Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: newnature on March 02, 2017, 02:46:21 PM
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Who in the world are those involved in religion asking for forgiveness? From God! Therefore the assumption is, God’s not reconciled when they sin. In their mind they are separating themselves from God by their sin. Justification...Redemption...Propitiation...Remission...and Forbearance...all terms God wants people to acknowledge, to become familiar with, and to come to fully appreciate. Never make the mistake of thinking that these terms all mean the same thing. They do not. Each one has a distinct meaning all its own. Oftentimes, people will look at these terms and sort of lump them all together under a heading called forgiveness.
To many people are trying to Christianize the flesh. One should never drive the train from emotions, but there are denominations living in the caboose, driving the train from the emotion standpoint, not living it from the doctrinal standpoint. But think about this: Is forgiveness the same thing as being justified or having someone else’s righteousness freely attributed to their account? They are not one and the same. The human race’s sins have all been forgiven, but forgiveness alone does not mean the person having forgiveness is as perfectly and totally righteous as the one who is doing the forgiving.
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Who in the world are those involved in religion asking for forgiveness? From God! Therefore the assumption is, God’s not reconciled when they sin. In their mind they are separating themselves from God by their sin. Justification...Redemption...Propitiation...Remission...and Forbearance...all terms God wants people to acknowledge, to become familiar with, and to come to fully appreciate. Never make the mistake of thinking that these terms all mean the same thing. They do not. Each one has a distinct meaning all its own. Oftentimes, people will look at these terms and sort of lump them all together under a heading called forgiveness.
To many people are trying to Christianize the flesh. One should never drive the train from emotions, but there are denominations living in the caboose, driving the train from the emotion standpoint, not living it from the doctrinal standpoint. But think about this: Is forgiveness the same thing as being justified or having someone else’s righteousness freely attributed to their account? They are not one and the same. The human race’s sins have all been forgiven, but forgiveness alone does not mean the person having forgiveness is as perfectly and totally righteous as the one who is doing the forgiving.
God, if it exists, should be asking forgiveness from humans if the actions attributed to it in the Bible are true! >:(
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Newnature, I found your opening post quite confusing despite reading twice. (No I'm not thick.)
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Newnature, I found your opening post quite confusing despite reading twice. (No I'm not thick.)
I agree, it isn't well expressed.
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God, if it exists, should be asking forgiveness from humans if the actions attributed to it in the Bible are true! >:(
Jesus has purchased the entire human race out from the marketplace of sin’s ability to condemn the sinner ever again. Do you see why sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice in this age of grace? It’s no longer the issue in the judicial mind of God who received the payment. In Romans 3:25-26 we find that our magnificent redemption demanded a monumental price. The cost...was the death...and the shed blood...of God’s only begotten son Jesus, (the second Adam - Genesis 3:15). So justification, believing in what Jesus accomplished is a requirement in order to be justified or declared righteous. Who was it that purchased you, the sinner, out of the market place of sin through his shed blood? Did you pay the price to purchase you out of this issue called sins, or did Jesus pay the price? Look at the receipt shown in 1 Timothy 2:6.
Was God only partially satisfied with the payment Jesus made for sins? Or was God fully satisfied where the payment made by his son for the sins of the world are concerned? When you think of Propitiation, think of payment satisfaction, because propitiation means just that, full satisfaction. Not only did Jesus cry out: “It is finished” from the tree of crucifixion, meaning his death for sins, his payment for sins was being brought to a conclusion, he could make that statement because he had fully accomplished what he had set out to do. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the world Jesus redeemed will accept the Redeemer, or the truth of their redemption for that matter so they can be placed into the Savior, Heaven worthy, at that point. The key word expression in connection with Paul’s teaching on Redemption: It would be delivered through ransom; deliverance through a ransom price, 1 Timothy 2:6.
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I agree, it isn't well expressed.
Flesh wants to say if I broke it I can fix it. God’s not asking us to turn from anything to be saved. God’s asking us to believe Jesus accomplished salvation for us and we’re simply to believe it. Jesus did it all, there’s nothing left for us to do. God did all the giving. We do only all the receiving.
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Wouldn't it have been a good idea to put your OP in the 'Faith Sharing' section where other Christians could comment on it in a shared atmosphere perhaps? After all it seems rather more directed towards other Christians, rather than posters such as me who haven't any belief in any such God, and consequentially the idea of your God's supposed forgiveness is an idea bereft of any significance in a personal sense. Just a thought!
