Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ProfessorDavey on July 07, 2017, 11:27:12 AM
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Over the past couple of weeks the latest regular British Social Attitudes survey (run pretty well annually since 1983) results have been published.
While it didn't receive a lot of press coverage the survey includes the following data on religion:
No religion: 52.8%
CofE: 15.0%
Roman Catholic: 8.6%
Other Christian: 17.0%
Non Christian religion: 6.3%
This is comfortably the highest proportion of non religion seen in the survey over its 34 year history. Over that period the proportion of non religious have consistently increased from 31% in 1983 to 52.8% now.
The complementary Scottish Social Attitudes survey shows an even greater proportion of the population (58%) indicating that they have no religion - again the highest level ever recorded in the survey.
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My first visit to the UK was in 1970 when I spent close on two months there. I came away then with the strong conviction that, with the possible exception of Northern Ireland, the other three countries were already majority non religious. It has taken the stats a long time to catch up with reality.
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My first visit to the UK was in 1970 when I spent close on two months there. I came away then with the strong conviction that, with the possible exception of Northern Ireland, the other three countries were already majority non religious. It has taken the stats a long time to catch up with reality.
That's right in a manner.
For decades the vast majority of people have had no meaningful involvement in any religion, for example less than 10% regularly attend religious worship. What we are seeing is the 'outer envelope' of nominal religiosity also becoming minority. By that I mean those who will say 'Christian' when asked whether they have a religion, but this is merely culturally and historical rather than having any meaning in their day to day lives.
That we are no in a position where a majority wont even claim a religion in a purely cultural manner is quite significant.
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I'll have a drop of something nice tonight to celebrate :)
I'm surprised - I thought this made the news some time ago? Perhaps a different survey.
That we are no in a position where a majority wont even claim a religion in a purely cultural manner is quite significant.
I have to wonder though how long it will take for political reality to catch up with social and cultural reality - with regard to things like the establishment of the C of E, bishops in the Lords etc. A long, long time, I suspect.
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Yes, cultural Christianity was the norm when I was a child in the 70's. It meant 'christenings', church weddings and the vicar to say something nice at the funeral, plus a massive great piss up at Christmas with maybe a nod to singing some carols. As even that is dying out now the cultural Christianity is too. I think people now expect and want a far more individual expression of their spirituality, or lack thereof.
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I grew up on a council estate, where religion was like pink zebras. I mean, you didn't see it. Well, there were a handful of Irish families or with Irish ancestry.
I also remember that my grandparents were indifferent to religion, and in one case, acutely hostile. So I never got that over half the population were religious.
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Yes, cultural Christianity was the norm when I was a child in the 70's. It meant 'christenings', church weddings and the vicar to say something nice at the funeral, plus a massive great piss up at Christmas with maybe a nod to singing some carols. As even that is dying out now the cultural Christianity is too. I think people now expect and want a far more individual expression of their spirituality, or lack thereof.
I suspect it is a bit more complicated again.
There are still plenty of aspects of our society that are culturally christian (at least in part) that people still enjoy participating in, but we have moved beyond the stage where people will therefore answer 'Christian' to a question about their religion.
So as an analogy - many of us still greatly enjoy fireworks around 5th Nov - indeed plenty of us understand the origins of the celebration. Yet hardly any of us would say we are anti-catholic as a result, indeed we'd probably be horrified by that notion.
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I suspect it is a bit more complicated again.
There are still plenty of aspects of our society that are culturally christian (at least in part) that people still enjoy participating in, but we have moved beyond the stage where people will therefore answer 'Christian' to a question about their religion.
So as an analogy - many of us still greatly enjoy fireworks around 5th Nov - indeed plenty of us understand the origins of the celebration. Yet hardly any of us would say we are anti-catholic as a result, indeed we'd probably be horrified by that notion.
Bonfire Night remembers something that was driven by a mix of religious and political events. It's not a Christian celebration in any sense of the word.
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Bonfire Night remembers something that was driven by a mix of religious and political events. It's not a Christian celebration in any sense of the word.
At least some of the townsfolk of Lewes may disagree.
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At least some of the townsfolk of Lewes may disagree.
Why, do they operate by a different church calendar to the rest of the country?
Sectarianism isn't Christianity, it is people behaving like wankers.
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Why, do they operate by a different church calendar to the rest of the country?
Sectarianism isn't Christianity, it is people behaving like wankers.
Given that seventeen burning crosses are carried through the town to commemorate seventeen Protestant martyrs murdered in the Marian persecutions, sometimes it's difficult to disentangle the two.
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Given that seventeen burning crosses are carried through the town to commemorate seventeen Protestant martyrs murdered in the Marian persecutions, sometimes it's difficult to disentangle the two.
