Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Anchorman on May 09, 2017, 05:52:10 PM
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This article jogged a memory. What now seems very unusual was once commonplace...dealing with a death in the home, rather than letting others take the sight of a corpse away. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-39843495
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One of my mum's grandmothers was kept at home after she died. She was embalmed and people came to view her. It was before I was born but Mum sometimes talks about it saying it was the usual thing to do. Seems kind but most people nowadays would find it a unnerving (as if a dead loved one would hurt them)_, Most have never even seen a dead perso,n.not even a parent. Death is taboo unfortunately.
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My dad died when I was four. I have a very hazy mempory of a big wooden box thing in the living room, while everyone ate in the kitchen or bedrooms for a couple of days. That was the norm right into the '60's, till the 'sanitisation' of death became the norm. Nowadays, very few young folk have ever seen a corpse at any time, or been in close proximity to a coffin, for that matter. I think the wake or spending time with the deceased helps the grieving process in many cases.
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I would have no wish to see the dead body of a family member if it could be avoided, I prefer to remember how they were in life.
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I would have no wish to see the dead body of a family member if it could be avoided, I prefer to remember how they were in life.
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Each to their own, floo - but I've conducted several funerals, and I've had relatives who were petrified at the thought of viewing their loved ones.
However, when their friends persuaded them to go to the room where the body was laid out, I must say that in several instances, the change was very evident - the relatives became calm, and at peace.
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I would have no wish to see the dead body of a family member if it could be avoided, I prefer to remember how they were in life.
The opportunities I had to spend time with my wife's body before her cremation were very precious to me. They helped me come to terms with her death.
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The opportunities I had to spend time with my wife's body before her cremation were very precious to me. They helped me come to terms with her death.
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Indeed, HH.
The first time I recall seeing an actual corpse (well, a modern one, rather than the Egyptian mummies), was, coincidentally, the first time I conducted a funeral.
The family had no church connections and didn't want a celebrant - they knew me very well (I'll explain why in a sec), so they asked me, though at the time I had no training.
This was 1994, and the deceased was - technically - my fiancee.
OK, we knew her time was short, and we'd been close friends for years, and her last few months were tortuous - so, with her family's consent, I gave Jane an engagement ring.
Her death was a release, and I spent hours with her - sometimes alone, sometimes with her parents - before the funeral, and those hours, like yours, were cathartic.
In a way you'll understand, they were healing - more so than the funeral, which took place in the middle of a driving snowstorm, and was conducted with haste - in case some of the mourners caught chills and decided to join her.
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Yeah, Hmm, errrr, uhmmm... There is something morbid about an open casket viewing... I found myself looking for the stitch marks under the caked on makeup last time.... why do we bury people these days?
Why not just scatter the ashes?
Death should be celebrated not mourned...
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Anchor said earlier on, each to their own, and he's right.
It does help people to grieve if they see the deceased, at peace. Plenty of people are with someone they love when they die anyway.
Wakes and the like, periods of mourning, help many people to feel supported and eventually move on so don't knock it, if it's not for you it's right for others..
We've done away with a lot of our rituals and customs, not always a good thing.
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One of my mum's grandmothers was kept at home after she died. She was embalmed and people came to view her. It was before I was born but Mum sometimes talks about it saying it was the usual thing to do. Seems kind but most people nowadays would find it a unnerving (as if a dead loved one would hurt them)_, Most have never even seen a dead perso,n.not even a parent. Death is taboo unfortunately.
When members of the family have died we've always been to see the body. It is weird, of course, but I always saw it as a chance to see them just one more time. Especially when my brother died, I just gave him a kiss on the forehead and said I hope we meet again in the next life.
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That's rather nice ad_o.
When women had a stillbirth years ago the baby was usually taken away quickly and not seen by mother or father. That must have been terrible, i think I wouldn't quite believe my baby was dead unless I saw him or her & I'd want a memory of the little one. That isn't done now, there's more sensitivity, they spend time with their baby.
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Thanks to Robinson I found I had posted a similar link. To me the dead bodies I have held were exactly that, dead. I can understand why there might be a difference for my wife, but also why that difference might fall on the other side as being even less than most bodies.
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That's rather nice ad_o.
