Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on July 10, 2017, 12:00:29 PM
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Cheering little article for a Monday, :o
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html
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Interesting little piece of useless info. Apparently there are now two civilian towns in Antarctica, one is Chilean, the other Argentinian. So if the world gets too hot, we can always go there.
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Cheering little article for a Monday, :o
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html
My, what a depressing read. I don't think we are psychologically prepared to contemplate apocalypse; we'll probably worry about it for a while and then go back to arguing about gods again :(
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My, what a depressing read. I don't think we are psychologically prepared to contemplate apocalypse; we'll probably worry about it for a while and then go back to arguing about gods again :(
I think most of the complex problems we have in politics are not within our capabilities to solve by rational deliberateness. The variables, which include the behaviour of over 7 billion individuals, are way beyond us and our ability to model. Notionally, at least, I this k we need to move away from consistency and be prepared for a tactical approach that tries different approaches and chooses what works, but I suspect that the timescales on that are broken. We might do something that works but it will be by luck.
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Very depressing indeed. :o
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Well...on the somewhat funnier side...I just saw an ad for a bidet. I am even surprised that they need to advertise. I wonder why and how westerners ever got into the toilet paper habit. I am sure you people always had plenty of water.
So help reverse climate change folks...and install a bidet TODAY! ;)
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I don't think there is a funny side to climate change!
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Well...on the somewhat funnier side...I just saw an ad for a bidet. I am even surprised that they need to advertise. I wonder why and how westerners ever got into the toilet paper habit. I am sure you people always had plenty of water.
So help reverse climate change folks...and install a bidet TODAY! ;)
Interesting idea, Sriram. Would I be right in thinking that what you call a "bidet" is a toilet seat which squirts water and hot air? I first came across them in Japan and have seripously thought of getting one.
To most people in Britain, I suspect, the word bidet suggests a strange piece of earthenware associated with French hotels - in fact there were two in my little French house. The belief (on these shores) is that they were invented for use in ... err .... houses of ill repute so that the ... err ... ladies could ensure that their clients would not be contaminated with terrible diseases.
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Interesting idea, Sriram. Would I be right in thinking that what you call a "bidet" is a toilet seat which squirts water and hot air? I first came across them in Japan and have seripously thought of getting one.
To most people in Britain, I suspect, the word bidet suggests a strange piece of earthenware associated with French hotels - in fact there were two in my little French house. The belief (on these shores) is that they were invented for use in ... err .... houses of ill repute so that the ... err ... ladies could ensure that their clients would not be contaminated with terrible diseases.
We have had a bidet in several of our homes, but they were rarely used for the purpose intended. My mother thought they were there for washing one's feet, for which they were very useful. ;D
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Don't think there is any clear evidence of bidets being an aid against climate change.
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Don't think there is any clear evidence of bidets being an aid against climate change.
I think Sriram sees them as the first line of defence against deforestation.
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Don't think there is any clear evidence of bidets being an aid against climate change.
Funny that, especially as they have to have a heat source for the hot water. ::)
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Perhaps the earth needs a shield made from bidets.
Or we could go to Mars in a fleet of space bidets.
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Interesting idea, Sriram. Would I be right in thinking that what you call a "bidet" is a toilet seat which squirts water and hot air? I first came across them in Japan and have seripously thought of getting one.
To most people in Britain, I suspect, the word bidet suggests a strange piece of earthenware associated with French hotels - in fact there were two in my little French house. The belief (on these shores) is that they were invented for use in ... err .... houses of ill repute so that the ... err ... ladies could ensure that their clients would not be contaminated with terrible diseases.
But wouldn't washing with water be the natural way?! How did the paper habit start, I wonder. In India and in most eastern countries toilet paper is almost unknown. Its always been water. Shower bidets are now in every home.
Bidets help by reducing paper.
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I am sorry I just saw an ad for a bidet and started off. Please continue your discussion on more serious aspects of climate change...
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But wouldn't washing with water be the natural way?! How did the paper habit start, I wonder. In India and in most eastern countries toilet paper is almost unknown. Its always been water. Shower bidets are now in every home.
Bidets help by reducing paper.
But unless you use cold water, it has to be heated somehow. Besides which, if you have a drought, using water for that purpose is wasteful.
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But wouldn't washing with water be the natural way?! How did the paper habit start, I wonder. In India and in most eastern countries toilet paper is almost unknown. Its always been water. Shower bidets are now in every home.
Bidets help by reducing paper.
But clean water takes energy to produce, as does heating it and any air used for drying. Towels requore laundering which also uses up resources.
It's possible to buy toilet paper from recycled sources, such as Ecoleaf, made by the Suma co-operative here in the U.K., that also give a percentage of their profits to a tree planting organisation.
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But unless you use cold water, it has to be heated somehow. Besides which, if you have a drought, using water for that purpose is wasteful.
Ah...maybe that's why paper started. Hot water in cold countries! In India we don't need hot water for such purposes, though in parts of the north it can get really cold in winter. :-\
I guess its never so bad during droughts that you don't have water for washing up. But using paper for this purpose is unknown. We always found it funny that westerners use paper.
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We don't use as much paper as heretofore thanks to modern technology.
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We don't use as much paper as heretofore thanks to modern technology.
yep, heretofore just use ridiculous amounts!
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yep, heretofore just use ridiculous amounts!
If tree planting is encouraged, not only will it help provide the paper will still use, but be a boost to the environment too.
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If tree planting is encouraged, not only will it help provide the paper will still use, but be a boost to the environment too.
Or just use recycled.
'Posh' paper has horrendous chemicals added to it to 'improve' its quality. Aside from perfumes and colours and the like, formaldehyde is used to make the paper thicker.
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Or just use recycled.
'Posh' paper has horrendous chemicals added to it to 'improve' its quality. Aside from perfumes and colours and the like, formaldehyde is used to make the paper thicker.
In the good old days we used to have to use newspaper and suffer the print coming off.
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In the good old days we used to have to use newspaper and suffer the print coming off.