Still not a Christian festival though. It's a folk tradition.
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Bonfire Night remembers something that was driven by a mix of religious and political events. It's not a Christian celebration in any sense of the word.
Nonetheless - many of us enjoy bonfire night without feeling that we are aligning ourselves with either its religious or political context.
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Nonetheless - many of us enjoy bonfire night without feeling that we are aligning ourselves with either its religious or political context.
... Christmas likewise - perhaps to a lesser extent Easter.
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Nonetheless - many of us enjoy bonfire night without feeling that we are aligning ourselves with either its religious or political context.
Of course. It's just a folk tradition and we no longer care about its origins.
Christmas and Easter are a part of our Christian cultural identity; we have a late May holiday as a hangover from Whitsun (Pentecost) and many places have Michaelmas Fairs and so on. Mothering Sunday too is Christian, as distinct from Mother's Day, although the two are now often merged. And of course Hallow'een - the eve of All Hallows Day.
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Christmas and Easter are a part of our Christian cultural identity; we have a late May holiday as a hangover from Whitsun (Pentecost) and many places have Michaelmas Fairs and so on. Mothering Sunday too is Christian, as distinct from Mother's Day, although the two are now often merged. And of course Hallow'een - the eve of All Hallows Day.
Indeed - and on Sunday we can only shop for six hours!
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Except at the Co-op - 10am-10pm
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Indeed - and on Sunday we can only shop for six hours!
No Sunday shopping restrictions at all here in civilisation :)
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Over the past couple of weeks the latest regular British Social Attitudes survey (run pretty well annually since 1983) results have been published.
While it didn't receive a lot of press coverage the survey includes the following data on religion:
No religion: 52.8%
That's a Brexit sort of a majority.............................................That's going well isn't it?
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No Sunday shopping restrictions at all here in civilisation :)
Grrrr! *waves walking stick* >:(
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That's a Brexit sort of a majority.............................................That's going well isn't it?
A majority is a majority.
I would try and explain the concept to you but right now I'm all out of dolls and crayons.
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A majority is a majority.
I would try and explain the concept to you but right now I'm all out of dolls.
What about the big rubber one under your bed?
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What about the big rubber one under your bed?
It went down on me ... a thoroughly deflating experience.
(Dishonest quote mine duly noted ;) ).
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It went down on me ... a thoroughly deflating experience.
(Dishonest quote mine duly noted ;) ).
One wonders if finding out about its existence involved a little tiny bit of illegal entry and searching without a warrant.
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That's a Brexit sort of a majority.............................................That's going well isn't it?
Three points:
1. 52.8% is a much higher than the 51.9% Leave vote - albeit marginal.
2. Much more significantly the Brexit vote was a forced choice of just 2 options, so the Leave 51.9% was less than 4% ahead of the next most popular (and only other) option. No religion at 52.8% is over 35% ahead of the next most popular option.
3. The direction of travel. The demographics mean that the Leave slender majority is likely to shrink further as old (more 'Leavy') people die and younger (more 'Remainy') people turn 18. The reverse is true for religion - the demographics imply a relentless increase in 'non religion', with the proportion of people claiming to be religious shrinking further over the next few decades.
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Three points:
1. 52.8% is a much higher than the 51.9% Leave vote - albeit marginal.
2. Much more significantly the Brexit vote was a forced choice of just 2 options, so the Leave 51.9% was less than 4% ahead of the next most popular (and only other) option. No religion at 52.8% is over 35% ahead of the next most popular option.
3. The direction of travel. The demographics mean that the Leave slender majority is likely to shrink further as old (more 'Leavy') people die and younger (more 'Remainy') people turn 18. The reverse is true for religion - the demographics imply a relentless increase in 'non religion', with the proportion of people claiming to be religious shrinking further over the next few decades.
I think it's the decline in popularity of Star Wars.......Think about it.
I think a scientist needs to be capable about a ''relentless'' social increase or decrease over decades.
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Over the past couple of weeks the latest regular British Social Attitudes survey (run pretty well annually since 1983) results have been published.
While it didn't receive a lot of press coverage the survey includes the following data on religion:
No religion: 52.8%
CofE: 15.0%
Roman Catholic: 8.6%
Other Christian: 17.0%
Non Christian religion: 6.3%
This is comfortably the highest proportion of non religion seen in the survey over its 34 year history. Over that period the proportion of non religious have consistently increased from 31% in 1983 to 52.8% now.
The complementary Scottish Social Attitudes survey shows an even greater proportion of the population (58%) indicating that they have no religion - again the highest level ever recorded in the survey.
Maybe secular spirituality is growing.