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Wouldn't it have been a good idea to put your OP in the 'Faith Sharing' section where other Christians could comment on it in a shared atmosphere perhaps? After all it seems rather more directed towards other Christians, rather than posters such as me who haven't any belief in any such God, and consequentially the idea of your God's supposed forgiveness is an idea bereft of any significance in a personal sense. Just a thought!
Will people accept what Jesus accomplished or will people reject it? God purchased the human race out of sins dominion never to be returned to the market place of sin again. God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on their sinfulness. Does that mean the entire world is saved? No. A person has to have an individual change of status and that take place when they accept what the son did for them. Throughout the ages, God in his sovereignty, has chosen to recognize as being righteous those who would simply take him at his Word. In Romans 3:24 to be justified is to be recognized as being right. It’s a judicial decree of rightness. God recognizes those who take him at his Word concerning the price Jesus became on the tree of crucifixion on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. A judicial decree of righteousness. It doesn’t go away. It doesn’t abate over time. It’s their’s forever.
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God’s not asking us to turn from anything to be saved. God’s asking us to believe Jesus accomplished salvation for us and we’re simply to believe it. Jesus did it all, there’s nothing left for us to do. God did all the giving. We do only all the receiving.
You seem very confident of all this. How about starting out with some reason why anybody should believe that this "God", of which you speak, even exists - outside of storybooks and human imagination...?
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Will people accept what Jesus accomplished or will people reject it? God purchased the human race out of sins dominion never to be returned to the market place of sin again. God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on their sinfulness. Does that mean the entire world is saved? No. A person has to have an individual change of status and that take place when they accept what the son did for them. Throughout the ages, God in his sovereignty, has chosen to recognize as being righteous those who would simply take him at his Word. In Romans 3:24 to be justified is to be recognized as being right. It’s a judicial decree of rightness. God recognizes those who take him at his Word concerning the price Jesus became on the tree of crucifixion on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. A judicial decree of righteousness. It doesn’t go away. It doesn’t abate over time. It’s their’s forever.
newnature,
Don't be so silly. Your attempt at proselytizing has no effect on me whatever.(shrugs shoulders).
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You seem very confident of all this. How about starting out with some reason why anybody should believe that this "God", of which you speak, even exists - outside of storybooks and human imagination...?
Understanding peace with God comes from understanding the accomplishment of Jesus, but letting the peace of God rule in our hearts is not the same thing as understanding the reality of having peace with God. But, their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s gospel is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. For a person to have to make their own peace with God would be nothing more than an exercise in futility, it could never be done. Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether.
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I understand the grace v works position, that none can deserve forgiveness, only accept Christ who died for everyone's sins - and the change in character for the better follows.
However with no disrespect to you, you took a lot of time expressing that Newnature.
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You seem very confident of all this. How about starting out with some reason why anybody should believe that this "God", of which you speak, even exists - outside of storybooks and human imagination...?
Understanding peace with God comes from understanding the accomplishment of Jesus, but letting the peace of God rule in our hearts is not the same thing as understanding the reality of having peace with God. But, their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s gospel is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. For a person to have to make their own peace with God would be nothing more than an exercise in futility, it could never be done. Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether.
So.... no reason at all then.
::)
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Will people accept what Jesus accomplished or will people reject it? God purchased the human race out of sins dominion never to be returned to the market place of sin again. God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on their sinfulness. Does that mean the entire world is saved? No. A person has to have an individual change of status and that take place when they accept what the son did for them. Throughout the ages, God in his sovereignty, has chosen to recognize as being righteous those who would simply take him at his Word. In Romans 3:24 to be justified is to be recognized as being right. It’s a judicial decree of rightness. God recognizes those who take him at his Word concerning the price Jesus became on the tree of crucifixion on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. A judicial decree of righteousness. It doesn’t go away. It doesn’t abate over time. It’s their’s forever.
This makes no sense.
If there is a God, then he would not create and tolerate a Satan in the first place.
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Flesh wants to say if I broke it I can fix it. God’s not asking us to turn from anything to be saved. God’s asking us to believe Jesus accomplished salvation for us and we’re simply to believe it. Jesus did it all, there’s nothing left for us to do. God did all the giving. We do only all the receiving.
All that is a belief with no evidence to support it. The Bible is not evidence as a it appears to be a very human construction with no input from any god, should one exist.
