Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on July 06, 2017, 10:57:45 AM
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Hi everyone,
Interesting video about Japan and why 40% of youngsters (18-34) are virgins....and 64% are not in any relationship.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-40511655/japanese-young-people-not-having-sex Moderator more specific link added as original was to page that updated so did not necessairly have specified video
(Scroll down for the video.)
Natures way of reducing population or porn or women's lib or basic insecurities...or all of them could be responsible for this situation!!
Likely to happen in Britain sometime?!
Any views?
Sriram
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As Eliza Dolittle put it, not bloody likely.
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Oh...thanks Gordon....for the link! :)
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This is a phenomenon i am finding to some extent even in India. Suddenly there are many boys and girls in their late twenties and early thirties who are unmarried and apparently not interested either. Most of them are not having any girlfriends or boyfriends and not had sex either.
It is not yet 43% as in Japan but it might get there, I am afraid. Very sad and worrying.
I think it will be a global phenomenon very soon.
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Why are you afraid?
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This is a phenomenon i am finding to some extent even in India. Suddenly there are many boys and girls in their late twenties and early thirties who are unmarried and apparently not interested either. Most of them are not having any girlfriends or boyfriends and not had sex either.
It is not yet 43% as in Japan but it might get there, I am afraid. Very sad and worrying.
I think it will be a global phenomenon very soon.
Why is it sad and worrying?
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Doesn't sound sad to me. Most of them will pair up with another eventually, in the meantime they're enjoying being single and bulding up career.
Quite sensible.
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Here is the Guardian's approach to the same topic, published a few years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex
I won't comment about the Indian sex-ratio imbalance (it's not really relevant, I and don't want to raise Sriram's blood pressure) but I wonder whether what we are seeing is not a biological consequence of gross overcrowding? The population density of Japan is already about half again that of the United Kingdom (if the total landmass is considered) but the great majority of Japanese live in a narrow strip by the coastline. This results in very dense urban regions - Greater Tokyo approaches 40,000,000.
I recall (almost half a century ago) as a Psychology undergraduate learning of observations of pathological behaviour in rats which were forced to live in overcrowded colonies. Perhaps the reluctance to engage in behaviour likely to lead to reproduction is psychogenic or even biogenic. I don't know, but perhaps it may be a consequence of, say, high levels of specific pheromones, which cause a suppression of sexual behaviour?
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Here is the Guardian's approach to the same topic, published a few years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/20/young-people-japan-stopped-having-sex
I won't comment about the Indian sex-ratio imbalance (it's not really relevant, I and don't want to raise Sriram's blood pressure) but I wonder whether what we are seeing is not a biological consequence of gross overcrowding? The population density of Japan is already about half again that of the United Kingdom (if the total landmass is considered) but the great majority of Japanese live in a narrow strip by the coastline. This results in very dense urban regions - Greater Tokyo approaches 40,000,000.
I recall (almost half a century ago) as a Psychology undergraduate learning of observations of pathological behaviour in rats which were forced to live in overcrowded colonies. Perhaps the reluctance to engage in behaviour likely to lead to reproduction is psychogenic or even biogenic. I don't know, but perhaps it may be a consequence of, say, high levels of specific pheromones, which cause a suppression of sexual behaviour?
HH,
I really don't know why you even mentioned the sex ratio on this subject. If you imagine that men are not finding women to marry or something of that sort...that is absolutely nonsense. The sex ratio is skewed only in some small villages in the north and not in the country as a whole, though it could be lower, no doubt.
The average sex ratio for India (15-24 years) is about 1.13 males to 1 female. In China it is 1.14. Portugal at 1.13. In Japan it is 1.11. In the UK and US it is 1.05. In some European countries it is as high as 1.19.
So...nothing as alarming as 'not finding females to marry' or anything of that sort (if that is what you are implying).
There are plenty of boys and girls of marriageable age but many of them seem to be avoiding marriage, though it is nowhere near 43%.
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Well...the bug seems to have invaded Britain too since no one here seems to feel it is anything to worry about.
As far as I and many Indians are concerned, Life is primarily about marrying and raising a family. A job or career is meant as a means of livelihood meant to support a family and not as an end in itself. Both from a personal perspective and from a social perspective the family is most important.
How can a career ever be an alternative to marriage and family?!!!
To see youngsters preferring to stay single when they should be having a family unit of their own, is very sad indeed. Population control is about limiting the family size, not about remaining celibate. So the population aspect also does not make sense.
Yes...it is sad that 25 years from now many of these people in their old age will remain single never having had a family of their own.
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Sriram bhaiya
Are you about 70 now?!!? ;)
Why do you feel as humans we must breed & carry on the human race??? Not enough of us or are we all being killed off with wars & such.??
You know very well about my travelling to & personal links with India & having so many friends out there now. Nobody has ever talked about his sort of thing when I've been there.
How can a career ever be an alternative to marriage and family?!!!....
May I feel you were being ironic or brainwashed ??? ;) SHOULD be having a family ???? Excuse me?? You also say MANY Indians feel like you. Do you have a number?
Nick
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Well...the bug seems to have invaded Britain too since no one here seems to feel it is anything to worry about.
