Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: john on August 10, 2017, 11:08:21 AM
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The latest case show once again that the perpetrators are almost exclusively Asian.
What does that say about the Asian community in general, that a small percentage of society group, is largely responsible for nearly all the offending in this one area?
What do we need to do about it?
PS I tried to put other words in here to define the exact offense I refer to but I couldn't. I presume there is some sort of automatic ban on three letter words beginning with s and ending in x.
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"Largely"?
"Nearly all"?
You sure?
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Is it true that only one community is responsible for this type of offence? You'd need to provide statistics for that. When I was growing up it was white men grooming and raping young girls , it was part of the 'boy racer' sub culture and I very much doubt it's gone away.
I think what we are seeing here is an organisational aspect where people with a vaguely shared culture are sticking together. And we know that in previous cases the tendency of the authorities to want to avoid accusations of racism along with bias against white working class girls contributed to the offenders getting away with it for so long. They may not have if they were white, which says a lot about the authorities.
It also says something about the way some men from a certain culture view women and girls, especially white women and girls, but plenty of men from other cultures share their views, including white men. It tells us nothing about Asian or Muslim men in general.
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Coming back on topic, it should be said that this isn't entirely about paedophilia either.
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Coming back on topic, it should be said that this isn't entirely about paedophilia either.
Surely it's actually very little to do with paedophilia? In the main these are cases involving post pubesecent victims.
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All sexual abuse is evil, whoever perpetrates it.
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Is it true that only one community is responsible for this type of offence? You'd need to provide statistics for that. When I was growing up it was white men grooming and raping young girls , it was part of the 'boy racer' sub culture and I very much doubt it's gone away.
I think what we are seeing here is an organisational aspect where people with a vaguely shared culture are sticking together. And we know that in previous cases the tendency of the authorities to want to avoid accusations of racism along with bias against white working class girls contributed to the offenders getting away with it for so long. They may not have if they were white, which says a lot about the authorities.
It also says something about the way some men from a certain culture view women and girls, especially white women and girls, but plenty of men from other cultures share their views, including white men. It tells us nothing about Asian or Muslim men in general.
Very sensible post Rhiannon.
You said:- 'When I was growing up it was white men grooming and raping young girls , it was part of the 'boy racer' sub culture and I very much doubt it's gone away.'
Same when I was young, we'd hear about it in media occasionally. It didn't receive the publicity it does now. Also another ethnic group who were not white or 'Asian' & Maltese! It is the same now with the addition of Russians who are extremely organised about it.
None of these have gone away but depends on the area who is doing it predominantly.
Surely it's actually very little to do with paedophilia? In the main these are cases involving post pubesecent victims.
Agreed it isn't paedophilia.
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Skaker & Riannon
Please read the following and follow the provided links as a starter;
I believe the facts speak for themselves;
Most of today’s papers show pictures with the names of the 18 people convicted in this latest case in Newcastle. The Times describes them as mostly Pakistani or Bangladeshi with 1 Iraqi, 1 Iranian and 1 Turk. Exceptionally only one white person was convicted, a woman! Carolann Gallon.
One of the defendants in the case was reported as saying to one white woman. “white women are good for only one thing – for people like me to F*** and use as trash”.
Similar cases have been reported in; Bradford, Blackburn, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham. In the Birmingham Evening Mail, Police reports, showed that 75% of the people involved in “Grooming offences” were Asian and 80% of the victims were white. http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/west-midlands-police-report-reveals-7948902
In the Rochdale case the gangleader Shabir Ahmed said- “It’s the white communities fault for not looking after their girls”. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/shabir-ahmed-rochdale-sex-gang-ringleader-blamed-white-community/
The Rochdale case of course was recently the subject of a widely reported documentary and a play.
Iman Karmani a Muslim leader and psychiatrist thinks that a disproportionate number of Asian men are involved in child groomin offences.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html
A little bit of research will show up much more on the subject or you could try to access the recent TV documentary dealing with this subject in relation to the Rochdale case, I think it was called THREE GIRLS.
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Robinson
You are not wrong.
But the numbers of people involved here is much greater.
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See also
MP Sarah Champion says it is not "racist" to discuss this issue.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40886658
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Robinson
You are not wrong.
But the numbers of people involved here is much greater.
I see that, in the past you'd hear of a couple of men or maybe three (sometimes brothers) running that sort of thing, they had people running around working for them including women. It didn't get the same amount of publicity as it does now, no-one really wanted to hear about it it was so unpleasant. I remember when I was 15 mid 1970s, a case in a little dingy nonentity of a town just few miles from where I lived, you'd never have guessed. It was in the local paper. Taxi firms involved, drug dealing.