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newnature,
Don't be so silly. Your attempt at proselytizing has no effect on me whatever.(shrugs shoulders).
What did Jesus say from the tree of crucifixion? It is finished. Meaning paid in full. It’s an accounting term. The sin debt paid in full. Now if the sin debt was paid in full which one is left to come back and haunt you at some point and time? Now all have access to God. Sin is no longer the issue with God. No sin is the issue with God today. Then what is the issue with God today? The son is the issue with God today.
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This makes no sense.
If there is a God, then he would not create and tolerate a Satan in the first place.
Good point, any god which creates evil as well as good is a psycho.
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I understand the grace v works position, that none can deserve forgiveness, only accept Christ who died for everyone's sins - and the change in character for the better follows.
However with no disrespect to you, you took a lot of time expressing that Newnature.
Reconciliation goes far beyond a relationship between two human beings; Paul spoke of a person’s relationship to God in terms of the restoration of the right relationship between a person and God. God’s love is very rare; his love is so paramount that God says he loves humans who are actively his enemies. God reconciles himself to his enemies while they are still in hostility. God’s reconciliation to the human race took place when the human race was actively God’s enemy, not after the human race repented. An enemy is not someone who simply falls short of being a friend; an enemy is on the other side of the fence. An enemy is in absolute opposition and their actions are hateful. It was while the human race was in this state of utter hostility and in direct opposition to God that the human race were reconciled to God by the death of his son.
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Understanding peace with God comes from understanding the accomplishment of Jesus, but letting the peace of God rule in our hearts is not the same thing as understanding the reality of having peace with God. But, their people are under the assumption that their sin debt is separation from God. If an ounce of new reconciliation in this Age of Grace could be restored for anyone when it comes to the issue of their sin debt then the degree of forgiveness that must be obtained in order to restore the reconciliation is the very degree to which that individual refuses to believe that Jesus accomplished it all. Paul’s gospel is hid from those people. They don’t understand what reconciliation is all about. For a person to have to make their own peace with God would be nothing more than an exercise in futility, it could never be done. Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether.
So.... no reason at all then.
::)
The Apostle Paul was commissioned to tell people that God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all the human is concerned; sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice today. How much forgiveness does everyone have according to the Apostle Paul? It has all been forgiven upfront; there is not an ounce of forgiveness to be obtained. The reconciliation that Jesus accomplished for the human race was total, complete, and unalterable, it will always stand. God is reconciled where the entirety the human races sin debt is concerned; there is no sin left on an individual to forgive.
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The Apostle Paul was commissioned to tell people that God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all the human is concerned; sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice today. How much forgiveness does everyone have according to the Apostle Paul? It has all been forgiven upfront; there is not an ounce of forgiveness to be obtained. The reconciliation that Jesus accomplished for the human race was total, complete, and unalterable, it will always stand. God is reconciled where the entirety the human races sin debt is concerned; there is no sin left on an individual to forgive.
Assertion NOT fact!
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All that is a belief with no evidence to support it. The Bible is not evidence as a it appears to be a very human construction with no input from any god, should one exist.
Genesis 3:14-15 - What literal words could portray these literal facts so wonderfully as these expressive figures of speech? It is the same with the other figures used in versus 14, “On thy belly shalt thou go”. This figure means infinitely more than the literal belly of flesh and blood. It paints for the eyes of our mind the picture of Satan’s ultimate humiliation; for prostration was ever the most eloquent sign of subjection. Ps. 44:25 denotes such a prolonged prostration and such a depth of submission as could never be conveyed or expressed in literal words.
What literal words could portray these literal facts so wonderfully as these expressive figures of speech?
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Assertion NOT fact!
Some say they refuse to believe in God, they refuse to believe there was ever a wall in the first place, why? Because to believe there was a wall in the first place is to acknowledge their sin and to acknowledge the presence of a God. They don’t want to retain God in their thinking. Some people think they can go directly to God and they can bypass Jesus. Here again when they do that they are not acknowledging Jesus and the necessity of what Jesus accomplished. Far more subtle, people thinking it’s their responsibility to remove the wall. It’s up to them to remove the wall. A most common response from this group is “I’m, just not ready yet. I’ve given up on this religious stuff”. They think it’s up to them to take the wall down. These people commit. They recommit. They recommit their re-commitment. most often they give up at some point. They fool themselves into thinking they’ve achieved it or they give up because every time they’re sinning again. They’re trying to tear that wall down themselves by their refusal to sin. Since they think salvation is tied to their behavior, they never come to the point of placing their total trust in the fact that Jesus remove this wall forever. So they just shove the whole thing aside. They say they want not part of this religious game.