As far as I and many Indians are concerned, Life is primarily about marrying and raising a family. A job or career is meant as a means of livelihood meant to support a family and not as an end in itself. Both from a personal perspective and from a social perspective the family is most important.
How can a career ever be an alternative to marriage and family?!!!
To see youngsters preferring to stay single when they should be having a family unit of their own, is very sad indeed. Population control is about limiting the family size, not about remaining celibate. So the population aspect also does not make sense.
Yes...it is sad that 25 years from now many of these people in their old age will remain single never having had a family of their own.
I don't know about Japan but it's pretty expensive to get married and raise a family in the UK and with the added increased risk of relationships being unhappy or breaking down altogether and the emotional and financial costs of that, I can understand why some young people are reluctant to commit to the whole family and marriage idea.
The video you linked to seemed to show some young people in Japan feeling that the costs of starting or being in a relationship - trauma of rejection and restriction of freedom - outweighs the benefits of companionship and sex and family life. Maybe their parents' generation were more emotionally robust, less discerning, didn't mind the drudgery, had fewer options, or maybe their cost of living and future prospects and expectations were such that relationships did not have the risks attached that scare off some of the younger generation today.
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I think that the pressured work culture in Japan probably is a factor. If you are quite literally in danger of working yourself to death then not only will you be less robust emotionally if things start to crater, you don't have the emotional and physical resources to get involved in a relationship to start with.
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Sriram
You just can't resist rising to the bait, can you! You perceive an insult and reach for knuckledusters. I note that the figures you select come from a Wikipedia article which is headed with a warning that it may not be reliable and needs updating. And that was in October 2014.
Even so, you are still selective. The possibly unreliable article states that the birth ratio F:M in India is 1.12 and in China is 1:1.15. However, Japan it is 1:1.06 and Portugal 1:1.07.
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Be that as it may, I find your statement "Life is primarily about marrying and raising a family." rather touching and very human. I cannot think of anyone who would basically disagree with that. I think though that by blaming the career culture by itself may not be sufficient to explain the reluctance to marry.
My view about the sex drive in homo sapiens is that its primary purpose is not reproduction per se but creating a stable relationship within which the human infant, with its extraordinarily lengthy period of dependency, can be raised in safety. The behaviour described in Japan is - frankly - pathological. Young people appear to be rejecting opportunities to associate and become physically and emotionally close. I don't think that commitment to a career is the reason for this, I consider that it is possible that some environmental factor may be interfering with the sex (in its widest sense) drive. Perhaps (although I am not aware of any convincing evidence that pheromones are important inhuman behave) that the sheer variety and density of human sex pheromones is suppressing the sex drive in many individuals - well, it's a hypothesis.
I have visited Japan on several occasions and I love the place. But the human density is terrifying - watch the behaviour of commuters at Shinjuku or Ikebukuru stations: people behave like automatons. Perhaps other aspects of social behaviour are affected as well.
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To see youngsters preferring to stay single when they should be having a family unit of their own, is very sad indeed.
There's no 'should' about it.
What's genuinely sad is that people might feel pressured into adopting a lifestyle of enormous responsibility and long-term colossal expense that they don't want because some idiot thinks they should do.
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Shaker
EXACTLY !!!! ;)
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I recall (almost half a century ago) as a Psychology undergraduate learning of observations of pathological behaviour in rats which were forced to live in overcrowded colonies. Perhaps the reluctance to engage in behaviour likely to lead to reproduction is psychogenic or even biogenic. I don't know, but perhaps it may be a consequence of, say, high levels of specific pheromones, which cause a suppression of sexual behaviour?
You're probably referring to John Calhoun's experiments with rodents, the results summed up as:
"Males became aggressive, some moving in groups, attacking females and the young. Mating behaviours were disrupted. Some males became exclusively homosexual. Others became pansexual and hypersexual, attempting to mount any rat they encountered. Mothers neglected their infants, first failing to construct proper nests, and then carelessly abandoning and even attacking their pups. In certain sections of the pens, infant mortality rose as high as 96%, the dead cannibalized by adults. Subordinate animals withdrew psychologically, surviving in a physical sense but at an immense psychological cost. They were the majority in the late phases of growth, existing as a vacant, huddled mass in the centre of the pens. Unable to breed, the population plummeted and did not recover. The crowded rodents had lost the ability to co-exist harmoniously, even after the population numbers once again fell to low levels. At a certain density, they had ceased to act like rats and mice, and the change was permanent. "
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Ekim
Thank you.
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Sriram
You just can't resist rising to the bait, can you! You perceive an insult and reach for knuckledusters. I note that the figures you select come from a Wikipedia article which is headed with a warning that it may not be reliable and needs updating. And that was in October 2014.
Even so, you are still selective. The possibly unreliable article states that the birth ratio F:M in India is 1.12 and in China is 1:1.15. However, Japan it is 1:1.06 and Portugal 1:1.07.
* * * * * *
Be that as it may, I find your statement "Life is primarily about marrying and raising a family." rather touching and very human. I cannot think of anyone who would not basically disagree with that. I think though that by blaming the career culture by itself may not be sufficient to explain the reluctance to marry.