When women had a stillbirth years ago the baby was usually taken away quickly and not seen by mother or father. That must have been terrible, i think I wouldn't quite believe my baby was dead unless I saw him or her & I'd want a memory of the little one. That isn't done now, there's more sensitivity, they spend time with their baby.
I had a miscarriage at 13 weeks in 1972, I certainly wouldn't have wished to see the remains of the foetus. I think I would have felt the same if I had carried a baby to term but it was dead.
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This is one of those issues that is, of course, intensely personal.
For myself, whenever someone has died I try to view the body. Be it relatives or friends. Not always possible with friends but I find it gives a sense of completion or resolution, I'm struggling to find the right word. I don't want to use the word closure because that is not right as I am not sure any of us ever really get closure over the death of a close loved one.
I do think the viewing of the body helps me come to terms with the finality of death.
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This is one of those issues that is, of course, intensely personal.
For myself, whenever someone has died I try to view the body. Be it relatives or friends. Not always possible with friends but I find it gives a sense of completion or resolution, I'm struggling to find the right word. I don't want to use the word closure because that is not right as I am not sure any of us ever really get closure over the death of a close loved one.
I do think the viewing of the body helps me come to terms with the finality of death.
I have never had any problem coming to terms with someone dying, even of someone of whom I had been fond like my maternal grandmother. I have never felt any grief.
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Thanks to Robinson I found I had posted a similar link. To me the dead bodies I have held were exactly that, dead. I can understand why there might be a difference for my wife, but also why that difference might fall on the other side as being even less than most bodies.
I've never treated a dead body as a mere item, or as an object of interest, NS.
Even when taking part in an OU summer school activity,scanning a 2000 year old Egyptian mummy of a girl who died in Roman Egypt, I was always conscious that what I touched, what I held, was once a vibrant human being, and felt both honoured - and a touch sad - that I was doing so.
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I've never felt the need to see a relative after they have died, nor visit a grave. Regardless of where my beliefs have been, I have always been aware that the person is gone.
At the same time though I feel deeply uncomfortable whenever I see dead people on display in museums, skeletal remains even more so than mummies. It seems disrespectful.
I find the story in the OP deeply touching. If I had someone that I loved like that maybe I'd do the same. I've no idea.
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I've never felt the need to see a relative after they have died, nor visit a grave. Regardless of where my beliefs have been, I have always been aware that the person is gone.
At the same time though I feel deeply uncomfortable whenever I see dead people on display in museums, skeletal remains even more so than mummies. It seems disrespectful.
I find the story in the OP deeply touching. If I had someone that I loved like that maybe I'd do the same. I've no idea.
- I used to feel the same about mummies, Rhi - that viewing them was somehow disturbing them, violating the customs of those who created them - but when I realised that most of the 'royals' on display in Cairo were actually only there because the Egyptians themselves had stripped them of their gold and unceremoniously rewrapped them, writing crude labels - almost like luggage labels - to identify them, and dumping them in 'cache' tombs to basically get rid of them, my unease evaporated.
However, since the 'mummy room' in Cairo was closed and its' occupants put on display as a kind of family tree in corridors - I must confess a feeling of disapproval. Yes, these were historically important people - some of the greatest names in the ancient world - but they were, first and foremost, people, and should be treated with respect.
Like you, I'm not one for visiting graves - what is in them, though the remains of someone I knew and loved, is not that person, whose essence has left the body.
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I was always conscious that what I touched, what I held, was once a vibrant human being, and felt both honoured - and a touch sad - that I was doing so.
Good that.
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My local museum has two anonymous skeletons on display underneath the floor, with a glass cover. They were found in a local medieval burial ground and serve no purpose other than to give visiting school kids something to be gruesome about. I really don't like it.
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My local museum has two anonymous skeletons on display underneath the floor, with a glass cover. They were found in a local medieval burial ground and serve no purpose other than to give visiting school kids something to be gruesome about. I really don't like it.
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The solution to that is in a local museum - the Dick institute in Kilmarnock.
When a Kist buirial dating to the lBeaker people was found virtually intact, laser scans were made of the find in situ - so that each and every bone and object was copied in exact measurement. The remains had to be removed as the area was being developecd, but the artefacts were recreated from the scans and painted to look as they were found on their discovery: the original remains being taken to store In Glasgow Uni.
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I've never treated a dead body as a mere item, or as an object of interest, NS.
