Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on March 02, 2017, 10:38:13 AM
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Hi everyone,
I suggested someone start a thread on India because some people were dying to say something about it.
They didn't, so I decided I'll start one myself.
India is a large country, a subcontinent, with a population of 1.3 billion of which 1 billion are Hindus, 180 million are Muslims and the rest Christians, Jains, Sikhs etc.
It has a 5000 year history starting off with the Indus Valley Civilization. Has a very rich philosophy of Samkhya, Vedanta, Yoga besides their off shoots of Jainism and Buddhism.
We have 29 states with several languages and many more dialects. We have a rich cuisine with hundreds of varieties from different regions (not just Curry as Britishers think).
We are particularly known for Gandhi and non-violent protests, vegetarianism and Spirituality.
Just after Independence, we had a population of about 300 million people about 90% of whom were uneducated and very poor. Today our population is 1.3 billion, with about 40% being uneducated and poor. But the process of moving forward has now gained momentum and we expect that in the next 2 decades these 500 million people will also come into the mainstream.
From a very poor country a few decades ago, India is today the fastest growing nation in the world with a growth of about 7.4 % . In terms of GDP (PPP) India is the third largest economy in the world after the US and China.
Indians are today very successful everywhere in the world, usually prominent in the IT and financial sectors.
India has been a little slow in its growth compared to China largely because of its democratic (chaotic) processes. But we have managed all the same.
Gosh!! I love India and am very proud of it! I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in the world.
Well...That's it!
Now you guys can start off with the poverty, slums, corruption, rape, caste and perhaps even Sati.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Well I'm not going to knock India.
I have visited India 4 times and spent some 6 months there in 85-6 and I love the place and it's people. (not all of them obviously - I don't like all of them anywhere!) but I found the people friendly and welcoming if a little too fond of touching my very blond (at the time) hair.
It has it's problems as you allude to - but it is pointless to measure my own country against other countries as you are always looking at an almost infinite number of baselines in terms of economic, historical and social factors; which are impossible to compare.
Celebrate the difference is my motto why on earth would I want to visit a country exactly the same as my own?
Not, I might add, that there is anything more wrong with the UK than anywhere else in the world - and in fact a lot of things actually more right with it - but I like to see different places.
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Don't know why you think people here are anti-India, Sriram.
I'd love to visit and everyone I know who has been there have found the experience interesting: there are differences of course, and some things may be challenging from the perspective of a visitor - but the same applies everywhere: I certainly found some aspects of the USA subjectively challenging (the fixation with guns, their almost child-like take on religion, what passes for 'comedy', some of their sport etc).
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Gosh!! I love India and am very proud of it! I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in the world.
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Doesn't everyone? There is programme on TV here, "The Real Marigold Hotel" following up in the idea from the film....
It does show the best aspects, and may well encourage groups of wrinklies taking up residence in Kerala, taking advantage of low cost of living and good healthcare :)
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India is wonderful. Agree with every word Trantvoyager said.
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Hi everyone,
I suggested someone start a thread on India because some people were dying to say something about it.
They didn't, so I decided I'll start one myself.
India is a large country, a subcontinent, with a population of 1.3 billion of which 1 billion are Hindus, 180 million are Muslims and the rest Christians, Jains, Sikhs etc.
It has a 5000 year history starting off with the India Valley Civilization. Has a very rich philosophy of Samkhya, Vedanta, Yoga besides their off shoots of Jainism and Buddhism.
We have 29 states with several languages and many more dialects. We have a rich cuisine with hundreds of varieties from different regions (not just Curry as Britishers think).
We are particularly known for Gandhi and non-violent protests, vegetarianism and Spirituality.
Just after Independence, we had a population of about 300 million people about 90% of whom were uneducated and very poor. Today our population is 1.3 billion, with about 40% being uneducated and poor. But the process of moving forward has now gained momentum and we expect that in the next 2 decades these 500 million people will also come into the mainstream.
From a very poor country a few decades ago, India is today the fastest growing nation in the world with a growth of about 7.4 % . In terms of GDP (PPP) India is the third largest economy in the world after the US and China.
Indians are today very successful everywhere in the world, usually prominent in the IT and financial sectors.
India has been a little slow in its growth compared to China largely because of its democratic (chaotic) processes. But we have managed all the same.
Gosh!! I love India and am very proud of it! I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in the world.
Well...That's it!
Now you guys can start off with the poverty, slums, corruption, rape, caste and perhaps even Sati.