Now it appears there are entire gangs of men.
They must target young boys too. Boys are always more reluctant to come forward.
See also
MP Sarah Champion says it is not "racist" to discuss this issue.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-40886658
It's not racist to face facts and speak about it. A very senior police officer was instrumental in bringing lots of "Asian' men to justice up North, an asian himself, he wasn't afraid to speak out. As long as no-one thinks 'they're all the same' because of course no two people are alike. Jamaicans, Maltese have had to go through that. The indigenous population carry on doing it virtually unseen!
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It's not racist to discuss this issue. However, it is racist to largely blame only one group for this type of offence without Home Office figures to back up the accusation.
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Yes it is.
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Rhiannon
You clearly did not bother to read the links I provided....
Let me give you just 1 fact from The Birmingham Mail.
In the case of Birmingham 75% of all grooming offences are committed by Asians. FACT. Now I do not know what percentage of people in B,ham are Asian but it ain't anywhere even near 75%. FACT.
If you were to write to your MP and ask him what the Home Office statistics were for Asians being involved in grooming in B;ham.... After some research he would say 75%....Guess where he gets the figures from? Home Office statistics come from police and court reports.
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It's not racist to discuss this issue. However, it is racist to largely blame only one group for this type of offence without Home Office figures to back up the accusation.
Of course it's not racist to discuss the issue, and it's not about blaming only one group for such activities. I think the racism challenge comes in two forms.
1) It might be considered racist to focus on these organised groups, because they are predominately from certain communities. I don't think it is racist to do so, as long as any group of people from any background are treated in the same manner.
2) There is a racist element at work in the activities of these organised groups. I would suggest that this does seem to be so, and we need to find out the reasons why.
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Rhiannon
You clearly did not bother to read the links I provided....
Let me give you just 1 fact from The Birmingham Mail.
In the case of Birmingham 75% of all grooming offences are committed by Asians. FACT. Now I do not know what percentage of people in B,ham are Asian but it ain't anywhere even near 75%. FACT.
If you were to write to your MP and ask him what the Home Office statistics were for Asians being involved in grooming in B;ham.... After some research he would say 75%....Guess where he gets the figures from? Home Office statistics come from police and court reports.
My MP isn't likely to want to respond to questions about Birmingham seeing as she doesn't represent that area. What are the figures for the country as a whole?
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Of course it's not racist to discuss the issue, and it's not about blaming only one group for such activities. I think the racism challenge comes in two forms.
1) It might be considered racist to focus on these organised groups, because they are predominately from certain communities. I don't think it is racist to do so, as long as any group of people from any background are treated in the same manner.
2) There is a racist element at work in the activities of these organised groups. I would suggest that this does seem to be so, and we need to find out the reasons why.
The thing about white working class girls being regarded as 'trash' goes across the board - the authorities - social workers and council officials, both mostly white from what I've seen - also regarded the victims as such. Is that racist too?
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The thing about white working class girls being regarded as 'trash' goes across the board - the authorities - social workers and council officials, both mostly white from what I've seen - also regarded the victims as such. Is that racist too?
If you really think that the authorities(social workers and council officials) who are mostly white regard white working class girls as 'trash' then not only would they be racist but practising class discrimination as well, and you should inform the police. However, apart from odd individuals who might well show such tendencies, I know of no evidence that illustrates your point that such authorities as you have mentioned actually do regard white working class girls as trash.
On the other hand there is at least some evidence that there is an underlying racism amongst the groups that have been caught by the police.
E.G. Mohammed Shafiq from the Ramadhan Foundation said:
"Amongst these criminals there is a mindset that they think that white girls are worthless,"
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Girls as young as 11 were regarded as making 'lifestyle choices'. Girls were arrested by police for drunken behaviour in the flats in which they were being abused but the men weren't. Yes, white people in authority regard white vulnerable girls as trash and it was obvious that they did so.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/10/victims-child-abuse-gangs-race-religion
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Girls as young as 11 were regarded as making 'lifestyle choices'. Girls were arrested by police for drunken behaviour in the flats in which they were being abused but the men weren't. Yes, white people in authority regard white vulnerable girls as trash and it was obvious that they did so.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/10/victims-child-abuse-gangs-race-religion
Which has nothing to do with the your idea that social workers and council officials regard white working class girls as 'trash'. Indeed, most council officials, be they male or female, are from the working class, at least they are in my area. So, I'm not sure what point you are making here.
As far as the police are concerned, they should have acted much sooner against these 'groups'. I have no problem at all with that.
