Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SusanDoris on July 14, 2017, 04:23:48 PM

Title: Acid attacks in London
Post by: SusanDoris on July 14, 2017, 04:23:48 PM
What possible circumstances could have made two teenage boys buy a corrosive liquid in order to throw it at people? If they were so desperate to steal mopeds, they could have found some other way.
I doubt if such a mind set could ever be changed to become anywhere near normal.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: floo on July 14, 2017, 04:25:41 PM
It is shocking and then some. Sadly acid attacks appear to be coming more common these days! :o
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Rhiannon on July 14, 2017, 04:27:11 PM
I'd nearly started a thread on this. Using acid in robberies is becoming increasingly common. There are various reasons - the penalties for carrying acid are less than for knives, acid is harder to trace and readily available, and it can be effective from a certain distance.

I doubt very much whether the impact on the victim is something that they even vaguely consider. This is about a quick method of getting want they want.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: floo on July 14, 2017, 04:30:43 PM
As well as the custodial sentences they will undoubtedly get, it would serve them right if a drop of acid was placed on the backs of each of their hands. This would give them a miniscule indication of the sort of suffering their victims were having to endure.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: SusanDoris on July 14, 2017, 04:38:36 PM
As well as the custodial sentences they will undoubtedly get, it would serve them right if a drop of acid was placed on the backs of each of their hands. This would give them a miniscule indication of the sort of suffering their victims were having to endure.
True, but in this day and age, they would immediately run for lawyers, apply for legal aid, and sue for compensation, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: floo on July 14, 2017, 04:46:08 PM
True, but in this day and age, they would immediately run for lawyers, apply for legal aid, and sue for compensation, I'm afraid.

True.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Rhiannon on July 14, 2017, 04:46:57 PM
I don't think fighting barbarism with barbarism helps.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: wigginhall on July 14, 2017, 04:48:17 PM
Torture?   Not really. 
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: SusanDoris on July 14, 2017, 05:39:34 PM
Torture?   Not really.
No, of course not, because that puts authority 100% in the wrong and I would object to it in the same way as I have always supported the ban oncapital punishment.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Harrowby Hall on July 14, 2017, 05:54:30 PM
We know little about these boys and court restrictions may mean that we end up knowing little about them. From what I have heard on BBC radio news bulletins, they would appear to be members of a street gang - possible being expected to do some task to demonstrate their loyalty?

I don't have any real information about street gangs, but a number of demographic factors spring to mind.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Free Willy on July 14, 2017, 06:00:47 PM
The trouble is prisons have just become microcosms of what many perpetrators are after a sensation adrenalin rich seething human sea.

They should be made to have breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea with cucumber sandwiches and dinner each prefaced by a thoughtful reading. They should grow roses and have classic FM played to them. Almost constantly.

The tariff should be for inflicting life changing disfigurement 10 years
                                               life changing physical incapacity 20 years
                                               life changing mental incapacity 30 years
                                               Murder 40-50 years
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Shaker on July 14, 2017, 06:06:39 PM
As well as the custodial sentences they will undoubtedly get, it would serve them right if a drop of acid was placed on the backs of each of their hands. This would give them a miniscule indication of the sort of suffering their victims were having to endure.
It might well serve them right - they clearly lack a functioning sense of empathy/theory of mind, so a taste of "This is why it's wrong; it's not nice, is it? So therefore it's not nice to others" might break through.

On the other hand I'm not sure how the legal and state-sanctioned administrator of that drop of acid would differ from the owner of the hand. In fact the former may be worse - in the sense of more morally culpable - than the latter. Somebody with little or no empathy who throws acid at someone is a criminal, certainly affectively deficient and in at least some cases mentally ill; someone to whom none of those qualities apply who is allowed to drop acid on someone because the law allows for it has no excuse to hide behind.

Rhiannon said that fighting barbarism with barbarism achieves nothing. Firefighters fight fire with water and foam, not with fire. That would be a stupendously silly thing for a firefighter to do.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: floo on July 14, 2017, 06:24:05 PM
It might well serve them right - they clearly lack a functioning sense of empathy/theory of mind, so a taste of "This is why it's wrong; it's not nice, is it? So therefore it's not nice to others" might break through.

On the other hand I'm not sure how the legal and state-sanctioned administrator of that drop of acid would differ from the owner of the hand. In fact the former may be worse - in the sense of more morally culpable - than the latter. Somebody with little or no empathy who throws acid at someone is a criminal, certainly affectively deficient and in at least some cases mentally ill; someone to whom none of those qualities apply who is allowed to drop acid on someone because the law allows for it has no excuse to hide behind.

Rhiannon said that fighting barbarism with barbarism achieves nothing. Firefighters fight fire with water and foam, not with fire. That would be a stupendously silly thing for a firefighter to do.