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Maybe secular spirituality is growing.
As a bit of a background Sriram, English communities were and still are in rural areas based around Church, Village Hall, and Public house.
All three are declining as centres for communal activity, Village Halls now Cater for sub communal Groups and Pub visitations and church visitations are declining.
There has been an increase in people buying their own drinks to consume at home rather than going to pubs.
Could there therefore be more spirituality in the secular space as the result of a shift from communality? Very possible.
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Maybe secular spirituality is growing.
Yes, I do hope so, Sriram.
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Maybe secular spirituality is growing.
Perhaps, but even to be in with a chance of finding out you'd first have to define it and determine how it's expressed - that is, to know that you've found it when looking for it. Spirituality is one of those words notoriously difficult to pin down in a way that provides a working and workable definition to cover a wide enough sample - to me it always seems too privatised and individualistic for that (and that's an observation, I should say, and not in any way a criticism).
I'm not sure anybody has done so and then conducted a study or a survey to see how this plays out in people's lives. It would be interesting if somebody did, though.
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Perhaps, but even to be in with a chance of finding out you'd first have to define it and determine how it's expressed - that is, to know that you've found it when looking for it. Spirituality is one of those words notoriously difficult to pin down in a way that provides a working and workable definition to cover a wide enough sample - to me it always seems too privatised and individualistic for that (and that's an observation, I should say, and not in any way a criticism).
I'm not sure anybody has done so and then conducted a study or a survey to see how this plays out in people's lives. It would be interesting if somebody did, though.
Agreed, Shaker. I deliberately didn't expand on what my idea of 'spirituality' is, as Sriram didn't bother to either, although his use of 'secular' suggests that it isn't associated with religious matters, of course.
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Agreed, Shaker. I deliberately didn't expand on what my idea of 'spirituality' is
No but I wish you had! I'm always interested to hear people's take on it.
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As a bit of a background Sriram, English communities were and still are in rural areas based around Church, Village Hall, and Public house.
All three are declining as centres for communal activity, Village Halls now Cater for sub communal Groups and Pub visitations and church visitations are declining.
There has been an increase in people buying their own drinks to consume at home rather than going to pubs.
Could there therefore be more spirituality in the secular space as the result of a shift from communality? Very possible.
Yes...you're probably right. Religions have many aspects to them, mythology, legends, rituals, rules, community work, congregating in temples and churches, deities and so on.
With changing times, people could give up on many of the above and still retain basic spiritual goals and aspirations.
For those who wonder what 'spirituality'is, I have written about it several times.
You could check out this article.
https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/spirituality-and-religion/
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I think it's the decline in popularity of Star Wars.......Think about it.
What on earth are you on about - is this some Jedi reference? If so, I think you will find that campaign was about the 2001 census, not the British Social Attitudes Survey.
I think a scientist needs to be capable about a ''relentless'' social increase or decrease over decades.
Again - is this actually supposed to make any sense.
And what's with the pointless name change, yet again Vlad?
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Over the past couple of weeks the latest regular British Social Attitudes survey (run pretty well annually since 1983) results have been published.
While it didn't receive a lot of press coverage the survey includes the following data on religion:
No religion: 52.8%
CofE: 15.0%
Roman Catholic: 8.6%
Other Christian: 17.0%
Non Christian religion: 6.3%
This is comfortably the highest proportion of non religion seen in the survey over its 34 year history. Over that period the proportion of non religious have consistently increased from 31% in 1983 to 52.8% now.
The complementary Scottish Social Attitudes survey shows an even greater proportion of the population (58%) indicating that they have no religion - again the highest level ever recorded in the survey.
So what?
Take a poll at my local church and a vast majority would say that abortion should be illegal.
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So what?
Take a poll at my local church and a vast majority would say that abortion should be illegal.
But the point is that they don't take the poll at your local church. Those that they survey are demographically representative of the entire country (including, as it were, your local church, but not exclusively so).
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So what?
Take a poll at my local church and a vast majority would say that abortion should be illegal.
If true, how sad! :o
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If true, how sad! :o
But utterly irrelevant, since the said members are a statistically insignificant minority sample unrepresentative of the general population.
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If true, how sad! :o
Why is it sad? They are entitled to their beliefs, and don't affect the majority.
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Why is it sad? They are entitled to their beliefs, and don't affect the majority.
Some beliefs cause a lot of problems! >:(
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Take a poll at my local church and a vast majority would say that abortion should be illegal.
That might be true, but the British Social Attitudes survey this year looked at these types of moral issues and found a big disconnect between the 'party' line from religions and what their rank and file members actually thought.
