Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: floo on March 25, 2017, 11:30:00 AM
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The whole idea of a summer time is complete bollocks. This far north it makes no difference whatsover because night time is virtually nonexistant. Instead we have to spend millions twice a year just so we can be in sync with a bunch of southerners who could just as easily get up an hour earlier.
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Don't forget to put your clocks forward one hour before you go to bed.
Do you wish we had BST all the year round as we did for a short time in the 60s? I think I would prefer it, however I guess those much further north than us would find the dark mornings a real pain.
This is an interesting article.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/0/do-clocks-go-forward-time-does-british-summer-begin-2017-do/
I start work at 07:00 in London, so I am up at 04:30. I would happily stay on GMT all year round.
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I would stick with summer time all year round.
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I would stick with summer time all year round.
Yes, and then we could have Britsh Double Summertime as in the war years.
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Yes, and then we could have Britsh Double Summertime as in the war years.
No I wouldn't bother with changing the clocks at all.
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Yes, and then we could have Britsh Double Summertime as in the war years.
You've got my vote on that ekim.
ippy
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Depends how far north you are though, and it is a double edged sword.
Here in Glasgow, in late June, in stays lighter in the evenings for a while longer than, say, in Portsmouth: I've been in Orkney in late June when it gets more dusk than dark, and even then just for a few hours.
However, come late-December here in Glasgow, it would stay dark until around 9.30am (and nearer 10am in northern Scotland) unless the clocks reverted back to GMT each autumn.
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However, come late-December here in Glasgow, it would stay dark until around 9.30am (and nearer 10am in northern Scotland) unless the clocks reverted back to GMT each autumn.
The basic problem is that daylight hours are short in the winter. It's either dark in the morning or dark in the afternoon. I'd argue that it's generally nicer if it is dark in the morning.
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Depends how far north you are though, and it is a double edged sword.
Here in Glasgow, in late June, in stays lighter in the evenings for a while longer than, say, in Portsmouth: I've been in Orkney in late June when it gets more dusk than dark, and even then just for a few hours.
However, come late-December here in Glasgow, it would stay dark until around 9.30am (and nearer 10am in northern Scotland) unless the clocks reverted back to GMT each autumn.
Ah well, perhaps when Scotland gets its independence we can have separate time zones.
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The basic problem is that daylight hours are short in the winter. It's either dark in the morning or dark in the afternoon. I'd argue that it's generally nicer if it is dark in the morning.
I'm not a morning person staying light later in the evening would suit me, before I retired I would have welcomed some extra time in the evenings out in my garden and I would still like that extra hour.
ippy
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I forgot about the clocks going forward! I was sitting here thinking I had plenty of time when Synthetic dave told me it was 7:10 not 6:10 so I did not have time to do my hour's walk before goin to the station to catch the train. I did my regular physio exercises heere at home.
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Don't forget to put your clocks forward one hour before you go to bed.
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Bit of a job when you've got eight of them, plus a bike computer, to correct!
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Bit of a job when you've got eight of them, plus a bike computer, to correct!
We have loads of clocks and watches, but fortunately most are radio controlled, I have already done the few which aren't.
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It would bloody be the morning I'm supposed to be up with my boy to watch the Aussie GP. Bad enough getting up at six, let alone when my body thinks it is 5 am!
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It would bloody be the morning I'm supposed to be up with my boy to watch the Aussie GP. Bad enough getting up at six, let alone when my body thinks it is 5 am!
I am up by 6.30am everyday of the year.
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The main issue with me is the timing of the change. The Autumn change (end Oct) seems about right. The spring change is way too late, being about a week the summer side of the equinox. The equivalent for Autumn would be putting the clocks back on about the 15th Sept.
So if we can put clocks back late October, we should put them forward again mid February.
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Depends how far north you are though, and it is a double edged sword. Here in Glasgow, in late June, in stays lighter in the evenings for a while longer than, say, in Portsmouth: I've been in Orkney in late June when it gets more dusk than dark, and even then just for a few hours. However, come late-December here in Glasgow, it would stay dark until around 9.30am (and nearer 10am in northern Scotland) unless the clocks reverted back to GMT each autumn.
....and it would be a drain on dairy and beef farming in Scotland to boot. The electric bills would shoot up for starters, meaning that the price of milk and beef would escalate as well. As it is, most farmers struggle to get their work done in the limited daylight hours in December and January.
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....and it would be a drain on dairy and beef farming in Scotland to boot. The electric bills would shoot up for starters, meaning that the price of milk and beef would escalate as well. As it is, most farmers struggle to get their work done in the limited daylight hours in December and January.
Eh - but regardless of whether or when you change the clocks you don't actually alter the amount of daylight.
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Eh - but regardless of whether or when you change the clocks you don't actually alter the amount of daylight.
That is true.
