Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Theism and Atheism => Topic started by: Sriram on April 17, 2017, 07:47:49 AM
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Hi everyone,
What is worship? Why do we worship certain gods and deities?
Some religious people may think that we should worship only certain deities and not others. While certain other religions may worship any deity.
The philosophy behind worship is that ...when we worship something we become humble and we build a faith and connection with the unseen power that is behind our life. It is not really about the deity that we worship. The reaction within us and the mental changes that happen are more important than the object we worship.
This is why in Hinduism we are allowed to worship any deity we want. Different members of a family may have different preferred deities, what we call Ishta devata. The important point is that regardless of which deity we worship the reaction within us is the same and the same faith is built up in us that controls our lower self and helps us develop spiritually. Many Hindus visit churches, mosques and gurudwaras....and for them Jesus or Moses or Mohammad are no different from Hindu sages or Mahavira or the Buddha.
In Jainism and Buddhism, worship was not encouraged in earlier times, but in course of time the emotional needs of people have made them worship Mahavira and Buddha themselves. Nothing wrong with that. It is natural and inevitable.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers.
Sriram
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Kya baat hai SriRam-Ji.
Excellent thoughts but try telling that to certain fascist religions, eh??
Nick
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Unfortunately the act of worship can be a two edged sword. It can be directed at anything or anybody and can be used as a method of control. In the eyes of many North Koreans, I feel sure that Kim Jong-un is worshipped almost as a God and the mental changes in people can become dedicated to egotistical nationalism or political and religious ideology.
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No idea why people 'worship', as opposed to 'approve', 'admire'. 'appreciate' etc.
Worship, as far as I can see regarding religion, is code for ritualised subservience.
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No idea why people 'worship', as opposed to 'approve', 'admire'. 'appreciate' etc.
Celebrity status comes to mind.
Worship, as far as I can see regarding religion, is code for ritualised subservience.
It can be that. I suspect that basically it was a structured method for attempting to invoke the qualities which were seen to emanate from a deity e.g. love, power, good fortune, life, protection etc. Of course, there are the negative elements which satanic and devil worshippers might seek to invoke.
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Dear Siriam,
You really should take the time to read some of Karen Armstrong's books ( you will find much to interest your good self ) but Our Lord Jesus told every Christian how to worship the Father when he was asked, What is the Greatest Commandment, Mathew 22 verses 34 - 40, it is all there in the Second Greatest Commandment, all there, the rest is window dressing.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Siriam,
You really should take the time to read some of Karen Armstrong's books ( you will find much to interest your good self ) but Our Lord Jesus told every Christian how to worship the Father when he was asked, What is the Greatest Commandment, Mathew 22 verses 34 - 40, it is all there in the Second Greatest Commandment, all there, the rest is window dressing.
Gonnagle.
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As a wee aside, if God alone is worthy of worship, why did Christ allow Himself to be worshipped....unless........
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Dear Jim,
Sorry old son but I respect you too much to go into that old argument, suffice to say, The Holy Trinity for me is just one way of saying, we have no way of describing the ineffable, or, I just don't know.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Jim,
Sorry old son but I respect you too much to go into that old argument, suffice to say, The Holy Trinity for me is just one way of saying, we have no way of describing the ineffable, or, I just don't know.
Gonnagle.
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Thing is, though, if Jesus respected the Mosaic Law and the Prophets, He should have rejected any worship directed at Him, since, as all Jews knew, only Fod - YHWH - is to be worshipped. So......
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Dear Jim,
Go away :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Just be thankful that I know Our Lord is my Salvation ;)
Gonnagle.
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No-one should worship anything or anyone. In any case, I've yet to hear someone actually explain what worship means, how it is done and what are its effects if any. I think Gordon has it spot on in his post above about the subservience.
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Dear Susan,
How we Worship, that's the key, Gordon does it, because he is a jolly good egg, I am sure you do it, I would go so far as to say, everyone on this forum worships God, we just all, the whole world, learn to do it more often.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Susan,
How we Worship, that's the key, Gordon does it, because he is a jolly good egg, I am sure you do it, I would go so far as to say, everyone on this forum worships God, we just all, the whole world, learn to do it more often.
Gonnagle.
No we don't. We really don't.