As John has already said, Imam Alyas Karmani, a Muslim leader, psychologist and youth worker thinks that a disproportionate nunber of Asian men(although, of course, still only a small percentage of the Muslim community) are involved in grooming offences and that the reasons are to do with the attitudes of the different cultures, and the attitudes towards white girls. In particular he makes the point that this small percentage see white girls as 'less valuable than girls from their own community'. Others have also spoken out, including Ann Cryer, then labour MP in 2003.
So, I see no reason to change my statement that there seems to be a racist element in the activities of these organised groups and we need to discuss this openly, find the reasons why and hopefully combat it.
The fact that one may point to racist elements in any other area is no excuse not to deal with this. I am fully in favour of coming down against grooming of any kind, whether it be by Asians against predominately vulnerable white girls or by white men travelling to Asian countries purely for sexual gratification. The colour doesn't matter to me. The racism and abuse does.
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Did you bother reading to the end of the article in the Independent? The conclusion is that this is predominantly about opportunity - the perpetrators are misogynistic against women/girls and target those that are available - which tends to be white vulnerable girls who are out in the evenings, unlike their Asian counterparts. And in the cases apart from Newcastle the men involved some from a very specific area - Pakinstani Kashmir.
It makes me think of the scandal of priests who abuse. These men aren't taught about sex, they are taught that women are inferior, they have to marry conservative girls from rural Pakistan yet they live in a sexualised culture that they don't understand. And they are exposed to a lot of porn. Education seems to be essential in countering this.
And if you don't think that the authorities believing that young white girls having sex with men three or four times their age is a 'lifestyle choice' is indicative of the lack of worth that these girls are valued with then words fail me. Do you think that the same opinion would have been voiced had these girls been from middle class families? And do you not think that people can be failed by their own class?
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Rhianon
One of the problems that dogged these investigations initially is that "the authorities" were so scared of being thought racist that the matter was swept under the carpet.
A trap you seem to have fallen into Eh!
After all who cares about a few poor white girls!!!
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Not that you personally don't care but that these girls are uncared for by society in general. They're expendable. That seems to have been the prevailing attitude. They're not all white actually, all depends on the demographic, but that's by the bye, they have things in common. The police have historically been quite useless in such matters - better now than ever, they've had a few wake up calls - always having 'greater priorities'.
"...the authorities believing that young white girls having sex with men three or four times their age is a 'lifestyle choice'... " ! Agree,quite disgusting. Almost unbelievable but illustrative of the lack of care.
Social workers now are no longer the stereotypical white middle class ladies of years gone by (like my parents' generation), nor the equally archetypal women wearing primary colours and Doc Martens of the 1980s, there are a great many black social workers. It's a popular career option for black women though there's a shortage of black male social workers unfortunately.
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Rhianon
One of the problems that dogged these investigations initially is that "the authorities" were so scared of being thought racist that the matter was swept under the carpet.
A trap you seem to have fallen into Eh!
After all who cares about a few poor white girls!!!
I think that's a complete misrepresentation of Rhiannon"s posts, and one that is deliberately insulting. I think you owe her an apology.
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Rhianon
One of the problems that dogged these investigations initially is that "the authorities" were so scared of being thought racist that the matter was swept under the carpet.
A trap you seem to have fallen into Eh!
After all who cares about a few poor white girls!!!
I could reply to you but seeing as your capacity to read anything that I've said borders on the completely illiterate it'd clearly be a waste of my time.
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I don't think I owe an apology at all, if you watch the documentaries and read the reports excuses for not taking action earlier include statements exactly like the ones Rhiannon is rehashing; the girls were drunk, they came from bad homes, had been previously ill treated in their own homes, they had made bad lifestyle choices, they might be intellectually or temperamentally unable to show up well in court, etc.
When the fact of the matter is, no matter what sort of girls were involved, they were (in the main) legally too young to consent to the way they were treated.
Yes Rhiannon it is very clear that many of the people involved were incompetent and even maybe were prejudiced against the type of girls involved, as you suggest.
I think though the main reason for early inaction as many others say in the reports I highlight, is the fear of being thought racist..... Many excuses for avoiding criticism like this were advanced including ones like those in my opening paragraph.
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Hmm, I wonder who mentioned in their first post on this thread that the authorities didn't act out of a fear of racism?
Oh yes, I did.
To suggest that I don't care about the victims because they are white is misrepresentation (to be polite). I don't expect an apology from you and nor do I want one. Stay with your self-righteous ignorance, it clearly makes you happy. I'll stick to caring about the opinions of people that I respect.