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So.... no reason at all then.
::)
The Apostle Paul was commissioned to tell people that God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all the human is concerned; sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice today. How much forgiveness does everyone have according to the Apostle Paul? It has all been forgiven upfront; there is not an ounce of forgiveness to be obtained. The reconciliation that Jesus accomplished for the human race was total, complete, and unalterable, it will always stand. God is reconciled where the entirety the human races sin debt is concerned; there is no sin left on an individual to forgive.
And still not a hint of a reason to take this "God" of yours seriously.
Have you thought about sticking pencils up your nose and saying "wibble"? It would be exactly as persuasive as the nonsense you keep posting...
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Some say they refuse to believe in God, they refuse to believe there was ever a wall in the first place, why? Because to believe there was a wall in the first place is to acknowledge their sin and to acknowledge the presence of a God. They don’t want to retain God in their thinking. Some people think they can go directly to God and they can bypass Jesus. Here again when they do that they are not acknowledging Jesus and the necessity of what Jesus accomplished. Far more subtle, people thinking it’s their responsibility to remove the wall. It’s up to them to remove the wall. A most common response from this group is “I’m, just not ready yet. I’ve given up on this religious stuff”. They think it’s up to them to take the wall down. These people commit. They recommit. They recommit their re-commitment. most often they give up at some point. They fool themselves into thinking they’ve achieved it or they give up because every time they’re sinning again. They’re trying to tear that wall down themselves by their refusal to sin. Since they think salvation is tied to their behavior, they never come to the point of placing their total trust in the fact that Jesus remove this wall forever. So they just shove the whole thing aside. They say they want not part of this religious game.
This is as good a fallacy-fest as we've ever had in a single post - so well done you.
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Some say they refuse to believe in God...
Plenty of people see no reason whatsoever to believe in any of the many, many gods (http://www.godchecker.com/) that humans have worshipped but that isn't the same as refusing to believe. How could you refuse to believe something anyway? It makes no sense - you're either persuaded or not - it's not a choice.
...they refuse to believe there was ever a wall in the first place, why? Because to believe there was a wall in the first place is to acknowledge their sin and to acknowledge the presence of a God. They don’t want to retain God in their thinking...
Now you're just babbling nonsense again.
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Umm... I see the deity of the day on godchecker (http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/south-american-mythology.php?deity=KURURUMANY) is KURURUMANY - the South American Creator God, so newnature, are you refusing to believe in him?
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Newnature, you're still taking up much space to expound a simple fundamental doctrine with which all Christians are familiar. I don't understand what you mean when you say it's not about a relationship between two people, we know it is about people and God, specfically Christ's sacrifice.
I agree with the poster above who says this thread would be better placed in Faith Sharing.
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Newnature, I found your opening post quite confusing despite reading twice. (No I'm not thick.)
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Agreed.....the language and jargon are a wee bit archaic.
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Genesis 3:14-15 - What literal words could portray these literal facts so wonderfully as these expressive figures of speech? It is the same with the other figures used in versus 14, “On thy belly shalt thou go”. This figure means infinitely more than the literal belly of flesh and blood. It paints for the eyes of our mind the picture of Satan’s ultimate humiliation; for prostration was ever the most eloquent sign of subjection. Ps. 44:25 denotes such a prolonged prostration and such a depth of submission as could never be conveyed or expressed in literal words.
What literal words could portray these literal facts so wonderfully as these expressive figures of speech?
You are obviously a Biblical literalist, if it floats your boat fine. However as there is no evidence to support any of less than credible scenarios found in the Bible it is more than likely they are fairy stories/myths created by humans. I think humans are the real gods, as there is lack of evidence to support the existence of any others.
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Jesus has purchased the entire human race out from the marketplace of sin’s ability to condemn the sinner ever again. Do you see why sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice in this age of grace? It’s no longer the issue in the judicial mind of God who received the payment. In Romans 3:25-26 we find that our magnificent redemption demanded a monumental price. The cost...was the death...and the shed blood...of God’s only begotten son Jesus, (the second Adam - Genesis 3:15). So justification, believing in what Jesus accomplished is a requirement in order to be justified or declared righteous. Who was it that purchased you, the sinner, out of the market place of sin through his shed blood? Did you pay the price to purchase you out of this issue called sins, or did Jesus pay the price? Look at the receipt shown in 1 Timothy 2:6.
