Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Anchorman on March 21, 2017, 09:23:32 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-northern-ireland-39184255
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A baddy who turned his life around, but it still doesn't mean he should be forgiven for his part in the IRA mayhem. That stupid phrase, rest in peace, shouldn't apply to him!
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Leaving aside your remarks suggesting you accept an afterlife after all, floo, do you think we should forget terrorists and leave them to rot? Robin Island comes to mind.......
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Floo your posts sometimes overflow with the milk of human kindness!
Unfortunately some people have such short, manipulated memories.
Look at how the Catholics were treated up to and during the troubles in NI. Think about the amount of hatred that was built with the collusion of the British Govt at various times, and the move to violence is not all that surprising, and to me at least understandable. Not excusable perhaps but still understandable.
I have noted before your tendency to view issues in black and white terms. I am more of a shades of gray person myself.
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Exactly TV. The astonishing thing for me - though on hindsight, it shouldn't astonish me - was the confirmed report this morning that McGuinness went further than just a political relationship with Paisley - he continued the friendship even after the old one-time-windbag had retired, even praying with him in his illness. Can you imagine such a thing happening in your wildest dreams in the seventies or eighties? Whatever one's view of the man, that, at least, was truly remarkable.
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Floo your posts sometimes overflow with the milk of human kindness!
Unfortunately some people have such short, manipulated memories.
Look at how the Catholics were treated up to and during the troubles in NI. Think about the amount of hatred that was built with the collusion of the British Govt at various times, and the move to violence is not all that surprising, and to me at least understandable. Not excusable perhaps but still understandable.
I have noted before your tendency to view issues in black and white terms. I am more of a shades of gray person myself.
Were the IRA of which McGuiness was a member full of the milk of human kindness, or was Ian unlamented Paisley full of it too when he goaded the IRA into doing what they did?
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Were the IRA of which McGuiness was a member full of the milk of human kindness, or was Ian unlamented Paisley full of it too when he goaded the IRA into doing what they did?
Cart before horse Floo.
Look at the history of it. Understand how the Catholics were persecuted. Then try to think how you would feel in their situation.
Is empathy a word you have come across?
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Were the IRA of which McGuiness was a member full of the milk of human kindness, or was Ian unlamented Paisley full of it too when he goaded the IRA into doing what they did?
Which ignores Trent's point and creates a false dichotomy.
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Floo: I'm no apologist for terrorists - but your view is far too simplistic. I may not agree with the IRA - no-one with any decency should - but I understand the reasons for their revival. When you are denied decent education, discriminated against when it comes to housing, employment, social services,and when you have no democratic voice, what choice do you have? Demonstrate! Well, the civil rights movement did that - peacefully - and were beaten up by the armed RUC for their pains. How would you have fought back? The IRA of the late 'sixties was little more than a glorified gang with a grievance - till events like Bloody Sunday turned them into a full blown terrorist group. There was blood on a lot of hands, floo - 'loyalist', republican as well as British. No-one emerged from that mess squeaky clean. How far should we take our retribution?
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Looking at the various reactions to his death, it's obvious that there is a distance to go for reconciliation in NI. It seems to me that this would be a good time for Gerry Adams to stand aside.
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I have Irish ancestry, and in 2008 took out Irish nationality to run along side my British one. The Brits treated Ireland abysmally over the centuries, and whilst I can understand why the IRA needed to rebel I cannot condone the way they went about it.
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I too cannot really condone the violence meted out by the IRA but yearslater, as a more mature person, Martin McGuiness worked tirelessly for peace and reconciliation. As he moved on so should we, forgive the past and look at now.
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An interesting reflection from the Corymeela community - a centre dedicated to reconcilliation, somewhat akin to the Iona community. http://www.corrymeela.org/news/73/martin-mcguinness
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A baddy who turned his life around, but it still doesn't mean he should be forgiven for his part in the IRA mayhem. That stupid phrase, rest in peace, shouldn't apply to him!
You are absolutely right.
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As he tried so hard to make reparation I believe he should be forgiven. Would you like him not to be at peace?
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I do understand where Floo is coming from since there are some my age (57 next month :() who have spent most of their lives without legs as a result of the IRA bombing at the Tower of London.
However, in the longer run McGuiness did more for Norn Iron as a politician that he would have done had he been executed as a terrorist. No he was not a nice man, but some situations are not for nice people to resolve. Ultimately we should remember that the Federation of Conservative Students were wearing "Hang Nelson Mandela" badges only thirty years ago.
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As he tried so hard to make reparation I believe he should be forgiven. Would you like him not to be at peace?