My view about the sex drive in homo sapiens is that its primary purpose is not reproduction per se but creating a stable relationship within which the human infant, with its extraordinarily lengthy period of dependency, can be raised in safety. The behaviour described in Japan is - frankly - pathological. Young people appear to be rejecting opportunities to associate and become physically and emotionally close. I don't think that commitment to a career is the reason for this, I consider that it is possible that some environmental factor may be interfering with the sex (in its widest sense) drive. Perhaps (although I am not aware of any convincing evidence that pheromones are important inhuman behave) that the sheer variety and density of human sex pheromones is suppressing the sex drive in many individuals - well, it's a hypothesis.
I have visited Japan on several occasions and I love the place. But the human density is terrifying - watch the behaviour of commuters at Shinjuku or Ikebukuru stations: people behave like automatons. Perhaps other aspects of social behaviour are affected as well.
I don't want you feeling ignored HH! ;) I was referring to the figures in the age group 15-24. I don't know which group you are referring to.
Your third para has so many negatives I am not sure what you mean..
Yes...the reasons for not wanting to have sex could be due to the population density, emotional insecurities, job pressures and perhaps many other factors. Whatever they are, it is still a pity IMO.
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You're probably referring to John Calhoun's experiments with rodents, the results summed up as:
"Males became aggressive, some moving in groups, attacking females and the young. Mating behaviours were disrupted. Some males became exclusively homosexual. Others became pansexual and hypersexual, attempting to mount any rat they encountered. Mothers neglected their infants, first failing to construct proper nests, and then carelessly abandoning and even attacking their pups. In certain sections of the pens, infant mortality rose as high as 96%, the dead cannibalized by adults. Subordinate animals withdrew psychologically, surviving in a physical sense but at an immense psychological cost. They were the majority in the late phases of growth, existing as a vacant, huddled mass in the centre of the pens. Unable to breed, the population plummeted and did not recover. The crowded rodents had lost the ability to co-exist harmoniously, even after the population numbers once again fell to low levels. At a certain density, they had ceased to act like rats and mice, and the change was permanent. "
Thanks ekim. I think some scientist had pointed to this study some years ago and said that such a situation is likely to occur in humans...though I think many disagreed at that time. He has been proved correct I think.
I am surprised that many in Britain seem to find this situation quite acceptable. That is amazing considering the population is not very high.
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I don't know about Japan but it's pretty expensive to get married and raise a family in the UK and with the added increased risk of relationships being unhappy or breaking down altogether and the emotional and financial costs of that, I can understand why some young people are reluctant to commit to the whole family and marriage idea.
The video you linked to seemed to show some young people in Japan feeling that the costs of starting or being in a relationship - trauma of rejection and restriction of freedom - outweighs the benefits of companionship and sex and family life. Maybe their parents' generation were more emotionally robust, less discerning, didn't mind the drudgery, had fewer options, or maybe their cost of living and future prospects and expectations were such that relationships did not have the risks attached that scare off some of the younger generation today.
Hi Gabriella,
Getting married and raising a family has always been expensive,I suppose. But that did not stop people (even the poorest) from getting married and having a family.
Anyway, whatever the reason, I find the current situation in Japan (and possibly other places) rather unfortunate.
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Thanks ekim. I think some scientist had pointed to this study some years ago and said that such a situation is likely to occur in humans...though I think many disagreed at that time. He has been proved correct I think.
I am surprised that many in Britain seem to find this situation quite acceptable. That is amazing considering the population is not very high.
I give in, what does your last sentence mean? It seems to imply that population density is something that shouldn't be considered in some competition for countries to have the most people but that seems too absurd for anyone to have said.
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You were right about the plurality of negatives, Sriram. I have removed one of them. Thank you.
I think, NS, that Sriram finds it difficult to refrain from having a pop at his country's former Imperial overlords. I suspect that it is inconceivable to him that there should be anyone living in England whose heart does not fill with pride when they hear of the "Empire on which the sun never sets." As if ........
He seems to be of the opinion that the island of Great Britain is overcrowded. When last I looked, its rank was 51 in the list of world population densities.
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You were right about the plurality of negatives, Sriram. I have removed one of them. Thank you.
I think, NS, that Sriram finds it difficult to refrain from having a pop at his country's former Imperial overlords. I suspect that it is inconceivable to him that there should be anyone living in England whose heart does not fill with pride when they hear of the "Empire on which the sun never sets." As if ........
He seems to be of the opinion that the island of Great Britain is overcrowded. When last I looked, its rank was 51 in the list of world population densities.
My reading was he thought it wasn't crowded enough and that we need more people because somehow having a bigger population is important.
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You were right about the plurality of negatives, Sriram. I have removed one of them. Thank you.
I think, NS, that Sriram finds it difficult to refrain from having a pop at his country's former Imperial overlords. I suspect that it is inconceivable to him that there should be anyone living in England whose heart does not fill with pride when they hear of the "Empire on which the sun never sets." As if ........
He seems to be of the opinion that the island of Great Britain is overcrowded. When last I looked, its rank was 51 in the list of world population densities.
I am saying the opposite HH. ::)
I am saying that Britain is not so over crowded that the mechanisms that ekim has mentioned should be set in motion there. So it is surprising that people in Britain don't find the Japan experience unusual.