Was God only partially satisfied with the payment Jesus made for sins? Or was God fully satisfied where the payment made by his son for the sins of the world are concerned? When you think of Propitiation, think of payment satisfaction, because propitiation means just that, full satisfaction. Not only did Jesus cry out: “It is finished” from the tree of crucifixion, meaning his death for sins, his payment for sins was being brought to a conclusion, he could make that statement because he had fully accomplished what he had set out to do. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the world Jesus redeemed will accept the Redeemer, or the truth of their redemption for that matter so they can be placed into the Savior, Heaven worthy, at that point. The key word expression in connection with Paul’s teaching on Redemption: It would be delivered through ransom; deliverance through a ransom price, 1 Timothy 2:6.
- Newnature: A gentle reminder; Whilst I understand the jargon and theology speak, it's a bit archaic for 21st century readers. Any chance of making it a bit more readable?
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Will people accept what Jesus accomplished or will people reject it? God purchased the human race out of sins dominion never to be returned to the market place of sin again. God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on their sinfulness. Does that mean the entire world is saved? No. A person has to have an individual change of status and that take place when they accept what the son did for them. Throughout the ages, God in his sovereignty, has chosen to recognize as being righteous those who would simply take him at his Word. In Romans 3:24 to be justified is to be recognized as being right. It’s a judicial decree of rightness. God recognizes those who take him at his Word concerning the price Jesus became on the tree of crucifixion on their behalf to resolve God’s justice for their sins. A judicial decree of righteousness. It doesn’t go away. It doesn’t abate over time. It’s their’s forever.
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Hold the bus!
Do I accept the atonement?
Yep.
Do I understand what you are trying to say?
Yep!
However, the way you're purtting it forward, couched in theology speak, is a bit stilted and unattractive.
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It would appear that New Nature has decided to use this forum as a sort of free blog space since he does not appear to have read comments or questions, let alone responded to them.
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It would appear that New Nature has decided to use this forum as a sort of free blog space since he does not appear to have read comments or questions, let alone responded to them.
You could be right!
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Who in the world are those involved in religion asking for forgiveness? From God! Therefore the assumption is, God’s not reconciled when they sin. In their mind they are separating themselves from God by their sin. Justification...Redemption...Propitiation...Remission...and Forbearance...all terms God wants people to acknowledge, to become familiar with, and to come to fully appreciate. Never make the mistake of thinking that these terms all mean the same thing. They do not. Each one has a distinct meaning all its own. Oftentimes, people will look at these terms and sort of lump them all together under a heading called forgiveness.
To many people are trying to Christianize the flesh. One should never drive the train from emotions, but there are denominations living in the caboose, driving the train from the emotion standpoint, not living it from the doctrinal standpoint. But think about this: Is forgiveness the same thing as being justified or having someone else’s righteousness freely attributed to their account? They are not one and the same. The human race’s sins have all been forgiven, but forgiveness alone does not mean the person having forgiveness is as perfectly and totally righteous as the one who is doing the forgiving.
God is the forgiver... he is perfect without sin.
Christ is the one who saved us the person without sin for the persons with sin.
So the fact is the believer in Christ is the righteousness of God in Christ?
One mans sin brought death. One sinless man paid the penalty death so all are saved.
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It would appear that New Nature has decided to use this forum as a sort of free blog space since he does not appear to have read comments or questions, let alone responded to them.
Because of ministers of righteousness too many people link a justified standing before God with performance of their own, they also link a sanctified standing before God with their own performance. Holiness linked to performance is what religion is all about. Religion thinks of sanctification as becoming a little less sinful or a little less sinful over time. And as a result they believe the degree to which they stand sanctified in God’s eyes depends entirely upon the degree to which they remain holy in behavior. The religiously minded begin to believe they are indeed measuring up as righteousness becomes relative to those people. Oftentimes, their sermons are geared to guilt and so through that guilt teaching, a minister of righteousness in a way which may be subconscious level thinking, or even conscious level thinking in many of their minds, have their thumb on their peoples behavior through the guilt preaching.
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It would appear that New Nature has decided to use this forum as a sort of free blog space since he does not appear to have read comments or questions, let alone responded to them.
