Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on March 03, 2017, 11:58:42 PM
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Still not clear on the final numbers and even when they are what the impact will be. But the coverage on this by the main news in the UK has been bordering on non existent. I have low expectations that in best limbo style the coverage has effortlessly slid under.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-northern-ireland-2017-39147988
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Agreed - this is ridiculous; the MSM have virtually ignored this - and it might just come back to bite them. It appears that, for the first time, the Nationalists/Republicans have won more seats collectively than the Unionists. Not only is this a very significant milestone, it means that possibly the province's wish to remain in the EU, as shown last June, will come into play on a national level.
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Still not clear on the final numbers and even when they are what the impact will be. But the coverage on this by the main news in the UK has been bordering on non existent. I have low expectations that in best limbo style the coverage has effortlessly slid under.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-northern-ireland-2017-39147988
What I find deeply depressing is how sectarian NI remains. So people still wont vote for a party unless it nails its colours firmly to the Unionist (i.e. Protestant) or Republican (i.e. Catholic) mast. I'd have hoped that 20 years on from the Good Friday agreement parties that are non-sectarian, focusing on the bread and butter issues, would have made much greater headway, but sadly not.
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What I find deeply depressing is how sectarian NI remains. So people still wont vote for a party unless it nails its colours firmly to the Unionist (i.e. Protestant) or Republican (i.e. Catholic) mast. I'd have hoped that 20 years on from the Good Friday agreement parties that are non-sectarian, focusing on the bread and butter issues, would have made much greater headway, but sadly not.
For once I will agree with you. NI has traditionally had the "Orange" vote, and the "Green" vote, whilst there has been some movement within these two blocks, nobody actually left their "block". Things ain't changed :-(
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What I find deeply depressing is how sectarian NI remains. So people still wont vote for a party unless it nails its colours firmly to the Unionist (i.e. Protestant) or Republican (i.e. Catholic) mast. I'd have hoped that 20 years on from the Good Friday agreement parties that are non-sectarian, focusing on the bread and butter issues, would have made much greater headway, but sadly not.
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Agreed, Prof.
I'd have hoped that the information age we live in might have broadened the horizons of the main players; that 'Unionism' and 'Loyalism' are definately not the same thing, and that 'civic nationalism' is radically different from 'Irish nationalism' as espoused by some of the more radical strands of republicanism.
Sectarianism, it seems, is ingrained.
However there seems to have been a demographic shift of a sort, and that the nationalist side is gaining through sheer wieght of numbers. This may yet take a few years to be very significant, but it may act as a touchstone for tension.
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Agreed, Prof.
I'd have hoped that the information age we live in might have broadened the horizons of the main players; that 'Unionism' and 'Loyalism' are definately not the same thing, and that 'civic nationalism' is radically different from 'Irish nationalism' as espoused by some of the more radical strands of republicanism.
Sectarianism, it seems, is ingrained.
However there seems to have been a demographic shift of a sort, and that the nationalist side is gaining through sheer wieght of numbers. This may yet take a few years to be very significant, but it may act as a touchstone for tension.
Now I fully understand why the concept of 'power sharing' was necessary at the outset. However I'm not sure it helps, as ultimately it ingrains the concept of 2 separate blocks that have to be accommodated in any government.
I wonder what would happen if the traditional UK parties decided to stand in NI? Would they simply be ignored, or would this eventually break the sectarian system as people in NI see the notion of wanting the Tories or Labour as more important than Unionist or Republican.
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For once I will agree with you.
Blimey - do we disagree that often ;)
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The DUP traditionalluy affiliate with the Tories, the UUP and SDLP with Labour. I can't see either UK party trying to change that - after all, should their votes dilute the parties which are affiliated to them, it opens the door for the PUP or Sinn Fein to increase their power base. Better they stay out of it, IMHO - the mix is toxic enough. Tension exists at a moderate level; the main parties have most of the hotheads on either side on a tight rope, but there are still fringe nutters who plant the occasional bomb (one was defused only this week) If they 'get lucky; there might be a slight return to a troubled landscape we all hoped was consigned to history.
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Ireland should never have been divided into North and South. Whilst I condemn the terrible atrocities perpetrated by the IRA, >:( I feel that they would never have come to the fore in the 60s if Ian Paisley and his mob hadn't made waves. Britain treated Ireland abysmally in the past.
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Ireland should never have been divided into North and South. Whilst I condemn the terrible atrocities perpetrated by the IRA, >:( I feel that they would never have come to the fore in the 60s if Ian Paisley and his mob hadn't made waves. Britain treated Ireland abysmally in the past.
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I'm no unionist - far from it; niether do I support the DUP, but I have to admit that, in the NI Assembly, the partnership - which became a firm friendship - between Paisly and McGuiness was a great force for stability in the first years of the devolved settlement.
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I'm no unionist - far from it; niether do I support the DUP, but I have to admit that, in the NI Assembly, the partnership - which became a firm friendship - between Paisly and McGuiness was a great force for stability in the first years of the devolved settlement.
In the end maybe, but at what cost to so many lives when they were at each other's throats?
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Ah! But who to blame for the loss of life? When there is no democratic alternative, and civil rights are denied, some thought violence was the answer. It wasn't, of course - but without condoning it, I understand why some felt the need to exercise it.
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Whilst I agree that you would hope that the sectarian vote would drop away, I think there is more significance to this vote than might first be thought. The DUP share of the seats is significantly down, for the first time there is not a unionist majority in a province set up to have one, the Alliance and Green share of the seats is up, the DUP has lost the Petition of Concern power, and we have a new leader for Sinn Fein not associated with the troubles.