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Dear Susan,
How we Worship, that's the key, Gordon does it, because he is a jolly good egg, I am sure you do it, I would go so far as to say, everyone on this forum worships God, we just all, the whole world, learn to do it more often.
Gonnagle.
You are completely wrong! I do not worship anything or anyone, nor have I ever done so. Even when attending church and Sunday School I said the words - and learnt them off by heart because that's the sort of thing I did - and enjoyed the format of the services, but always had this critical thinking side in my mind. Apart from the fact that as a child the only thing my parents taught as real and existing was God, and even this god only helped those who helped themselves, I didn't feelllllllll cowed, or fearful, or humble etc before it. I certainly didn't spend any time thinking or worrying about it - I was too busy just getting on with life.
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Dear Susan,
How we Worship, that's the key, Gordon does it, because he is a jolly good egg, I am sure you do it, I would go so far as to say, everyone on this forum worships God, we just all, the whole world, learn to do it more often.
Gonnagle.
I can say that I never worship anything.
Why would anyone?
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Dear Berational, Susan and Rhiannon,
You have never helped your neighbour, you have never given to charity, you have never felt compassion for the poor, you have never tried to ease another human beings suffering.
Our Lord Jesus tells us how to Worship the Father, but if it eases your conscience or you would rather not associate with the Christian faith, then I think it was Confucius who first promoted the Golden Rule.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Berational, Susan and Rhiannon,
You have never helped your neighbour, you have never given to charity, you have never felt compassion for the poor, you have never tried to ease another human beings suffering.
Our Lord Jesus tells us how to Worship the Father, but if it eases your conscience or you would rather not associate with the Christian faith, then I think it was Confucius who first promoted the Golden Rule.
Gonnagle.
That's not worship! That is being a human being, behaving in a way that has been a survival trait since our species evolved. No supernatural anything involved.
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Perhaps it depends upon what is meant by 'worship'. If it means 'to whole heartedly devote your attention to' then some might worship 'truth'. Truth, in a sense, becomes their God or object of devotion.
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Worship's a funny thing. An awful lot of people seem to do it in one form or another and yet others find it completely mystifying. Perhaps as a social and hierarchical species we (some of us anyway) just naturally feel more comfortable in a pecking order and want to believe there's someone at the top who has all the answers and will look after us - God as tribal chief, I suppose. Most humans seems to want to feel part of a structured group or team with an authority figure at the apex. I never have but then I'm probably a bit weird. As for the Abrahamic God I can't for the life of me fathom how one can relate to, much less love, something that is supposed to be immaterial. Way too abstract for me, like the idea of capital T Truth.
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Dear Susan,
Is there a opposite to the word "evolving" anyway, whether you like it or not, everytime you help a fellow human being you Worship the Father.
But then, I like wee Albert who takes it one step further.
“A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.”
Widening our circle of Compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Susan,
How we Worship, that's the key, Gordon does it, because he is a jolly good egg, I am sure you do it, I would go so far as to say, everyone on this forum worships God, we just all, the whole world, learn to do it more often.
Gonnagle.
As the idea of any god holds little personal significance to me, I would challenge the idea that I worship(or have ever worshipped God). I don't love God, hate God, honour God, respect God, have reverence for God, praise God, glorify God, admire God or any other variation of worship that I can think of.
I have a feeling, maybe I'm wrong, that you are trying to fashion the word 'worship' to suit your own particular interpretation which seems to emphasise the doing of good to others. In which case I suggest that the word 'worship' would be in danger of becoming so generalised as to become rather meaningless.
So endeth the first lesson. ;)
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...... like the idea of capital T Truth.
I think capital T - Truth represents absolute truth as opposed to relative truth and Love represents universal love as opposed to selective love. Some seek the former, others are content with the latter. There are some who say God is Truth and God is Love and worship accordingly.
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Dear Susan,
Is there a opposite to the word "evolving" anyway, whether you like it or not, everytime you help a fellow human being you Worship the Father.
100% wrong. No *Father* to be the object of worship, so pleas do not say that any action I take is worship of any sort whatsoever.
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Dear Enki,
I have a feeling, maybe I'm wrong, that you are trying to fashion the word 'worship' to suit your own particular interpretation which seems to emphasise the doing of good to others. In which case I suggest that the word 'worship' would be in danger of becoming so generalised as to become rather meaningless.
