Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bubbles on June 14, 2017, 07:16:58 AM
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Awful! Fire alarms didn't go off.
London fire: Flames engulf tower block
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40269625
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Quote. Nov 2016
It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.
Unfortunately, the Grenfell Action Group have reached the conclusion that only an incident that results in serious loss of life of KCTMO residents will allow the external scrutiny to occur that will shine a light on the practices that characterise the malign governance of this non-functioning organisation. We believe that the KCTMO have ensured their ongoing survival by the use of proxy votes at their Annual General Meeting that see them returned with a mandate of 98% in favour of the continuation of their inept and highly dangerous management of our homes. It is no coincidence that the 98% is the same figure that is returned by the infamous Kim Jong-un of North Korea who claims mass popularity while reputedly enslaving the general population and starving the majority of his people to death.
It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders.
We have blogged many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting:
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/
So the landlords knew, it had already been raised.
Apparently the authorities are unable to reach the landlords.
I expect they have done a runner.
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Another tragic event. :o
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Rose
Thank you for posting that. What a truly dreadful situation. I haven't heard that aspect mentioned on the news yet.
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It's horrible, the more I hear the more horrible it is.
Mothers losing children, so many sad stories.
The news probably isn't stressing blame ATM, as the human story is so tragic.
But it's also sad, that had someone made sure fire safety been followed these tragic stories might not have happened as they have.
There is a lady from the community talking about the Grenvill action group now, on the BBC.
People are traumatised.
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Fire chiefs are now saying something has gone badly wrong. There should be access for firefighters to get to the top floors and water on site. I am shocked not just by the lack of smoke alarms but of sprinklers.
Still in shock looking at this - I should think there will be large loss of life in horrific circumstances and many people left with nothing. I hope that there is a fund set up at some point to help.
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If, as is looking increasingly likely, gross incompetence is responsible for this terrible tragedy, I hope when they are rounded up they don't see the light of day for a very long time. >:(
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Corporate manslaughter?
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Corporate manslaughter?
Doesn't cover individuals.
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My dad's in tears on the phone. Proud Londoner. :'(
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Plastic cladding on the outside of a tower block? It's like polystyrene tiles on a ceiling, surely? Wtf were they thinking?
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Plastic cladding on the outside of a tower block? It's like polystyrene tiles on a ceiling, surely? Wtf were they thinking?
Maybe it was a cheaper option!
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Excuse me, that's taking your anger out on people you don't like anyway and I'm sure there is parallel stupidity blaming fridge makers, greedy landlords, immigrants cooking things on the floor.
Etc.
On the other hand I think this will turn into a 'where was......?" Thing.
Where have I said I dislike anyone?
And if I'm angry it's because successive governments have pushed responsibility away from them to faceless organisations within organisations where accountability is so hard to pin down that no-one is ever held culpable. So don't go accusing me of things that are completely untrue and in no way related to my posting.
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This is appalling.
It hasn't had a lot of news coverage which reminds me of the fire in a council block in Camberwell a few years ago. That too was only briefly mentioned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakanal_House_tower_block_fire
At the time it seemed as though few cared though years later, Southwark Council were held responsible.
The Grenfell disaster is far worse in terms of casualties and lost lives so will probably engender more publicity.
A terrible tragedy and quite scandalous that it happened.
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BBC1 has had live coverage all morning.
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That's good Rhiannon, so it should.
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BBC1 has had live coverage all morning.
And ITV, it is on Twitter and all over the internet news sites.
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Maybe it was a cheaper option!
Everything like cladding has to conform to the fire check rules, it was a half an hour fire check many years ago it must be much more strict now days, it must be at least an hour or more by now.
ippy
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Six people reported dead so far.
On another note, this doesn't seem like the right thread to be talking about whether God is to blame or not.
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Number of fund raising pages set up
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/categories/emergencies/grenfell-tower-fire
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Another link to the complete incompetence of Mrs May's government.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grenfell-tower-fire-gavin-barwell_uk_59410ecbe4b09ad4fbe45929?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics
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Corporate manslaughter?
Doesn't cover individuals.
Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation is not an individual.
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Another link to the complete incompetence of Mrs May's government.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grenfell-tower-fire-gavin-barwell_uk_59410ecbe4b09ad4fbe45929?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics
And their disinterest.
But things like sprinklers wouldn't have helped. There's a suggestion that a gap between the cladding and the original surface acted like a chimney. And clearly the cladding was flammable.
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Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation is not an individual.
Was reading your posts as following on from the one talking about individuals being locked up.
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Moderator:
Since this is an unfolding news story several off-topic posts have been removed.
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This is appalling.
It hasn't had a lot of news coverage which reminds me of the fire in a council block in Camberwell a few years ago. That too was only briefly mentioned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lakanal_House_tower_block_fire
At the time it seemed as though few cared though years later, Southwark Council were held responsible.
The Grenfell disaster is far worse in terms of casualties and lost lives so will probably engender more publicity.
A terrible tragedy and quite scandalous that it happened.
It has been covered by BBC and CNN all day since morning, besides other channels. It is a terrible blaze that has engulfed almost the whole building. Reminded me of the US WTC buildings.
Its not a small fire. I understand nearly 500 people (residents asleep) in the building could have been killed.
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Interesting article on the type of cladding.
https://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/sandwich-panels-and-the-dubai-hotel-fire/17407
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Nice piece from Newsthump.
http://newsthump.com/2017/06/14/britain-reminded-that-firefighters-are-absolutely-remarkable/
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Awful! Fire alarms didn't go off.
London fire: Flames engulf tower block
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40269625
I heard a plausible explanation for the lack of fire alarms in a building of this type. With one single stairway, a universal alarm would set off a mass panic which would result in an even worse situation with hordes of people trying to crowd down the narrow staircase. Likewise, localised alarms could be disabled or ignored (thinking it was just burned toast, or similar), even in a disastrous situation like this.
What is baffling is the fact that the fire was supposed to have been contained by each individual flat being effectively fireproofed, so the fire could not spread - and then the police could direct the escape operations with relative calm. That the fire was not locally contained is tragically obvious, and though the company in charge of fire-proofing has given assurance that all guidelines were strictly followed, somebody has got a lot of fessing-up to do, unless all the experts have misunderstood something basic about the laws of physics.
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Nice piece from Newsthump.
http://newsthump.com/2017/06/14/britain-reminded-that-firefighters-are-absolutely-remarkable/
Fuck me ... that last paragraph is a bit of a :o
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Fuck me ... that last paragraph is a bit of a :o
satire, speaking truth to power, is the point.
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Boris
https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/14/video-boris-johnson-telling-fire-safety-panel-get-stuffed-grenfell/
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news
12 people are now known to have died. :o
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Just reading eye witness accounts. The suffering is hard to comprehend.
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Word on the street - a lot of anger. First, if this had been a block in Chelsea, there would have been sprinkler systems, better alarms, more than one stair-case, and so on. Second, residents had complained about problems with fire safety, especially after a previous fire in a different block (Lakanal House), where the coroner had issued a Rule 43 letter, which warns other areas to improve safety. People said that Lakanal House was a 'tragedy waiting to happen'. In that case, the council were prosecuted. Another tragedy waiting to happen?
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The hotel fire in Dubai should have been warning enough. I still can't believe that flammable cladding is used. Wtf?
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From a week ago
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/election-tories-labour-corbyn-fire-service-dangerous-cuts-a7773826.html
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FTR Twenty years ago I worked for a medium size business in Greenwich (sixty people).
