Religion and Ethics Forum
Religion and Ethics Discussion => Philosophy, in all its guises. => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on May 08, 2017, 09:17:00 AM
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Given the discussions yesterday about whether John McDonnell is a Marxist , perhaps worth pondering if that might be such a bad thing
https://www.vox.com/conversations/2017/4/18/15094788/karl-marx-socialism-capitalism-communism-europe-neoliberalism
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If Christianity is done properly then it's Marxist.
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If Christianity is done properly then it's Marxist.
How the hell do you work that out?
Christianity reserves it's its ultimate reward (eternal life in heaven with ickle Jesus) exclusively for Christians only. Other workers need not apply. Hardly Marxist.
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Act 4:32-35
32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.
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There are different aspects of Marx, the analysis of capitalism of course, and various historical events, but the early phase of his thinking became popular, as here he seemed more humanist, and less communist.
But Marxism often ends up with the old problem - who whom? Who is going to direct economic activity? As soon as you have a state in charge, you get authoritarianism, and tyranny. The Soviet experiment showed this, and I don't think anybody has come up with a new solution. But yes, I think he still matters, as he challenges the unconscious acceptance of social hierarchy, or top down societies.
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There are different aspects of Marx, the analysis of capitalism of course, and various historical events, but the early phase of his thinking became popular, as here he seemed more humanist, and less communist.
But Marxism often ends up with the old problem - who whom? Who is going to direct economic activity? As soon as you have a state in charge, you get authoritarianism, and tyranny. The Soviet experiment showed this, and I don't think anybody has come up with a new solution. But yes, I think he still matters, as he challenges the unconscious acceptance of social hierarchy, or top down societies.
Some of his dicta are generally wholesome ("From each according to his abilities; to each, according to his needs" -and hers, too :) ) Trouble is, he claimed his ideas were scientific, and in fact were sometimes based on schoolboy howlers.
Didn't Lenin actually promote state capitalism as an interim stage which he believed would smoothly move on to true communism? Soviet society sure as hell got stuck at the state capitalist stage.
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How the hell do you work that out?
Christianity reserves it's its ultimate reward (eternal life in heaven with ickle Jesus) exclusively for Christians only. Other workers need not apply. Hardly Marxist.
Jesus says be my brother.
Marx says be my brother or else i'll put you up against a wall and shoot you.
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Jesus says be my brother.
Marx says be my brother or else i'll put you up against a wall and shoot you.
Vlad says lying is good
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Vlad says lying is good
Citation?
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If Christianity is done properly, the ethos is socialist.There are small Christian communities that try to live in that way.
Marx said religion was the opium of the people so we'd have to forget about that statement for Christianity to be truly Marxist.
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Christianity transcends political systems.
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Marx said religion was the opium of the people so we'd have to forget about that statement for Christianity to be truly Marxist.
Indeed he did, but you are looking at that through 21st century eyes. In the 19th century, opium was used to ease people's pain and discomfort. This is most likely the sense in which Marx used this expression.
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Never thought of it quite like that before HH. He could have meant it the way i think you mean, is see it as meaning religion is a kind of salve or escapism with no firm foundation.
Opiates still used to ease pain and discomfort so perhaps still relevant today.
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The problem as so often with quotations, is their pithiness means they get removed from context. It's wort looking at a larger section of what Marx wrote and see that while he sees religion as being manipulated by some, he also sees it as a genuine expression of what people feel.
"The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo"
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Thanks NearlyS.
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Well done, NS. It's surprisingly positive about religion - I think 'the heart of a heartless world' is a fine phrase. I remember that the French mystic Simone Weil wrote that revolution is the opium of the people, but this is in France.