So on abortion although the Catholic church is steadfastly opposed to abortion in pretty well every situation 61% of catholics thought that abortions should be allowed in circumstances where the woman did not wish to have the child.
Now I suspect that majority of catholics in favour of abortion might be inclined to keep their views to themselves, particularly in a church setting as they may not wish to be seen to oppose the church's view. So you might find within your own church that although the 'group think' might be that abortion is wrong - privately ask people their individual views and you may get a very different response.
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That might be true, but the British Social Attitudes survey this year looked at these types of moral issues and found a big disconnect between the 'party' line from religions and what their rank and file members actually thought.
So on abortion although the Catholic church is steadfastly opposed to abortion in pretty well every situation 61% of catholics thought that abortions should be allowed in circumstances where the woman did not wish to have the child.
Now I suspect that majority of catholics in favour of abortion might be inclined to keep their views to themselves, particularly in a church setting as they may not wish to be seen to oppose the church's view. So you might find within your own church that although the 'group think' might be that abortion is wrong - privately ask people their individual views and you may get a very different response.
I suspect many Catholics nowadays use contraceptives, as so few of them in the UK have large families.
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I suspect many Catholics nowadays use contraceptives, as so few of them in the UK have large families.
Of course they do.
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Of course they do.
Good for them, it is one of the RCCs crazier dogmas, especially as it has caused so much suffering due to overlarge unaffordable families in the past. Where in the Bible does it say, 'Thou shalt not use contraceptives'?
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Humph isn't a Catholic.
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Humph isn't a Catholic.
I never said he was - the point I was making is that the view of rank and file members of a religion are often at odds with the 'party line'. I used the Catholic example as they are widely recognised as having a very extreme 'party line' on abortion.
The British Social Attitudes survey found majority support that a woman should be allowed by law to have an abortion if she does not wish to have the child amongst Anglicans (67%) and 'other' Christian groups (57%) too.
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It is about time Catholics started questioning their priests and not accepting as gospel all they are told, especially as much of it has nothing directly to do with the Bible, like making Mary into some kind of saint.
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I never said he was - the point I was making is that the view of rank and file members of a religion are often at odds with the 'party line'. I used the Catholic example as they are widely recognised as having a very extreme 'party line' on abortion.
The British Social Attitudes survey found majority support that a woman should be allowed by law to have an abortion if she does not wish to have the child amongst Anglicans (67%) and 'other' Christian groups (57%) too.
I get that, but in the context of Humph commenting about *his* church we are comparing apples and pears. It's well known that lay Catholics are often far more liberal than the teachings of their church but I've seen little evidence that the same goes for Orthodox believers.
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I get that, but in the context of Humph commenting about *his* church we are comparing apples and pears. It's well known that lay Catholics are often far more liberal than the teachings of their church but I've seen little evidence that the same goes for Orthodox believers.
Absolutely! On one occasion, when, following receiving the Holy Gifts, I stayed too long on the women's side of the church, I was left in no doubt that I should cross to the men's side. And that was the congregation, not the priest.
FTR Our church is more liberal than the RCC as regards contraception, but abortion is a big no no.
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Absolutely! On one occasion, when, following receiving the Holy Gifts, I stayed too long on the women's side of the church, I was left in no doubt that I should cross to the men's side. And that was the congregation, not the priest.
FTR Our church is more liberal than the RCC as regards contraception, but abortion is a big no no.
My point was that until you ask people privately and confidentially (as is the case with the British Social Attitudes survey) you won't know for sure. I'm sure there are plenty in the RCC who will swear blind that the vast majority of their church is against abortion - yet ask them privately and confidentially and you get a very different answer.
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Absolutely! On one occasion, when, following receiving the Holy Gifts, I stayed too long on the women's side of the church, I was left in no doubt that I should cross to the men's side. And that was the congregation, not the priest.
FTR Our church is more liberal than the RCC as regards contraception, but abortion is a big no no.
Men and women's sides of a church, which church insists on that for heaven's sake?
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Men and women's sides of a church, which church insists on that for heaven's sake?
The Orthodox. Women & girls stand to the right of the Priest, men and boys stand to his left. The icons on one side of the church are of female saints, those on the other side are male saints.
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And FTR it was a very moving moment when Master Bennett was old enough to take my hand & stand with me on the men's side.
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The Orthodox. Women & girls stand to the right of the Priest, men and boys stand to his left. The icons on one side of the church are of female saints, those on the other side are male saints.
Blimey how crazy, the Orthodox church needs to drag itself into the 21st century too. I am willing to bet the so called 'saints' weren't so saintly in reality, like that woman Mother T.
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Blimey how crazy, the Orthodox church needs to drag itself into the 21st century too.
They'll have to skip over a shitload of centuries in between to do so.