The CEO sealed off one of the Fire Exits because of "security concerns".
THAT is the mentality behind this tragedy.
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And clearly the cladding was flammable.
Sorry, do we have evidence for that yet? It did apparently pass a fire inspection before it went on.
There seems to be a lot of speculation on this thread. I think we should really find out what happened before we start lynching people.
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Quote. Nov 2016
It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.
Unfortunately, the Grenfell Action Group have reached the conclusion that only an incident that results in serious loss of life of KCTMO residents will allow the external scrutiny to occur that will shine a light on the practices that characterise the malign governance of this non-functioning organisation. We believe that the KCTMO have ensured their ongoing survival by the use of proxy votes at their Annual General Meeting that see them returned with a mandate of 98% in favour of the continuation of their inept and highly dangerous management of our homes. It is no coincidence that the 98% is the same figure that is returned by the infamous Kim Jong-un of North Korea who claims mass popularity while reputedly enslaving the general population and starving the majority of his people to death.
It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders.
We have blogged many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting:
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/
So the landlords knew, it had already been raised.
Apparently the authorities are unable to reach the landlords.
I expect they have done a runner.
Horrible to think residents weren't listened to - that there are no mechanisms to force local councils or private management organisations to take action to prevent tragedies like these. One of the residents interviewed on the news said they had referred the issue to their local MP but still could not force any measures to be taken to protect tenants.
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I think most of the residents were Muslims and blacks belonging to poorer sections. Very sad!
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I think you're rght there sririam. I'd like to believe that factor was irrelevant but don't think it is.
From me not seeing much on the news about it yesterday morning, it has since been all over the news. Just been watching the latest on TV, glad it is having more publicity than the similar tragedy in SELondon a few years back.
Here's a Guardina's article from yesterday:-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/14/the-guardian-view-on-the-grenfell-tower-fire-never-again
& today:- https://www.theguardian.com/uk
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Sorry, do we have evidence for that yet? It did apparently pass a fire inspection before it went on.
There seems to be a lot of speculation on this thread. I think we should really find out what happened before we start lynching people.
I didn't suggest 'lynching' anyone. Aside from watching it on tv, eyewitness testimony and that of fire experts (also on tv) that were describing the cladding as 'flammable', there was someone giving the general spec for the panels (can't remember where) and all but the very surface is flammable plastic.
It seems these are standard issue, so would have passed building regs, and used on buildings the world over. They've been linked to fires before and some have described them as a disaster in waiting. Maybe the fact that they were used to reclad an existing building is why this has been so terrible; the failings on the part of the management company, if there were any, appear to be to do with internal matters such as fire doors.
It may be global practice, but it still staggers me that anyone ever thought cladding high rise buildings in flammable material is a good idea.
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Much to people's credit many are rallying around to help the poor homeless inhabitants of the Tower block. This sort of terrible incident brings out the good in others.
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More about cladding and so forth here.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/disaster-waiting-to-happen-fire-expert-slams-uk-tower-blocks
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Frankly, I was a bit shocked at the way the fire was being put out. Though they say there were number of fire engines, only about 3 or 4 hoses were being directed at the fires which hardly reached half way to the top. I thought with current technology, they would use helicopters and maybe drones in whatever way possible.
Technology isn't always what we think it is, I suppose.
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I'd heard that the dry risers in the building weren't working. Source for this is eyewitnesses who escaped from the building.
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Sorry, do we have evidence for that yet? It did apparently pass a fire inspection before it went on.
There seems to be a lot of speculation on this thread. I think we should really find out what happened before we start lynching people.
No not a lot of speculation.
Whether it had a "so called" fire inspection before it went on is irrelevant, if there is sufficient evidence that that type of cladding is a problem ( and someone posted a link that says there is) it should never have been put on there in the first place.
Moderator: content removed
I guess some people will want to pass it off and cover it up. I.e. Don't rock the boat, don't question the status quo.
The blog by the Grenfell action group was written in Nov 2016, and once the official experts have assessed what has happened, heads need to roll.
People need to be punished!
Moderator: content removed
It needs to be used as an example to discourage authorities and landlords from taking shortcuts and not listening to the obviously serious claims made by the residents.
No more families should be burnt to death in a building that goes up like a Roman candle.
You just don't like the status quo being rocked, I suppose you would always look to " save face" of the people who made the decisions that led to this.
People should be able to go to sleep in their homes at night feeling that others have done the best they can to reduce risks.
With the way that building went up, the loss of life, and feelings of the residents before this tragic event, they obviously weren't considered at all.
Kensington is one of the wealthiest regions in the UK, and you can bet it wouldn't have happened in more expensive areas of it.
But these are " council tenants" and some even dare to be " more than slightly tanned" I don't think their " rights " were considered in the same breath as the rich suburbs.
It's not nice to say that, but we need to stop people brushing "other people's rights"under the mat because they come from "poor communities" who are considered worth less, even if it's not explicitly stated.
It's not just racist because it happens to " poor" white people too, others walk all over them.
I can see the attitude around me, let alone in Kensington. It needs to be discussed, so it doesn't happen again.
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Frankly, I was a bit shocked at the way the fire was being put out. Though they say there were number of fire engines, only about 3 or 4 hoses were being directed at the fires which hardly reached half way to the top. I thought with current technology, they would use helicopters and maybe drones in whatever way possible.
Technology isn't always what we think it is, I suppose.
And you could do a better job could you? ::)
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And you could do a better job could you? ::)
Well it certainly came as a shock to me that the London Fire authority didn't have a helicopter, Floo.
I think Sririam's points are valid and as well as looking at the probable causes of the fire e.g. the cladding - we should also be considering whether in the light of recent events that the mantra of 'doing more with less' so beloved of our austerity obsessed government is really any way to run a functioning modern society. We have the tragic example of this fire which looks in part as if it's due to a reluctance on the goverments part to act and also the recent terror attacks where a lack of community police led to a gap in intelligence with also tragic consequences. And let's not forget the £5 million Mrs May 'saved' as home secretary on not upgrading Windows XP in the NHS and the dire consequences that led to.
Incompetence on top of cuts in favour of greed.
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The question of helicopters was put to fire fighters yesterday who stated that blades would have fanned the flames.
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Well it certainly came as a shock to me that the London Fire authority didn't have a helicopter, Floo.
I think Sririam's points are valid and as well as looking at the probable causes of the fire e.g. the cladding - we should also be considering whether in the light of recent events that the mantra of 'doing more with less' so beloved of our austerity obsessed government is really any way to run a functioning modern society. We have the tragic example of this fire which looks in part as if it's due to a reluctance on the goverments part to act and also the recent terror attacks where a lack of community police led to a gap in intelligence with also tragic consequences. And let's not forget the £5 million Mrs May 'saved' as home secretary on not upgrading Windows XP in the NHS and the dire consequences that led to.
Incompetence on top of cuts in favour of greed.
Yes, I think all those things had an impact.
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They seem to be avoiding letting us know exactly how many people are actually missing or unaccounted for.
They reckon 600-700 people were in it.
They never say how many are unaccounted for.
Perhaps they think it's better not to, ATM
Just my impression.
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They seem to be avoiding letting us know exactly how many people are actually missing or unaccounted for.
They reckon 600-700 people were in it.
They never say how many are unaccounted for.
Perhaps they think it's better not to, ATM
Just my impression.
They probably don't know as yet. It may be impossible to know for certain exactly how many bodies there are, if the heat of the fire matched that of a crematorium, and all is left is ashes.