I wasn't suggesting anyone should actually do that!
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 14, 2017, 06:27:04 PM
I wasn't suggesting anyone should actually do that!
then don't suggest it
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: SusanDoris on July 14, 2017, 06:28:13 PM
I wasn't suggesting anyone should actually do that!
Understood.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 14, 2017, 06:32:55 PM
Understood.
so suggesting something isn't suggesting something?
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 14, 2017, 06:38:01 PM
The trouble is prisons have just become microcosms of what many perpetrators are after a sensation adrenalin rich seething human sea.

They should be made to have breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea with cucumber sandwiches and dinner each prefaced by a thoughtful reading. They should grow roses and have classic FM played to them. Almost constantly.

The tariff should be for inflicting life changing disfigurement 10 years
                                               life changing physical incapacity 20 years
                                               life changing mental incapacity 30 years
                                               Murder 40-50 years
When you apply for membership of the fascist Stalinist Tory party, are you using the above as your application? 
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: floo on July 14, 2017, 06:41:21 PM
then don't suggest it

I said it would serve them right, which it would, but I didn't suggest anyone should actually do it, as of course it would be wrong.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 14, 2017, 06:55:11 PM
I said it would serve them right, which it would, but I didn't suggest anyone should actually do it, as of course it would be wrong.
Except by suggesting it! If it's wrong don't mention it
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Free Willy on July 14, 2017, 07:07:49 PM
When you apply for membership of the fascist Stalinist Tory party, are you using the above as your application?
What's fascist, Stalinist, or Tory about a balance of penalty(I do hate the word punishment it smacks of SM), deterence and civilisation?

In fact I was thinking of it for membership of the Mimsy Wimsy Nicey, self righty, shitey Party.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 14, 2017, 07:11:54 PM
What's fascist, Stalinist, or Tory about a balance of penalty(I do hate the word punishment it smacks of SM), deterence and civilisation?

In fact I was thinking of it for membership of the Mimsy Wimsy Nicey, self righty, shitey Party.
that's nice, Tory boy.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Free Willy on July 14, 2017, 07:18:52 PM
that's nice, Tory boy.
oooh.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Owlswing on July 14, 2017, 08:58:43 PM
The trouble is prisons have just become microcosms of what many perpetrators are after a sensation adrenalin rich seething human sea.

They should be made to have breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea with cucumber sandwiches and dinner each prefaced by a thoughtful reading. They should grow roses and have classic FM played to them. Almost constantly.

The tariff should be for inflicting life changing disfigurement 10 years
                                               life changing physical incapacity 20 years
                                               life changing mental incapacity 30 years
                                               Murder 40-50 years

I hardly think that the subject of this thread is a proper one for your twisted warped and unpleasant sense of humour!
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Free Willy on July 14, 2017, 10:55:08 PM
I hardly think that the subject of this thread is a proper one for your twisted warped and unpleasant sense of humour!
No humour although my suggestion has been met with the fact that there is a generation of folk that cannot even begin to embark pn what to do about crimes without mistaking perpetrator for victim.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 14, 2017, 11:05:56 PM
No humour although my suggestion has been met with the fact that there is a generation of folk that cannot even begin to embark pn what to do about crimes without mistaking perpetrator for victim.
said Tory boy
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Owlswing on July 15, 2017, 04:51:27 AM

No humour although my suggestion has been met with the fact that there is a generation of folk that cannot even begin to embark pn what to do about crimes without mistaking perpetrator for victim.


I'm glad that you recognise that you are not funny.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: SusanDoris on July 15, 2017, 07:16:00 AM
Except by suggesting it! If it's wrong don't mention it
Why not? It is part of the discussion.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Sassy on July 15, 2017, 02:14:59 PM
It is unfortunately, likely to get worse. You cannot change what is bad in mankind, but we have to accept where we drive people because of poverty into a corner they will act in the worse possible manner.

The obvious answer is they steal the bikes for money. The bad side is the threatening and harming of others to steal/rob them of their property.

Maiming someone is a serious issue and they cannot take this lightly. Examples have to be made of people who do these things.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: BeRational on July 15, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
I would suggest that they have the same substance sprayed in their faces.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Sassy on July 15, 2017, 02:33:46 PM
I would suggest that they have the same substance sprayed in their faces.

Then everyone keeps paying for their treatment for life and having them cared for?

Prison is better.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: BeRational on July 15, 2017, 02:35:21 PM
Then everyone keeps paying for their treatment for life and having them cared for?

Prison is better.

Don't treat them.
Title: Re: Acid attacks in London
Post by: Nearly Sane on July 25, 2017, 04:18:56 PM
Scottish case today with a 15 year sentence. Also worth noting that two cases in 1991 in Scotland had 20 year sentences.

http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/8/1817/HMA-v-William-Burns