Nope, I am a Christian, I follow the teachings of Our Lord Jesus, so I am not trying to fashion anything, but I have already explained this.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Berational, Susan and Rhiannon,
You have never helped your neighbour, you have never given to charity, you have never felt compassion for the poor, you have never tried to ease another human beings suffering.
Our Lord Jesus tells us how to Worship the Father, but if it eases your conscience or you would rather not associate with the Christian faith, then I think it was Confucius who first promoted the Golden Rule.
Gonnagle.
That is not worship but empathy.
As I say I do not worship anything and do not know why anyone would.
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Dear Susan,
Fair enough, sorry if I offended.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Susan,
Is there a opposite to the word "evolving" anyway, whether you like it or not, everytime you help a fellow human being you Worship the Father.
But then, I like wee Albert who takes it one step further.
Widening our circle of Compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
Gonnagle.
I do not worship your mythical father as I am not insane.
I help others as I empathise with them and may need help myself one day.
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Dear Berational,
Sorry if I offended, my apologies.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Berational, Susan and Rhiannon,
You have never helped your neighbour, you have never given to charity, you have never felt compassion for the poor, you have never tried to ease another human beings suffering.
Our Lord Jesus tells us how to Worship the Father, but if it eases your conscience or you would rather not associate with the Christian faith, then I think it was Confucius who first promoted the Golden Rule.
Gonnagle.
You re a very nice man, Gonners, so you see a god of love and you believe that all loving acts come from him. That simply isn't true though. I don't find it offensive that you suggest otherwise, it just isn't true. As BeRat says, it is empathy that makes us do what we do.
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Hi everyone,
What is worship? Why do we worship certain gods and deities?
Some religious people may think that we should worship only certain deities and not others. While certain other religions may worship any deity.
The philosophy behind worship is that ...when we worship something we become humble and we build a faith and connection with the unseen power that is behind our life. It is not really about the deity that we worship. The reaction within us and the mental changes that happen are more important than the object we worship.
This is why in Hinduism we are allowed to worship any deity we want. Different members of a family may have different preferred deities, what we call Ishta devata. The important point is that regardless of which deity we worship the reaction within us is the same and the same faith is built up in us that controls our lower self and helps us develop spiritually. Many Hindus visit churches, mosques and gurudwaras....and for them Jesus or Moses or Mohammad are no different from Hindu sages or Mahavira or the Buddha.
In Jainism and Buddhism, worship was not encouraged in earlier times, but in course of time the emotional needs of people have made them worship Mahavira and Buddha themselves. Nothing wrong with that. It is natural and inevitable.
Just some thoughts.
Cheers.
Sriram
Christianity isn't so different - you only need to look at the beliefs of Christians here to see that they believe in different gods that they think of as one God - some, like Gonners, have a lovely, loving, just god, others have a god who judges and hates. In some ways Christianity is just an umbrella term.
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Dear Berational,
Sorry if I offended, my apologies.
Gonnagle.
I do not need to think some mythical father will be pleased with my actions, I did it because it helps my neighbour and friends.
If you do it because you think some overlord will be pleased with you, then you are doing it for the WRONG reason.
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Dear Susan,
Fair enough, sorry if I offended.
Gonnagle.
Offence NEVER taken!!! :)
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I do not need the think so easy mythical father will be pleased with my actions, I did it because it helps my neighbour and friends.
If you do it because you think some overlord will be pleased with you, then you are doing it for the WRONG reason.
I think what Gonners is saying (because his faith wasn't so different to mine when I was a believer) is that all loving acts are an act of worship because all loving acts come from God. It's not about pleasing god as such, it is about doing what comes from knowing God's love.
Apologies if I'm wrong there, Gonners.
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I think what Gonners is saying (because his faith wasn't so different to mine when I was a believer) is that all loving acts are an act of worship because all loving acts come from God. It's not about pleasing god as such, it is about doing what comes from knowing God's love.
Apologies if I'm wrong there, Gonners.
Then for me this statement wrong.
My acts owe nothing to leprechauns, angels flying spaghetti monsters or Zeus.
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Worship's a funny thing. An awful lot of people seem to do it in one form or another and yet others find it completely mystifying. Perhaps as a social and hierarchical species we (some of us anyway) just naturally feel more comfortable in a pecking order and want to believe there's someone at the top who has all the answers and will look after us - God as tribal chief, I suppose. Most humans seems to want to feel part of a structured group or team with an authority figure at the apex. I never have but then I'm probably a bit weird. As for the Abrahamic God I can't for the life of me fathom how one can relate to, much less love, something that is supposed to be immaterial. Way too abstract for me, like the idea of capital T Truth.