Cheers.
Sriram
My father was stationed in India during World War II but I have no personal knowledge or experience of India so won't pass comment.
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Well, I've been to parts of India and Nepal a couple of times. Enjoyed both visits immensely. Fascinating countries, both.
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My father was stationed in India during World War II but I have no personal knowledge or experience of India so won't pass comment.
I'd suggest that you have to vist :)
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It's so vast, where to start? If you go once, you want to go back.
Madras (Chennai now), is nice.
My friend comes from Goa, she and family have bought place there for holidays so their English children can appreciate some oftheir heritage.
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It's so vast, where to start? If you go once, you want to go back.
Madras (Chennai now), is nice.
My friend comes from Goa, she and family have bought place there for holidays so their English children can appreciate some oftheir heritage.
Where to start indeed!
Goa is in some ways atypical of India - nevertheless wonderful to visit and endlessly surprising.
My favourite memory was of an old hill station in the South, Kodaikanal. We rented a little hut there for a week which looked out over a valley and distant hills, and in the early morning you looked out above the clouds and early mist. Magical.
Kolkata (Calcutta) for all its overcrowding and noise is one of the most fascinating cities I have ever visited.
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I'd suggest that you have to vist :)
Maybe one day.
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I've been four times. Twice through work to Bangalore and Chennai, twice holiday, Rajasthan touring, and Goa. I'm back to Goa at Christmas. It is a fascinating diverse place that I've lived. Given the size and population, it is hugely complex and filled with contrasts and contradictions.
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Been several times, having family and property in Goa, complete with well and cobras in the compound; just love travelling in India, Nepal too. Life in the West always seems sterile and lacking in humanity when I come back.
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My best friend when I was growing up was a Hindu, born in Uganda but of Indian descent. She was an amazing friend and her family welcomed me with open arms. Every Christmas her dad would buy my parents a bottle of advocaat for Christmas. I was invited to weddings, birthdays, parties, and celebrations. My experience of Indian culture is almost solely through the family who invited me in so warmly and shared their lives and practices with me. One thing I took from it and replicated in my own spirituality is having an altar in the home. Sadly my friend's dad died in tragic circumstances and she moved abroad suddenly, and we are no longer in touch, although the last I heard she was well and happy with her own family now. I still hold a huge amount of love for her and the vibrancy of the life she shared with me, even if it was just for a few years.
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Thanks everyone for your comments. Its nice to know that so many of you have actually visited India some time or the other.
Of course it is messy, over crowded, chaotic, bad roads and stuff. But we are trying hard to make it better. Things are more promising now under Modi, than before.
We are still a largely spiritual minded society...and most youngsters even today are into spiritual practices while working on their engineering, science or IT or finance or whatever. We are still a very family minded society and in most cases two to three generations live under one roof (even in very wealthy families).
Cheers.
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Short but interesting piece, on earlier today on Radio 4, on the passing of India's disability law in 1995.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08g7w70
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Sriram bhaiya,
you well know of my continuing relationship with India & Indians, I'm in Varanasi at the mo.
Nick
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Thanks everyone for your comments. Its nice to know that so many of you have actually visited India some time or the other.
Of course it is messy, over crowded, chaotic, bad roads and stuff. But we are trying hard to make it better. Things are more promising now under Modi, than before.
We are still a largely spiritual minded society...and most youngsters even today are into spiritual practices while working on their engineering, science or IT or finance or whatever. We are still a very family minded society and in most cases two to three generations live under one roof (even in very wealthy families).
Cheers.
Don't worry too much about the superstitional/spiritual aspect of India as the educational standard rises along with being more wealthy that'll gradually drop off of the menu just as it has here in Europe.
I suppose your enlightenment should be arriving anytime soon, that'll help.
ippy
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Sriram bhaiya,
you well know of my continuing relationship with India & Indians, I'm in Varanasi at the mo.
Nick
Great, Nick! I will be visiting Varanasi too sometime next month. Have a great time. :)
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Don't worry too much about the superstitional/spiritual aspect of India as the educational standard rises along with being more wealthy that'll gradually drop off of the menu just as it has here in Europe.
I suppose your enlightenment should be arriving anytime soon, that'll help.
ippy
Enlightenment is ...knowing that the world is too complex to be pinned down by some science guys. That is what Indians of all generations and all levels of education have realized. :)
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I like the spiritual atmosphere of India and don't agree with Ippy that it will decline with more education.There has been a lot of education in India for aeons which has not caused any decline in that area. India would not be India without the spiritual aspect! It's very attractive. No-one is forced to like it, they don't have to go there! However you will find much spirituality amongst British Indians living in UK of whom I know and have worked with a lot and it is an integral part of their lives. I find it beautiful.