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I think most of the residents were Muslims and blacks belonging to poorer sections. Very sad!
You mean it wouldn't b e sad if it was only middle class white people that burned to death?
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I didn't suggest 'lynching' anyone.
Sorry, the second part of the comment wasn't directed at you specifically. I should have made that clear. I was referring to the fact that several politically motivated posts have already attempted to lay the blame at the door of various individuals.
Aside from watching it on tv, eyewitness testimony and that of fire experts (also on tv) that were describing the cladding as 'flammable', there was someone giving the general spec for the panels (can't remember where) and all but the very surface is flammable plastic.
But it's all speculation. I have read an article that states that the panels used are fire resistant and another article that says they are fire resistant but only if installed correctly by an expert.
it still staggers me that anyone ever thought cladding high rise buildings in flammable material is a good idea.
Yes it does seem completely crazy and for that reason I am going to reserve my judgement for when experts have determined the cause of the tragedy and reported on it. In my experience, if something seems to stupid to be true, it often isn't true.
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I didn't read sririam's post as meant that way jeremy.
It would be sad whoever was hurt or killed but might be significant that poor people were housed in an unsafe building & it's not first time that has happened.
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A close relative owns two apartments in a tower block over looking the seafront on the south coast. They were thrilled when they moved there, as the view is FANTASTIC. Even though you have to be well off to live in those apartments, I suspect they are concerned that the structure of their block might not be as good as they hope it to be. :o
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They seem to be avoiding letting us know exactly how many people are actually missing or unaccounted for.
They reckon 600-700 people were in it.
They never say how many are unaccounted for.
Perhaps they think it's better not to, ATM
Just my impression.
I agree and it worries me a bit. 13 stories left to burn away. Too high? Apparently a fire was still burning on the fourth floor. All that evidence being incinerated in a continuing fire. Police and fire brigade sending dogs in. Dogs?
I'm a little worried that hundreds of people will go down as missing rather than it being remembered how they were really taken. I'm worried of stories of how they may have moved away rather than the truth which must be unpalatable and involve a few people who are neither victims or victims relatives. Frankly for the first time I fear some want us not to think of the very question you are asking.
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Do you really need an explanation of why they need to use dogs? :(
Because some are trained to smell dead bodies, and many will be difficult to distinguish from burned objects, at least at first. It will make recovering the dead quicker.
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Do you really need an explanation of why they need to use dogs?
Because some are trained to smell dead bodies, and many will be indistinguishable from other burned things, at least at first. It will make recovering the dead quicker.
Yes but put it with all the rest including the LFB statement on a full search ''taking weeks.''
How many in that building knew that the LFB could do nothing for them if they were above floor 13.
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Shouldn't the dry hose system have got water up to the top floors? But it didn't work.
I'm not surprised it is going to take weeks, when compared to airline crashes, for example. It isn't just recovery of bodies and identity, but where they are recovered from. It also reminds me sadly of a car crash in which a family of five died; at first only four bodies were recovered and it was only relatives telling the authorities that there was a baby in the car that led to the fifth being found.
I doubt whether accurate numbers will ever been known, but the time taken doesn't make me suspicious. Rather the opposite. The more thorough the better.
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Surely the reason they aren't releasing approximate figures is that the authorities fear civil unrest? They will delay in the hope that feelings die down.
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Surely the reason they aren't releasing approximate figures is that the authorities fear civil unrest? They will delay in the hope that feelings die down.
I suppose porkies may be called for...but i'm also afraid it should be the end of the professional line for anyone making them not now maybe later.
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I suppose porkies may be called for...but i'm also afraid it should be the end of the professional line for anyone making them not now maybe later.
I expect that a lot of careers are going to end. At the very least.
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Surely the reason they aren't releasing approximate figures is that the authorities fear civil unrest? They will delay in the hope that feelings die down.
Why would there be civil unrest?
The reason they aren't releasing figures is that they don't have figures.
As for the time required to recover the bodies, it's probably going to take them some time just to make the building structurally safe. It's one thing to ask a firefighter to risk their life to rescue somebody trapped but alive. It's another thing to ask them to risk their life to recover a body.
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I expect that a lot of careers are going to end. At the very least.
I'd be extremely surprised if nobody goes to prison for this.
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I expect that a lot of careers are going to end. At the very least.
How about this one?
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/boris-johnson-slashed-londons-fire-services-in-2014-and-told-rival-politician-to-get-stuffed-6708609/
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That would be a start.
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I agree and it worries me a bit. 13 stories left to burn away. Too high? Apparently a fire was still burning on the fourth floor.
If I was in charge of the firefighters, with no chance of their being anybody alive inside, I would not risk my men by letting them go inside for any reason.
All that evidence being incinerated in a continuing fire.
I'm pretty sure there will be enough left to discover the cause. Think about the World Trade Centre. Both towers were pretty much pulverised and yet they were still able to find out why they collapsed (inadequate application of fire retardant foam to structural floor supports).
I'm a little worried that hundreds of people will go down as missing rather than it being remembered how they were really taken.
I don't think there's any chance that whoever is responsible for this will get off the hook.
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Why would there be civil unrest?
The reason they aren't releasing figures is that they don't have figures.
As for the time required to recover the bodies, it's probably going to take them some time just to make the building structurally safe. It's one thing to ask a firefighter to risk their life to rescue somebody trapped but alive. It's another thing to ask them to risk their life to recover a body.
I agree, but people are angry.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/unforgivable-local-labour-mp-vents-fury-over-grenfell-tower-fire
I also agree that there isn't a prayer of a coverup on this one.
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How about this one?
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/boris-johnson-slashed-londons-fire-services-in-2014-and-told-rival-politician-to-get-stuffed-6708609/
What is Boris Johnson's responsibility in all this? How about getting some concrete evidence before lynching people?
Oh, and the "get stuffed" remark was directed at an assembly member who accused him of lying and he subsequently apologised for it.
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I agree, but people are angry.
There's plenty to be angry about but unfortunately, being angry isn't going to make things go any faster. The last thing we want is for the recovery operation and investigation to be botched (possibly with more deaths) just because people were angry.
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And you could do a better job could you? ::)
You do ask some silly questions...Floo!!! And jeremyp...you too!!
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Theresa May continues to do herself no favours. When she visited the Tower block yesterday she only spoke to the Police and Firefighters, but not to any of the victims, unlike Corbyn. :o
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Can you imagine the reaction she'd have got if she did try to talk to them?
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Can you imagine the reaction she'd have got if she did try to talk to them?
Maybe, but she still should have tried, she is supposed to be the PM after all. I reckon it will be another nail in her coffin.
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No, she won't survive this. Everything that she does at the moment looks reactive.
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No, she won't survive this. Everything that she does at the moment looks reactive.
I think you are probably right.
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Can you imagine the reaction she'd have got if she did try to talk to them?
Why? Did she start the fire?
I think that Mrs May appears to be be controlled by incompetent public relations advisers. She has made herself look even more our of touch by not meeting the displaced Grenfell Tower inhabitants.
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Maybe, but she still should have tried, she is supposed to be the PM after all. I reckon it will be another nail in her coffin.
It reminds me of President Bush who 'visited' the New Orleans flooding disaster, but flying over it.
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Why? Did she start the fire?
I think that Mrs May appears to be be controlled by incompetent public relations advisers. She has made herself look even more our of touch by not meeting the displaced Grenfell Tower inhabitants.
She would be a focus for the anger of residents who already blame the Tories for mistreatment. I agree about the mismanagement. In a sense I think she's damned if she goes, damned if she doesn't. And that is an impossible position for a country's leader.