Formaldehyde's in newsprint ink too.
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Formaldehyde's in newsprint ink too.
Now she tells me! :o
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It's illustrative of the problem of climate change that even such a basic subject such as how we deal with our own faecal matter, we have no idea of the impact of differing practices, or whether it could significantly change the situation going forward. I doubt any political party is going to get elected on a policy of dock leaves and weekly shites, and to be fair it may make little difference overall while we drown the world in plastic. I can picture a black market in supersoft thick toilet roll should any govt impose a return to Izal.
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I am sure if the entire west stops using paper for this purpose and uses water instead (its much cleaner let me add!) it would help in reducing deforestation. Recycling is possible only up to a point.
Another important point I was discussing elsewhere was about female hygiene products. There was an article about how millions of used pads are thrown into garbage heaps every day causing a massive health and disposal problem. They end up in land fills or clog up the drainage.
Reuseable pads are now available but very expensive. The old traditional system of using household cloth that is washed and reused is considered as better for the environment, especially in rural areas. This article was against the efforts by multinational companies promoting female hygiene products among rural folk.
Lot of little things we don't realize, result in massive damage to the environment.
I wonder about condom disposal too! Literally in millions every day!
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I am sure if the entire west stops using paper for this purpose and uses water instead (its much cleaner let me add!) it would help in reducing deforestation. Recycling is possible only up to a point.
Another important point I was discussing elsewhere was about female hygiene products. There was an article about how millions of used pads are thrown into garbage heaps every day causing a massive health and disposal problem. They end up in land fills or clog up the drainage.
Reuseable pads are now available but very expensive. The old traditional system of using household cloth that is washed and reused is considered as better for the environment, especially in rural areas. This article was against the efforts by multinational companies promoting female hygiene products among rural folk.
Lot of little things we don't realize, result in massive damage to the environment.
Writing 'I am sure' is not a method.
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Using household cloth chafes and unless you are a lady person you probably don't appreciate the agony.
It's not hard to make reusable pads with cotton and cotton wadding. In fact there are cooperatives in the emerging economies that produce these, by and for women so that they can be independent and attend work or school without needing to take a break.
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i love bidets & think every home should have one in every bathroom. All new houses built with bidets standard.
Can't imagine not using toilet paper (recyclable) though. This will sound a bit icky but wiping the worst off before using the bidet seems right.
As for femine sanitary products sririam - if you were a woman you would not want to use washable cloths, no way. Revolting. They'd have to be soaked in a tub, then boiled. A household with three or four women there would be three or four tubs; no one would want to accidentally use someone else's cloth. If out they'd be wrapped up and put in handbag. Back to the dark ages. Nöooooooooo There are limits!
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i love bidets & think every home should have one in every bathroom. All new houses built with bidets standard.
Can't imagine not using toilet paper (recyclable) though. This will sound a bit icky but wiping the worst off before using the bidet seems right.
As for femine sanitary products sririam - if you were a woman you would not want to use washable cloths, no way. Revolting. They'd have to be soaked in a tub, then boiled. A household with three or four women there would be three or four tubs; no one would want to accidentally use someone else's cloth. If out they'd be wrapped up and put in handbag. Back to the dark ages. Nöooooooooo There are limits!
Ok...fair enough...but what is the solution to the problem of disposal and environmental damage?
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i love bidets & think every home should have one in every bathroom. All new houses built with bidets standard.
Can't imagine not using toilet paper (recyclable) though. This will sound a bit icky but wiping the worst off before using the bidet seems right.
As for femine sanitary products sririam - if you were a woman you would not want to use washable cloths, no way. Revolting. They'd have to be soaked in a tub, then boiled. A household with three or four women there would be three or four tubs; no one would want to accidentally use someone else's cloth. If out they'd be wrapped up and put in handbag. Back to the dark ages. Nöooooooooo There are limits!
In some places in the world it's reusables or nothing. In the UK many women opt for mooncups. I use 100% natural and biodegradable products. Brands like Always contain horrific levels of chemicals.
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In some places in the world it's reusables or nothing. In the UK many women opt for mooncups. I use 100% natural and biodegradable products. Brands like Always contain horrific levels of chemicals.
I'm past all that but still have sympathy for those who use them, Natural and biodegradable would get my vote.
Didn't know about moon cups so googled. Interesting, i expect some women find them easier to use than others. Fjrom what I read, you don't feel it inside you which is good.
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In some places in the world it's reusables or nothing. In the UK many women opt for mooncups. I use 100% natural and biodegradable products. Brands like Always contain horrific levels of chemicals.
I have never heard of moon cups before.
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I have never heard of moon cups before.
Women with latex allergy can't use them AFAIK. I know loads of people who swear by them.
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There was a time when women lived together apart from men during their 'time of the moon', it was a precious time to them, they told stories, spoke of private things and cared for eachother. The men were a little afraid, believed women were more powerful at that time.
Excellent :D!
(Rhiannon I'm going to read every page of the Searching for God thread, you've piqued my interest.)
Moon cups aren't all made of latex -
http://www.mooncup.co.uk/using-mooncup/is-it-safe-to-use-the-mooncup-if-i-have-a-latex-allergy/
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I'm going to read every page of the Searching for God thread
That would be like reading 'War and Peace' and just as exciting! ;D I don't think I have ever met anyone who has actually read the whole of that book.
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There was a time when women lived together apart from men during their 'time of the moon', it was a precious time to them, they told stories, spoke of private things and cared for eachother. The men were a little afraid, believed women were more powerful at that time.
Excellent :D!
(Rhiannon I'm going to read every page of the Searching for God thread, you've piqued my interest.)
Moon cups aren't all made of latex -
http://www.mooncup.co.uk/using-mooncup/is-it-safe-to-use-the-mooncup-if-i-have-a-latex-allergy/
c
Well there you go.
My girls have synchronised moontimes.
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I'm going to read every page of the Searching for God thread
That would be liking reading 'War and Peace' and just as exciting! ;D I don't think I have ever met anyone who has actually read the whole of that book.