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We tried staying on BST all year round in the late 60s. It was widely hated, and the government went back to changing the clocks each Spring and Autumn. The advocates of year-round BST try to tell us that it was popular with the public, but hated by business, but some of us are old enough to remember the truth.
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We tried staying on BST all year round in the late 60s. It was widely hated, and the government went back to changing the clocks each Spring and Autumn. The advocates of year-round BST try to tell us that it was popular with the public, but hated by business, but some of us are old enough to remember the truth.
I remember it as a teenager, and preferred BST all the year round.
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I remember it as a teenager, and preferred BST all the year round.
Most people didn't, especially up North and in Scotland. Way down in the Channel Isles, the dark mornings wouldn't have been as noticable.
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Most people didn't,
Evidence please.
especially up North and in Scotland.
Most people don't live in the North or Scotland ...
Way down in the Channel Isles, the dark mornings wouldn't have been as noticable.
... or the Channel Islands.
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Evidence please.
My memory. I dare say I could find copies of contemporary newspaper accounts.Most people don't live in the North or Scotland ...
I said especially, not exclusively. ... or the Channel Islands.
No, but LR did, back then.
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My memory. I dare say I could find copies of contemporary newspaper accounts.
Newspaper reports wouldn't tell you whether Most people didn't as you claimed.
I said especially, not exclusively.
But that could easily be outweighed by far greater numbers liking it in the south of the UK (where most people live). That's my point.
Anyhow, my issue isn't with GMT/BST change in principle, but the timing. Next year we will have to wait until 31st March for the clocks to go forward. And given that this is after the spring equinox there cannot be any claim that this adversely affects those in the north.
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Most people didn't, especially up North and in Scotland. Way down in the Channel Isles, the dark mornings wouldn't have been as noticable.
Sunrise is the same as here in North Wales, sunset is a few minutes later.
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My recollection is of going to work in the dark.
When I have been to France in winter, around New Year, I noticed that it wasn't light until 9,00am. It seemed bizarre going shopping in the dark.
The French have chosen to align their clocks with their neighbours in central Europe. In June it means that practically the whole of the time that most people are awake is daytime but in winter the days do seem short.
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Sunrise is the same as here in North Wales, sunset is a few minutes later.
If people in the North can cope with BST still being in place in the last week in October, then they can cope with the clock going forward again in mid Feb - I simply cannot understand why the dates for clocks going back and going forward are so unequal in relation to the winter solstice and spring/autumn equinox.
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Sunrise is the same as here in North Wales, sunset is a few minutes later.
In North Wales you are about 260 miles north of Guernsey, and about 1.5 degrees (about 60 miles at that latitude) further west.
In mid summer, sunrise will be earlier in North Wales than in Guernsey but later in winter, and sunset will be later in summer in North Wales than Guernsey and earlier in winter.
North Wales (say Conwy) is about 60 miles west of St Peter Port and therefore Conwy is always (in solar terms) about 6 minutes behind St Peter Port.
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Don't forget to put your clocks forward one hour before you go to bed.
No. It's better to do it in the morning after you get up, so you don't lose an hour's sleep.
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Eh - but regardless of whether or when you change the clocks you don't actually alter the amount of daylight.
However, you would haver to factor in the icreased use of electricity, the inconvienience of milk tankers clogging up roads, the added starain on an already streesed out dairy industry, etc.
Perhaps the matter should be devolved and not left in the hands of Westminster.
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....and it would be a drain on dairy and beef farming in Scotland to boot. The electric bills would shoot up for starters, meaning that the price of milk and beef would escalate as well. As it is, most farmers struggle to get their work done in the limited daylight hours in December and January.
The stupidity of this argument never fails to astonish me.
There are about ten dairy and beef farmers in Scotland and millions of people who would rather have a lighter evening.
The other point is, of course, that nothing prevents a farmer from getting up whenever he or she pleases. If it's too dark to do any work until 9.30, don't get up until 9.30.
Here's a little clue. The hours of daylight in January are the same whether you are on BST, GMT, CET, or US East coast time.
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The stupidity of this argument never fails to astonish me. There are about ten dairy and beef farmers in Scotland and millions of people who would rather have a lighter evening. The other point is, of course, that nothing prevents a farmer from getting up whenever he or she pleases. If it's too dark to do any work until 9.30, don't get up until 9.30. Here's a little clue. The hours of daylight in January are the same whether you are on BST, GMT, CET, or US East coast time.
Eh? I can name about fifteen dairy farms and another five beef within my parish alone. I can also point out to the alarminf rate of suicide and attempted suicide in the industry - one particular suicide too close to home. The industyry is at breaking point already; why strees it further because somer twit in the south east of England is miffed? Devolve it, and let those closest to the situation deal with it.
