how it was then, let alone in the 70's.
Absolutely correct. We are talking about PEOPLE now, not just, maps, or flags.
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Some twenty years ago I was a Green Party activist back in the day when it was anti EU and especially anti Euro. What has happened since then though means the genie is too far out of the bottle for it to be put back in without being hugely destructive. It's a different world to how it was then, let alone in the 70's.
We're not going to agree on this one Rhi, we are on our way out suits me, obviously not you and I doubt it'll be all sweetness and light negotiations but I think it's for the best in the long run, you don't, we'll see.
ippy
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OK. So, suppose the worst of the worst were to happen and we left without a deal on the exit, let alone a trade deal.
Would the 27 all demand that UK nationals leave their countries? Seems unlikely. Even if they did, would the UK force all remaining EU citizens to leave the UK? There is uncertainty and fear but basic national and international law and human rights must still apply.
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OK. So, suppose the worst of the worst were to happen and we left without a deal on the exit, let alone a trade deal.
Would the 27 all demand that UK nationals leave their countries? Seems unlikely. Even if they did, would the UK force all remaining EU citizens to leave the UK? There is uncertainty and fear but basic national and international law and human rights must still apply.
You'd think so, but the lady from Singapore has been deported in spite of being married to a Brit, having British kids and having lived here for decades. Her right to a family life doesn't count and I fail to see why her case isn't going to be replicated post Brexit. Maybe the Government will extend rights of residency to all EU nationals who have arrived here before a certain date as an act of goodwill - they would be well advised to do so - but that isn't what a lot of Brexiters voted for and there is no compunction on the Government to do so.
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Yes, that is a worrying case. It sounds as if she has been denied a fair hearing and rights by stealth, by organisations attempting to fill quotas.
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You'd think so, but the lady from Singapore has been deported in spite of being married to a Brit, having British kids and having lived here for decades. Her right to a family life doesn't count and I fail to see why her case isn't going to be replicated post Brexit. Maybe the Government will extend rights of residency to all EU nationals who have arrived here before a certain date as an act of goodwill - they would be well advised to do so - but that isn't what a lot of Brexiters voted for and there is no compunction on the Government to do so.
I know a lot of leavers and none of us are looking for any kind of vendetta against these people, on the immigration side of leaving the EU all we want is control of the numbers coming here to the U K, i. e. nothing to do with where they come from or what shade of the Dulux colour chart they represent and after that lot, do they have the skills we need, it's not that complicated, the application may well be so.
It's surprisingly hard to convey the above to lots of people, there's a large number that don't seem to be able to take it in.
ippy
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It's not relevant, the woman came from Singapore not the EU. Singapore is not in the EU,Brexit has no bearing on this at all.
No, it's not fair but it's irrelevant.
It's just scaremongering.
The woman was deported under rules for outside the EU.
It's relevant because our rules for non EU citizens will apply to EU citizens too, once Brexit has gone through.
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I know a lot of leavers and none of us are looking for any kind of vendetta against these people, on the immigration side of leaving the EU all we want is control of the numbers coming here to the U K
I see, it's fine that there are EU citizens in the UK, as long as you have the right to deny them from being in the UK even though that sort of thing leads to difficult cases like the woman from Singapore.
The real shame of this apart from the inhumanity is that immigration is actually good for the country and, in the scheme of our relations with other EU states is a relatively trivial issue, but we have allowed it to hijack our political life.
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It's relevant because our rules for non EU citizens will apply to EU citizens too, once Brexit has gone through.
Hadn't thought of that, you're right; I wouldn't want anything too harsh visited on any immigrant here or in the E U even though I still want to see a considerable reduction of the numbers of immigrants coming here to live.
ippy
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I still want to see a considerable reduction of the numbers of immigrants coming here to live.
I think you'll get your wish: once the full force of Brexit thrusts the country into recession, more people will want to leave here than come in. If I was twenty years younger I'd be one of them. The Brexit vote has shown me that the country I loved is mean spirited, inward looking and lacks any kind of greater vision for the future.
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I think you'll get your wish: once the full force of Brexit thrusts the country into recession, more people will want to leave here than come in. If I was twenty years younger I'd be one of them. The Brexit vote has shown me that the country I loved is mean spirited, inward looking and lacks any kind of greater vision for the future.
Some of the headbangers actually seem to feel OK about shrinking the economy, as long as immigration is reduced. It's not just about being mean-spirited, but also poorer.
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Some of the headbangers actually seem to feel OK about shrinking the economy, as long as immigration is reduced. It's not just about being mean-spirited, but also poorer.
Had the shoe been on the other foot and we had lost the vote I would have been a bad looser too.
ippy
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Had the shoe been on the other foot and we had lost the vote I would have been a bad looser too.
ippy
Well, that's one way of dodging the arguments.
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Well, that's one way of dodging the arguments.
We're not going to agree so what's the point, anyway these arguments were argued out at length in the run up to the referendum and we are now leaving, I doubt we'd agree right up to doomsday.
I meant what I said in that previous post, visa versa with the result I would have been out on the streets etc. and it would have been a long time before I gave it up, I feel it just as strongly as you do, only in the opposite way.
We're not a nation known for throwing in the towel just because something is difficult, I feel relieved and optimistic about our national future, sorry you don't feel the same.
ippy
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We're not a nation known for throwing in the towel just because something is difficult
Yes we are. That is exactly what we have just done with respect to the EU.
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Yes we are. That is exactly what we have just done with respect to the EU.
No we haven't, we've been in it since the 1970's, people were unhappy with the effect of it.
We didn't just chuck in the towel.
People had had enough.
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No we haven't, we've been in it since the 1970's, people were unhappy with the effect of it.
And what effect was this, precisely?
We didn't just chuck in the towel.
People had had enough.
Enough of what?
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And what effect was this, precisely?
Enough of what?
Ask them.
I voted remain.
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I think there is more to this story than we are being told.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4190826/Grandmother-married-Briton-27-years-deported.html
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She was deported because she was out of the country for over two years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39099574
This has been going on for years her applying and being rejected, long before the brexit referendum was thought of.
Not many spouses leave their partner for that length of time, even to look after parents.
Two years is a long time.
That's what the issue was, and seems to be why she was deported.
No reason to think it would effect anyone from Europe ( or anywhere else in the world for that matter) because it seems to have been because she left her husband and children for a long period of time.
Hardly an example of post brexit vote victimisation, and the shape of things to come.
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Rose
You wrote:
No we haven't, we've been in it since the 1970's, people were unhappy with the effect of it. What effect? What do you mean by this?
I voted remain and I talked to a number of people who voted to leave. What was clear to me is that the two chief reasons for voting leave were:
(a) "the country is swamped with foreigners claiming welfare benefits"
and
(b) "we don't rule ourselves any more".
In most instances, further attempts to elicit information produced no concrete examples, merely hearsay or even statements like "well, Nigel Farage says so ..." I might add that the same people liked going abroad for their holidays and bringing back as much "duty free" as they wanted.
I agree with jeremyp, the overall impression is that we (or the Conservative government) have thrown in the towel. Mrs May's approach to all this seems somewhat Panglossian.
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Yes we are. That is exactly what we have just done with respect to the EU.
In your opinion.
ippy
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Best comedy line of the week. Millions were promised to the NHS, instead of paying the EU. But now the chancellor is saving up billions, to deal with the 'uncertainties caused by Brexit'. Come on, you have to laugh.