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She would be a focus for the anger of residents who already blame the Tories for mistreatment. I agree about the mismanagement. In a sense I think she's damned if she goes, damned if she doesn't. And that is an impossible position for a country's leader.
Sidiq Khan went, met local people - received a hostile reaction from some local residents but at least he put himself forward. It really does look appalling when the PM goes to the scene of an terrible tragedy and only meets firefighters and police.
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Sidiq Khan went, met local people - received a hostile reaction from some local residents but at least he put himself forward. It really does look appalling when the PM goes to the scene of an terrible tragedy and only meets firefighters and police.
Indeed.
TBH I think TM looks crushed.
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I see The Queen has visited the victims of the fire.
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I see The Queen has visited the victims of the fire.
Yes - and apparently May is going to visit victims in hospital, but not going to see the local residents.
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Yes - and apparently May is going to visit victims in hospital, but not going to see the local residents.
I see The Queen has visited the victims of the fire.
I'd have thought they'd suffered enough already.
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I'd have thought they'd suffered enough already.
That is unfair. You can only say that if you speak to those with whom she and William spent time and can verify that is what they thought.
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I'd have thought they'd suffered enough already.
That is an unnecessary and quite horrible thing to say Gordon & frankly Ithought better of you.
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I'd have thought they'd suffered enough already.
That isn't a nice comment!
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According to CNN a criminal probe has been launched on the fire incident. It also says they don't think it was deliberate.
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It never occurred to me it was deliberate.
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It never occurred to me it was deliberate.
I thought the source has been widely reported as a fault in a fridge in a 4th floor flat. The owner of that flat has been interviewed about it.
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I think the criminal investigation has been launched because the cladding used was no longer legal for use on a tower block.
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I think the criminal investigation has been launched because the cladding used was no longer legal for use on a tower block.
Not sure whether that is correct - I gather the type of cladding is banned in Germany and the USA, but not necessarily here where our regulations are more lax. The focus will be on whether corners/costs were cut which knowingly compromised safety.
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Not sure whether that is correct - I gather the type of cladding is banned in Germany and the USA, but not necessarily here where our regulations are more lax. The focus will be on whether corners/costs were cut which knowingly compromised safety.
Well hopefully the investigation will discover the facts, and bring criminal charges if people have been criminally negligent.
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That is an unnecessary and quite horrible thing to say Gordon & frankly Ithought better of you.
I'd have thought post-hoc visits by both an incompetent lame duck PM and a mega-rich elderly person who has had a long life of privilege at public expense is of no value whatsoever given the immediate needs of those affected.
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I'd have thought post-hoc visits by both an incompetent lame duck PM and a mega-rich elderly person who has had a long life of privilege at public expense is of no value whatsoever given the immediate needs of those affected.
TM I agree, but I think a lot of people would have been pleased to see The Queen (LONG MAY SHE REIGN)
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I'd have thought post-hoc visits by both an incompetent lame duck PM and a mega-rich elderly person who has had a long life of privilege at public expense is of no value whatsoever given the immediate needs of those affected.
Indeed >:(
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http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/reynobond-cladding-fire-deeside-grenfell--13195714
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473
I think they should be demanding answers a bit higher up than the town hall, like a house with number 10 on the door!
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I'd have thought post-hoc visits by both an incompetent lame duck PM and a mega-rich elderly person who has had a long life of privilege at public expense is of no value whatsoever given the immediate needs of those affected.
I doubt very much that it could possibly make things worse though, which is what your comment implied.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473
I think they should be demanding answers a bit higher up than the town hall, like a house with number 10 on the door!
Rightly or wrongly a lot of the decisions made were in the hands of the local authority, not the government. You could argue that the 'bonfire of red tape' led to this (although May wasn't PM at the time) but the failings by the LA weren't just to do with the watered down regulation, but in failing to act on the things that needed to be done and that could have been acted on - clearing rubbish for example, or ensuring road access.
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Boris Johnson accuses labour of politicking over Grenfell House. This man gives the impression that he can float above anything. Many careers will have bit the dust over this...it must be the final nail in May's and Siddiques. There is no reason why Johnson, Mayor of London until 2016 should get away with floating turd-like above this.
Source The Guardian.
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Sorry, do we have evidence for that yet? It did apparently pass a fire inspection before it went on.
There seems to be a lot of speculation on this thread. I think we should really find out what happened before we start lynching people.
Are you ready to eat your words yet?
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This isn't looking good.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-residents-kensington-town-hall-fire-demand-answers-protest-council-chelsea-borough-a7793906.html
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Why is this important?
There is much evidence that "the political decision to appoint inquiries into public crises is strongly influenced by short-term blame avoidance considerations, media salience and government popularity." (Reflection in the Shadow of Blame: When Do Politicians Appoint Commissions of Inquiry? - The British Journal of Political Science, Volume 40, Issue 3 July 2010, pp. 613-634).
An event such as the Grenfell Tower fire, with its clear implications of Government Minister involvement and possible culpability, requires an inquest which is truly independent of government; not set up and controlled by the government.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/an-inquest-not-a-public-inquiry-for-the-grenfell-tower-fires
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http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/man-arrested-for-opening-body-bags-and-taking-pictures-of-grenfell-victims-6709772/
:o
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http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/man-arrested-for-opening-body-bags-and-taking-pictures-of-grenfell-victims-6709772/
:o
If true, that is HORRIBLE! >:(
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Freedland in the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/16/grenfell-tower-rebuke-right-rampant-inequality
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Sorry, do we have evidence for that yet? It did apparently pass a fire inspection before it went on.
There seems to be a lot of speculation on this thread. I think we should really find out what happened before we start lynching people.
Ready to apologise and eat your words yet?
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http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/grenfell-tower-fire-investigation-findings-may-not-be-published-for-years/ar-BBCN4mb?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp
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I think the criminal investigation has been launched because the cladding used was no longer legal for use on a tower block.
There's a very real possibility that somebody has been criminally negligent. Maybe because of the panels, maybe for some other reason.
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I'd have thought post-hoc visits by both an incompetent lame duck PM and a mega-rich elderly person who has had a long life of privilege at public expense is of no value whatsoever given the immediate needs of those affected.
The Queen is our Head of State and I think it is entirely appropriate if she wants to visit and show support for the surviving victims.
Theresa May is the Chief Executive of this country and she bears ultimate responsibility for the safety of its citizens. It's very likely that the investigations into what went wrong will show inadequacies in legislation pertaining to fire safety. Again, it's entirely appropriate that she should visit the victims, although, personally, I can understand why she might not want to in the current climate of hate.
Your original remark was pretty mean spirited.
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It was OTT for sure. Virulent personal prejudice let loose. Disappointing.
Still it's over now.
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Are you ready to eat your words yet?
Why should I eat my words? I'm not claiming the panels were not to blame, only that we do not know if they are and we should stop lashing out at any target seeking to heap the blame on people we do not like.
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Freedland in the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/16/grenfell-tower-rebuke-right-rampant-inequality
E-t-M, it doesn't surprise me. The investigation into the fire at block of flats in Camberwell took years. Eventually Southwark Council admitted liability.
There is more publicity, horror and outrage at this on though so public opinion may demand quicker answers.
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An event such as the Grenfell Tower fire, with its clear implications of Government Minister involvement and possible culpability,
What clear implications that any government minister was involved in this?
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I don't think there is any. We don't yet know.
Indifference and sloppiness on behalf of the local authority, the planners and builders.