There is no more powerful message than that God was using what Jesus’ death accomplished for the sins of the entire world. Reconciliation goes far beyond a relationship between two human beings; Paul spoke of a person’s relationship to God in terms of the restoration of the right relationship between a person and God.
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It would appear that New Nature has decided to use this forum as a sort of free blog space since he does not appear to have read comments or questions, let alone responded to them.
Because of ministers of righteousness too many people link a justified standing before God with performance of their own, they also link a sanctified standing before God with their own performance. Holiness linked to performance is what religion is all about. Religion thinks of sanctification as becoming a little less sinful or a little less sinful over time. And as a result they believe the degree to which they stand sanctified in God’s eyes depends entirely upon the degree to which they remain holy in behavior. The religiously minded begin to believe they are indeed measuring up as righteousness becomes relative to those people. Oftentimes, their sermons are geared to guilt and so through that guilt teaching, a minister of righteousness in a way which may be subconscious level thinking, or even conscious level thinking in many of their minds, have their thumb on their peoples behavior through the guilt preaching.
I think you've just demonstrated Susan's point...
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Because of ministers of righteousness too many people link a justified standing before God with performance of their own, they also link a sanctified standing before God with their own performance. Holiness linked to performance is what religion is all about. Religion thinks of sanctification as becoming a little less sinful or a little less sinful over time. And as a result they believe the degree to which they stand sanctified in God’s eyes depends entirely upon the degree to which they remain holy in behavior. The religiously minded begin to believe they are indeed measuring up as righteousness becomes relative to those people. Oftentimes, their sermons are geared to guilt and so through that guilt teaching, a minister of righteousness in a way which may be subconscious level thinking, or even conscious level thinking in many of their minds, have their thumb on their peoples behavior through the guilt preaching.
I think you've just demonstrated Susan's point...
Insofar as a bot can demonstrate anything!
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It seems that New Nature has also joined IS (International Skeptics) but I doubt if he will remain there for long!
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God is the forgiver... he is perfect without sin.
Christ is the one who saved us the person without sin for the persons with sin.
So the fact is the believer in Christ is the righteousness of God in Christ?
One mans sin brought death. One sinless man paid the penalty death so all are saved.
You obviously haven't read the Bible. The god featured therein is more evil than any human! Jesus was a mere human, long dead with human faults just like us all, you cannot prove otherwise.
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It seems that New Nature has also joined IS (International Skeptics) but I doubt if he will remain there for long!
I had never heard of that forum before. I was about to register on it when I discovered they wanted far too much personal information about members, which I was not prepared to divulge. :o
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Try this
http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
It'll make everything clear
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Splashy,
Try this
http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/
It'll make everything clear
Quite so. It's actually quite hard to work out whether newnature is a real person or a piece of software written to spew out random archaisms but unable to assemble a cogent thought. Either way, he/it seems to want only to proselytise his gibberish so I guess the faith sharing area for those who get something from this stuff (are there such people?) would be the better place for his efforts.
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Having once been on the Xtian side of the fence I have to say nothing NewNature says makes the slightest sense to me.
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I think newnature is trying to tell us that if we believe in the right doctrine, we don't need to 'do' anything else to get saved.
I think.
Although the bible indicates "faith without works is dead"
???
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Splashy,
Quite so. It's actually quite hard to work out whether newnature is a real person or a piece of software written to spew out random archaisms but unable to assemble a cogent thought. Either way, he/it seems to want only to proselytise his gibberish so I guess the faith sharing area for those who get something from this stuff (are there such people?) would be the better place for his efforts.
He does indeed sound like a bot. Hope I believe in the one true faith. Be a shame to get banished to an eternity of hell for simply picking the wrong one. Thing I'll go with the green tree frog deity. Fingers crossed.
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I think newnature is trying to tell us that if we believe in the right doctrine, we don't need to 'do' anything else to get saved.
I think.
Although the bible indicates "faith without works is dead"
???
It does say that but faith is paramount and causes change of heart/attitude resulting in works. We show living faith in that way.That's how I read it.
Hoping Newnature returns and engages in discussion (not holding my breath). NN your posts have been impersonal sof ar.
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As most know, I try to avoid quote mining texts, but this looks good: "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. From Ephesians 2: 8-9, New Living Translation. (NLT) As Robinson pointed out, works - what we do - come as a result of our salvation - our salvation depends on nothing we have done, can do or will do, but on our response to what God has done on the Cross.