Even when taking part in an OU summer school activity,scanning a 2000 year old Egyptian mummy of a girl who died in Roman Egypt, I was always conscious that what I touched, what I held, was once a vibrant human being, and felt both honoured - and a touch sad - that I was doing so.
It's odd, i can understand your view but it just isn't something I share.
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I had a miscarriage at 13 weeks in 1972, I certainly wouldn't have wished to see the remains of the foetus. I think I would have felt the same if I had carried a baby to term but it was dead.
You think that but you don't know floo. A three month miscarriage is not the same as a stillborn baby. A tiny foetus does not look like a little baby.
However I don't know how you could have avoided seeing the foetus - I too miscarried the same and could see it, small though it was. I didn't grieve over that, it had been such a horrible experience all i wanted to do was sleep.
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You think that but you don't know floo. A three month miscarriage is not the same as a stillborn baby. A tiny foetus does not look like a little baby.
However I don't know how you could have avoided seeing the foetus - I too miscarried the same and could see it, small though it was. I didn't grieve over that, it had been such a horrible experience all i wanted to do was sleep.
I was put under so it could be removed, which is apparently what they did in those days, no doubt it was thrown away. I went on to have a full term baby the following year, so no problem. I know I wouldn't have wished to have seen a still born baby of mine. As I have said before I have no wish to see the dead bodies of any of my relatives. I am not squeamish about dead bodies, I have laid out a good number in my time without it bothering me, I just prefer to remember relatives as they were in life.
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A lot of people feel as you do floo & here's no right or wrong about it.
I get what you said about the miscarriage as you went into hospital while you were miscarrying so wouldn't have seen anything. Mine was at home so different & like i said, i didn't grieve, just glad the pain was over, itwasn't like having a full term baby.
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I would sooner dead bodies were used for something useful like medical research rather than being buried, which I consider a waste of space, which could be put to better use. If cremated the energy created should be used in an environmentally friendly way to heat public institutions like hospitals.
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That's heathen.
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It's sensible Ad-O. I can't see any Christian grounds for objection.
Crematoriums already divert the heat they generate towards heating places, should be done more.
Thinking about it a bit more, Ad_o it's not that bodies are burned deliberately to generate energy, if they are cremated anyway might as well make good use of the heat produced.
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I would sooner dead bodies were used for something useful like medical research rather than being buried, which I consider a waste of space, which could be put to better use. If cremated the energy created should be used in an environmentally friendly way to heat public institutions like hospitals.
The problem is that the energy used to cremate a body, between 1400-1800 degrees F, uses more energy than would be released by the body if corpses were used as fuel. 'Since it takes two to four hours at temperatures ranging from 1,400 and 2,100 F, or 760 and 1,150 C, the estimated energy required to cremate one body is roughly equal to the amount of fuel required to drive 4,800 miles, or 7,725 kilometers.'
https://www.desmogblog.com/cremation-ignites-global-warming-atmospheric-conflagration
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Wow! Never knew that. Back to the drawing board then.
Eco-friendly burials with biodegradable coffins maybe.
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That's what I've opted for, in a woodland burial ground.
My friend told me this evening that her dad has just died. He asked to leave his body to scientific research but they can only take so many and apparently there are more people who ask for their bodies to be used in that way than they can take so he's being cremated.
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Wow! Never knew that. Back to the drawing board then.
Eco-friendly burials with biodegradable coffins maybe.
If we still have cremations, it makes sense to use the heat so it isn't wasted, but it's not in itself a green approach.
http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Renewable-Energy/Dead-Bodies-for-Renewable-Energy.html
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That's what I've opted for, in a woodland burial ground.
My friend told me this evening that her dad has just died. He asked to leave his body to scientific research but they can only take so many and apparently there are more people who ask for their bodies to be used in that way than they can take so he's being cremated.
I would like a woodland burial ground for myself too,not that I'll be around to appreciate it :D. Pushing up daisies appeals.
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It's sensible Ad-O. I can't see any Christian grounds for objection.
Crematoriums already divert the heat they generate towards heating places, should be done more.
Thinking about it a bit more, Ad_o it's not that bodies are burned deliberately to generate energy, if they are cremated anyway might as well make good use of the heat produced.
Burial facing East. That is the Christian way, expressing our hope in the resurrection.