We will find out in due course.
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What clear implications that any government minister was involved in this?
I bet TM is wetting herself in case it is discovered, without any doubt, one of her team knew about the concerns raised appertaining to the safety of the tower block, but sat on the information.
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I bet TM is wetting herself in case it is discovered, without any doubt, one of her team knew about the concerns raised appertaining to the safety of the tower block, but sat on the information.
What are you raving about? If one of her team turns out to be culpable in part for the tragedy, she just fires him.
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What are you raving about? If one of her team turns out to be culpable in part for the tragedy, she just fires him.
TM is already in the deep proverbial, so she would more than likely get the blame, even if she didn't know about it.
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TM is already in the deep proverbial, so she would more than likely get the blame, even if she didn't know about it.
I don't see how it could make things any worse for her than they already are.
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One of the things I though was shocking was that the council sent a threatening letter by solicitor to one person when they brought up fire regulations at Grenfell.
This was before all this happened. They really didn't want to discuss it or have it discussed.
Not that they can stop people now.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-blogger-threatened-legal-action-kensington-and-chelsea-council-health-safety-a7792346.html
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Well Kensington council seem to be busy ATM, irritating the rest of the tenants in a neighbouring tower block.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-tenant-company-kensington-residents-legal-action-neighbouring-flats-ball-games-a7793966.html
You would think they would have had the sense not to send threatening letters though about ball games, while feelings are running high enough as it is.
Seems to me, this particular council doesn't have a lot of sense!
Imagine having members of your community die in these circumstances only to receive this letter a few days later.
Wow! How tactless is that?
:o
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One of the things I though was shocking was that the council sent a threatening letter by solicitor to one person when they brought up fire regulations at Grenfell.
This was before all this happened. They really didn't want to discuss it or have it discussed.
Not that they can stop people now.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-blogger-threatened-legal-action-kensington-and-chelsea-council-health-safety-a7792346.html
Sounds like another instance of conversations that few are a party to somewhere in the background , but of course, I must be mistaken, that sort of thing doesn't happen here in the U K, well, it's never happened before.
ippy
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One lady found comfort from the royal visit.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prince-william-hugs-crying-woman-10640862
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That's lovely.
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One lady found comfort from the royal visit.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prince-william-hugs-crying-woman-10640862
How sad that there are still people taken in by this royal mythology nonsense, it makes otherwise intelligent people look a bit dippy.
ippy
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How sad that there are still people taken in by this royal mythology nonsense, it makes otherwise intelligent people look a bit dippy.
ippy
An 'otherwise intelligent' woman was beside herself at the loss of her husband and found comfort from another human being who happened to be a prince. This 'otherwise intelligent' woman just hopes that I never have the opportunity to be floored by such grief that I make such a fool of myself in the eyes of the public.
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Just drove past the tower. A terrible sight, provoking tears, anger, disgust. It's like a tombstone against the London skyline. It seems impossible to comprehend it.
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An 'otherwise intelligent' woman was beside herself at the loss of her husband and found comfort from another human being who happened to be a prince. This 'otherwise intelligent' woman just hopes that I never have the opportunity to be floored by such grief that I make such a fool of myself in the eyes of the public.
I would have thought that it would be obvious and you could have seen that I wouldn't have taken this moment away from her, in those circumstances, but that it's still extremely sad the idea that anyone should become so attuned to such a nonsense idea of royalty as sad as the very idea of royalty is.
ippy
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Maybe this isn't the thread to be having digs at royalty.
I've complained to another poster about always grabbing the slightest opportunity to diss Muslims, he doesn't miss a trick, but there's no difference really.
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How sad that there are still people taken in by this royal mythology nonsense, it makes otherwise intelligent people look a bit dippy.
ippy
She still looks intelligent. Nothing sad about sentimentality for royalty.
What would be sad is if she missed out on a meaningful experience for her because she was worried about looking dippy to someone else.
Your dippy posts on this forum are welcome and that's how it should be - you shouldn't miss out on posting if it makes you happy.
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Maybe this isn't the thread to be having digs at royalty.
I've complained to another poster about always grabbing the slightest opportunity to diss Muslims, he doesn't miss a trick, but there's no difference really.
In other words you're saying you got me wrong? Is that right?
ippy
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Maybe this isn't the thread to be having digs at royalty.
I've complained to another poster about always grabbing the slightest opportunity to diss Muslims, he doesn't miss a trick, but there's no difference really.
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When it comes to ridiculing the institution of monarchy (rather than the individuals) I'm first in line to start.
But - fair play to old Lizzie and Wee Wullie - they did what that dismal apology of a prime minister should have done - showed a little compassion.
Had May done so, the situation would have been perhaps a little less tense.
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When it comes to ridiculing the institution of monarchy (rather than the individuals) I'm first in line to start.
But - fair play to old Lizzie and Wee Wullie - they did what that dismal apology of a prime minister should have done - showed a little compassion.
Had May done so, the situation would have been perhaps a little less tense.
Royalty is an absurd arachnophobiaism in this D & A and I've no time whatever for weak and wobbly Wendy, but I hope I'm fair-minded enough to agree that this is perfectly true.
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Indeed, I am fed up of the idea that this is somehow not political.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/west/kensington-chelsea/grenfell-tower-fire/mp-david-lammy-hits-back-at-boris-johnsons/
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Indeed, I am fed up of the idea that this is somehow not political.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/london/west/kensington-chelsea/grenfell-tower-fire/mp-david-lammy-hits-back-at-boris-johnsons/
A recent opinion column described Johnson as someone who could bring the building down and not get caught by the wreckage. If he read that article it looks as though he has believed it rather than taking it as a criticism. Johnson should not float above the state of the abilities of the rescue services or problems with the City he was mayor of till 2016.
By rights he should not survive Brexit.
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Volunteer attacked and beaten at Grenfall after being mistaken for official.
The perpetrator/s should be found and experience the full force of the law.
A jail sentence would be in order.
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Volunteer attacked and beaten at Grenfall after being mistaken for official.
The perpetrator/s should be found and experience the full force of the law.
A jail sentence would be in order.
DISGUSTING! >:(
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40327357
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Royalty is an absurd arachnophobiaism in this D & A and I've no time whatever for weak and wobbly Wendy, but I hope I'm fair-minded enough to agree that this is perfectly true.
I've never thought May lacked the ability to empathise. I think she isn't especially strong and her decision to run was cowardice, not a lack of empathy.
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I've never thought May lacked the ability to empathise. I think she isn't especially strong and her decision to run was cowardice, not a lack of empathy.
That's certainly how I saw it.
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.. I couldn't possibly comment
https://vimeo.com/222034879
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Apparently the cladding used on Grenfell was banned in the uk.
Chancellor Philip Hammond says Grenfell cladding was banned in UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40318318
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One report said the original fire in the flat on the fourth floor was put out and the fire crew were leaving the building when they were told that the cladding on the outside of the building was on fire. So was this a separate fire and thus how did it start....
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Apparently the cladding used on Grenfell was banned in the uk.
Chancellor Philip Hammond says Grenfell cladding was banned in UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40318318
He says 'it's his understanding', so that isn't a categoric statement and it's coming from a non expert on a subject he isn't the govt minister for. He may be correct but until it is confirmed by the govt, it's not yet clear.
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Good for Mr Murray
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/40341340
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Nice. I've noticed footballers getting involved too.
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Good for Mr Murray
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/40341340
Looks like it might not be that much of a contribution
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Oh dear. He meant well.
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Such a shame bless him.