I have done the worship thing and looking back on it now it was like living some kind of weird dream. I'm not really sure how my mind came to believe in it or feel it to be real. Maybe it was having to accept that there was nothing out there that was going to save me that made me wake up. Now I seek communion, not with deity but with nature, allowing myself to be a part of it rather than separate from t, and actually that is what I've always done, I just lacked the way of expressing it before.
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Dear Rhiannon,
You re a very nice man, Gonners, so you see a god of love and you believe that all loving acts come from him. That simply isn't true though. I don't find it offensive that you suggest otherwise, it just isn't true. As BeRat says, it is empathy that makes us do what we do.
Thank you, but I am no different from any other human being, subject to rage, hatred, envy and jealousy and all the other ills that we humans are subject to, and I am glad to see you are open to discussion and not taking my posts to heart.
But I would take you to task over, "That simply isn't true though" bit, how do you know this, me, I don't have a clue how God works, I simply follow the teachings of Christ, that is about as close as I can get to knowing what God wants or is.
I think what Gonners is saying (because his faith wasn't so different to mine when I was a believer) is that all loving acts are an act of worship because all loving acts come from God. It's not about pleasing god as such, it is about doing what comes from knowing God's love.
Apologies if I'm wrong there, Gonners.
Close enough ;)
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Thank you, but I am no different from any other human being, subject to rage, hatred, envy and jealousy and all the other ills that we humans are subject to, and I am glad to see you are open to discussion and not taking my posts to heart.
But I would take you to task over, "That simply isn't true though" bit, how do you know this, me, I don't have a clue how God works, I simply follow the teachings of Christ, that is about as close as I can get to knowing what God wants or is.
Close enough ;)
Gonnagle.
What I should have said is that 'it simply isn't true for me' - in other words, it really isn't why I do things and there's no 'hidden love of god' that is directing my actions in my reality. And I can't try to get to know what god wants, because I don't believe in a god that wants anything.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Thank you for clarifying but as I have tried so many times on this forum to explain, the nearest can understand what God wants is the Golden Rule, Our Lord Jesus explains it is on a par with the Greatest Commandment, and as I have researched it, it runs through almost every religion and philosophy known to man, it is the nearest I can come to finding out a truth, not the truth but a truth.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Thank you for clarifying but as I have tried so many times on this forum to explain, the nearest can understand what God wants is the Golden Rule, Our Lord Jesus explains it is on a par with the Greatest Commandment, and as I have researched it, it runs through almost every religion and philosophy known to man, it is the nearest I can come to finding out a truth, not the truth but a truth.
Gonnagle.
The golden rule predates Christianity and is based on empathy.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Thank you for clarifying but as I have tried so many times on this forum to explain, the nearest can understand what God wants is the Golden Rule, Our Lord Jesus explains it is on a par with the Greatest Commandment, and as I have researched it, it runs through almost every religion and philosophy known to man, it is the nearest I can come to finding out a truth, not the truth but a truth.
Gonnagle.
And that is true for you and that's fine. It just doesn't work for me, and it doesn't feel right when others project that only what I do.
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Dear Rhiannon,
True for me! which bit, what God wants or the Golden Rule?
Dear Berational,
Thanks, just spent ten minutes reading about one facet of empathy, do you think we can smell someones pain,
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/time-travelling-apollo/201610/i-feel-your-pain-literally?collection=1095904
I wonder if those scientists smelt the mices pain ( mices or mice )
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
True for me! which bit, what God wants or the Golden Rule?
Gonnagle.
What do you think?
Although I think that the Golden Rule does need certain qualifications. It doesn't work without forgiveness, for example. Then there's the way that beliefs are used to justify prejudice and hate - you know, like those who say it is loving to tell gay people that they are sinners on the basis that they would want there own sin pointed out to them. There's also the assumption that we *know* what is right for someone else based on our own experiences, preferences and knowledge, and that simply isn't the case. It can often justify unnecessary meddling. The road to hell...
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Dear Rhiannon,
True for me! which bit, what God wants or the Golden Rule?