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The thread has dealt more with the 'seeing the corpse' after death than dealing with death.
I have seen the deceased bodies of the babies, teenagers and elderly and not so elderly in our family.
I chose not to see my brother who died in January because I wanted to remember him alive.
It is the coldness and emptiness that I find real - I know the person has left the body and the shell of whom they once were
is now all that is left.
I did not go to see my nephew who was murdered. He was in the same hospital where my sister died when she suffered a brain haemorrhage. He died from head injuries after a beating.
I think the worse part of living is losing loved ones.
It is life force of whom the person was I miss most and whilst the body death it is just missing them.
The man loved his wife and did not want to let her be manhandled by strangers and that I understand.
Death has taught me that life is for living. Whilst we mourn our loss we should make the most of the time afforded us and live
it to the full. I have no doubt life does not end with the physical death.
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Burial facing East. That is the Christian way, expressing our hope in the resurrection.
A silly superstition!
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Burial facing East. That is the Christian way, expressing our hope in the resurrection.
It wasn't always the Christian way, having never been advocated in Scripture.
There are whole cemetaries of Coptic - Orthodox - Christians from the second to the fifth centuries who were mummmified and placed in elaborate cartonage coffins with a few bits and pieces - There was one next to the dig I was engaged in at Tanis - in fact we had to rebury a few who were buried on top of a foundation deposit, and they did not all face the same direction.
Also, in the Saxon and Celtic traditions which existed till the sixth century throughout Europe - and parts of Norway and Sweden, when they were evangelised - Christian burials were found facing various points of the compass, and evidence which confirms Christian cremations have been found in Byzantium dating to as late as the ninth century.
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The bereaved must be able to decide what they want to do with the remains of their deceased loved ones taking into account any wishes expressed by the person who has died. Anchor's post is informative about what Christians did over the ages but as he says there are no hard and fast rules.
Your post sassy is quite moving.
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My husband has always reckoned a used potato sack is good enough for my corpse! ;D
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;D
I think that would be biodegradable too, good idea floo.
There are cultures bury their dead wrapped up in cloth,think it isn't allowed here.
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;D
I think that would be biodegradable too, good idea floo.
There are cultures bury their dead wrapped up in cloth,think it isn't allowed here.
I am happy to be chopped up and fed to carnivorous animals.
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;D
I think that would be biodegradable too, good idea floo.
There are cultures bury their dead wrapped up in cloth,think it isn't allowed here.
http://shrouds4all.blogspot.co.uk
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Excellent!
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I don't fancy the idea of being buried.
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You can be cremated in one of those shrouds floo,you'd be doing the wild animals out of some meat but there's always a down side ;).
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You can be cremated in one of those shrouds floo,you'd be doing the wild animals out of some meat but there's always a down side ;).
Well when I kick the bucket my kids will have the final say as to what is done with my remains. I don't want there to be a wake or any fuss when I go. I want them just to remember how I was in life and giggle! ;D
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A silly superstition!
It isn't about superstition????
The Temple in Jerusalem had an eastern gate and it is believed the Glory of God the Shekhinah (שכינה) (Divine Presence) would appear through the eastern gate. There is a lot more to it and you can read up on it. Even our church alters are usually facing East. Because they believed the Messiah replaces the gate you have to enter by him.
Ezekiel 44:1-3King James Version (KJV)
44 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
Christ became the gate by which all men enter into the presence of God. So there is a lot of reasons why a person would be buried facing the east. I am sure you can look it all up.
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It isn't about superstition????
The Temple in Jerusalem had an eastern gate and it is believed the Glory of God the Shekhinah (שכינה) (Divine Presence) would appear through the eastern gate. There is a lot more to it and you can read up on it. Even our church alters are usually facing East. Because they believed the Messiah replaces the gate you have to enter by him.
Ezekiel 44:1-3King James Version (KJV)
44 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
Christ became the gate by which all men enter into the presence of God. So there is a lot of reasons why a person would be buried facing the east. I am sure you can look it all up.
Just because something is in the Bible doesn't make it credible or sensible.
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It does show Ad-o's position to be understandable from his point of view though.
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It does show Ad-o's position to be understandable from his point of view though.
But it still can be questioned.
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It does show Ad-o's position to be understandable from his point of view though.