He must have earned something from his one game, he can donate that.
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£10,000
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Conservative line now against grief being hijacked by protests. Whereas Conservatives would have us leave victims to be and forget about the whole thing. Spot the cynical manipulation of grief.
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Dear Forum,
Don't know if someone else has highlighted this but another mention won't hurt.
https://artistsforgrenfell.com/
Gonnagle.
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The restaurant/bar nearest to me is having a fund raising night for Grenfell Tower. I can't recall any similar nights that they have held for specific incidents. They have collections at their weekly quiz night and on occasion it will be for something in the news but this is a full evening of events. Something about this perhaps that high rises are so common has touched people in a deeper more universal way. In many ways, I think this is why the reaction from the council and to an extent from govt has been seen as so unsatisfactory.
As with all such things, it is impossible to predict any long term effects but politicians estimate this at their peril.
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Breaking news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40357280
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Breaking news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40357280
Great news, I had heard that a developer had offered flats but there were issues about whether it meant that it being a temporary offer removed people from the council needing to provide longer term housing. Let's hope whatever has happened here is fully backed up.
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I see the updated story is saying this could be permanent. Kudos if this us true to whoever achieves it
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I saw it on the news a bit earlier, it's marvellous.
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People at their compassionate best.
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So the cladding is combustible and there are 600 high flats with the cladding in England!!!!
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I think there was this naive idea that fire would never reach the cladding. Also the drive for energy efficiency/insulation seems to have played a part.
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So the cladding is combustible and there are 600 high flats with the cladding in England!!!!
That is going to take a good while to fix, one hopes there isn't another terrible tragedy before it is sorted out.
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Not everyone is happy about the rehousing
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/outrage-as-luxury-flat-residents-complain-rehomed-grenfell-families-will-lower-house-prices-a3570331.html
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/23/sajid-javid-grenfell-has-shaken-my-comprehension-of-being-in-office
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Not everyone is happy about the rehousing
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/outrage-as-luxury-flat-residents-complain-rehomed-grenfell-families-will-lower-house-prices-a3570331.html
And rightly been vilified for it. As has been pointed out, there was social housing earmarked for the development anyway.
What I don't know is if those who had bought their flats under right to buy also get rehoused in the same way.
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I thought it was 'affordable' housing rather than social housing that was the original plan?
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The flats where the victims were being relocated to weren't just ordinary flats, they had things like a gym and swimming pool which residents paid extra for.
Obviously the victims won't get that, but they weren't being supplied standard flats even posh standard flats hence the objections.
The objection was that they were " exclusive" luxury flats.
Those people would have objected to anyone being put in there.
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I thought it was 'affordable' housing rather than social housing that was the original plan?
You might be right. Even so, I still think that the objections are staggering.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/23/sajid-javid-grenfell-has-shaken-my-comprehension-of-being-in-office
That seems a pretty honest assessment. I think that in day to day management a cabinet minister's role is not to fuck anything up too badly. The tragedy of Grenfell is that it may well be possible that individual ministers and govts managed to not fuck up too badly but a combination of small fuck uos led to this. It is hard to then know how you avoid such thungs.
I think May is right that there is a need to change the attitude to social housing but that is an area where there have always been problems. It's difficult to see how you magic a change which avoids small scale individual decisions having a cumulative effect. It's obvious that for many decision makers, this will be a hugely affecting moment but how that plays out isn't easy to know. Iain Duncan Smith claimed a road to Damascus moment but that leas to grandiose ideas and the culpable deaths of many in his time at Welfare.
I read in Javid's comments a worry that we are just a bit shite at making relatively small decisions, and that this easily leads us to making huge mistakes in more complex areas. Dan Hannan wrote a piece, that I will try to find, saying that perhaps despite the tragedy, it wasn't indicative of some great evil, and he may be right but that then means the helplessness of inability to understand the impact of decisions reigns.
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You might be right. Even so, I still think that the objections are staggering.
Don't disagree but there is a habit of some politicians to conflate the figures of affordable/social housing to make it look as if they are doing lots. And by some politicians, I mean Boris Johnson.
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Here is Hannan's article that I referred to earlier. In many ways I don't disagree with it but given when it was written it is to my mind a deliberate choice to present a more nuanced version of the the hypocritical 'let's not politicise this' trotted out by those who believe they atye most likely to be found culpable.
I also note his own hypocrisy as regards expertise here and in the EU referendum. I think he's right that it would not necessarily be the case that residents need to have what they say enforced, bit wring to present that as the same as that they need to be listened to
https://capx.co/grenfell-tower-a-great-tragedy-is-not-always-proof-of-great-wickedness/
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So Hotpoint join the list of those in the stocks. I wonder how anyone living in a high rise with possibly dodgy cladding and this fridge freezer tells just now. My mother lives on the 9th floor of a high rise, but their current problem is asbestos!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584
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Coincidentally my husband (Charley/Chas), put forward the idea of a kitchen appliance starting the fire,was also negative about the cladding. I wouldn't normally go - 'My husband says....' but he knows about such things being as he designs dwellings which have kitchens etc. ftited before sale. He's been quite anxious about this terrible tragedy;tho' had nothing to do with Grenfell has raised objections in the past with colleagues at his firm on the grounds of fire hazards.
Having said that i now can't put into words quite what he said which goes to show i shouldn't try & quote my husband.
Old asbestos insulation is a problem especially if it is disturbed & releases fibres into the atmosphere.
The flats where the victims were being relocated to weren't just ordinary flats, they had things like a gym and swimming pool which residents paid extra for.
Obviously the victims won't get that, but they weren't being supplied standard flats even posh standard flats hence the objections.
The objection was that they were " exclusive" luxury flats.
Those people would have objected to anyone being put in there.
Yes they can't put themselves in position who have lost everything, don't even have a duvet or pair of socks never mind losing family & friends in indescribably horrible circumstances. Plonkers is too mild a word!
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So Hotpoint join the list of those in the stocks. I wonder how anyone living in a high rise with possibly dodgy cladding and this fridge freezer tells just now. My mother lives on the 9th floor of a high rise, but their current problem is asbestos!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584
Early eyewitness reports were that the resident where the fire started said that his fridge exploded. Given the poverty there I think it entirely possible it could have been old or second hand. Who knows? Testing seems sensible.
I think though that flats are supposedly designed to contain fire even if a fridge explodes. For whatever reason it escaped to the cladding and that is where the real issue began.
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Early eyewitness reports were that the resident where the fire started said that his fridge exploded. Given the poverty there I think it entirely possible it could have been old or second hand. Who knows? Testing seems sensible.
I think though that flats are supposedly designed to contain fire even if a fridge explodes. For whatever reason it escaped to the cladding and that is where the real issue began.
Don't disagree, but the reporting and company reaction is has an 'I saw Goody Hotpoint's fridge exploding' tone. Not sure if it can be avoided with openness.
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Sensible or OTT?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148
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Sensible or OTT?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148
A bit surprised, you would think they would tell the residents first before announcing it on the BBC.
Fancy finding out by listening to the news.
Do any of the councils actually TALK to their tenants?
They don't seem to learn ???
:o
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How would you manage to communicate with all the tenants before it hit the news?
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How would you manage to communicate with all the tenants before it hit the news?
Good point.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/25/grenfell-victims-murdered-by-political-decisions-says-john-mcdonnell
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Early eyewitness reports were that the resident where the fire started said...
Technically, that's hearsay, not an eye witness report. Having said that, I have seen video of the owner claiming his fridge blew up.
that his fridge exploded.