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I am saying the opposite HH. ::)
I am saying that Britain is not so over crowded that the mechanisms that ekim has mentioned should be set in motion there. So it is surprising that people in Britain don't find the Japan experience unusual.
I think you are misinterpreting here that people don't think something scary or sad, is not the same as thinking it us usual. Plus it's worth noting that while Britain is 'relatively' low down in population density, England isn't.
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Sorry - I got hold of the wrong end of Sriram's stick!
I actually do side with him. (As I write, the Radio4 PM problem is doing an item on Japan and no sex.)
I'm probably with Sriram here. My 33 years of marriage were the most fulfilling and precious of my life.
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Sorry - I got hold of the wrong end of Sriram's stick!
I actually do side with him. (As I write, the Radio4 PM problem is doing an item on Japan and no sex.)
I'm probably with Sriram here. My 33 years of marriage were the most fulfilling and precious of my life.
Agree about marriage and family. :)
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Other people's mileage may vary.
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Sorry - I got hold of the wrong end of Sriram's stick!
I actually do side with him. (As I write, the Radio4 PM problem is doing an item on Japan and no sex.)
I'm probably with Sriram here. My 33 years of marriage were the most fulfilling and precious of my life.
I have had a good career, rose to senior positions in the corporate world, made some money and retired after 35 years. But I hardly remember all of that and it doesn't mean very much to me today. What I remember happily is my family. I remember the times spent with my wife, my parents, my in laws. I cherish the time spent with my children as they grew up, teaching them things, showing them the world, enjoying movies, eating in restaurants, going for holidays.
I am sure most of our forefathers were like that and many people are like that even today.
I can understand a few people being dedicated to some special cause and giving up on sex and family life. But how nearly 50% of youngsters can do that, for routine jobs, is beyond me. A sign of the times I suppose! Nature is telling us something here!!
PS: Maybe the focus on AI and robotics in Japan has something to do with it....... ;)
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PS: Maybe the focus on AI and robotics in Japan has something to do with it....... ;)
You could be right Sriram ..... http://tinyurl.com/y7bsmogj
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Agree about marriage and family. :)
So do I - 31 years to date.
But:
Other people's mileage may vary.
Agree with that too.
I think it's just the way things are or appear to be in Japan at this time, not anything to worry about.
At the same time I think it's good that people enjoy being single.
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You could be right Sriram ..... http://tinyurl.com/y7bsmogj
Thanks ekim.
Yes...amazing how the human mind is able to accept even a doll as a companion. We all do it when we are children I suppose, when we have not yet learnt to adjust to our real world. But adults doing it can be a sign of a disorder. If more and more people start doing it, it could lead to a major calamity in that society.
It could lead to population reduction eventually of course, but a rather bizarre way to achieve it IMO. Nature can be ruthless sometimes.....like a river that is overflowing will go any which way possible.
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Using dolls is, to me, really weird but frankly i find it difficult to believe the practice is that widespread.
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You could be right Sriram ..... http://tinyurl.com/y7bsmogj
I'm not going to ask how come you are familiar with rubber doll sites ....
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Thanks ekim.
Yes...amazing how the human mind is able to accept even a doll as a companion. We all do it when we are children I suppose, when we have not yet learnt to adjust to our real world. But adults doing it can be a sign of a disorder. If more and more people start doing it, it could lead to a major calamity in that society.
The Japan case illustrates why I would expect that humans will be falling in love with their domestic synths in the future. If it looks like a human and talks like a human and walks like a human, we will take it for a human.
I have an Amazon Echo in my home and although I know it is an artificial intelligence machine, I find myself talking to it with politeness and courtesy as I would if it were another human.
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I have had a good career, rose to senior positions in the corporate world, made some money and retired after 35 years. But I hardly remember all of that and it doesn't mean very much to me today. What I remember happily is my family. I remember the times spent with my wife, my parents, my in laws. I cherish the time spent with my children as they grew up, teaching them things, showing them the world, enjoying movies, eating in restaurants, going for holidays.
I am sure most of our forefathers were like that and many people are like that even today.
I can understand a few people being dedicated to some special cause and giving up on sex and family life. But how nearly 50% of youngsters can do that, for routine jobs, is beyond me. A sign of the times I suppose!
Vastly more likely, AFAICS, to be a sign of your failure not so much of imagination as of empathy.
You are not all the world and all the world isn't you. Not everybody thinks of what you think of as important as important.
There are lots of people (in India I'd have thought you would have noticed) and that means that what people consider a fulfilling, worthwhile, meaningful and purposeful life will vary. Vary quite a lot.
Fallacies of antiquity ("people have done this for a long, long time") and numbers ("lots of people do this") are fallacies when mounted as would-be arguments so don't even go there. Just don't. We're good at this shit; you're not. You'll get soundly spanked and you won't like it.
I can't believe I'm having to say this to another adult, but quite obviously in some cases it seems necessary.
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Haha - Shaker you are funny - it's the way you tell 'em.
Sriram - don't worry about Shaker - he couldn't spank a fly if his life depended upon it but he's amusing enough. We like diversity here so your views are as welcome as anyone else's.