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The Orthodox. Women & girls stand to the right of the Priest, men and boys stand to his left. The icons on one side of the church are of female saints, those on the other side are male saints.
Segregation even down to paintings. In 2017.
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Reponding to Floo:- Are Saints supposed to be perfect people? Humph will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they were people who made mistakes but something about their lives overwhelmingly good in the spiritual sense made them Saints. As for saints (small s) anyone who goes to Heaven is a saint.I think.
Can't see anything wrong with having different sides for men and women. I didn't know about it before today but it doesn't imply any inequalitiy, just a different way of doing things.
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Can't see anything wrong with having different sides for men and women. I didn't know about it before today but it doesn't imply any inequalitiy, just a different way of doing things.
Would it wash in any other area of life today?
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Yes...you're probably right. Religions have many aspects to them, mythology, legends, rituals, rules, community work, congregating in temples and churches, deities and so on.
With changing times, people could give up on many of the above and still retain basic spiritual goals and aspirations.
For those who wonder what 'spirituality'is, I have written about it several times.
You could check out this article.
https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/06/06/spirituality-and-religion/
Further to the above....if we really want to find out about secular spirituality we only need to ask few questions...
1. Do you think life is not merely an accident but is meant to be? Yes/No
2. Do you believe in a purpose to your individual live? Yes/No
4. Do you believe in life continuing after death in some form? Yes/No
4. Do you believe your life is guided by some unseen force and is not entirely in your conscious control? Yes/No
This should be enough to establish how many people accept secular spirituality without necessarily bringing in God, mythology and religious concepts.
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Would it wash in any other area of life today?
Dunno. Doubt it.
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Further to the above....if we really want to find out about secular spirituality we only need to ask few questions...
1. Do you think life is not merely an accident but is meant to be? Yes/No
2. Do you believe in a purpose to your individual live? Yes/No
4. Do you believe in life continuing after death in some form? Yes/No
4. Do you believe your life is guided by some unseen force and is not entirely in your conscious control? Yes/No
This should be enough to establish how many people accept secular spirituality without necessarily bringing in God, mythology and religious concepts.
1. No.
2. Yes.
3. No.
4. No.
What do I win?
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Ok...
1. No.
2. Life has the meaning that I bring to it. Of not.
3. Believe no, am open to the possibility, yes.
4. Not on your nelly.
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Ok...
1. No.
2. Life has the meaning that I bring to it. Of not.
3. Believe no, am open to the possibility, yes.
4. Not on your nelly.
I am not suggesting that people on here should answer these questions.
What I meant was that if such a survey is conducted we would need to ask only few such questions to determine if people have taken to secular spirituality or not while being non religious. It was with reference to the OP.
No complicated questions about the nature and definition of spirituality would be required. That was my point.
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I am not suggesting that people on here should answer these questions.
What I meant was that if such a survey is conducted we would need to ask only few such questions to determine if people have taken to secular spirituality or not while being non religious. It was with reference to the OP.
It's interesting to answer them though, surely, and see reactions?
If you put it out there it's not up to you what people choose to do with it.
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It's interesting to answer them though, surely, and see reactions?
If you put it out there it's not up to you what people choose to do with it.
Go ahead!
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Reponding to Floo:- Are Saints supposed to be perfect people? Humph will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they were people who made mistakes but something about their lives overwhelmingly good in the spiritual sense made them Saints. As for saints (small s) anyone who goes to Heaven is a saint.I think.
Can't see anything wrong with having different sides for men and women. I didn't know about it before today but it doesn't imply any inequalitiy, just a different way of doing things.
Mother T was no sort of saint whilst alive. I once met someone who had worked with her, they thought she was cruel and had absolutely no compassion for the people she supposed to be helping. >:(
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Further to the above....if we really want to find out about secular spirituality we only need to ask few questions...
1. Do you think life is not merely an accident but is meant to be? Yes/No
2. Do you believe in a purpose to your individual live? Yes/No
4. Do you believe in life continuing after death in some form? Yes/No
4. Do you believe your life is guided by some unseen force and is not entirely in your conscious control? Yes/No
This should be enough to establish how many people accept secular spirituality without necessarily bringing in God, mythology and religious concepts.
1. No
2. Yes
3. No (except in the memory of other etc)
4. Depends what you mean - if some 'external' force then 'no', but there is a strong influence of the unconscious and subconscious which are manifestations of our own neural systems, but aren't necessarily conscious.
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I am not suggesting that people on here should answer these questions.
What I meant was that if such a survey is conducted we would need to ask only few such questions to determine if people have taken to secular spirituality or not while being non religious. It was with reference to the OP.
No complicated questions about the nature and definition of spirituality would be required. That was my point.