I got about three quarters of the way through and was to say the least surprised how readable it is - it's quite the page-turner; it's just very, very, very long.
Remembrance of Things Past (vastly longer) - now that's a slog.
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Genuine conversation with an ex:
Me: Not feeling great, I've got my period.
Him: Don't call it that!
Me: Err, ok, why?
Him: It's disgusting!
Me: Err, ok, what do I call it then?
Him: Say you have a whatsit.
:-X
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Genuine conversation with an ex:
Me: Not feeling great, I've got my period.
Him: Don't call it that!
Me: Err, ok, why?
Him: It's disgusting!
Me: Err, ok, what do I call it then?
Him: Say you have a whatsit.
:-X
Weird!
Maybe someone should start a thread to discuss periods and the menopause. Maybe NS might like to do so as he is fast approaching his 1000th thread. I wonder if there is a special award for creating so many topics? ;D
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Very weird!
I read War & Peace a long time ago, couldn't put it down. I intend to read again but would have to put it down frequently now so it must wait until I have more time to myself.
It's very good, i recommend it.
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Very weird!
I read War & Peace a long time ago, couldn't put it down. I intend to read again but would have to put it down frequently now so it must wait until I have more time to myself.
It's very good, i recommend it.
I started it once, but it was definitely not my sort of book, so I soon gave up the onerous task.
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c
Well there you go.
My girls have synchronised moontimes.
That happens a lot when women live together. If they're regular whichnot everyone is. Imagine boarding schools where everyone has PMT at same time!
(I started it once, but it was definitely not my sort of book, so I soon gave up the onerous task.
Wonder if it is my sort of book now Floo,my taste is different to when I was younger.
Wish I'd seen the TV drama series.)
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That happens a lot when women live together. If they're regular whichnot everyone is. Imagine boarding schools where everyone has PMT at same time!
Fortunately, it's apparently an urban myth.
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This thread is weird. A discussion about an apocalyptic vision of the future morphs effortlessly into banter about tampons and toilet paper. In a sense, we are all science deniers in that we can't or don't face up to challenges of such magnitude. We are programmed to be passionate about our nearest and dearest, we give our all for our children, but we care scarcely anything about suffering due to poverty in Somalia or the living conditions for our great grandchildren 100 years hence.
Maybe this is the solution to the Fermi paradox; advanced civilisations self annihilate; to burn brightly means to burn quickly; the characteristics that give rise to success - appetite, hunger for prosperity, contain within them the seeds of eventual downfall. The spectacular rise of one species does not come cost free; we fund our growth by a sequestering of resources, in the process destroying the balance which underpinned our beginnings.
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Indeed, torridon, and along the way we managed to cover War and Peace! As I noted on one of my earlier posts in a seemingly futile attemot to keep thread on topic, even when we discuss issues that may have an impact such as disposal of our own faecal matter, we seem to do so without any real analysis or facts. This is, in the main, due to it being difficult to find any facts on such subjects because minimal, if any, analysis has been done on huge ranges of activities, because the will isn't really there.
Thus, individuals are forced, either to ignore the impacts of most activities, or apply a set of unvalidated or naive heuristics, so that we end up with 'chemicals bad', or 'primitive good', or 'recycling good' as mantras that we apply unthinkingly and sans numbers. Society seems to work more as a giant conglomerated rule of thumb than anything more scientific. Again as mentioned, it seems we lack both the will and the method to do anything better.
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This thread is weird. A discussion about an apocalyptic vision of the future morphs effortlessly into banter about tampons and toilet paper. In a sense, we are all science deniers in that we can't or don't face up to challenges of such magnitude. We are programmed to be passionate about our nearest and dearest, we give our all for our children, but we care scarcely anything about suffering due to poverty in Somalia or the living conditions for our great grandchildren 100 years hence.
Maybe this is the solution to the Fermi paradox; advanced civilisations self annihilate; to burn brightly means to burn quickly; the characteristics that give rise to success - appetite, hunger for prosperity, contain within them the seeds of eventual downfall. The spectacular rise of one species does not come cost free; we fund our growth by a sequestering of resources, in the process destroying the balance which underpinned our beginnings.
It is always the little things that add up and magnify into major catastrophes. The butterfly effect!
Its the toilet papers and the trees cut down for it, the hygiene products and condoms that clog up drainages or end up in landfills or oceans, the coke and drinking water plastic bottles, the little plastic covers that we carry vegetables in, those plastic containers in supermarkets......its all these that add up to the massive plastic and waste problem.
Of course the industrial pollutants, oil spills, vehicle fumes etc. are very important but the other day to day ones are no less important. A small change in lifestyle or a little inconvenience can make a large difference in reducing these problems.
Whether we can at this stage reverse or even contain climate change is a different matter. Probably not! But awareness of our individual lifestyle contributions to these problems can help.
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It is always the little things that add up and magnify into major catastrophes. The butterfly effect!
Its the toilet papers and the trees cut down for it, the hygiene products and condoms that clog up drainages or end up in landfills or oceans, the coke and drinking water plastic bottles, the little plastic covers that we carry vegetables in, those plastic containers in supermarkets......its all these that add up to the massive plastic and waste problem.
Of course the industrial pollutants, oil spills, vehicle fumes etc. are very important but the other day to day ones are no less important. A small change in lifestyle or a little inconvenience can make a large difference in reducing these problems.
Whether we can at this stage reverse or even contain climate change is a different matter. Probably not! But awareness of our individual lifestyle contributions to these problems can help.
But to because of problems you need to quantify them correctly, not just based on your gut instinct which is what you are applying here to the use of toilet paper. You also have to evaluate what the effects of something are which you obviously didn't do when you talked about menstrual cloths, taking no account of the energy needed to boil water for cleaning. This is indicative of your general bias towards what you see as more traditional solutions and your general blindspot in this area.
BTW you have misunderstood the butterfly effect. It isn't as your representation of it here that many billions of butterflies flapping their wings cause a huge effect, rather that a single wave of a single butterfly's wings can cause a huge effect because of sensitivity to conditions. It's a valid point to raise in terms of the difficulty in determining the pros and cons of any actions taken though.