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An aspect of this, from the perspective here in Scotland, is that it is preferable that it is lighter in the morning when kids are going to school, in that traffic is heavier between 8 - 9 am with people going to work as kids are going to school, rather than it being lighter when kids leave school in the afternoon, since they do so before the onset of the evening rush hour.
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An aspect of this, from the perspective here in Scotland, is that it is preferable that it is lighter in the morning when kids are going to school, in that traffic is heavier between 8 - 9 am with people going to work as kids are going to school, rather than it being lighter when kids leave school in the afternoon, since they do so before the onset of the evening rush hour.
Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember that insane Westminster experiment when they left the clocks as they were.
We were still going to school - on country roads - in the pitch black, with little or no street lighting, no pavements, and trucks whizzing past.
Another reason why, if Westminster insists on this, it should be a devolved matter.
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In North Wales you are about 260 miles north of Guernsey, and about 1.5 degrees (about 60 miles at that latitude) further west.
In mid summer, sunrise will be earlier in North Wales than in Guernsey but later in winter, and sunset will be later in summer in North Wales than Guernsey and earlier in winter.
North Wales (say Conwy) is about 60 miles west of St Peter Port and therefore Conwy is always (in solar terms) about 6 minutes behind St Peter Port.
At present Guernsey and North East Wales are exactly the same time for sunrise, I have just looked it up.
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An aspect of this, from the perspective here in Scotland, is that it is preferable that it is lighter in the morning when kids are going to school, in that traffic is heavier between 8 - 9 am with people going to work as kids are going to school, rather than it being lighter when kids leave school in the afternoon, since they do so before the onset of the evening rush hour.
ROSPA advocate SDST on the basis that there would less accidents and deaths:
https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/road-users/british-summertime-fact-sheet/
‘More children will die because of the darker mornings.’
This is not true: the effect of SDST is to save children’s lives, even more so in Scotland than in England and
Wales, because Scotland has longer, darker winter evenings, which is where the principal casualties occur.
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At present Guernsey and North East Wales are exactly the same time for sunrise, I have just looked it up.
North east Wales - closer to the English border? You're probably right - it will be almost due north of Guernsey and since we are just a matter of days after the equinox there will be little difference. Check what time sunrise and sunset will be on the summer solstice and you should find that the further north you are the longer the day will be.
The building of the railways lead to the standardisation of time in Britain.
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Eh? I can name about fifteen dairy farms and another five beef within my parish alone.
Are you so stupid that you don't realise that the first part of what I said was hyperbole for effect? The point is that there are very few of them in comparison to everybody else. Why should the tail wag the dog?
I can also point out to the alarminf rate of suicide and attempted suicide in the industry - one particular suicide too close to home. The industyry is at breaking point already; why strees it further because somer twit in the south east of England is miffed? Devolve it, and let those closest to the situation deal with it.
The farming industry is not at breaking point because it's dark in winter. There's no reason to suppose that the suicide rate will increase just because we ditch daylight saving time.
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An aspect of this, from the perspective here in Scotland, is that it is preferable that it is lighter in the morning when kids are going to school, in that traffic is heavier between 8 - 9 am with people going to work as kids are going to school, rather than it being lighter when kids leave school in the afternoon, since they do so before the onset of the evening rush hour.
Traffic is also heavy in the evenings when they come home. Moreover, people are more tired in the evenings. Also, if it would be dark at 9.30 under BST, then it is currently dark at 8.30 under GMT.
There was a study done a few years back that concluded that BST all year round would save lives due to it not being so dark in the evenings.
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Are you so stupid that you don't realise that the first part of what I said was hyperbole for effect? The point is that there are very few of them in comparison to everybody else. Why should the tail wag the dog?
The farming industry is not at breaking point because it's dark in winter. There's no reason to suppose that the suicide rate will increase just because we ditch daylight saving time.
Well, if you want milk on your cornflakes and steak on your plate - at a price you can afford - that's quite a good reason why the tail should wag the dog, I'd suggest.
Because when the insane Brexit is finally here, the prices will go up anyway with or without BST ajustment....removing the winter chnge will just make them higher, thats all. Up to you, though.
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Well, if you want milk on your cornflakes and steak on your plate - at a price you can afford
Are you trying to suggest that won't happen without daylight saving time? Tell me your reasoning.
Not that most Scottish meat is at the economy end of the market anyway.
Because when the insane Brexit is finally here, the prices will go up anyway with or without BST ajustment....removing the winter chnge will just make them higher, thats all. Up to you, though.
How will it make them higher? You have just given me bare assertions without any reasoning.
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Eh? I can name about fifteen dairy farms and another five beef within my parish alone. I can also point out to the alarminf rate of suicide and attempted suicide in the industry - one particular suicide too close to home. The industyry is at breaking point already; why strees it further because somer twit in the south east of England is miffed? Devolve it, and let those closest to the situation deal with it.