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Haha - Shaker you are funny - it's the way you tell 'em.
Sriram - don't worry about Shaker - he couldn't spank a fly if his life depended upon it but he's amusing enough.
A notably poor effort even by what for want of a better word I shall call your standards.
We like diversity here so your views are as welcome as anyone else's.
Speaking very much for yourself there, evidently.
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Haha - Shaker you are funny - it's the way you tell 'em.
Sriram - don't worry about Shaker - he couldn't spank a fly if his life depended upon it but he's amusing enough. We like diversity here so your views are as welcome as anyone else's.
:D :D Well said! The thread on 'Atheists less tolerant' comes to mind! :D
I have never hesitated to express my views on any subject even when the whole lot of folks on this board (and BBC) have fallen on me like a ton of bricks!!
So...why would I take him seriously! Them and their 'fallacies'!! ::)
Some people seek attention through ad hominem and supposedly 'clever' one liners, rather than through serious views and ideas. But having said that, the situation was quite 'violent' some years back....it is much less so now. Not bad!
Thanks anyway Gabriella. :)
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The Japan case illustrates why I would expect that humans will be falling in love with their domestic synths in the future. If it looks like a human and talks like a human and walks like a human, we will take it for a human.
I have an Amazon Echo in my home and although I know it is an artificial intelligence machine, I find myself talking to it with politeness and courtesy as I would if it were another human.
Maybe at one level we are still like animals and are unable to distinguish between natural and synthetic. Our instinctive reactions probably arise based only on visual and auditory cues. Our movie experiences are an example.
But at another level we humans certainly can and should use our discretion and powers of discrimination to act in certain ways knowing what is real and what is not.
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So...why would I take him seriously! Them and their 'fallacies'!! ::)
Er no ... it's actually you and yours.
Some people deploy them constantly (seemingly without either knowing or caring that they're doing so), some of us merely point out that fact ... every fucking day ::)
And so the first group get edgy and defensive that their fallacious thinking has been identified as such, and whine about the second lot.
Come on over to the Christian Topic; it's a daily occurrence there.
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I'm not going to ask how come you are familiar with rubber doll sites ....
What's a rubber doll site?
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A notably poor effort even by what for want of a better word I shall call your standards. Speaking very much for yourself there, evidently.
That's the thing - I don't think I am speaking just for myself. I think other people also welcome your diverse views on here Shaker. Even when you have an over-inflated view of your abilities.
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That's the thing - I don't think I am speaking just for myself. I think other people also welcome your diverse views on here Shaker. Even when you have an over-inflated view of your abilities.
Alas, the only over-inflation of abilities around here comes from the likes of the egregious Burns (for example) and his one-man mission to get people to believe in his god via his stunning arsenal of howling logical fallacies.
This is after all a man who claims absolute certainty.
If I had an over-inflated sense of my abilities I would consider him capable of rational thought and able to advance a non-fallacious argument for us to take seriously. He clearly isn't.
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Of course lots of people are still having sex and babies, arguably too many
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/jul/09/2017-the-year-we-lost-control-of-world-population-surge-london-family-planning-contraception-summit-trump
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Sorry - I got hold of the wrong end of Sriram's stick!
I actually do side with him. (As I write, the Radio4 PM problem is doing an item on Japan and no sex.)
I'm probably with Sriram here. My 33 years of marriage were the most fulfilling and precious of my life.
I hope you are feeling nice and smug and superior about it.
I, on the other hand am quite comfortable in the knowledge that my carbon footprint is vastly smaller than that of almost anybody in this country who has children.
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I hope you are feeling nice and smug and superior about it.
I, on the other hand am quite comfortable in the knowledge that my carbon footprint is vastly smaller than that of almost anybody in this country who has children.
Don't see any comment about children. Nor do I see anything smug or superior in HH's post.
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Agree, NS. The years of my marriage were the worst of my life but I can appreciate that for others they are something good and fine. And marriage doesn't necessarily mean having children.
And I note the smugness there from Jeremy about his carbon footprint. He can enjoy that when my kids are paying their taxes in order to fund the stuff his generation wants and uses in a few years' time.
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I think people are increasingly becoming robotic. Reluctant to show emotions, scared to approach the opposite sex, scared to commit to any relationship, frightened of personal responsibilities, seeking immediate rewards for any work done, always trying to be politically correct, scared of causing offence.... and many more such things.
All this drains us of our natural and spontaneous actions and reactions. Giving in to natural impulses can be scary and sometimes even an offence.
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I think people are increasingly becoming robotic. Reluctant to show emotions, scared to approach the opposite sex, scared to commit to any relationship, frightened of personal responsibilities, seeking immediate rewards for any work done, always trying to be politically correct, scared of causing offence.... and many more such things.
All this drains us of our natural and spontaneous actions and reactions. Giving in to natural impulses can be scary and sometimes even an offence.
Just to note your descriotion above doesn't tie in with what I might consider robotic.
Oh and I thought you wanted us to move away from natural impulses because that were animalistic and that is seemingly bad?
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Just to note your descriotion above doesn't tie in with what I might consider robotic.
Oh and I thought you wanted us to move away from natural impulses because that were animalistic and that is seemingly bad?