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Robinson,
It does say that but faith is paramount and causes change of heart/attitude resulting in works.
Which is precisely why privileging "faith" over just guessing about stuff is so pernicious. When you can convince yourself that your personal faith is a reliable guide to how to act, all manner of behaviours will follow untroubled by reason or evidence that could temper them. The 9/11 hijackers for example were it seems deeply pious men of faith.
We show living faith in that way.That's how I read it.
Sadly some do do that, yes.
Hoping Newnature returns and engages in discussion (not holding my breath). NN your posts have been impersonal sof ar.
He (or it) is a troll - he has no interest in discussing anything.
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Anchs,
As most know, I try to avoid quote mining texts, but this looks good: "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. From Ephesians 2: 8-9, New Living Translation. (NLT) As Robinson pointed out, works - what we do - come as a result of our salvation - our salvation depends on nothing we have done, can do or will do, but on our response to what God has done on the Cross.
Do you not find that a bit circular? "God" will "save" you if you believe, but this same God gets to decide whether or not you do believe, and if you do believe then that means there must be a god to have done the deciding, so...
...and so on round and round we go.
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Whether I find it circular or not is really not the point, BHS. Paul hammers this home in most of the letters to the nascent congregations, many made up of Jewish Christians steeped in the legalism of first century Judaism. That there is nothing we can do to appease God - sacrifices, pennance, out the window, must have come as a revelation to them - an entirely new way of thinking. Grace is a topic which could stretch to a hundred posts. It's amazing. (Sorry......)
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Anchs,
Whether I find it circular or not is really not the point, BHS.
It sort of is if you expect anyone else to take your claim "God" seriously. A circular argument is a particularly bad way to attempt that.
Paul hammers this home in most of the letters to the nascent congregations, many made up of Jewish Christians steeped in the legalism of first century Judaism. That there is nothing we can do to appease God - sacrifices, pennance, out the window, must have come as a revelation to them - an entirely new way of thinking. Grace is a topic which could stretch to a hundred posts. It's amazing. (Sorry......)
Don't be. There are countless myths and superstitions that others find to be "amazing" too. Provided neither you nor they claims special privileges for them - being taught as facts to children for example - it's no-one's business but yours and theirs.
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The Apostle Paul was commissioned to tell people that God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all the human is concerned; sin is no longer the issue on the table of God’s justice today. How much forgiveness does everyone have according to the Apostle Paul? It has all been forgiven upfront; there is not an ounce of forgiveness to be obtained. The reconciliation that Jesus accomplished for the human race was total, complete, and unalterable, it will always stand. God is reconciled where the entirety the human races sin debt is concerned; there is no sin left on an individual to forgive.
newnature, have you thought of going to see someone, only it looks like we may well be getting lessons from you about how to deal with Unicorns next.
Go to the faith sharing part of the forum and share your delusions with them.
ippy
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He's done that, he doesn't do discussions there either.
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Hold the bus!
Do I accept the atonement?
Yep.
Do I understand what you are trying to say?
Yep!
However, the way you're purtting it forward, couched in theology speak, is a bit stilted and unattractive.
His 'atonement' seems to be of the penal substititution kind. The whole idea of atonement is all Greek to me, but the NN version is particularly bizarre, especially if the underlying belief is in a Trinitarian God. God requires a payment for 'sin' so he sends a bit of himself (second person of the Trinity) to make the payment to himself....
If indeed that floats NN's boat....but as bluehillside has implied elsewhere, all this theology stuff is built on vapors (or vapours, if you prefer).
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Whether I find it circular or not is really not the point, BHS. Paul hammers this home in most of the letters to the nascent congregations, many made up of Jewish Christians steeped in the legalism of first century Judaism. That there is nothing we can do to appease God - sacrifices, pennance, out the window, must have come as a revelation to them - an entirely new way of thinking. Grace is a topic which could stretch to a hundred posts. It's amazing. (Sorry......)
If there is a point to this doctrine of 'grace', I still find it bewildering that it should involve Jesus' 'sacrifice' - which was no sacrifice, since he was crucified because he was viewed as troublemaker to the Jewish and Roman authorities. God could quite easily bestow his 'grace' without this ludicrous scenario, invented by Paul, for no doubt very personal reasons. Assuming that there is a God of course....