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I like the spiritual atmosphere of India and don't agree with Ippy that it will decline with more education.There has been a lot of education in India for aeons which has not caused any decline in that area. India would not be India without the spiritual aspect! It's very attractive. No-one is forced to like it, they don't have to go there! However you will find much spirituality amongst British Indians living in UK of whom I know and have worked with a lot and it is an integral part of their lives. I find it beautiful.
Thanks Robinson. You are right that spirituality is an integral part of being Indian and has nothing to do with education, wealth, knowledge of science. liberal views, lifestyle etc. Independent of all this, spirituality blooms. And there are many who are like that in all countries.
People wrongly associate spirituality with religion, rituals, deities, temples etc. These are the means to spiritual growth adopted by many people. Not everyone.
Spirituality is not about supernatural things out there. It is about the inner core of our personality that drives our lives. It is about developing our own higher faculties while eliminating our base tendencies. As simple as that!
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I like the spiritual atmosphere of India and don't agree with Ippy that it will decline with more education.There has been a lot of education in India for aeons which has not caused any decline in that area. India would not be India without the spiritual aspect! It's very attractive. No-one is forced to like it, they don't have to go there! However you will find much spirituality amongst British Indians living in UK of whom I know and have worked with a lot and it is an integral part of their lives. I find it beautiful.
Many westerners find the natural plurality and diversity of a polytheist society a welcome thing when visiting the East. Atheism has become a big thing in the West and maybe that is in part funded by distaste of the divisiveness and intolerance of monotheist religion. The claim that there is just one god creates a binary dividing line between believers and non-believers with little room to accommodate shades in between. Maybe atheism is in part driven by the intolerance of intolerance.
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Many westerners find the natural plurality and diversity of a polytheist society a welcome thing when visiting the East. Atheism has become a big thing in the West and maybe that is in part funded by distaste of the divisiveness and intolerance of monotheist religion. The claim that there is just one god creates a binary dividing line between believers and non-believers with little room to accommodate shades in between. Maybe atheism is in part driven by the intolerance of intolerance.
I'm going to go flying off topic here now but is Christianity really monotheistic? It seems to me (not east because of many years spent on that side of the fence) that Christians believe in a diverse range of beings that they all think of as 'God" but that behaves in different ways according to the beliefs of the individual. I know some Anglicans who believe that God is very much into the preservation of historic buildings and interior design.
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I'm going to go flying off topic here now but is Christianity really monotheistic? It seems to me (not east because of many years spent on that side of the fence) that Christians believe in a diverse range of beings that they all think of as 'God" but that behaves in different ways according to the beliefs of the individual. I know some Anglicans who believe that God is very much into the preservation of historic buildings and interior design.
I take that point, and to my mind, it evidences the underlying truth that humans are not naturally monotheists, rather it is a cultural imposition under which the inherent diversity of human mind tries to express itself.
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Enlightenment is ...knowing that the world is too complex to be pinned down by some science guys. That is what Indians of all generations and all levels of education have realized. :)
We all came out of Africa and are basicly the same, it's the cultures that differ, none of us can put aside the onslaught of knowledge or should want to do so; what logical/rational reasons account for the large decline in superstitious beliefs in Europe and other than cultural reasons how is the, more loosly termed, eastern world going to avoid these benafits of western rationale.
It's one world Sriram and we're all in it together, don't forget depending on how far back you go we're all related to each other.
ippy
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We all came out of Africa and are basicly the same, it's the cultures that differ, none of us can put aside the onslaught of knowledge or should want to do so; what logical/rational reasons account for the large decline in superstitious beliefs in Europe and other than cultural reasons how is the, more loosly termed, eastern world going to avoid these benafits of western rationale.
It's one world Sriram and we're all in it together, don't forget depending on how far back you go we're all related to each other.
ippy
Yes...I agree. But life, culture and civilization spread around and evolve in funny unpredictable ways.
In earlier times, invasions largely determined cultural movement and development. Today global travel and communication determine cultural movement and evolution.
Rational thinking has developed in one place and spirituality has developed in another. They both are now meeting and a new cultural mix is inevitable. It is not however necessary that the spiritual aspect will be eradicated and the rational one will prevail. Maybe it will be the other way around...or maybe different types of hybrids will arise.