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I don't think I owe an apology at all, if you watch the documentaries and read the reports excuses for not taking action earlier include statements exactly like the ones Rhiannon is rehashing; the girls were drunk, they came from bad homes, had been previously ill treated in their own homes, they had made bad lifestyle choices, they might be intellectually or temperamentally unable to show up well in court, etc.
When the fact of the matter is, no matter what sort of girls were involved, they were (in the main) legally too young to consent to the way they were treated.
Yes Rhiannon it is very clear that many of the people involved were incompetent and even maybe were prejudiced against the type of girls involved, as you suggest.
I think though the main reason for early inaction as many others say in the reports I highlight, is the fear of being thought racist..... Many excuses for avoiding criticism like this were advanced including ones like those in my opening paragraph.
So you think accusing someone of not caring for the victims whenever their posts have said no such thing is OK? Why is lying in that way OK with you?
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I am disappointed that no one here seems interested in discussing my original question, what can we should we do about this?
I also note that according to today's TIMES similar enquiries are in hand in at least 20 other cities throughout the UK. So beware the problem already exists in a city near you.
No Rhianon the problem is not confined to B,ham, nor is it down to middle class social workers.
Moderator: content removed.
So that's me done.
I shall post here no more.
This dwindling message board has lost another poster.
Bye Yaal.
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I am sure we will manage without you John, this forum has got much more lively in recent weeks. :)
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Hi Rhi,
Did you bother reading to the end of the article in the Independent? The conclusion is that this is predominantly about opportunity - the perpetrators are misogynistic against women/girls and target those that are available - which tends to be white vulnerable girls who are out in the evenings, unlike their Asian counterparts.
Yes, I read to the end of the article in the Independent, Rhi. I assume you mean the one that John referred to. There were various voices in that article which emphasised different interpretations for the same behaviour, to some extent overlapping, and, more importantly gave practical ideas on how it could be tackled. I also read the article that you kindly provided from the Guardian (in post 19), again to the end. I thought the penultimate paragraph made a lot of sense, when it said:
But equally, cultural sensitivity must not be used as a screen for taking culture off the table altogether. It’s right that people who speak out on this do so with extreme caution, given how easy it is for things to be taken out of context to fuel racial hatred. But we should also be attuned to the fact that cultural sensitivity may make us prone to ignore truths we find uncomfortable.
And in the cases apart from Newcastle the men involved some from a very specific area - Pakinstani Kashmir.
Not quite true. In Oxford, for instance, two of the seven men were of East African heritage.
It makes me think of the scandal of priests who abuse. These men aren't taught about sex, they are taught that women are inferior, they have to marry conservative girls from rural Pakistan yet they live in a sexualised culture that they don't understand. And they are exposed to a lot of porn. Education seems to be essential in countering this.
I agree wholeheartedly.
And if you don't think that the authorities believing that young white girls having sex with men three or four times their age is a 'lifestyle choice' is indicative of the lack of worth that these girls are valued with then words fail me.
Do I think that the council workers(only three according to the Guardian article) who voiced the opinion that girls of 11 were making lifetime choices, were right? Absolutely not.
Yes, it was certain council employees who suggested that they were making lifestyle choices, but you seem to be quite happy to label them vaguely as 'the authorities', just as you quite unjustly in my opinion suggested the idea that white working class girls are regarded as 'trash'across the board, selecting out social workers and council officials for special mention. I think that is most unfair to the vast majority of council officials and social workers across the country. You obviously don't.
Do you think that the same opinion would have been voiced had these girls been from middle class families?
I have no idea if these three people(or anyone who thinks like them) would hold similar opinions if the girls were middle class.
And do you not think that people can be failed by their own class?
Of course. However people of a similar background would tend to have greater empathy and understanding of each other.
As I have already said, I don't think it is racist to focus on and challenge this abhorrent behaviour and it is also my opinion that there is a racist element at work in these organised groups. I go along with the thoughts of Lord Macdonald in an interview on Radio 4's 'Today'.
By the way, I watched Newsnight, last night, which had a discussion on this subject between four Muslims. I thought it was quite interesting and informative, as each of the people had differing views and brought their own thoughts and ideas to bear upon the subject. On the whole I thought that it was quite constructive.
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We've seen these same kinds of cases many times over the last decade or so but don't seem to have made any progress on the causes behind this gang behaviour or what to do about it?
Can't see that it is racist to acknowledge and deal with these attitudes, behaviour and offences as associated with certain (Muslim, Pakistani, Asian...) communities ... although given the time passed without progress on the causes I would be very surprised if it as not already spread to other communities sharing similar attitudes or conditions.
Am reluctant to say the behaviour and offences are intentionally racist against white girls/women, though there may be underlying racist attitudes. I expect the gangs would exploit any vulnerable women in similar ways, but probably just go for those they can victimise with least trouble - also we don't know (but may guess) the extent to which the communities own women are abused.