Only if we get agreement that your questions and your approach are what is meant by spirituality. Others may disagree with it.
In terms of my answers.
1. Don't know, doesn't seem to be a coherent question to me.
2. a single purpose? No, many multiple purposes quite possibly, depends what you mean by purpose though because I suspect what I think of as a purpose might be different to you.
3. Too badly phrased to answer since it uses a false dichotomy of life/death
4. I don't believe that is controlled by some conscious outside force, nor do I believe it is within my conscious control.
The problem is you are using a badly defined idea based on a number of false dichotomies.
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Further to the above....if we really want to find out about secular spirituality we only need to ask few questions...
1. Do you think life is not merely an accident but is meant to be? Yes/No
2. Do you believe in a purpose to your individual live? Yes/No
4. Do you believe in life continuing after death in some form? Yes/No
4. Do you believe your life is guided by some unseen force and is not entirely in your conscious control? Yes/No
This should be enough to establish how many people accept secular spirituality without necessarily bringing in God, mythology and religious concepts.
There is no evidence that I that know of which suggests that life was meant to be, I consider that we all make our own purposes in our individual lives, I have no reason to think that individual lives continue after their deaths and, again, there is no evidence that unseen forces guide our lives, unless, of course, you consider that evolutionary tendencies, and our physical make-up have a large part to play in how our lives progress.
However, I insist that I am still able to use the term secular spirituality if I so wish with regards to myself, whether you agree with me or not, simply because such a term has no exactitude, can emphasise different things to different people and is in no way defined by you at all, and certainly not by your seemingly loaded questions.
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However, I insist that I am still able to use the term secular spirituality if I so wish with regards to myself, whether you agree with me or not, simply because such a term has no exactitude, can emphasise different things to different people and is in no way defined by you at all, and certainly not by your seemingly loaded questions.
That's very well put, enki, and I'd agree with all of it. Sriram's questions seem to me more religious than spiritual, although that's just my way of taking the words. None of them are questions that would naturally occur to me to ask and I still find it strange that they apparently preoccupy so many people. When I was about 14 I remember being struck by the thought that I might not actually be human and when I think about how these questions are central to so many human lives I get something approaching that feeling all over again!
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That's s very good point. Sriram I think links secular spirituality with a kind of quasi religious belief with no dogma or doctrine. In other words, a broadly theist belief that includes an afterlife.
I've said before that spirituality for me is the nurturing of the parts of us that go beyond our basic physical needs. My personal path is about connection to nature and to others, and a searching for stillness in whatever is happening in my life, along with the enrichment of creativity, mine and other people's.
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Yes, his approach is very religious, I think. I've been pondering why those questions feel odd to me and I think it may be because they are so 'heady' and abstract. They seem to come from a place where mind and body have already been divorced and the body sent to sleep in the stables with the horses, leaving the 'spiritual' faculties free to elevate themselves unmolested so that they may consort with angels and suchlike.
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I can answer the questions ok but they are assuming that 'spirit' is separate from the body, aren't they?
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They also refer to ones 'life' as something quite abstract, almost as if it existed separate from its moments. For instance, 'Do you believe in a purpose to your individual life?' doesn't make much sense when you're eating a juicy pear or listening to a blackcap - at least it doesn't to me. In fact, all the questions seem entirely irrelevant to me.
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They also refer to ones 'life' as something quite abstract, almost as if it existed separate from its moments. For instance, 'Do you believe in a purpose to your individual life?' doesn't make much sense when you're eating a juicy pear or listening to a blackcap - at least it doesn't to me. In fact, all the questions seem entirely irrelevant to me.
Now you see those are *exactly* the ones where I find meaning. I think life has no meaning except what we choose to bring to it, and life is made meaningful to me by exactly the kinds of things you describe - smelling the honeysuckle, watching the buzzards, eating good bread. If noticing these things is my life's purpose then I'm fine with it.
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Now you see those are *exactly* the ones where I find meaning. I think life has no meaning except what we choose to bring to it, and life is made meaningful to me by exactly the kinds of things you describe - smelling the honeysuckle, watching the buzzards, eating good bread. If noticing these things is my life's purpose then I'm fine with it.
Exactly what I was thinking - it's the moments that make the meaning, to me, amongst other things. But others' mileage may vary, of course.
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Exactly what I was thinking - it's the moments that make the meaning, to me, amongst other things. But others' mileage may vary, of course.
Yes, there are other things in which I find meaning - relationships, family - but they can't be summoned up to order. The moments can be made all the sweeter because of who you are with but you have to be equally able to accept them and embrace them in solitude.