Dear Berational,
Thanks, just spent ten minutes reading about one facet of empathy, do you think we can smell someones pain,
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/time-travelling-apollo/201610/i-feel-your-pain-literally?collection=1095904
I wonder if those scientists smelt the mices pain ( mices or mice )
Gonnagle.
It's a balance. You can have competing issues where you need to find the best path.
One principle is least harm.
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It's a balance. You can have competing issues where you need to find the best path.
One principle is least harm.
Agreed.
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Dear Rhiannon,
The God bit, fair enough, but I am heartened by the fact you and Berational are open to discussing the Golden Rule, there are so many sides to it, yes I think we do need forgiveness, and as you mention finger pointing, well that is also covered by Our Lords teachings ( I am a Christian ) but I also think, just like Berational we need empathy, also Compassion, Love, then there is also the question about treating your neighbour as you would like to be treated, can you love others if you do not love yourself.
Is loving yourself a bit narcissistic, or is it simply being comfortable in your own skin, being okay with your baggage.
The Golden Rule opens up so many avenues of discussion, even that word Love is very open, hard love, tough love, parental love, a child's love, falling in love, unconditional love.
But maybe I am over thinking the whole thing, Berational mentions least harm ( that is a Pagan rule, right? ) is it as simple as that?
Gonnagle.
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I have done the worship thing and looking back on it now it was like living some kind of weird dream. I'm not really sure how my mind came to believe in it or feel it to be real. Maybe it was having to accept that there was nothing out there that was going to save me that made me wake up. Now I seek communion, not with deity but with nature, allowing myself to be a part of it rather than separate from t, and actually that is what I've always done, I just lacked the way of expressing it before.
Worship seems to reinforce boundaries (self vs other) whereas communion dissolves them. Mainstream religion tends to emphasise with the former (worshiper vs God as a separate being) in contrast to the less popular mystical traditions which seek dissolution. People mainly seem to want to reify their sense of identity, hence the appeal of worship I guess. You're not going to have everlasting life if you've dissolved!
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Dear Rhiannon,
The God bit, fair enough, but I am heartened by the fact you and Berational are open to discussing the Golden Rule, there are so many sides to it, yes I think we do need forgiveness, and as you mention finger pointing, well that is also covered by Our Lords teachings ( I am a Christian ) but I also think, just like Berational we need empathy, also Compassion, Love, then there is also the question about treating your neighbour as you would like to be treated, can you love others if you do not love yourself.
Is loving yourself a bit narcissistic, or is it simply being comfortable in your own skin, being okay with your baggage.
The Golden Rule opens up so many avenues of discussion, even that word Love is very open, hard love, tough love, parental love, a child's love, falling in love, unconditional love.
But maybe I am over thinking the whole thing, Berational mentions least harm ( that is a Pagan rule, right? ) is it as simple as that?
Gonnagle.
The golden rule is nothing to do with Christianity.
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Dear Rhiannon,
The God bit, fair enough, but I am heartened by the fact you and Berational are open to discussing the Golden Rule, there are so many sides to it, yes I think we do need forgiveness, and as you mention finger pointing, well that is also covered by Our Lords teachings ( I am a Christian ) but I also think, just like Berational we need empathy, also Compassion, Love, then there is also the question about treating your neighbour as you would like to be treated, can you love others if you do not love yourself.
Is loving yourself a bit narcissistic, or is it simply being comfortable in your own skin, being okay with your baggage.
The Golden Rule opens up so many avenues of discussion, even that word Love is very open, hard love, tough love, parental love, a child's love, falling in love, unconditional love.
But maybe I am over thinking the whole thing, Berational mentions least harm ( that is a Pagan rule, right? ) is it as simple as that?
Gonnagle.
I know from experience that being in love with someone who cannot treat themselves with love, compassion and acceptance only leads to deep unhappiness because they can't believe enough to love you back. Maybe loving oneself is a lifetime's work but I think you are right, it is just a self acceptance, a looking in the mirror and going, 'I'm ok'. It's not narcissism, I've had a narcissist in my life too and they are terrifying and damaging.
I think one concern that I have with trying to love people is that in trying to help we can sometimes cock it right up. Least harm might be the right thing to do sometimes.
Wiccan do the 'harm none' thing. I do the 'muddle through and screw up sometimes but generally do ok' thing.