But Ad-o and Sassy claim to be christian. This is not from the New Testament but the Old Goatherder's Book of Myths and Fairy Tales ... err ... Old Testament and so predate christianity.
According to Wikipedia, the bit which is quoted is about the incarnation and the gate is Mary.
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Harrowby, i get that but there are Christians who do respect and adhere to some OT laws and customs. From what i've seen no-one has said the practice outlined by ad-o is essential but there's nothing inherently wrong in it. ~To me & daresayto other Christians it borders on being legalistic but each to their own surely?
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Doesn't Ad-o argue that Jesus does away with the OT?
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I don't know Rhiannon. I understand that Jesus came to fulfill the scriptures but not to do away with them.
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I suspect the gospel writers created the life of Jesus to be in line with the so called OT prophecies.
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This is the Orthodox explanation of how facing the east means that you face the sun as Jesus is 'the Sun of Righteousness'.
Quite pagan really.
http://www.svluka.org/SvLuka/Teens/East.aspx
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Thanks for that Rhianon, guessed it must be to do with Ad-o's Orthodoxy & now I know. Somethng quite beautiful about Orthodox writings,to me at least.
Nothing wrong with it, he hasn't said it's essential to be buried facing East but is something he feels should happen with his body if possible.
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This is the Orthodox explanation of how facing the east means that you face the sun as Jesus is 'the Sun of Righteousness'.
Quite pagan really.
http://www.svluka.org/SvLuka/Teens/East.aspx
The rising sun is an icon of the risen Christ. Creation reflrcts its creator. And Christ will return from the East.
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The rising sun is an icon of the risen Christ. Creation reflrcts its creator. And Christ will return from the East.
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Actually, the term, from Malachi, is "Son of Righteousness
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Thanks for that Rhianon, guessed it must be to do with Ad-o's Orthodoxy & now I know. Somethng quite beautiful about Orthodox writings,to me at least.
Nothing wrong with it, he hasn't said it's essential to be buried facing East but is something he feels should happen with his body if possible.
What we do relrcts our faith. How we are buried is part of that. I'm not saying that if we din't do it a certain way we're doomed. Only that it's a natural thing to do.
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I suspect the gospel writers created the life of Jesus to be in line with the so called OT prophecies.
And what do you make of the Mishnah writings which claim that he was a sorceror?
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Coincidentally, I've been asked to conduct a funeral in the Church next week - the minister's on hols. I went, with a couple of members of the family, to the undertakers' tonight, where the body remains in the chapel of rest till Monday. The kids dressed their father - who was eighty four - in his favourite local football team stripp and put him in the coffin themselves. We sat with him for an hour brefore we left....for a drink, both to remember their dad, and toast yet another win for the team. Quite jolly, really!
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The rising sun is an icon of the risen Christ. Creation reflrcts its creator. And Christ will return from the East.
East of where?
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East of where?
Right of West.
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Right of West.
Where is west?
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Where is west?
At right angles to North.
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East of where?
An excellent question.
Israel is east of Europe. Japan is east of Israel. Los Angeles is east of Japan. New York is east of Los Angeles. Europe is east of New York.
New York, therefore is east of Israel. Christ will return from New York.
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And what do you make of the Mishnah writings which claim that he was a sorceror?
Never heard of them.
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But Ad-o and Sassy claim to be christian. This is not from the New Testament but the Old Goatherder's Book of Myths and Fairy Tales ... err ... Old Testament and so predate christianity.
According to Wikipedia, the bit which is quoted is about the incarnation and the gate is Mary.
HH,
Christianity, is not the faith it is an insult name given to those who believed Christ to be the Messiah.
It IS NOT a claim to be Christian but rather to be Jewish in that we are grafted in to the Tree so to speak because we believe
in the Messiah which is what the first Jews believed/believe.
According to the OT and the quoted scripture from Ezekiel it speaks about the Messiah NOT Mary.
If the truth be known the Roman Catholic Church is NOT the Church Christ set up and which Peter and Paul all preached about.
When the Romans hi-jacked the central belief of Christ they added their own pagan beliefs about their black madonna and child.
Then tried to centralise around Mary who whilst blessed amongst women was nothing to do with Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the great theme of things.
The true Church is built on two things.. Spirit and Truth through Christ Jesus. The truth about Jesus Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. All these gates and we know the only way to enter is through Christ.