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But to because of problems you need to quantify them correctly, not just based on your gut instinct which is what you are applying here to the use of toilet paper. You also have to evaluate what the effects of something are which you obviously didn't do when you talked about menstrual cloths, taking no account of the energy needed to boil water for cleaning. This is indicative of your general bias towards what you see as more traditional solutions and your general blindspot in this area.
BTW you have misunderstood the butterfly effect. It isn't as your representation of it here that many billions of butterflies flapping their wings cause a huge effect, rather that a single wave of a single butterfly's wings can cause a huge effect because of sensitivity to conditions. It's a valid point to raise in terms of the difficulty in determining the pros and cons of any actions taken though.
Yes....it is based on a general feeling about the problems caused by our day to day living.
I understand what the Butterfly effect means. That is why I said that seemingly minor matters add up to create major situations. Toilet paper or tampons may seem like minor lifestyle matters but they are not.
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Yes....it is based on a general feeling about the problems caused by our day to day living.
I understand what the Butterfly effect means. That is why I said that seemingly minor matters add up to create major situations. Toilet paper or tampons may seem like minor lifestyle matters but they are not.
Your first sentence is borderline redundancy except for the it hiding your actual argument which is that primitive is best and that is something you choose without doing any numerical calculations. It's a simple bias, and in the absence of any data worthless.
And you have simply repeated your misunderstanding of the butterfly effect, link below provided for you. It is not that many billions of activities add up, I.e. your position is that the many billions of sheets of tampons add up to something significant , rather that in certain initial conditions the outcomes can be wildly different because of a single tampon/butterfly.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
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The fact is that women need menstrual protection. It's not only messy to do without, it's sore. Mooncups abd similar may be the way to go.
But as with periods there are so many other things that need to be made and sorted out - equipment for hospitals, cladding for buildings, computers for schools - where do we even begin?
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Your first sentence is borderline redundancy except for the it hiding your actual argument which is that primitive is best and that is something you choose without doing any numerical calculations. It's a simple bias, and in the absence of any data worthless.
And you have simply repeated your misunderstanding of the butterfly effect, link below provided for you. It is not that many billions of activities add up, I.e. your position is that the many billions of sheets of tampons add up to something significant , rather that in certain initial conditions the outcomes can be wildly different because of a single tampon/butterfly.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
No, I am not talking of billions of tampons as equivalent to billions of butterflies. I am talking of the entire tampon situation as a single butterfly effect....with other factors adding up to create the storm.
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The fact is that women need menstrual protection. It's not only messy to do without, it's sore. Mooncups abd similar may be the way to go.
But as with periods there are so many other things that need to be made and sorted out - equipment for hospitals, cladding for buildings, computers for schools - where do we even begin?
Yes...that's my point. Its not just the big stuff but the many little things that have become a part of our daily lives that are creating the problem. It is indeed difficult to know where to start.
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No, I am not talking of billions of tampons as equivalent to billions of butterflies. I am talking of the entire tampon situation as a single butterfly effect....with other factors adding up to create the storm.
Which is again missing the entire point. The butterfly effect is meant to be a single very very small cause so it's a single flap of a single butterfly's wing. The entire method of menstrual hygiene is equivalent to everything every butterfly has ever done.
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Which is again missing the entire point. The butterfly effect is meant to be a single very very small cause so it's a single flap of a single butterfly's wing. The entire method of menstrual hygiene is equivalent to everything every butterfly has ever done.
Ok...let me make one final comment on this. The butterfly effect is meant to highlight how seemingly very minor events can contribute to a major situations. That is all it is about.
People normally tend to think of tampons as a normal day to day matter of no significance to climate change. They only think of industrial pollution and such other stuff as important. My point is that it is not so. Even a seemingly minor issue like tampons can contribute to environmental damage and climate change.
Thanks then...
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Ok...let me make one final comment on this. The butterfly effect is meant to highlight how seemingly very minor events can contribute to a major situations. That is all it is about.
People normally tend to think of tampons as a normal day to day matter of no significance to climate change. They only think of industrial pollution and such other stuff as important. My point is that it is not so. Even a seemingly minor issue like tampons can contribute to environmental damage and climate change.
Thanks then...
And usage by billions is not a very small event in terms of what the butterfly effect was coined to describe. It is again the single use of a tampon that would be described by it. Large scale use of anything is not the butterfly effect.
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I have just seen this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40566524
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Good.
More of this thing, I say.
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It is always the little things that add up and magnify into major catastrophes. The butterfly effect!
Its the toilet papers and the trees cut down for it, the hygiene products and condoms that clog up drainages or end up in landfills or oceans, the coke and drinking water plastic bottles, the little plastic covers that we carry vegetables in, those plastic containers in supermarkets......its all these that add up to the massive plastic and waste problem.
Of course the industrial pollutants, oil spills, vehicle fumes etc. are very important but the other day to day ones are no less important. A small change in lifestyle or a little inconvenience can make a large difference in reducing these problems.
Whether we can at this stage reverse or even contain climate change is a different matter. Probably not! But awareness of our individual lifestyle contributions to these problems can help.
Making small adjustments to lifestyle is all very well, but perhaps this is just tinkering. We've spotted a huge iceberg ahead so we set about hurriedly giving the Titanic a new lick of paint. The problems created by our success run deeper and whilst it is testimony to our vision and inventiveness that we can countenance geoengineering solutions to fix things I'd think such planetary scale engineering is science fiction to be effective within the timescales of the changes that we have already set in motion. As it is, species are already going extinct at rates not seen since the last large asteroid strike, and climate change has barely begun to kick in yet. I think the problems are within us, our appetites and tendencies were formed when we were small bands of low population density hunter gatherers who had to gorge themselves when they came across rich resources and we've not stopped gorging ourselves since we discovered rich energy sources in the ground, fossil fuels. We can't easily quell appetites that were selected by resource scarcity and our cultural evolution has exponentially outpaced our biological evolution and we now live a city life psychologically decoupled from the energy constraints of a local environment that would have limited our forebears. I don't see any easy way out of this, our political systems favour short term thinking that have to appease populist instincts; life is going to be tougher for our children because we cannot change direction or reinvent ourselves.