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Worship seems to reinforce boundaries (self vs other) whereas communion dissolves them. Mainstream religion tends to emphasise with the former (worshiper vs God as a separate being) in contrast to the less popular mystical traditions which seek dissolution. People mainly seem to want to reify their sense of identity, hence the appeal of worship I guess. You're not going to have everlasting life if you've dissolved!
Yes, if worship buys everlasting life then there is an appeal there. But I don't mind losing my self. If my immortality is just to dissolve into what I came from (and I accept that may well be nothingness) and my physical reality is made into other stuff then that is lovely and simple and has a gentleness to it.
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Dear Berational,
The golden rule is nothing to do with Christianity.
The Golden Rule has everything to do with Christianity, it is where it starts, if you believe in Christ and his teachings, but I have already explained this and if you don't believe in Christ then that is fine, if you follow another path, then more power to the path you are on.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Berational,
The Golden Rule has everything to do with Christianity, it is where it starts, if you believe in Christ and his teachings, but I have already explained this and if you don't believe in Christ then that is fine, if you follow another path, then more power to the path you are on.
Gonnagle.
The golden rule predates christianity
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The golden rule predates christianity
Yes but it is still at its heart. When it is done properly anyway.
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Yes but it is still at its heart. When it is done properly anyway.
But it is at the heart of other faiths too so why pick one over another?
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Dear Rhiannon,
I think one concern that I have with trying to love people is that in trying to help we can sometimes cock it right up. Least harm might be the right thing to do sometimes.
Which is why it is a very interesting moral dilemma, for instance, atheism ( here's where I get into trouble ) how can I walk in their shoes when I don't understand ( disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods ) how can you disbelieve in something that is ineffable, something unexplainable, of course you can take the whole subject of God off the table, physics and evolution is all you need, but that just does not sit well with me, this world this Universe, us, are more than just physics and evolution.
So if you practice loving your neighbour, it needs to be thought out, it can never be an off the cuff response, although most times we do do the off the cuff stuff and we can cock it right up.
Gonnagle.
PS: Atheism is just one example, but I love it when they get all hot and bothered.
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But it is at the heart of other faiths too so why pick one over another?
Because we are all different. Ultimately it is what speaks to the individual.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Which is why it is a very interesting moral dilemma, for instance, atheism ( here's where I get into trouble ) how can I walk in their shoes when I don't understand ( disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods ) how can you disbelieve in something that is ineffable, something unexplainable, of course you can take the whole subject of God off the table, physics and evolution is all you need, but that just does not sit well with me, this world this Universe, us, are more than just physics and evolution.
So if you practice loving your neighbour, it needs to be thought out, it can never be an off the cuff response, although most times we do do the off the cuff stuff and we can cock it right up.
Gonnagle.
PS: Atheism is just one example, but I love it when they get all hot and bothered.
I don't really see how you can do the 'wrong thing' by an atheist simply on the basis of their being an atheist. But I've learned not to judge drug addicts or alcoholics and that anorexics and bulimics aren't just interested in being skinny and that it is so, so easy to say the wrong thing to someone who has been abused or who wants to kill themselves. Sometimes you can say, 'I don't understand, I don't know what to say but I am here' and sometimes you give them the card for the Samaritans because if you try to help you are just way out of your depth.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Agreed, we both have similar approaches, so I hope we can both agree that loving your neighbour needs deep understanding of our neighbour, another example, a Muslim, I need more information regarding that faith, what I have learned so far, it is a beautiful religion but right now is being hijacked by some very sick individuals, and just like Christianity it has its very bad and very good points.
Gonnagle.
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Dear Rhiannon,
Agreed, we both have similar approaches, so I hope we can both agree that loving your neighbour needs deep understanding of our neighbour, another example, a Muslim, I need more information regarding that faith, what I have learned so far, it is a beautiful religion but right now is being hijacked by some very sick individuals, and just like Christianity it has its very bad and very good points.
Gonnagle.
Yes, it need understanding, or a willingness to learn, an open mind and also a willingness to say, I don't know.
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I have a feeling, maybe I'm wrong, that you are trying to fashion the word 'worship' to suit your own particular interpretation which seems to emphasise the doing of good to others. In which case I suggest that the word 'worship' would be in danger of becoming so generalised as to become rather meaningless.