As usual...you're off at a tangent. ::)
Natural impulses need not all be animal. Only the selfish and individualistic ones are. Love is a natural impulse.....but it is considered divine.
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As usual...you're off at a tangent. ::)
Natural impulses need not all be animal.
Since we're animals, what else would they be?
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As usual...you're off at a tangent. ::)
Natural impulses need not all be animal. Only the selfish and individualistic ones are. Love is a natural impulse.....but it is considered divine.
Surely wanting to offend is selfish but you seem to want to keep that? BTW I noticed that you ignored the first point. As usual you have a tendency to try and personalise replied, and ignore the actual post.
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Alas, the only over-inflation of abilities around here comes from the likes of the egregious Burns (for example) and his one-man mission to get people to believe in his god via his stunning arsenal of howling logical fallacies.
This is after all a man who claims absolute certainty.
If I had an over-inflated sense of my abilities I would consider him capable of rational thought and able to advance a non-fallacious argument for us to take seriously. He clearly isn't.
Can't say I have read through the whole Searching for God thread - it is very long- but maybe AB chooses absolute certainty because it work for him - it increases his happiness or subjective well-being. And so he offers it to anyone who wants to give it a try because he thinks it will increase their happiness.
Not sure how your abilities would make AB capabale of rational thought about religion - it depends which meaning of rational you are using - according to economists pursuing a course of action that you think serves your best interests is rational. Alternatively pursuing a course of action that you think is in the best interests of others is also rational.
A happiness research paper on this could answer some questions relating to Sriram's bafflement about the choices people make. It distinguishes between well being (satisfaction of the individual's preferences based on what rational, self-interested, well-informed people would generally prefer) and subjective well-being (SWB). The paper looks at different possible definitions of the concept of well-being: (1)objective-list accounts of well-being, (2)preferentialist accounts (satisfaction of personal preferences = well-being), and (3)mental state accounts (either achieving more pleasure than pain OR a broader definition is achieving your preferred mental state).
http://www.ericposner.com/posner_happiness_cba
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Not sure how your abilities would make AB capabale of rational thought about religion
It seems that absolutely nothing is capable of that.
it depends which meaning of rational you are using
The usual "Not using shit arguments" kind.
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Happiness is a very individual thing. Something which makes one person happy doesn't necessarily do it for another.
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Don't see any comment about children.
Have you not read any of the rest of the thread?
Nor do I see anything smug or superior in HH's post.
To play you at your own game, where did I say there was anything smug or superior in HH's post?
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Agree, NS. The years of my marriage were the worst of my life but I can appreciate that for others they are something good and fine. And marriage doesn't necessarily mean having children.
And I note the smugness there from Jeremy about his carbon footprint. He can enjoy that when my kids are paying their taxes in order to fund the stuff his generation wants and uses in a few years' time.
I fucking hate it when people wave their children around to "prove" their lives are more fulfilled and worthwhile than the lives of those of us who do not have children. In fact, I find it really offensive.
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I fucking hate it when people wave their children around to "prove" their lives are more fulfilled and worthwhile than the lives of those of us who do not have children. In fact, I find it really offensive.
So do I. Did I say my life was more fulfilled than yours?
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Have you not read any of the rest of the thread?To play you at your own game, where did I say there was anything smug or superior in HH's post?
You were replying to HH, the rest of the thread is nothing to do with him. As to your second point, you clearly implied it.
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I fucking hate it when people wave their children around to "prove" their lives are more fulfilled and worthwhile than the lives of those of us who do not have children. In fact, I find it really offensive.
Plus you have to worry about brain injury with all that waving going on!
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You were replying to HH, the rest of the thread is nothing to do with him. As to your second point, you clearly implied it.
What do you mean the rest of the thread is nothing to do with him? He is in it and he was responding to previous posts. I could have posted the same thing on any one of several preceding posts and it is, perhaps somewhat unfortunate that it was at his post that my patience failed, but the message remains.
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Plus you have to worry about brain injury with all that waving going on!
I think my fifteen year old would be mightily pissed off by it if I'm honest.
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What do you mean the rest of the thread is nothing to do with him? He is in it and he was responding to previous posts. I could have posted the same thing on any one of several preceding posts and it is, perhaps somewhat unfortunate that it was at his post that my patience failed, but the message remains.
He's responsible for his own posts, not others, and not your lack of patience.
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I think my fifteen year old would be mightily pissed off by it if I'm honest.
But also, I suspect, couldn't fail to be impressed. I generally find that people I wave around at that age are pissed off, scared, but somewhat in awe.
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I don't know why people who have had children would wish to pretend they were superior to those who haven't had children, for whatever reason.
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I don't know why people who have had children would wish to pretend they were superior to those who haven't had children, for whatever reason.
Yeah, so my eggs work and the mini pill didn't. Whoop de doop. It's just an accident of circumstance.
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I don't know why people who have had children would wish to pretend they were superior to those who haven't had children, for whatever reason.
I don't think jeremyp thinks that some people who have children who do seem to portray themselves as superior are pretending?. Where did you get the 'pretending' idea?