Everyone has fallen so far away at times because of the teachings of men. One way only Jesus Christ and it comes by faith in him and his words from God. It has nothing to do with human teachings and beliefs.
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HH,
Christianity, is not the faith it is an insult name given to those who believed Christ to be the Messiah.
It IS NOT a claim to be Christian but rather to be Jewish in that we are grafted in to the Tree so to speak because we believe
in the Messiah which is what the first Jews believed/believe.
According to the OT and the quoted scripture from Ezekiel it speaks about the Messiah NOT Mary.
If the truth be known the Roman Catholic Church is NOT the Church Christ set up and which Peter and Paul all preached about.
When the Romans hi-jacked the central belief of Christ they added their own pagan beliefs about their black madonna and child.
Then tried to centralise around Mary who whilst blessed amongst women was nothing to do with Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the great theme of things.
The true Church is built on two things.. Spirit and Truth through Christ Jesus. The truth about Jesus Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. All these gates and we know the only way to enter is through Christ.
Everyone has fallen so far away at times because of the teachings of men. One way only Jesus Christ and it comes by faith in him and his words from God. It has nothing to do with human teachings and beliefs.
And the evidence for those assertions is?
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And the evidence for those assertions is?
Thought you had read the bible?
Even by general reading you can see to believe in YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that to believe in the Messiah
and the OT would mean you were in line with Gods Truth and what that meant.
You are honestly telling me that to believe what God tells the Jews about the Messiah to be true does not make you a believer in that God and faith? Where else did the belief in the Messiah come from?
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Thought you had read the bible?
Even by general reading you can see to believe in YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that to believe in the Messiah
and the OT would mean you were in line with Gods Truth and what that meant.
You are honestly telling me that to believe what God tells the Jews about the Messiah to be true does not make you a believer in that God and faith? Where else did the belief in the Messiah come from?
The more I read the Bible the less credible I find it. The authors portray their version of a god as a very nasty character, my god is bigger than your god. The things attributed to it apart from having no credibility, have no evidence to support them. Very few people living at the time of Jesus believed him to be the promised Messiah. The Jews are still looking out for it.
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Floo the Mishnah writings are early Jewish scholastic works which were part of the oral Torah and i think were among the first to be written down. Jewish people learned them off by heart.
Regarding finding East, a compass could be used to be sure of accuracy.
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At right angles to North.
..and if you stand at the north pole when Christ returns, in what direction will he be coming from? :-\
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..and if you stand at the north pole when Christ returns, in what direction will he be coming from? :-\
From the sky. ;D
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Sensible answer floo! Compasses would probably be iced up and useless :D.
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Fortunately the idea of the long dead Jesus putting in a second appearance is more than likely a fanciful scenario.
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The more I read the Bible the less credible I find it. The authors portray their version of a god as a very nasty character, my god is bigger than your god. The things attributed to it apart from having no credibility, have no evidence to support them. Very few people living at the time of Jesus believed him to be the promised Messiah. The Jews are still looking out for it.
I don't subscribe to your point of view. In fact, I see absolutely nothing to support your point of view giving that there has not been another god for anyone to say " My God is bigger than your god."
The prominent theme has always been that no matter the amount of good that God did for mankind they always threw it back in his face by returning to evil ways and idolatry.
Your god, is yourself. You really have not been able to see a bigger picture or any fault with humans or their nature.
You believe you and your thoughts are the only correct thoughts. Truth is you do not recognise your own bias and the 'me' syndrome. What is it about yourself you deem perfect?
I cannot fathom why you think you have it right when clearly the bible teaches us something far more than your boxed opinion.
Did you ever think about being wrong?
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I don't subscribe to your point of view. In fact, I see absolutely nothing to support your point of view giving that there has not been another god for anyone to say " My God is bigger than your god."
The prominent theme has always been that no matter the amount of good that God did for mankind they always through it back in his face by returning to evil ways and idolatry.
Your god, is yourself. You really have not been able to see a bigger picture or any fault with humans or their nature.
You believe you and your thoughts are the only correct thoughts. Truth is you do not recognise your own bias and the 'me' syndrome. What is it about yourself you deem perfect?
I cannot fathom why you think you have it right when clearly the bible teaches us something far more than your boxed opinion.
Did you ever think about being wrong?