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I haven't been to India, but one day I'd like to visit.
Festival of colour sounds a lot of fun, if a bit messy ;)
http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/03/when-is-holi-festival-of-colours-hindu-festival-is-all-about-celebrating-spring-6486326/
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Yes...I agree. But life, culture and civilization spread around and evolve in funny unpredictable ways.
In earlier times, invasions largely determined cultural movement and development. Today global travel and communication determine cultural movement and evolution.
Rational thinking has developed in one place and spirituality has developed in another. They both are now meeting and a new cultural mix is inevitable. It is not however necessary that the spiritual aspect will be eradicated and the rational one will prevail. Maybe it will be the other way around...or maybe different types of hybrids will arise.
"Rational thinking has developed in one place and spirituality has developed in another. They both are now meeting and a new cultural mix is inevitable. It is not however necessary that the spiritual aspect will be eradicated and the rational one will prevail. Maybe it will be the other way around...or maybe different types of hybrids will arise".
Their's no reason why you shouldn't believe that, the only problem with that lot is the lack of evidence or even any way of showing that there's any kind of logical/rational path way that would support this kind of belief; unless, of course, perhaps you can find a way demonstrating as much.
How does anyone eradicate the non existent? Surly it's just not there, non existent?
Beethoven's third piano concerto moves me every time I hear it, I turned the radio on yesterday guess what it was playing, spiritual, Sriram, tell me, why do I need to attribute this rather pleasant feeling to some obscure third party, hopefully you can supply some kind of supportable rationale that would make me change my mind?
By the way thinking is just that, thinking is thinking, I'm not referring to your good self but there are large swathes of your population that for various reasons haven't had the advantage of a good basic education and this would be inclined to disadvantage them so no small wonder they still hold these unsupportable beliefs.
As for rational thinking Vs spirituality by your understanding of that word, I would say rational trumps your form of spirituality every time, due to the fact you are unable to support your version with any verifiable evidence of any kind; "I believe because I believe" doesn't say a lot for your line of thought Sriram.
ippy
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You are treating spirituality as wrong, as a false belief....and rational thinking as the only way to reality. I am treating spirituality and rational thinking as routes to two different realities that need to be eventually bridged.
So...we are not going to agree.
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You are treating spirituality as wrong, as a false belief....and rational thinking as the only way to reality. I am treating spirituality and rational thinking as routes to two different realities that need to be eventually bridged.
There is a way in which rational thinking can test its conclusions (evidence and logic) - how can "spirituality" test its conclusions? Those who claim spiritual insight don't actually agree with one another, so how do we tell who is right...?
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You are treating spirituality as wrong, as a false belief....and rational thinking as the only way to reality. I am treating spirituality and rational thinking as routes to two different realities that need to be eventually bridged.
So...we are not going to agree.
Somewhere else we don't agree, there is nothing around to make me consider anything god like, as described by people like yourself, or your kind of spiritual exists and I'm not claiming knowledge I have no way knowing or being able to verify as true knowledge, if you can sway me with something solid that would settle your case for once and all, I'll join you, if you wish to persuade people like myself you could say you've got a long job in front of you.
I don't see spirituality as wrong or as a false belief, they're just something, an idea obviously conjured up by mankind at some stage or another and nothing more than that, if you want to believe in these sorts of ideas, well that's your choice, as long as you don't to inflict these beliefs on me and mine via laws or special privilege for believers, please fill your boots to your hearts content, that's what secularism's all about Sriram.
ippy
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Somewhere else we don't agree, there is nothing around to make me consider anything god like, as described by people like yourself, or your kind of spiritual exists and I'm not claiming knowledge I have no way knowing or being able to verify as true knowledge, if you can sway me with something solid that would settle your case for once and all, I'll join you, if you wish to persuade people like myself you could say you've got a long job in front of you.
I don't see spirituality as wrong or as a false belief, they're just something, an idea obviously conjured up by mankind at some stage or another and nothing more than that, if you want to believe in these sorts of ideas, well that's your choice, as long as you don't to inflict these beliefs on me and mine via laws or special privilege for believers, please fill your boots to your hearts content, that's what secularism's all about Sriram.
ippy
ippy...It doesn't matter if you don't believe. :) That is just your path of development. You will also get there like everyone else. Maybe in your next birth you will be a Yogi living in the Himalayas...you never know! ;)
Making someone understand is very difficult. Taking the simple instance of the moon landing deniers. How can you possibly convince them that people have actually landed on the moon? Anything you argue or show them could be mocked and dismissed. That is the way their mind is programmed and that will not change easily.