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We were fortunate enough to plan our children. One of my sisters never wanted kids, nor did her husband, which is fine. Sadly she got a lot of stick from our mother for not providing her with any grandchildren, even though my other two sisters and I had kept her amply provided with them.
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I don't think jeremyp thinks that some people who have children who do seem to portray themselves as superior are pretending?. Where did you get the 'pretending' idea?
Pretence as in to lay claim to, not as in play acting?
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Pretence as in to lay claim to, not as in play acting?
Aye verily, and forsooth ;). Possible but it makes the rest of the sentence read oddly.
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To wish to pretend superiority? Is that better?
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To wish to pretend superiority? Is that better?
You should see the Barker-Hoggs at the tennis club! She was only a a Cessnock and he was always a McPhie!
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It seems that absolutely nothing is capable of that.
The usual "Not using shit arguments" kind.
If religion makes him happy it seems a rational argument to suggest other people try it too to see if they also experience feelings of happiness.
Of course, given the nature of faith based on subjective experience and the lack of evidence of the repeatable, testable kind for any kind of supernatural entity, it makes sense that AB can't suggest anything more useful than people try and experience how he experiences the world and do whatever he did when he found his faith. Religion persists so it probably serves some purpose .
Sriram's OP also seems to be about offering people his version of happiness because he thinks it will make them happy too.
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If religion makes him happy it seems a rational argument to suggest other people try it too to see if they also experience feelings of happiness.
There's a well-known George Bernard Shaw quote that fits perfectly here.
Religion persists so it probably serves some purpose.
Doesn't necessarily follow. It could equally be the case that it may have served a purpose at some point but that purpose no longer exists, leaving religion hanging around for no reason like non-coding DNA.
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G Salaam
Good points but aren't people doing it more from an ego POV, as if to say, 'Lookee here, it's great for me so it MUST be good for you. Almost as if THEIR ideals are all YOU need to?
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G Salaam
Good points but aren't people doing it more from an ego POV, as if to say, 'Lookee here, it's great for me so it MUST be good for you. Almost as if THEIR ideals are all YOU need to?
That's the hallmark of missionary, proselytising religions - we believe it and so should you, because it'll be better for you if you do or else, sunshine.
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There's a well-known George Bernard Shaw quote that fits perfectly here.
Which one?
Doesn't necessarily follow. It could equally be the case that it may have served a purpose at some point but that purpose no longer exists, leaving religion hanging around for no reason like non-coding DNA.
Do we know everything there is to know about non-coding DNA in order to make the statement that it serves no purpose?
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Which one?
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life."
Do we know everything there is to know about non-coding DNA in order to make the statement that it serves no purpose?
We know enough.
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"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life."
Impossible to say whether any believer is happier than any skeptic - happiness being so subjective. All AB's experience can tell him is that he is happier as a believer than he would be as a skeptic.
We know enough.
No we don't. Our current understanding is based on our current knowledge and it will be revised as new information is discovered.
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Impossible to say whether any believer is happier than any skeptic - happiness being so subjective. All AB's experience can tell him is that he is happier as a believer than he would be as a skeptic.
... just like the drunkard is happier than the sober man, even though the source of his happiness is ultimately a toxic and noxious source, all the more so in quantity. Bernard Shaw's point stands unchallenged never mind undefeated.
Moreover, the egregious Burns has never been a sceptic - how would even know in which state he'd be happiest?
Our current understanding is based on our current knowledge and it will be revised as new information is discovered.
If it's discovered. Well done for knowing how science works, but we know enough to know that there's a small percentage of DNA which doesn't code for proteins and has no known regulatory function. That's where we are, without inventing fantasy scenarios of the future that might be the case some day, one day, maybe, might be.
That's science fiction rather than science.
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There are a few believers here who genuinely do seem content in their beliefs - Gabriella's one, as is Gonners and also Sriram - but I'm not sure that belief brings happiness, nor that the most strident posters here exude the kind of contentment and happiness that makes one want to give their stuff a go.
I also don't believe in the happy drunk. It's an illusory happiness at best but can very easily tip over into maudlin self reproach, self loathing and outright aggression. It's not pleasant.
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I also don't believe in the happy drunk.
That's only because you haven't seen me Oliver Twist ;)
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That's only because you haven't seen me Oliver Twist ;)
Probably just as well.
I go from the mildly tipsy drunk to the fast asleep drunk in about two glasses. So I think that makes me a boring drunk.
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... just like the drunkard is happier than the sober man, even though the source of his happiness is ultimately a toxic and noxious source, all the more so in quantity. Bernard Shaw's point stands unchallenged never mind undefeated.
Who says the drunkard is happier than the sober man? That's just your belief. You sound like AB - lots of assertions but no evidence.
Moreover, the egregious Burns has never been a sceptic - how would even know in which state he'd be happiest?
Imagination - it's a human ability - you might have come across it.
If it's discovered. Well done for knowing how science works, but we know enough to know that there's a small percentage of DNA which doesn't code for proteins and has no known regulatory function. That's where we are, without inventing fantasy scenarios of the future that might be the case some day, one day, maybe, might be.
That's science fiction rather than science.
Actually no it isn't. It's just pointing out the obvious in the face of your assertions. As you said "no known regulatory function". Research still ongoing so bit premature on your part to just write it off.