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I have just seen this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40566524
About time too.
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It's illustrative of the problem of climate change that even such a basic subject such as how we deal with our own faecal matter, we have no idea of the impact of differing practices, or whether it could significantly change the situation going forward. I doubt any political party is going to get elected on a policy of dock leaves and weekly shites, and to be fair it may make little difference overall while we drown the world in plastic. I can picture a black market in supersoft thick toilet role should any govt impose a return to Izal.
Coincidentally, I have just been reading an article in a (braille) magazine called 'Progress' about Bronco and Izal!!! :)
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I have never heard of moon cups before.
Nor had I until comparatively recently. I was wondering how women throughout history have managed and followed up various articles. It is an interesting aspect of history.
n
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Making small adjustments to lifestyle is all very well, but perhaps this is just tinkering. We've spotted a huge iceberg ahead so we set about hurriedly giving the Titanic a new lick of paint. The problems created by our success run deeper and whilst it is testimony to our vision and inventiveness that we can countenance geoengineering solutions to fix things I'd think such planetary scale engineering is science fiction to be effective within the timescales of the changes that we have already set in motion. As it is, species are already going extinct at rates not seen since the last large asteroid strike, and climate change has barely begun to kick in yet. I think the problems are within us, our appetites and tendencies were formed when we were small bands of low population density hunter gatherers who had to gorge themselves when they came across rich resources and we've not stopped gorging ourselves since we discovered rich energy sources in the ground, fossil fuels. We can't easily quell appetites that were selected by resource scarcity and our cultural evolution has exponentially outpaced our biological evolution and we now live a city life psychologically decoupled from the energy constraints of a local environment that would have limited our forebears. I don't see any easy way out of this, our political systems favour short term thinking that have to appease populist instincts; life is going to be tougher for our children because we cannot change direction or reinvent ourselves.
Here is something on the sixth mass extinction...
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/11/world/sutter-mass-extinction-ceballos-study/index.html
But another way of looking at it could be that there have already been five mass extinctions and in spite of that we humans arose! So...maybe out of the sixth one something better will arise.
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Whatever emerges it can't be any fucking worse.
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Whatever emerges it can't be any fucking worse.
That was pretty much my thought Rhi. But I thought I would be sounding to downbeat. I'm glad it's not only me!
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Thousands of tourists (38000 in one year) visiting Antarctica are adding to the problem....
http://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/antarctica-responsible-tourism/index.html
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Meanwhile Earth Overshoot day this year is anticipated to be August 2 ..... http://www.overshootday.org/
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That was pretty much my thought Rhi. But I thought I would be sounding to downbeat. I'm glad it's not only me!
Don't get me wrong, I love people (well, some of them) and I love life and relationships (all kinds) and the richness that they bring. But as a species we've developed the means to wipe not only ourselves out but pretty much all of life in several ways, which is pretty stupid. And we also think we belong at the top of the tree, so to speak, which is also pretty stupid.
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Here is something on the sixth mass extinction...
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/11/world/sutter-mass-extinction-ceballos-study/index.html
But another way of looking at it could be that there have already been five mass extinctions and in spite of that we humans arose! So...maybe out of the sixth one something better will arise.
We are not in a mass extinction at this time. Granted our actions might lead to one, but a mass extinction would make what is happening now look like a picnic.
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Don't get me wrong, I love people (well, some of them) and I love life and relationships (all kinds) and the richness that they bring. But as a species we've developed the means to wipe not only ourselves out but pretty much all of life in several ways, which is pretty stupid. And we also think we belong at the top of the tree, so to speak, which is also pretty stupid.
Oh yes I understand that.
It always confuses me that as a species we can be so brilliant, so intelligent ( I was watching 'Hospital' on BBC2 this evening - what we can do medically & surgically is astounding), so funny, so compassionate - and then we can be so stupid, ignorant, nasty, murderous and wilfully blind to the destruction we wreak.
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We are not in a mass extinction at this time. Granted our actions might lead to one, but a mass extinction would make what is happening now look like a picnic.
Its already happening. It is a process that will take several centuries before it stabilizes.
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It seems the article in the OP has kicked off a stramash.
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/7/11/15950966/climate-change-doom-journalism
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Very scary if it is accurate. :o
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The US Environmental Agency has now removed Climate Change from its list of 'popular' topics from its website, this apparently, to bring the website in line with Mr Trump's personal priorities.
https://www.epa.gov/ (https://www.epa.gov/)
Climate papers are still available, but now there is no longer an overview/introductory page for climate change and you have to search for information rather than being presented up front as a mainline topic of environmental concern.
Here is the original https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/environmental-topics_.html (https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/environmental-topics_.html)
The EPA must be squirming at being leaned on.
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So we are expected to believe that the American public is insufficiently interested in Climate change to merit a headline topic on the EPA website, although 'pesticides', 'radon' and 'bed bugs' are apparently worth a mention.
A quick look at Google search trends is sufficient to demolish such a notion :
https://trends.google.co.uk/trends/explore?q=%2Fm%2F0cs9q,%2Fm%2F0cyg8,radon,bed%20bugs (https://trends.google.co.uk/trends/explore?q=%2Fm%2F0cs9q,%2Fm%2F0cyg8,radon,bed%20bugs)
Mr Trump is denying information to his people; he would be well at home in North Korea.
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I am sure if the entire west stops using paper for this purpose and uses water instead (its much cleaner let me add!) it would help in reducing deforestation. Recycling is possible only up to a point.
Another important point I was discussing elsewhere was about female hygiene products. There was an article about how millions of used pads are thrown into garbage heaps every day causing a massive health and disposal problem. They end up in land fills or clog up the drainage.