Repeat after me - 'having BST or not does not change the amount of daylight during the winter'.
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However, you would haver to factor in the icreased use of electricity, the inconvienience of milk tankers clogging up roads, the added starain on an already streesed out dairy industry, etc.
Perhaps the matter should be devolved and not left in the hands of Westminster.
Repeat after me - 'having BST or not does not change the amount of daylight during the winter'.
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Repeat after me - 'having BST or not does not change the amount of daylight during the winter'.
The only solution to Anchorman's problem of there not being enough hours in the day is to relocate all of the Scottish farmers closer to the equator.
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Here's a little clue. The hours of daylight in January are the same whether you are on BST, GMT, CET, or US East coast time.
Exactly - so what's the point of changing the system? It could, in any case, be done on an individual-employer basis, altering the hours of work if the majority of employees wanted it.
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Exactly - so what's the point of changing the system? It could, in any case, be done on an individual-employer basis, altering the hours of work if the majority of employees wanted it.
It can probably be classified as psychological! We just sort of feel better when the evenings are lighter, even though we know that the daylight hours are what they are, regardless of clocks/!
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It can probably be classified as psychological! We just sort of feel better when the evenings are lighter, even though we know that the daylight hours are what they are, regardless of clocks/!
But wouldn't that be an argument to stay on BST all year round?
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It can probably be classified as psychological! We just sort of feel better when the evenings are lighter, even though we know that the daylight hours are what they are, regardless of clocks/!
Postmen and farmers and other early-risers probably feel better when winter mornings are lighter. To clarify, I'm in favour of sticking with the current system.
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But wouldn't that be an argument to stay on BST all year round?
Sounds like it - but who wants winter mornings not getting light until 9 am or later?
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Sounds like it - but who wants winter mornings not getting light until 9 am or later?
Nobody. But then people also don't like it getting dark at 4pm. On the whole, I'd choose lighter evenings.
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Nobody. But then people also don't like it getting dark at 4pm. On the whole, I'd choose lighter evenings.
You are presumably not a postman! I was for many years. (I still am a postal worker, but on the late shift in the Mail Centre nowadays.)
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Sounds like it - but who wants winter mornings not getting light until 9 am or later?
When going to work one just accepts it - I go out around 7am a couple of days a week and don't mind it being dark then - but lovely at weekends or on days off. Really cosy, seems like middle of the night. Tho' don't think it is ever still dark at 9a.m. - (unless I was asleep and missed it :)).
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But wouldn't that be an argument to stay on BST all year round?
Not really; it is having to think about the date and therefore being conscious of the change that gives a bit of an uplift, I think.
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Not really; it is having to think about the date and therefore being conscious of the change that gives a bit of an uplift, I think.
I would like double daylight saving, I'm not a morning person anyway and I would really like to have and enjoy the late evenings.
Regards ippy
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I suspect views on this matter may well depend on how far north you live!
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I suspect views on this matter may well depend on how far north you live!
True. Up here in Finland it's s complete waste of time as the days are so long in the summer anyway. I fail to see it as anything other than pain in the arse.
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Changing the clocks is just a conplete waste of time and money. Whoever came up with the idea should have been hung, drawn and quartered. Days are longer in the summer and shorter in the winter. That's just nature. Leave the clocks alone.
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Dear Steve,
You are presumably not a postman! I was for many years. (I still am a postal worker, but on the late shift in the Mail Centre nowadays.)
Prove it :P
Question 1. What is a Haddie ( could be spelt Haddy ). ::)
Question 2. Who is the Holley man. ::)
Question 3. What is the dead letter branch. ::)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Steve,
Prove it :P
Question 1. What is a Haddie ( could be spelt Haddy ). ::)
Question 2. Who is the Holley man. ::)
Question 3. What is the dead letter branch. ::)
Gonnagle.
Dead letters are dealt with in Belfast. I have no idea about the first two.
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Dear Steve,
Belfast?? I think I got out of the post office just at the right time, I loved the dead letter branch, wonderful detective work trying to figure out where certain mail had come from or going too.
Haddy is or was lunchtime, Holley man was the overtime man, always a queue for that guy :P
Which reminds me of another word "carder" five 16 hour shifts, double Saturday and double Sunday, happy days :)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Steve,
Belfast?? I think I got out of the post office just at the right time, I loved the dead letter branch, wonderful detective work trying to figure out where certain mail had come from or going too.
Haddy is or was lunchtime, Holley man was the overtime man, always a queue for that guy :P
Which reminds me of another word "carder" five 16 hour shifts, double Saturday and double Sunday, happy days :)
Gonnagle.
Blimy - when was this?
I think many mail centres have their own slang. In Hemel Hempstead, "shabbing" used to be the rotten trick of leaving loads of work for the person following you on a walk the next week, back in the days of four-week rotations.