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They also refer to ones 'life' as something quite abstract, almost as if it existed separate from its moments. For instance, 'Do you believe in a purpose to your individual life?' doesn't make much sense when you're eating a juicy pear or listening to a blackcap - at least it doesn't to me. In fact, all the questions seem entirely irrelevant to me.
Very good points. It is too abstract for me as well. I don't think that life exists in that abstract sense. OK, we can take the juicy pear and the blackcap singing and say these are examples of life, but they're not really. You can never find that thing life.
I expect you know the old Buddhist Q and A: 'tell me the meaning of Bodhidharma coming from the West'. 'The log in the log-room'.
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I know the koan but the classical response is usually 'the cypress tree in the courtyard', isn't it? Maybe it says something undesirable about me but your version sounds a touch lavatorial - and maybe therefore an improvement on the original!
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I don't know. The pear, the blackcap, this discussion, are to me examples of connection. That connection wont last because it's just in the moment. I guess my purpose is either to be alive to the moment, or to be dead to it. Are both 'life'? I don't know.
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Now you see those are *exactly* the ones where I find meaning. I think life has no meaning except what we choose to bring to it, and life is made meaningful to me by exactly the kinds of things you describe - smelling the honeysuckle, watching the buzzards, eating good bread. If noticing these things is my life's purpose then I'm fine with it.
I can't quite get away from the sense that meaning in this context implies that life (or its moments) point to something lying beyond themselves, like words and their referents, and I can't see them in this way. The very idea of meaning arises together with the idea of meaninglessness and they seem equally to collapse when one just pays attention. The preoccupation with finding meaning would again seem to be a casualty of excessive abstraction. Where exactly is this 'life' and how could it be meaningful or meaningless?
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I can't quite get away from the sense that meaning in this context implies that life (or its moments) point to something lying beyond themselves, like words and their referents, and I can't see them in this way. The very idea of meaning arises together with the idea of meaninglessness and they seem equally to collapse when one just pays attention. The preoccupation with finding meaning would again seem to be a casualty of excessive abstraction. Where exactly is this 'life' and how could it be meaningful or meaningless?
Sriram may intend something of the kind. I don't. We are born, we exist, we die. It's up to me to give the 'exist' bit meaning, otherwise I'd sleepwalk through life. But I don't sit and watch the branches of the birch tree and look for the meaning. They are the meaning. In that moment.
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I can't quite get away from the sense that meaning in this context implies that life (or its moments) point to something lying beyond themselves, like words and their referents, and I can't see them in this way. The very idea of meaning arises together with the idea of meaninglessness and they seem equally to collapse when one just pays attention. The preoccupation with finding meaning would again seem to be a casualty of excessive abstraction. Where exactly is this 'life' and how could it be meaningful or meaningless?
Remember Plato's analogy of the cave and shadows?
Meaning is about seeing beyond the obvious and the mundane. Finding meaning in the mundane is a different level of thinking.
I understand that many people are unable to see how Life can have a meaning or purpose beyond the here and now. But there are many more who cannot understand how Life cannot have a meaning beyond the mundane. So I guess its something about differences in basic personalities.
Religion is just one way in which this quest for meaning is expressed and fulfilled. There are secular ways of doing it.
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Trying to find meaning beyond the here and now is livjng in a dream, a fantasy, because the here and now is all there is. That's not to say that the sensory world is where it begins and ends. A price we pay for being human creatures is that we have complex needs - for security, for fulfilment, for acceptance and for love. But as I've said before these can't be summoned up to order, and while it's possible to take steps towards them in varying ways, some of it can be down to nothing more than luck. Managing to be ok when our needs aren't met is a challenge and that is where focussing on the moment can get you through, and provide the meaning.
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Meaning is about seeing beyond the obvious and the mundane.
'The World is Not Enough' - it will be our epitaph.
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Meaning and purpose feel like ash in my mouth now. They are too abstract, and are bandied about in a way that renders meaning meaningless.
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Yes, and they seem to me more like a symptom of alienation than its remedy.
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Yes, and they seem to me more like a symptom of alienation than its remedy.
Exactly. Every abstraction like this takes me away from life, towards mind-fucking.
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But circumstances mean I have purpose. I have kids to raise on my own. I have a partner. I have people, animals and things that I love. I realise that none of these things are permanent. But they answer something within me that expresses myself through them. Or something.
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But circumstances mean I have purpose. I have kids to raise on my own. I have a partner. I have people, animals and things that I love. I realise that none of these things are permanent. But they answer something within me that expresses myself through them. Or something.
Well, sure, I am writing this post, so you could say that I have a purpose. But I don't see what is added by giving it that name. I am writing this post, and I enjoy it. Purpose is like another layer of nonsense.