Reuseable pads are now available but very expensive. The old traditional system of using household cloth that is washed and reused is considered as better for the environment, especially in rural areas. This article was against the efforts by multinational companies promoting female hygiene products among rural folk.
Lot of little things we don't realize, result in massive damage to the environment.
I wonder about condom disposal too! Literally in millions every day!
Here is something about this from today's news ....
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-41238272
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A 250-metre long fatberg weighing 130 tonnes has been found blocking a sewer.
The solid mass of congealed fat, wet wipes, nappies, oil and condoms formed in the Victorian-era tunnel in Whitechapel, London.
Thames Water described it as one of the largest it had seen and said it would take three weeks to remove.
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How much of this is ending up in the sea...Goodness knows!
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People are stupid if they put wet wipes, nappies etc down their loos! We had a septic tank at our previous property, the drain to which used to get blocked very quickly if anything unsuitable was put down it, I was the poor so and so who had the job of cleaning the drain out! So as you can imagine it was made quite clear to everyone that nothing but toilet paper was flushed down it, or they had me to deal with.
When we moved to this property, which is on mains drains, thank goodness, our next door neighbour explained that they had been a problem with the previous owners who blocked the drain between our two properties on a frequent basis. :o The wife always put her makeup wet wipes down the loo and grandchild's nappies! I make it my business to check the drain on a weekly basis, during the five years we have lived here, there hasn't been a problem so far, which has pleased our neighbour. :)
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People are stupid if they put wet wipes, nappies etc down their loos! We had a septic tank at our previous property, the drain to which used to get blocked very quickly if anything unsuitable was put down it, I was the poor so and so who had the job of cleaning the drain out! So as you can imagine it was made quite clear to everyone that nothing but toilet paper was flushed down it, or they had me to deal with.
When we moved to this property, which is on mains drains, thank goodness, our next door neighbour explained that they had been a problem with the previous owners who blocked the drain between our two properties on a frequent basis. :o The wife always put her makeup wet wipes down the loo and grandchild's nappies! I make it my business to check the drain on a weekly basis, during the five years we have lived here, there hasn't been a problem so far, which has pleased our neighbour. :)
Land fills and rivers and oceans and lakes are full of tissues, diapers, sanitary pads, condoms, water bottles, plastic containers and what not. Unless we all change our life style and find ways to avoid 'using and throwing' stuff, this situation is not going to improve. It could become catastrophic.
Using water instead of toilet rolls, handkerchiefs instead of tissues, carrying water instead of buying it, carrying ones own cloth shopping bags instead of taking plastic ones from the shop, using reusable sanitary pads, using washable cloth nappies instead of ready made diapers for babies....there are many ways in which we all can contribute to reducing this problem.
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People are stupid if they put wet wipes, nappies etc down their loos!
That's nothing, I stayed in a Guest House in Plymouth and they had a notice in the bathroom saying 'Please do not put foreign bodies down the toilet'. :o
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That's nothing, I stayed in a Guest House in Plymouth and they had a notice in the bathroom saying 'Please do not put foreign bodies down the toilet'. :o
So it was ok to put British bodies down the loo? ;D
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Land fills and rivers and oceans and lakes are full of tissues, diapers, sanitary pads, condoms, water bottles, plastic containers and what not. Unless we all change our life style and find ways to avoid 'using and throwing' stuff, this situation is not going to improve. It could become catastrophic.
Using water instead of toilet rolls, handkerchiefs instead of tissues, carrying water instead of buying it, carrying ones own cloth shopping bags instead of taking plastic ones from the shop, using reusable sanitary pads, using washable cloth nappies instead of ready made diapers for babies....there are many ways in which we all can contribute to reducing this problem.
No one feels that such fairly simple changes could contribute to alleviating the situation?!
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No one feels that such fairly simple changes could contribute to alleviating the situation?!
Says who?
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No one feels that such fairly simple changes could contribute to alleviating the situation?!
Of course, Sriram,
Just didn't think it needed commenting on, especially as some time ago we had a thread on such things as using reusable bags instead of plastic ones, and the usefulness of charging for plastic bags, for instance.
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No one feels that such fairly simple changes could contribute to alleviating the situation?!
They may do but as pointed out last time you need to do the work that things will actually improve rather than just assert that the changes you suggest will work
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Must be time for cigars all round before the next flood or hurricane or whatever?
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They may do but as pointed out last time you need to do the work that things will actually improve rather than just assert that the changes you suggest will work
What????
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What????
You need to show your working with figures on whether changes will improve the situation. You were asked about this earlier in the thread. You ignored it.
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You need to show your working with figures on whether changes will improve the situation. You were asked about this earlier in the thread. You ignored it.
You seriously want me to 'show' you that not dumping millions of tissues, diapers, condoms, plastic bottles etc. into rivers and seas will improve the environmental conditions and prevent degradation?!! ::) Hmmmm!
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You seriously want me to 'show' you that not dumping millions of tissues, diapers, condoms, plastic bottles etc. into rivers and seas will improve the environmental conditions and prevent degradation?!! ::) Hmmmm!
No,I want as I asked you last time to show that your suggested changes do not have an equivalent or worse impact.
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No,I want as I asked you last time to show that your suggested changes do not have an equivalent or worse impact.
I can do no such thing. I thought it was common sense.
You do go off at a tangent...don't you?! ::)
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How is that a tangent? Suggestions need to be properly thought through before taking action.
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Common sense. Oh dear, Sriram.
"Common sense" is a shorthand way of saying "I have no evidence to support this belief and have no intention of searching for any evidence".
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I can do no such thing. I thought it was common sense.
You do go off at a tangent...don't you?! ::)
I go along with taking your own bags when shopping, which I do, but the rest is just not practical in this day and age, especially the idea of not using toilet paper!
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Sriram
You may find this publication of interest:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69592/pb13811-waste-water-2012.pdf
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I go along with taking your own bags when shopping, which I do, but the rest is just not practical in this day and age, especially the idea of not using toilet paper!