Fridges don't blow up. There's nothing in them to blow up. It may be that there was a fire that caused the gas circulation system to rupture which might give the appearance of an explosion. Or it might be hyperbole on the part of the owner.
I think though that flats are supposedly designed to contain fire even if a fridge explodes. For whatever reason it escaped to the cladding and that is where the real issue began.
That would only work as long as the window glass stayed intact.
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Sensible or OTT?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148
I don' think they needed to get people out of their beds at two o'clock in the morning.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/25/grenfell-victims-murdered-by-political-decisions-says-john-mcdonnell
That's not at all helpful. And also an outright lie.
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That's not at all helpful. And also an outright lie.
My thoughts too. But then he's a politician.
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That's not at all helpful. And also an outright lie.
I agree, they weren't helpful at all.
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That's not at all helpful. And also an outright lie.
Is it an outright lie? I heard the same said by residents, were they lying? It might be legally incorrect but murder in the sense of a culpable death has a more colloquial meaning. Why would be that not be applicable in a speech?
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I agree, they weren't helpful at all.
Are they not helpful in expressing the anger of many of those who survived, many of who lost lived ones? Surely their plight deserves to be voiced by politicians?
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Yes, I agree with NS. To say that the tenants had been negligently killed would not convey the anger, that people are feeling. I have heard the phrase 'murdered by austerity' as well. Also reminds me of Shakespeare's 'Macbeth murders sleep'.
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Of course people are feeling angry, but I don't think it was sensible of McDonnell to throw around accusations of murder at this stage. All the facts need to be harvested, and those responsible for this terrible tragedy held to account. If the crime of manslaughter is deemed to have been committed, they must stand trial and sent down for a very long time if found guilty.
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Of course people are feeling angry, but I don't think it was sensible of McDonnell to throw around accusations of murder at this stage. All the facts need to be harvested, and those responsible for this terrible tragedy held to account. If the crime of manslaughter is deemed to have been committed, they must stand trial and sent down for a very long time if found guilty.
he isn't accusing individuals of murder as an offence. It's using the colloquial sense as already covered.
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One problem for McDonnell is that his words will be inevitably misquoted, but presumably he has thought of that. It communicates the sheer outrage on the streets, that fire regulations were waived, and warnings and complaints ignored. Negligent homicide?
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In a sense the criminal charges could well be unimportant here! Given that all of the tests on combustability have failed so far, it may simply be that there is no central responsibility. It may be, as May had it, that it has been a symptom of how we think of social housing but even that might not be clear since there haven't been tests on privately owned buildings yet.
If there is domed systemic failure in how we approach fire regulation, then MacConnell's metaphor is accurate and is the sort of rhetoric needed to keep the pressure on ensuring change. Is it helpful to determining what happened, no. Might it be helpful to keeping the pressure on avoiding this in the future, yes.
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I think the Lakanal fire will be cited in various investigations, as here a fire killed six people. It was calculated that the cladding burned through in four minutes, and fire stops had been removed in renovations. The coroner issued various recommendations, e.g. the fitting of sprinklers, mostly ignored. This was 8 years ago.
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Pretty strong language as murder implies intent.
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Pretty strong language as murder implies intent.
In a legal sense yes, but as already covered this reads metaphorically, and from the perspective of the victims.
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In a legal sense yes, but as already covered this reads metaphorically, and from the perspective of the victims.
However the comment was meant it was unwise to make it, imo. It could spark all sorts of civil unrest, which is the last thing London needs after the terrorist attacks this year!
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However the comment was meant it was unwise to make it, imo. It could spark all sorts of civil unrest, which is the last thing London needs after the terrorist attacks this year!
So victims of the fire should have their positions suppressed because there have been terrorist attacks?
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So victims of the fire should have their positions suppressed because there have been terrorist attacks?
Nothing should be done to spark civil unrest like riots.
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Nothing should be done to spark civil unrest like riots.
Are you saying ppvictins expressing themselves are trying to spark civil unrest? Or that you think that more people dying in fires is a price worth paying because you think expressing it might cause a riot?
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Are you saying ppvictins expressing themselves are trying to spark civil unrest? Or that you think that more people dying in fires is a price worth paying because you think expressing it might cause a riot?
McDonnell is doing that, not the victims.
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McDonnell is doing that, not the victims.
I've heard the opinion from residents. If the opinion is likely to cause riots then you have to stop them saying it when interviewed. Further if they fi express it, why shouldn't a politician express it too?
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Over 170 years after Engels, Britain is still a country that murders its poor
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/20/engels-britain-murders-poor-grenfell-tower
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Are you saying ppvictins expressing themselves are trying to spark civil unrest? Or that you think that more people dying in fires is a price worth paying because you think expressing it might cause a riot?
Civil unrest could cause more deaths, there have been more than enough already!
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McDonnell is being very deliberate. He (they) will stop at nothing to get the keys to number 10.
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Civil unrest could cause more deaths, there have been more than enough already!
So anything you, Floo, think might cause civil unrest should be suppressed from being said?
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McDonnell is being very deliberate. He (they) will stop at nothing to get the keys to number 10.
Who said he isn't being deliberate? What does your ad hom got to do with whether people shouldn't have their views represented?
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So anything you, Floo, think might cause civil unrest should be suppressed from being said?
Nothing should be said, which will inflame an already volatile situation.
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Nothing should be said, which will inflame an already volatile situation.
So you want yo stop the victims expressing themselves, on the basis of the judgement of Floo. Have you ever thought that suppressing their speech might cause civil unrest?
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So you want yo stop the victims expressing themselves, on the basis of the judgement of Floo. Have you ever thought that suppressing their speech might cause civil unrest?
Since when was MacDonnell a victim of the Tower Block fire?
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Since when was MacDonnell a victim of the Tower Block fire?
Didn't say he was. But he is expressing a view I've seen the victims express. If you think the opinion is not allowed to be expressed, then that applies to the victims too.
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Who said he isn't being deliberate? What does your ad hom got to do with whether people shouldn't have their views represented?
Ad hom, hahahahahahaha. You're obsessed with that, you just love that phrase.
Can I not criticise a prominent politician without you calling it an ad hom. Ooooh next you will work in a tu quoque logical fallacy thingy, another favourite of yours.
I never said any one had said he wasn't being deliberate. Is what you did there a appeal to hypocrisy that just fell flat on its face?
There are people trying to keep the flames burning. McDonnell along with his Marxist cronies are fanning them as if there is no tomorrow.
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Ad hom, hahahahahahaha. You're obsessed with that, you just love that phrase.
Can I not criticise a prominent politician without you calling it an ad hom. Ooooh next you will work in a tu quoque logical fallacy thingy, another favourite of yours.
I never said any one had said he wasn't being deliberate. Is what you did there a appeal to hypocrisy that just fell flat on its face?
There are people trying to keep the flames burning. McDonnell along with his Marxist cronies are fanning them as if there is no tomorrow.
Aw! So instead of dealing with the fallacy, you just try to say that I point out a lit of fallacies, and simply use another fallacy.
And I didn't say you were a hypocrite so your 'appeal to hypocrisy' line is simply nonsensical. Anyway what has any of the above got to do with whether people shouldn't have their views represented?
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McDonnell is being very deliberate. He (they) will stop at nothing to get the keys to number 10.
Hope so.
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Now I have no evidence that MacDonnell's rhetoric helped the company to stop selling the cladding as has happened but at least they stopped of post what he said and, yes post hoc ergo prophet hoc is fallacious. But where is the evidence of what people , victims and politicians should be stopped from saying because of at the time of them saying it, non existent riots?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40409981
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McDonnell is being very deliberate. He (they) will stop at nothing to get the keys to number 10.