Much of the Bible is no more credible than the Harry Potter stories, imo. However, I realise I could be wrong in my assumptions, I hope I am not, but at least I admit it is a possibility. Do you ever consider your take on matters of faith could be misguided?
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It's interesting to read about the various ways people of faith deal with death (Jews,Muslims & Hindus have particular pracices which are important to them).but whatever beliefs we have or if we have none, we still have to deal with death which is what this thread is concerned with, in the General and not a religious section.
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It's interesting to read about the various ways people of faith deal with death (Jews,Muslims & Hindus have particular pracices which are important to them).but whatever beliefs we have or if we have none, we still have to deal with death which is what this thread is concerned with, in the General and not a religious section.
Very true.
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Much of the Bible is no more credible than the Harry Potter stories, imo. However, I realise I could be wrong in my assumptions, I hope I am not, but at least I admit it is a possibility. Do you ever consider your take on matters of faith could be misguided?
Misguided, suggests that you HAVE a closed mind and refuse to accept someone can know there is a GOD.
It is nothing to do with guidance be it mis guidance or otherwise. You are the one who cannot accept you could be wrong because to be honest
you don't understand the meaning of FAITH and ACTION being the key to seeing.
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Misguided, suggests that you HAVE a closed mind and refuse to accept someone can know there is a GOD.
It is nothing to do with guidance be it mis guidance or otherwise. You are the one who cannot accept you could be wrong because to be honest
you don't understand the meaning of FAITH and ACTION being the key to seeing.
And equally, Sassy, your reliance on your personal subjections which cannot be shared except in anecdote, and your reliance on a set of completely unverifiable stories which frequently lead you to present yourself as the only person in step also present you as having a closed mind.
You don't do yourself any favours, either, by your frequent dismissal of informed views by others who have expertise you do not possess.
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Misguided, suggests that you HAVE a closed mind and refuse to accept someone can know there is a GOD.
It is nothing to do with guidance be it mis guidance or otherwise. You are the one who cannot accept you could be wrong because to be honest
you don't understand the meaning of FAITH and ACTION being the key to seeing.
People can BELIEVE there is a god, but it is impossible to KNOW for a fact one exists, as there is no verifiable evidence to substantiate that belief.
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And equally, Sassy, your reliance on your personal subjections which cannot be shared except in anecdote, and your reliance on a set of completely unverifiable stories which frequently lead you to present yourself as the only person in step also present you as having a closed mind.
You don't do yourself any favours, either, by your frequent dismissal of informed views by others who have expertise you do not possess.
My mind by the same reasoning can be shown to be more open than yours,. as I see all the things you fail to see and can do more than you alone can possibly know.
You are not willing to test what you think you know. Neither are you willing or educated enough to know how to test them, or what the difference it would make to your life if you did.
I don't dismiss out of ignorance AS YOU DO. I can dismiss what non-believers say from true experience and knowledge.
In fact I see more than you see... I know more than you know and I can do thing you never will.
With that having been said... you know I am right but you just cannot prove it, to yourself.
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People can BELIEVE there is a god, but it is impossible to KNOW for a fact one exists, as there is no verifiable evidence to substantiate that belief.
JESUS CHRIST...
Proof you can know there is a God and he exists.
Same proof and experiences those who 'KNOW' God have experienced.
You do NOTHING in order to experience anything. You speak from a place you have never moved from or searched from.
You are not in a position to tell believers anything because you know nothing and have never learned anything about true Faith, the Bible or God.
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Other people's experiences are just as valid as yours, Sass, and lead them to different conclusions.
Jesus was just a human like the rest of us, with a good side and a bad side!
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You are not willing to test what you think you know. Neither are you willing or educated enough to know how to test them, or what the difference it would make to your life if you did.
Would you care to illuminate for the unwilling and uneducated, exactly what the test(s) involve?
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An alternative disposal method
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/dissolving_the_dead
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No method seems to be without drawbacks. It's a bit of a bugger that being left for the birds to pick clean is no longer an option.
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No method seems to be without drawbacks. It's a bit of a bugger that being left for the birds to pick clean is no longer an option.
It may be returning with a day off
http://newsthump.com/2017/05/22/tories-to-allow-day-off-work-to-leave-elderly-relative-on-mountain-top-for-vultures/