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Who says the drunkard is happier than the sober man?
Anybody who's ever been pissed.
That's just your belief.
That's my experience. Mine and a whole lot of people besides - alcohol being a popular thing for a few thousand years or so. You may not have noticed.
Imagination - it's a human ability - you might have come across it.
I said 'know', not 'imagine'.
Actually no it isn't. It's just pointing out the obvious in the face of your assertions. As you said "no known regulatory function". Research still ongoing so bit premature on your part to just write it off.
I'm going with what's known, not what might be ... some day. Or not. The idea of research is to find out what actually is the case, not imagine what might be. That would be to get the scientific endeavour arse about face.
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G Salaam
Good points but aren't people doing it more from an ego POV, as if to say, 'Lookee here, it's great for me so it MUST be good for you. Almost as if THEIR ideals are all YOU need to?
I don't know if relating personal experiences is an ego POV, and if it is, then I'm not sure that is a bad thing to share those experiences. The UN put together a World Happiness Report based on surveys in individual countries that identified certain measures of happiness. Apparently Norway is top of the list in 2017.
http://worldhappiness.report/ed/2017/
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One of the least religious nations on the planet.
Nice.
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Anybody who's ever been pissed.
Obviously not true but well done for channelling AB again.
I've been pissed. I found I got more happiness from driving a nice car than I did from being pissed. Oh and also from being able to leave somewhere boring and going somewhere more fun rather than staying and having to get pissed to relieve the boredom.
That's my experience. Mine and a whole lot of people besides - alcohol being a popular thing for a few thousand years or so. You may not have noticed.
Popularity does not necessarily equate with happiness. Once you rule out all the people addicted to it, and various functioning alcoholics, the people who have health problems from consuming more than they should or cause other people health problems - how many happy people does that leave exactly?
I'm going with what's known, not what might be ... some day. Or not. The idea of research is to find out what actually is the case, not imagine what might be.
The point of the research is to find out what the non-coding DNA does. After discovering that some of the non-coding DNA does actually serve a purpose, scientists seem interested to find out if it the rest of it does anything useful.
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Obviously not true but well done for channelling AB again.
I've been pissed. I found I got more happiness from driving a nice car than I did from being pissed. Oh and also from being able to leave somewhere boring and going somewhere more fun rather than staying and having to get pissed to relieve the boredom.
Sounds very much to me as though you applied yourself with insufficient rigour and persistence. In addition, those who complain of boredom are themselves frequently boring.
Popularity does not necessarily equate with happiness.
With mood-altering (which in practice actually means mood-raising) substances it pretty much does.
Once you rule out all the people addicted to it, and various functioning alcoholics, the people who have health problems from consuming more than they should or cause other people health problems - how many happy people does that leave exactly?
Over the course of history? Billions, I should think.
The point of the research is to find out what the non-coding DNA does.
... if anything at all.
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One of the least religious nations on the planet.
Nice.
Sriram was exploring the idea that having a family unit and companionship was important to happiness. Social support was one of the measures of happiness which Norway scored highly on - both in terms of its welfare state and its family-friendly policies and work-life balance.
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Sriram was exploring the idea that having a family unit and companionship was important to happiness.
No, Sriram laid down that life is primarily about marriage and children and that people (I quote) should* have a family unit of their own (post #9 for these fatuities), not the more minimal and non-idiotic claim that having a family is important to the happiness of some people and possibly a majority of people but not all people.
* My emphasis but his word.
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Sounds very much to me as though you applied yourself with insufficient rigour and persistence. In addition, those who complain of boredom are themselves frequently boring.
I was in OTC at uni and then worked for an investment bank. I applied myself - did the whole drinking neat shots of whisky, climbing out of windows many floors up and running around on ledges in a cocktail dress, riding around a train station on a bike I borrowed from a complete stranger, being moved on by the police etc etc.
Still prefer driving - if it's a nice car.
And after a couple of hours it's boring being sober when everyone else is pissed and talking rubbish. It's time to move on.
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No, Sriram laid down that life is primarily about marriage and children and that people (I quote) should have children (post #9 for these fatuities), not the more minimal and non-idiotic claim that having a family is important to the happiness of some people and possibly a majority of people but not all people.
Sriram said marriage and family or raising a family. Raising a family involves a lot more than having children - raising a family implies endeavour, service and sacrifice - I think he thought that was a difficult but worthwhile activity that would lead to shared happiness.
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Sriram said marriage and family or raising a family. Raising a family involves a lot more than having children - raising a family implies endeavour, service and sacrifice - I think he thought that was a difficult but worthwhile activity that would lead to shared happiness.
... which all people "should" do - according to him (#9) - and if they don't it is "very sad and worrying" (#3), "a pity" (#18) and "unfortunate" (#20).
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Sriram said marriage and family or raising a family. Raising a family involves a lot more than having children - raising a family implies endeavour, service and sacrifice - I think he thought that was a difficult but worthwhile activity that would lead to shared happiness.
Hi Gabriella,
This is probably a problem with idealism and identifying life goals. I think I'll start a separate thread on that.
Thanks & Cheers
Sriram