The injunction to 'rest in peace' has always set my teeth slightly on edge, since this tries to obfuscate the fact that said person is dead, he is no more, he is.... well, all the other euphemisms used in the Monty Python parrot sketch.
I impress on all I know that when I die, they are not to say she has 'passed away'. I will have died, I will be dead.
I think from what I heard on the radio yesterday that both sides of his life have been reasonably represented.
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As he tried so hard to make reparation I believe he should be forgiven. Would you like him not to be at peace?
His acts and the consequences of them are fact, indelible and perpetual. Being "forgiven" can't possibly help him as he is dead.
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I understand what you are saying and resting in peace means nothing to anyone who doesn't believe in an afterlife, however it does to those who do. The post in which resting in peace first came up gave the impression that he should never have peace because of what he had done which showed an unforgiving attitude towards someone who later tried to make amends. Nothing he did would ever be able to repair people's lives torn apart by bombs and violence, I know that.
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From the director of the Evangelical Alliance(Northern Ireland): http://www.eauk.org/current-affairs/politics/evangelical-alliance-marks-the-death-of-martin-mcguinness.cfm?platform=hootsuite
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Thanks for posting that Anchorman, it is a powerful interview & sums up how I feel about him.
Also I totally get what Humph said; I particularly remember Bishopsgate, was near there when it happened and had been talking to two people, American tourists, who were going there that day, don't know what happened to them. My parents were worried when I got home that I had been killed or maimed. It was a terrible time.
Recently I have seen one of Mountbatten's daughters and granddaughter on TV talking about how he was killed (with others), just going out on his boat with family and friends, and the impact it had on them which they'll never quite get over.
So I know why there are some who found the IRA campaign of that time too much to forgive. However I can't go along with this, no disrespect to the poster:
A baddy who turned his life around, but it still doesn't mean he should be forgiven for his part in the IRA mayhem. That stupid phrase, rest in peace, shouldn't apply to him!
People change, that applies to us all. Carrying bitterness in our hearts doesn't help.
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I'm always reminded of that terrible bomb at Enniskillin, when the wall collapsed on the crowd at the War Memorial. I remember Gordon Wilson holding his dying daughter's hand - and later forgiving those who had carried out that atrocity. That was one of the bravest, most courageous things I ever saw on TV - andif he had the guts to do it and become a worker for peacee, then we cannot afford to do less.
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I'm always reminded of that terrible bomb at Enniskillin, when the wall collapsed on the crowd at the War Memorial. I remember Gordon Wilson holding his dying daughter's hand - and later forgiving those who had carried out that atrocity. That was one of the bravest, most courageous things I ever saw on TV - andif he had the guts to do it and become a worker for peacee, then we cannot afford to do less.
Agreed, but I also understand those who have not been able to forgive. While I can sit here and hope that I would be able to forgive, I am aware that part of me would rip through every law, every moral injunction, every piece of decency I have to have vengeance, never mind any possibility of forgiving.
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I'm always reminded of that terrible bomb at Enniskillin, when the wall collapsed on the crowd at the War Memorial. I remember Gordon Wilson holding his dying daughter's hand - and later forgiving those who had carried out that atrocity. That was one of the bravest, most courageous things I ever saw on TV - andif he had the guts to do it and become a worker for peacee, then we cannot afford to do less.
Wonderful. Were we all made of that stuff.
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I live too far away to be able to offer any comment on this particular issue. But you might find the following story from South Africa of relevance and interest.
Shortly before the transition to democratic government, there was a terrorist attack on a church, not far from me, during the Sunday evening service. Several people were killed and others badly injured. Some visiting Russian sailors were amongst the casualties. The news spread rapidly and within a short time media reporters had inundated the place. One church member who had just seen his seriously injured wife taken by ambulance to hospital (she later died of her injuries) was still there helping other injured before going to get news of his wife. A TV man approached him and under the glare of the TV cameras he was asked to give his reaction. His reply was as follows, 'I don't know who was responsible for this but whoever you are I want you to know that we forgive you and you can also find forgiveness in Jesus'.
The perpetrators were subsequently brought to trial and given lengthy sentences but later released following a hearing before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (headed by Archbishop Tutu) under the transition amnesty agreement. After their arrest, but before the hearing, the church requested a meeting with them, met them all in person and confirmed their forgiveness. The perpetrators also apologised, whether from conviction or because of the intense media exposure I couldn't say. Needless to say the actions of the church, both on the night of the attack and subsequently, received a quite sensational reaction in the media, both local and abroad. The minister later made the comment that through this incident more people were brought to faith than he could have expected through ten years of evangelical campaigns.
Such is the power of forgiveness which we should strive to match.