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Exactly. Every abstraction like this takes me away from life, towards mind-fucking.
I can't help thinking there must have been a time when humans felt they belonged to the world in some immersive way that rendered concepts like 'meaning' irrelevant. Mind-fucking seems now to be the way we live, ever more wrapped up within ourselves and our mental projections. Perhaps some future species will write our biography - 'they wanked themselves into extinction.'
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Well, sure, I am writing this post, so you could say that I have a purpose. But I don't see what is added by giving it that name. I am writing this post, and I enjoy it. Purpose is like another layer of nonsense.
I guess it depends on what we mean by it. 'Purpose' to me is 'stuff to do'. The problem comes when people think that there is a 'life's purpose' to discover if only they had the right teacher/path/self help book. Actually when I look back on it the times when I searched for a deeper kind of 'purpose' were those when I wouldn't face up to how deeply unhappy I was and that I needed not to find something, but to end something.
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Well, sure, I am writing this post, so you could say that I have a purpose. But I don't see what is added by giving it that name. I am writing this post, and I enjoy it. Purpose is like another layer of nonsense.
Isn't the idea of ‘purpose’ in life a primary source of alienation? It obliges us to match our life against some idealised narrative and the comparison cannot but create stress.
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I can't help thinking there must have been a time when humans felt they belonged to the world in some immersive way that rendered concepts like 'meaning' irrelevant. Mind-fucking seems now to be the way we live, ever more wrapped up within ourselves and our mental projections. Perhaps some future species will write our biography - 'they wanked themselves into extinction.'
One of the problems is that abstraction is also very powerful; it enables us to produce descriptions of nature which are generalized, but can be used in local situations. For example, if you want to build a bridge, you will use certain formulae which have been shown to work. But we seem to have let this overpower everything. I can't see a solution, but in fact, 'solution' is another piece of mind-fucking. We don't need a solution, we can just live.
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I guess it depends on what we mean by it. 'Purpose' to me is 'stuff to do'. The problem comes when people think that there is a 'life's purpose' to discover if only they had the right teacher/path/self help book. Actually when I look back on it the times when I searched for a deeper kind of 'purpose' were those when I wouldn't face up to how deeply unhappy I was and that I needed not to find something, but to end something.
Yes, I am very suspicious now of teachings about purpose and meaning. Just check your wallet, as they will probably want payment. Good points about feeling unhappy. One of my tutors used to say that Sartre was so depressed, he had to write a ton of abstract stuff in order to numb himself. Bit cynical.
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This talk of purpose reminds me of a poem by Ikkuyu, which has the wonderful line, 'If you don't know where you are going, any road is the right one.'
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This talk of purpose reminds me of a poem by Ikkuyu, which has the wonderful line, 'If you don't know where you are going, any road is the right one.'
Nice. :)
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I like :)
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This talk of purpose reminds me of a poem by Ikkuyu, which has the wonderful line, 'If you don't know where you are going, any road is the right one.'
That's how my life has gone. Well, up to the age of 40, I just did what seemed the correct thing - career, marriage, mortgage. Then it all fell apart, and I started just doing whatever turned up, without any plan. This has the great virtue of working, whereas the plan was killing me.
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That's how my life has gone. Well, up to the age of 40, I just did what seemed the correct thing - career, marriage, mortgage. Then it all fell apart, and I started just doing whatever turned up, without any plan. This has the great virtue of working, whereas the plan was killing me.
Yeah, forty something is when it happened to me too. Oh my god the relief of letting it all collapse. God alone knows where I'm going now but that isn't the point, is it?
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Increasingly it seems to me that I'm just going to pieces, but then I guess we all do in time. Holding it all together can be such hard work that letting things fall apart can almost come as a relief. Time for my medicine, I think.
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Increasingly it seems to me that I'm just going to pieces, but then I guess we all do in time. Holding it all together can be such hard work that letting things fall apart can almost come as a relief. Time for my medicine, I think.
Know the feeling, take care.
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Increasingly it seems to me that I'm just going to pieces, but then I guess we all do in time. Holding it all together can be such hard work that letting things fall apart can almost come as a relief. Time for my medicine, I think.
Been there, know that one well. What NS said.
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Thanks for the kind words! I believe doctors use the acronym 'C F Bundy' on medical notes - Completely Fucked But Unfortunately Not Dead Yet.
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Would it wash in any other area of life today?
Mosques
Synagogues
Changing Rooms
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Mosques
Synagogues
They're part of the same shitty problem I was referring to, based on the same clownish fatuities.
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They're part of the same shitty problem I was referring to, based on the same clownish fatuities.
and Changing Rooms?
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and Changing Rooms?
Never watched it.