For the non believer worship entails submission and probably the fear of having to bend the knee.
Since technically ego is the king of the non believer, I can understand why the word is upsetting.
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For the non believer worship entails submission and probably the fear of having to bend the knee.
Since technically ego is the king of the non believer, I can understand why the word is upsetting.
All these casual insults must make you feel so much better. You do realise that humility doesn't really work when coated with a veneer of smugness?
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All these casual insults must make you feel so much better. You do realise that humility doesn't really work when coated with a veneer of smugness?
It isn't smugness at all. What does a non believer refer or defer to if not themselves. Is the non believer not her own last word?
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It isn't smugness at all. What does a non believer refer or defer to if not themselves. Is the non believer not her own last word?
Refer to - defer to - the expertise of people who know stuff, wise friends, artists, poets, writers...Jesus had some wise things to say, don't you think?
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Refer to - defer to - the expertise of people who know stuff, wise friends, artists, poets, writers...Jesus had some wise things to say, don't you think?
Yes, but isn't this the supermarket approach? By that I mean, aren't we shopping around for stuff we like.
Christianity is different. It starts with what is the troubling diagnosis that you need saving. When one is clear on that and makes a commitment to Christ one looks to Jesus for improvement through a dynamic relationship. Not through command adherence except perhaps for Jesus's commandment of love. It's a journey of discovery based on the light we have and the light we are getting.
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It starts with what is the troubling diagnosis that you need saving.
That is indeed troubling.
And sad.
Probably not for the reasons you think though.
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That is indeed troubling.
And sad.
Probably not for the reasons you think though.
You could explain but you've probably exceeded your personal allowance of words which allow you to be brief and pithy...(excuse me I have a Lisp)
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Yes, but isn't this the supermarket approach? By that I mean, aren't we shopping around for stuff we like.
Christianity is different. It starts with what is the troubling diagnosis that you need saving. When one is clear on that and makes a commitment to Christ one looks to Jesus for improvement through a dynamic relationship. Not through command adherence except perhaps for Jesus's commandment of love. It's a journey of discovery based on the light we have and the light we are getting.
'Stuff we like'' ... patronising, ignorant and small minded. Well done you.
As an aside we all know that Jonathan Edwards lost his faith. How many remember the Spirituality Shopper programme that he did? It concluded that pretty much anything can fill the need we have for something spiritual - shamanic drumming, zen meditation, gospel singing - and Mr Edwards came away from the programme looking somewhat bemused by the fact that Christianity isn't the one true way. I do wonder how much his experience of spirituality shopping contributed to his losing faith.
You're in the supermarket of life just like everyone else. You have found what floats your boat, something that makes you feel special because you *know* how shit you are while the rest of us labour under the illusion that we are generally ok. The 'troubling' thing is that you think that your myths and stories can save you instead of realising that we all have to save ourselves, individually and collectively.
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'Stuff we like'' ... patronising, ignorant and small minded. Well done you.
As an aside we all know that Jonathan Edwards lost his faith. How many remember the Spirituality Shopper programme that he did? It concluded that pretty much anything can fill the need we have for something spiritual - shamanic drumming, zen meditation, gospel singing - and Mr Edwards came away from the programme looking somewhat bemused by the fact that Christianity isn't the one true way. I do wonder how much his experience of spirituality shopping contributed to his losing faith.
You're in the supermarket of life just like everyone else. You have found what floats your boat, something that makes you feel special because you *know* how shit you are while the rest of us labour under the illusion that we are generally ok. The 'troubling' thing is that you think that your myths and stories can save you instead of realising that we all have to save ourselves, individually and collectively.
Saving ourselves? I read recently that we are back nearly to where we were at around the Cuban missile crisis and that was in 1962.
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You could explain but you've probably exceeded your personal allowance of words which allow you to be brief and pithy...(excuse me I have a Lisp)
Surely you mean that you have a lithp? ::)
I could explain once I return to this thread, which I will be leaving, indefinitely.
Au revoir.
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Surely you mean that you have a lithp? ::)
Yes er, whoops....Oh, Thit!
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Saving ourselves? I read recently that we are back nearly to where we were at around the Cuban missile crisis and that was in 1962.
Yeah, this is because we have good Christian men running the show. How is your god going to save us?
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Through a relationship with Jesus Christ, as Vlad has tried to explain. Remember:
.... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12