Similarly, if someone does not believe that there is anything beyond the mundane realities of the body, earth and so on, there is nothing anyone can do to convince them that there is something. All philosophy and detailed spiritual teachings are for those who accept them in the first place.
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ippy...It doesn't matter if you don't believe. :) That is just your path of development. You will also get there like everyone else. Maybe in your next birth you will be a Yogi living in the Himalayas...you never know! ;)
Making someone understand is very difficult. Taking the simple instance of the moon landing deniers. How can you possibly convince them that people have actually landed on the moon? Anything you argue or show them could be mocked and dismissed. That is the way their mind is programmed and that will not change easily.
Similarly, if someone does not believe that there is anything beyond the mundane realities of the body, earth and so on, there is nothing anyone can do to convince them that there is something. All philosophy and detailed spiritual teachings are for those who accept them in the first place.
"All philosophy and detailed spiritual teachings are for those who accept them in the first place".
Thank goodness I'm not that gullible!
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It doesn't matter if you don't believe. :) That is just your path of development. You will also get there like everyone else. Maybe in your next birth you will be a Yogi living in the Himalayas...you never know! ;)
"I'm not that simple minded", I don't believe in unicorns either for the same reason!
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"Making someone understand is very difficult".
Hardly surprising, the stuff you're coming out with!
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"Maybe in your next birth you will be a Yogi living in the Himalayas...you never know"! ;)
Perhaps if you take a long rest Sriram it might help!
ippy
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Part of the beauty of India is its variety of spirituality.n it is truly wondrous. India would be a far poorer place without it, it surprises me that anyone wants it to fade away when it is integral to the character of the place. Can't imagine a non=spiritual India.
In this country those who come from or parents come from Indian subcontinent celebrate festivals and occasions in spectacular colourful ways which brighten up our lives. Let that not fade. Especially in drab areas it spreads beauty and joy of which we have a dearth.
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Worried about detailing a thread but a quick definition of what people mean by spirituality would be useful by those using the term?
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Worried about detailing a thread but a quick definition of what people mean by spirituality would be useful by those using the term?
Why don't you do so then N S, I'd have thought you're the right man for the job.
ippy
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Worried about detailing a thread but a quick definition of what people mean by spirituality would be useful by those using the term?
googled, couldn't have put it better myself:
"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all."
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googled, couldn't have put it better myself:
"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all."
Other than being recognisable as an English sentence, the above makes as much sense as 'Green ideas sleep furiously'
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It makes sense to me Nearly. (I don't mean it nearly makes sense to me. ;))
There's more to it of course. Here's the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
You say how you would describe spirituality.
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Other than being recognisable as an English sentence, the above makes as much sense as 'Green ideas sleep furiously'
Or "Why is a mouse when it spins?" :D
(Look, I can't help that I was born when I was)
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:) :D
Until I looked at it again i was remembering Nearlysane's comment as something to do with green sheep.
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It makes sense to me Nearly. (I don't mean it nearly makes sense to me. ;))
There's more to it of course. Here's the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
You say how you would describe spirituality.
Why would I describe a term that I don't understand? That it makes sense to you is entirely useless . I could write 'huhggft' means that feeling when tree hunts from sloppy jumps, and say it makes sense to me!
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I get what you mean.
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"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all."
Well this is wrong.
It is not universal. I do not, and have not ever had, a sense of being connected to something bigger than ourselves. Sure I have tried to make sense out of our reason for being here (no conclusion yet - and I doubt I will ever reach one, because in essence I strongly suspect there is no reason) - but I have never made the connection to the idea of something bigger either in the sense of a God/s, or through some kind of spiritual garbage connected to crystals or dolphins or somatic practices or take your pick of any number of strange practices that humans think are spiritual.
Therefore the definition is incorrect as it clearly does not touch us all.
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googled, couldn't have put it better myself:
"Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all."
Not for me it doesn't.
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I've oft repeated on here what spirituality means to me but here goes:
It's the stuff we need to do to look after and nourish ourselves that goes beyond our material, physical needs. It's taking care of our 'spirit' or 'self' or whatever you want to call it, the thing made up of thoughts, memories and feelings that might just be the product of biological processes but that appreciates and creates art, music, good food, love, nature, tattoos etc etc etc.