What is not practical? Carrying a hanky instead of using tissues is not practical? Using cloth nappies for babies instead of diapers is not practical? Using reusable sanitary pads is not practical? Carrying own water is not practical? Really?!! ::)
People even in western countries were doing all this till recent decades. People in many countries still do.
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Now I am all the more convinced that demanding 'evidence' has become more of an automated response than a reasonable request.
And secondly, no one will individually bother to change anything in their personal lives to contribute to such a serious matter.
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Now I am all the more convinced that demanding 'evidence' has become more of an automated response than a reasonable request.
And secondly, no one will individually bother to change anything in their personal lives to contribute to such a serious matter.
Your lack of evidence and your attacking the posters rather than dealing with the points are both noted.
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What is not practical? Carrying a hanky instead of using tissues is not practical?
Not if you have rhinitis like mine.
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What is not practical? ...
Floo said:
... especially the idea of not using toilet paper!
So maybe best to focus on that? (over and out...)
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Sriram.... I'm with you on carrying water in a container. I remember when water in plastic bottles came on sale and I couldn't quite get my head round it.... was even more surprised to see people buying water and carrying it around. I think the idea of spring water attracts many but there is also the issue as to how long the water has been contained in the bottle.
Re nappies, disposables only came on the market in the early 80s, and until then we had all managed with the terry towelling nappies. I remember using disposables only on occasions, nowadays they seem to be used all the time. My daughter has a friend that uses the TT nappies but she is the only person I know, no doubt there will be others.
Otherwise, depending on the strength of the tissue, most will disintegrate fairly quickly.
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I think that the part of Sriram's message I do not agree with is the assumption that modern practices are harmful to the environment. Not many years ago sewage was dumped in the sea but now, in Britain, sewage is treated so that the effluent (which is discharged into natural watercourses) is clean. The sludge is used as a fertiliser.
In Britain, to the best of my knowledge, most plastics are appropriately recycled. Paper products, formed from cellulose, decompose readily and are part of the sludge which will be used on farmland or are recycled to become part of other paper products. Europe, generally, has effective recycling policies and does not greatly contribute to the plastic waste problem. Waste may also be incinerated and the ash put to some useful purpose.
It may even be that using toilet paper is less costly than water, which has to be purified, transported, and heated, and then, after use, transported and treated before it can be returned to water courses.
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Hi SweetPea...Yes..I agree with you. The 'use and throw' lifestyle gives rise to greater waste which ends up in rivers and oceans, most of which is non biodegradable. Just imagine millions of plastic bottles, containers, diapers, condoms, sanitary pads, wet wipes and tissues being thrown in garbage heaps every single day!! I read somewhere that there will soon be more plastic then fish in the oceans.
Everyone wants to blame governments and factories...but no one wants to change their own lifestyle even a little to help in reducing the problem.
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Everyone wants to blame governments and factories...but no one wants to change their own lifestyle even a little to help in reducing the problem.
Over the last couple of years, there has been a near revolution in British retailing. The government has imposed a levy for plastic bags: each (formerly free) plastic bag used by a supermarket customer carries a charge of 5p (which then goes to a good cause). The use of plastic bags has plummeted to about 10% of former usage. Supermarkets also collect used bags for recycling.
Government encouraged behaviour change?
I note that in India lightweight plastic bags are now banned.
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Over the last couple of years, there has been a near revolution in British retailing. The government has imposed a levy for plastic bags: each (formerly free) plastic bag used by a supermarket customer carries a charge of 5p (which then goes to a good cause). The use of plastic bags has plummeted to about 10% of former usage. Supermarkets also collect used bags for recycling.
Government encouraged behaviour change?
I note that in India lightweight plastic bags are now banned.
That should be govts. It was a devolved matter and the charge applied in Wales in 2011, NI 2013, Scotland 2014 and England 2015.
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You are, of course, quite right NS. I blame the Conservatives.
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In the UK we could do much better on plastics:
Only a third of UK consumer plastic packaging is recycled (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/21/only-a-third-of-uk-consumer-plastic-packaging-is-recycled)
Of the 1.5m tonnes of recyclable plastic waste used by consumers in Britain in 2015 only 500,000 tonnes was recycled, according to the figures compiled by Co-op from the Recoup UK Household Plastics Collection survey.
This figure means that the recycling of plastic is considerably below the national average for recycling; currently 45% of recyclable goods are recycled each year.
Ref to survey: Recoup UK Household plastics collection survey (http://www.recoup.org/p/229/uk-household-plastics-collection-survey-2016)
And overall waste recycling in 2015 dropped compared to 2014 - I doubt that was to due to less waste being generated :(
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One more relevant article on this...
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/23/sport/volvo-ocean-race-dee-caffari-plastics-ocean-health/index.html
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She's witnessed awe-inspiring sights at sea, but yachtswoman Dee Caffari has also been left "dumbfounded" by the vast floating islands of plastic and rubbish she has seen in the world's oceans.
According to the Plastic Oceans website, 550 million plastic straws are thrown away every day in the US and the UK, while worldwide more than 500 million plastic bottles are used every year and more than one trillion plastic bags are discarded.
More than eight million tonnes of plastic are dumped into the ocean every year, according to the Ellen MacArthur Foundation (EMF). About 50% of it is used once and then discarded, and 91% never recycled.
"We've created this problem for our planet and unless we actively do something about it or stop using it or make manufacturing change it's only going to get worse," says the 44-year-old Caffari.
As well as the visible trash, scientists and environmentalists are worried about the level of micro-plastics in the ocean, minute pieces of plastic less than five millimeters in diameter.
These come from sources such as cosmetics, clothing and industrial processes as well as the breakdown of larger plastic items.
Fish, other sealife and birds mistake it for food. In turn, this plastic enters the human food chain and is ingested by us.
"Plastic is on the menu," warned Prince Charles in his speech in Malta.
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One more relevant article on this...
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/23/sport/volvo-ocean-race-dee-caffari-plastics-ocean-health/index.html
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She's witnessed awe-inspiring sights at sea, but yachtswoman Dee Caffari has also been left "dumbfounded" by the vast floating islands of plastic and rubbish she has seen in the world's oceans.