Why that is a surprise to you for a political party I have no idea.
Just as much, if not more is true of the Tories. Clinging on to the keys with cold, dead hands.
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In case of pedantry, in all the below, I am assuming the fire was not deliberately set.
Is it an outright lie?
He claims the victims were murdered. That is a lie.
I heard the same said by residents, were they lying?
Yeah, that's poisoning the well.
I think we can assume that none of them believe that the victims were deliberately killed and their use of the word "murder" was hyperbole. I'd expect more considered language from a leading politician though unless that politician was trying to whip up hysteria.
It might be legally incorrect but murder in the sense of a culpable death has a more colloquial meaning. Why would be that not be applicable in a speech?
See above.
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MacConnell's metaphor is accurate and is the sort of rhetoric needed to keep the pressure on ensuring change. Is it helpful to determining what happened, no. Might it be helpful to keeping the pressure on avoiding this in the future, yes.
No it isn't, it's dangerous nonsense. This is the mob mentality. What is actually needed is a calm considered approach to stop tragedies like this from happening again. Baying for blood is not the right way to go about that.
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In case of pedantry, in all the below, I am assuming the fire was not deliberately set.
He claims the victims were murdered. That is a lie.
Yeah, that's poisoning the well.
I think we can assume that none of them believe that the victims were deliberately killed and their use of the word "murder" was hyperbole. I'd expect more considered language from a leading politician though unless that politician was trying to whip up hysteria.
See above.
I doubt you have any idea what someone who has had family members burnt to death believe but lying needs intent and merely by repeating that you think there is or describing an effect such as poisoning the well, doesn't show it. Indeed if you think that you are showing it by claiming it then it is a circular argument.
Hyperbole isn't lying either, and you have ignored the difference in the legal and colloquial sense of murder.
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No it isn't, it's dangerous nonsense. This is the mob mentality. What is actually needed is a calm considered approach to stop tragedies like this from happening again. Baying for blood is not the right way to go about that.
In terms of investigation, as the rest of the paragraph you edited in replying to made clear, I agree that you need calmness but in terms of political will and getting things done, urgency can be spurred by rhetoric. And as I noted in the first part of the sentence that you edited, if there has been a systemic failure here the metaphor is accurate.
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So the judge picked to run the inquiry is already being questioned as to his suitability.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40438701
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So the judge picked to run the inquiry is already being questioned as to his suitability.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40438701
Anyone selected by TM to run this inquiry will be opposed by some.
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Anyone selected by TM to run this inquiry will be opposed by some.
Perhaps, but if he doesn't get the confidence of the survivors and relatives, it won't work. The problem is that in order to investigate the 'establishment' , we turn to the 'establishment'.
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I doubt you have any idea what someone who has had family members burnt to death believe but lying needs intent and merely by repeating that you think there is or describing an effect such as poisoning the well, doesn't show it. Indeed if you think that you are showing it by claiming it then it is a circular argument.
Sorry, I can't parse that. Please write it in English.
Hyperbole isn't lying either, and you have ignored the difference in the legal and colloquial sense of murder.
Please reread my post. I said the residents use is hyperbole. They are understandably distraught but a politician needs to be more considered. This man knew it wasn't murder. He is using the term for political gain.
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He is using the term for political gain.
I can only say that you seem to be unacquainted with politics, as in, that thing which politicians do.
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The problem is that in order to investigate the 'establishment' , we turn to the 'establishment'.
That is not the problem according to the story that was posted. On survivor said they need a judge of criminal law. This is certainly not the case - the police prosecutions will need and get that. Others have pointed to his judgement of a case of a single mother where he ruled Westminster Council could rehouse her in Milton Keynes. That casts doubt on his judgement, not the establishment in general.
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I can only say that you seem to be unacquainted with politics, as in, that thing which politicians do.
Whipping up a mob frenzy is the wrong way to do political gain.
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Whipping up a mob frenzy is the wrong way to do political gain.
It isn't "whipping up a mob frenzy". Nearly Sane has, to my mind, more than adequately explained why it isn't.
And on a purely personal, nothing-whatever-to-do-with-Nearly-Sane level, I'm not remotely convinced that a "mob frenzy" is always and in every last instance such a bad thing anyway.
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It isn't "whipping up a mob frenzy". Nearly Sane has, to my mind, more than adequately explained why it isn't.
Why did he incorrectly call it "murder" then?
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Why did he incorrectly call it "murder" then?
Because it has a colliquial as well as legal meaning. why do you keep ignoring that?
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Why did he incorrectly call it "murder" then?
Been there, done that. (Not me - Nearly Sane).
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While I applaud his honesty, I can't see how the inquiry can be successful if it isn't at least close to what the victims and relatives want.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40446579
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40461581
The Kensington and Chelsea council leader has resigned.
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When you start trying to stop transparency and kill expression, of course you are done
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I think in some ways the council were in an impossible position but it doesn't play well to whinge about it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40465494
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40471554
How generous of them. ::)
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Wow, the degree of mistrust now in the local area is becoming scary. It's understandable with the local council, as they couldn't be seen for the first week. But now everybody is being scorched up in this flamethrower of anger, the judge appointed to head the enquiry, the government, the police. I don't know who they are going to trust, maybe Lammy, but probably not even him. I think Khan got heckled. I would advise Mrs May not to go down there at the moment, without a very heavy escort.
People are saying that Kensington and Chelsea council basically exist to help rich people get their bins cleared regularly, and their trees pruned, and poor people's blocks clad in nice shiny stuff, so as not to spoil the view. Just a flavour of it.
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I forgot the local MP, who is working night and day, Emma Dent Coad.
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Some thoughtful and interesting comments from Frankie Boyle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyFZX39joSM
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Some thoughtful and interesting comments from Frankie Boyle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyFZX39joSM
A lot of this ties in with my issues with Samantha Cameron on the thread covering her comments about her disposable income, and the entirety of what has happened for years over Hillsborough and the complete and utter fuck up that has been the child abuse enquiry. It's not about a conspiracy just a generally traded 'truth' that scum are liars, and people not like us are scum.
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NS,
A lot of this ties in with my issues with Samantha Cameron on the thread covering her comments about her disposable income, and the entirety of what has happened for years over Hillsborough and the complete and utter fuck up that has been the child abuse enquiry. It's not about a conspiracy just a generally traded 'truth' that scum are liars, and people not like us are scum.
Quite. The causes of Grenfell are complex and the corporate manslaughter law is inadequate but, as FB says, all along the line decisions were made: to legislate for lower safety standards for materials than other countries have, to ignore people who said that a lethal fire would occur and even to threaten them with legal action if they persisted, to install gas plumbing in the stairwell because it was the cheaper option but not to install a sprinkler system etc, that were all cognisant that the extra profit also meant extra risk.
Only the people who paid for that risk were the tenants who were calling their loved ones to say goodbye as the fire worked upwards, not the scum who trousered the profits.
And which of those decision makers will go to pokey because of the choices they made? Don't hold your breath.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40739424
The tower is to be covered in a protective wrap.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40747241
Police reckon there is possible evidence to bring a corporate manslaughter charge over deaths arising from the fire.
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MMm
https://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/government-ministers-congratulated-themselves-for-cutting-fire-regulations-6713967/amp/#click=https://t.co/og8hfnvGC7
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And again mmm.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnHealey_MP/status/1019973505184686080