It's not a seachange but it feels like a tipping point.
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Whilst I in no way shape or form share any of the DUP's aims, I recognise that a significant element of mainly urban poorer people do. My fear is that, if they see 'loyalism' (though loyal to what?) declining, they might get into a similar mindset as the sector which saw their cause of republicanism and democracy lost in the 1960s - and the rest, unfortunately, is history. I'd have liked the devolved settlement - very constrained as it undoubtably is - to have lasted a couple of generations, to let at least some of the fervour of the hotheads on both sides to fade a bit.
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Which is why I see some positives in this result. It's a gradual change rather than a quick one and surely for the eventual move from sectarianism the DUP have to decline? The worry is, of course, that through the possible lack of ability of the DUP and Sinn Fein to work togethet , then we go back to direct rule. Though even that may act as a catalyst for change.
Leaving aside that, it would be good to see a change in leadership of Sinn Fein in the Republic.
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Actually, were Adams to leave the scene in the south, I think Sinn Fein's vote might increase significantly. I know a few Irishmen who agree broadly with Sinn Fein's policies - which for the uninitiated are broadly centre-left - but will not vote for them while Adams remains leader.
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Agree. And I think that would lead to Sinn Fein becoming a much less sectarian based party, something that is already happening and needs to be taken into account in looking at the election results.
Oh and just to note there is a very large scale majority for parties that are opposed to Brexit.
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When you add the fact that the DUP was, by and large, the only main pro-Brexit force - and that the province voted by a majority to remain, the mess gets even more tangled. Things may go from bad to worse if the Westminster brexit government has to step in and take control of the province if heads cannot be banged together. And posters thought SCOTLAND was complicated?
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And given that the election is post referendum , it screws the will of the people 'argument'. This result combined with May's attempt to turn the council elections in Scotland into a mini Brexit referendum, which seems a badly advised tactic to me, could have some very intetesting effects.
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Only the UK voted in the EU referendum. Other regional and national issues and matters have no bearing on it.
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Only the UK voted in the EU referendum. Other regional and national issues and matters have no bearing on it.
So you want to apply the rule of law except when you don't.
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So you want to apply the rule of law except when you don't.
I thought what a posted was clear. Only the referendum dealt with the brexit issue which was only applicable to the UK, and not to any of its sub-parts polling data.
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I thought what a posted was clear. Only the referendum dealt with the brexit issue which was only applicable to the UK, and not to any of its sub-parts polling data.
Didn't say it wasn't clear. Just that you are being inconsistent in your argument.
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Didn't say it wasn't clear. Just that you are being inconsistent in your argument.
How?
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Only the UK voted in the EU referendum. Other regional and national issues and matters have no bearing on it.
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JK;
You are clearly not in touch with the quagmire of NI politics.
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JK;ntvto
You are clearly not in touch with the quagmire of NI politics.
You might want to check your spellchecker. It seems to want to replace 'reality' with ' the quagmire of NI politics.' ;)
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I didn't think JK had a conception of reality.
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Not sure it is inevitable but certainly more likely
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/northern-ireland-stormont-crisis-sinn-fein-dup-united-ireland-credible-inevitable-a7615756.html?cmpid=facebook-post
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JK;
You are clearly not in touch with the quagmire of NI politics.
That's beside the point with regards to who voted in the referendum. The fact that "other" politics are tangentially attached to it in retrospect is another matter, which I'm well aware of.
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That's beside the point with regards to who voted in the referendum. The fact that "other" politics are tangentially attached to it in retrospect is another matter, which I'm well aware of.
That's beside the point with regards to who voted in the referendum. The fact that "other" politics are tangentially attached to it in retrospect is another matter, which I'm well aware of.
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I think you'll find that almost all politics relate to the rather peculiar divide in the province.
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So the theoretical deadline on the forming a govt is today, and we don't look likely to get one. I suspect that we may see a lot of procrastination from the UK govt. Direct rule is not going to be something they will want on their plate and another election is unlikely to change the structure so much as to move on.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39401488
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IMHO one more generation & the Green vote will outnumber the Orange vote. I only wish that those who advocated non violence had triumphed,but it seems that they will not.
I won't shed any tears at NI leaving the UK, I simply wish good luck to those who in future will have to pay for it.
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In another generation, there will be hardly anyone who advocated violence (unless there is a return to it). Not sure what your comment about 'paying for it' means.
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Some of the die hard Orange and greens will not let it lie, NS. The violence has not really ended - simply reverted to a less newsworthy level. So far, Sinn Fein and the leaders of what was the UDA have just about managed to keep it under control. It's still something of a powder keg,though.
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Some of the die hard Orange and greens will not let it lie, NS. The violence has not really ended - simply reverted to a less newsworthy level. So far, Sinn Fein and the leaders of what was the UDA have just about managed to keep it under control. It's still something of a powder keg,though.
but that doesn't mean that they are supporting it, nor that any progress in the political process will see one side who supported violence 'win' with a particular outcome.
Much of the ongoing violence is nothing to do with any political outcome but that there was a symbiotic relationship with criminal money making and tribal control. Thus control of drug supply and prostitution in areas makes money for the cause, and the cause provides 'respectability' for the crime.
The idea that Paisley and McGuinness could form a friendship was unimaginable a generation or so ago. We need to be able to reconcile other than think someone won by violence because then we currently have no outcomes that would not be true of.
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In another generation, there will be hardly anyone who advocated violence (unless there is a return to it). Not sure what your comment about 'paying for it' means.
Somebody will have to pay for their dole money & council housing.