According to the Plastic Oceans website, 550 million plastic straws are thrown away every day in the US and the UK, while worldwide more than 500 million plastic bottles are used every year and more than one trillion plastic bags are discarded.
More than eight million tonnes of plastic are dumped into the ocean every year, according to the Ellen MacArthur Foundation (EMF). About 50% of it is used once and then discarded, and 91% never recycled.
"We've created this problem for our planet and unless we actively do something about it or stop using it or make manufacturing change it's only going to get worse," says the 44-year-old Caffari.
As well as the visible trash, scientists and environmentalists are worried about the level of micro-plastics in the ocean, minute pieces of plastic less than five millimeters in diameter.
These come from sources such as cosmetics, clothing and industrial processes as well as the breakdown of larger plastic items.
Fish, other sealife and birds mistake it for food. In turn, this plastic enters the human food chain and is ingested by us.
"Plastic is on the menu," warned Prince Charles in his speech in Malta.
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I've just had two plastic sandwiches for my dinner ,,sorry , ham !
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According to the Plastic Oceans website, 550 million plastic straws are thrown away every day in the US and the UK,
Given that there are 380million people in total between those two countries, that means that every man woman and child uses nearly two straws each, every day!
I would like to know how they worked that one out.
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Given that there are 380million people in total between those two countries, that means that every man woman and child uses nearly two straws each, every day!
I would like to know how they worked that one out.
sums mate , sums ;)
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Plastic pollution has reached the Arctic.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-42990391/plastic-pollution-reaching-record-levels-in-once-pristine-arctic
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Enough doom & gloom. One of the most lifeless placers on the earth is not our fault at all:
The oceanic pole of inaccessibility ( 48° 52′ 36″S 123° 23′ 36″W ) is the place in the ocean that is farthest from land. It lies in the South Pacific Ocean, 2,688 km (1,670 mi) from the nearest lands: Ducie Island (part of the Pitcairn Islands) in the north, Motu Nui (part of the Easter Islands) in the northeast, and Maher Island (near the larger Siple Island, off the coast of Marie Byrd Land, Antarctica) in the south.
Known as "Point Nemo", Latin for "no one" and also a reference to Jules Verne's Captain Nemo, it lies more than 1,400 nautical miles from the nearest land.[16] This point was featured in the short story, The Call of Cthulhu, by H. P. Lovecraft as the location of the fictional city of R'lyeh.
The area is also known as a "spacecraft cemetery" because hundreds of decommissioned satellites, space stations, and other spacecraft have been deposited there upon re-entering the atmosphere to lessen the risk of hitting any inhabited locations.[17] Point Nemo is relatively lifeless; its location within the South Pacific Gyre blocks nutrients from reaching the area, and being so far from land it gets little nutrient run-off from coastal waters.[18]
(Extract from Wiki)
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So...we are ruining Point Nemo too! That's nice!
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Human activity is causing harm everywhere on our planet.
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Human activity is causing harm everywhere on our planet.
So to paraphrase Shakespeare - 'First, let's kill all the humans'?
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Ah...maybe that's why paper started. Hot water in cold countries! In India we don't need hot water for such purposes, though in parts of the north it can get really cold in winter. :-\
I guess its never so bad during droughts that you don't have water for washing up. But using paper for this purpose is unknown. We always found it funny that westerners use paper.
Using paper isn't that bad and how about the cost of when we have to keep on changing broken lavatory seats, broken by easterners standing on them, tending to continue their propensity of wanting to continue crapping in the same way they do all over place in the fields etc, in the countries they come from, where there's very little in the way of having something to sit on.
Regards ippy
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So...we are ruining Point Nemo too! That's nice!
Point Nemo is lifeless. So is the Moon. There is nothing to kill.
The Moon can perhaps have some uses in the future, as in Helium 3 mining. Nemo has no use other than philosophical and perhaps artistic reflection as to whether anything that is empty and lifeless can be beautiful.
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Point Nemo is lifeless. So is the Moon. There is nothing to kill.
The Moon can perhaps have some uses in the future, as in Helium 3 mining. Nemo has no use other than philosophical and perhaps artistic reflection as to whether anything that is empty and lifeless can be beautiful.
??? There is a ocean surrounding the place HWB! Its a part of our ecosystem.
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??? There is a ocean surrounding the place HWB! Its a part of our ecosystem.
Precisely.
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??? There is a ocean surrounding the place HWB! Its a part of our ecosystem.
No it is not, because the eco system by passes it.
Point Nemo is relatively lifeless; its location within the South Pacific Gyre blocks nutrients from reaching the area, and being so far from land it gets little nutrient run-off from coastal waters.[18]
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No it is not, because the eco system by passes it.
Point Nemo is relatively lifeless; its location within the South Pacific Gyre blocks nutrients from reaching the area, and being so far from land it gets little nutrient run-off from coastal waters.[18]
so, part of our Eco system then
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Using paper isn't that bad and how about the cost of when we have to keep on changing broken lavatory seats, broken by easterners standing on them, tending to continue their propensity of wanting to continue crapping in the same way they do all over place in the fields etc, in the countries they come from, where there's very little in the way of having something to sit on.
Regards ippy
You do know some unusual people, ippy ???. They come from the East? East Anglia, Essex, East End?
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You do know some unusual people, ippy ???. They come from the East? East Anglia, Essex, East End?
Like it Rhi, you're right.
Regards ippy
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No it is not, because the eco system by passes it.
Point Nemo is relatively lifeless; its location within the South Pacific Gyre blocks nutrients from reaching the area, and being so far from land it gets little nutrient run-off from coastal waters.[18]
What do you mean ecosystem bypasses it? There is no such thing.
There cannot be anything 'isolated' in the centre of the ocean. Ocean currents move everywhere, marine life is everywhere, bacteria and basic plant life are everywhere. Space junk dropping into the ocean can ruin marine life. Microplastics are now a part of the food chain around the world.
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..... and here's another fine mess we are getting into ..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-43036302