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Very good article in today's Sun
That is a contradiction in terms.
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We've seen these same kinds of cases many times over the last decade or so but don't seem to have made any progress on the causes behind this gang behaviour or what to do about it?
Can't see that it is racist to acknowledge and deal with these attitudes, behaviour and offences as associated with certain (Muslim, Pakistani, Asian...) communities ... although given the time passed without progress on the causes I would be very surprised if it as not already spread to other communities sharing similar attitudes or conditions.
Am reluctant to say the behaviour and offences are intentionally racist against white girls/women, though there may be underlying racist attitudes. I expect the gangs would exploit any vulnerable women in similar ways, but probably just go for those they can victimise with least trouble - also we don't know (but may guess) the extent to which the communities own women are abused.
Agree with this very much. Even in the statistics for Birmingham we don't know how many of the grooming offences were committed against girls from their own communities. They clearly do regard white gurks as trash but that doesn't mean they regard Asian girls as much better.
It's not racist to consider why there are groups of men from certain communities carrying out these offences, it's important that it is acknowledged. Equally it has to be done without demonising them - there alreadyban attitude of 'all Muslims are paedos' out there and this is playing into the hands of extremists - we now have an anti Islamic candidate for the UKIP leadership.
I thibk change has to come from within the community and it's about education and openness.
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I read the informative Independent article about the Imam's sex education talks. I also watched the Newsnight episode that Enki referred to - thanks for that - it was very informative.
I don't know much about the openess of conversations about sex in the Pakistani community. From those people in that community that i have come across, the educated middle class seem to talk about it - but that does not mean that educated middle-class people can't be predators - given the recent conviction of teachers for sex offences against young people. But they would be predators in a different way. There would not be the crudeness of gang rape and passing girls around like meat and openly stating the girls are not worthy of respect.
I know of an Imam in London that runs sex education talks and marriage counselling - no idea what the take up is for the services he offers.
I agree that a lot of the issue is around cultural stereotypes of what type of girls/ women should be respected - in this case the ones that aren't easily accessible. The other issue is that if the victims won't talk and won't report the abuse, either because they are scared or have low self-esteem or they think the criminal really does love them because that is all they know of love, it takes considerable skills and resources for social workers and police to coax them to change their minds.
I can say the Sri Lankan Muslim community that I have experienced are not as uptight about talking about sex as certain parts of the Pakistani community appear to be. They appear to be far less crude and can talk to women - of course what they will say in front of me may be different from what they will say to their male friends.
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That is a contradiction in terms.
Snob :D. I read the SUn, my sister read the Metro, we swapped over & then the food arrived.
Next time I'll go to Cafe Nero or Costa and report back with something more upmarket.
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The latest case show once again that the perpetrators are almost exclusively Asian.
What does that say about the Asian community in general, that a small percentage of society group, is largely responsible for nearly all the offending in this one area?
What do we need to do about it?
PS I tried to put other words in here to define the exact offense I refer to but I couldn't. I presume there is some sort of automatic ban on three letter words beginning with s and ending in x.
You can say "secks". I know that because I tried to say "secksy" the other day and couldn't post the proper spelling.
Going back to your question i have no idea what we need or can do about it except be vigilant & aware of the signs which abused youngsters will undoubtedly display. Parents & teachers are the ones on the spot to notice anything suspicous. Plus teaching young girls about what isn't appropriate & trying to boost their self esteem.
Sorry not very helpful, can't think of more right now.
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Snob :D. I read the SUn, my sister read the Metro, we swapped over & then the food arrived.
Next time I'll go to Cafe Nero or Costa and report back with something more upmarket.
Yeah, Being a snob is thinking that the lies the Sun has pushed and how it gas indulged in casual racism and sexism is unacceptable.
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Lighten up NS. I was being lighthearted towards SteveH & no doubt he will take my remark that way, I'm not a regular Sun reader, picked it up in a cafe is all - which I said. Honestly ::).Any excuse for a dig.
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Lighten up NS. I was being lighthearted towards SteveH & no doubt he will take my remark that way, I'm not a regular Sun reader, picked it up in a cafe is all - which I said. Honestly ::).Any excuse for a dig.
Yeah, the Sun's position on Hillsborough was lighthearted.
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Come on, the Sun reported the news that Jeremy Corbyn was responsible for the Manchester bombing. Warra larf.
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I apologise for even mentioning the Sun, for calling steveH a snob even though I was joking, I will amend my post where the offending word was first used. Consider me told off So please can we stop it now. Thanks.
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Speaking of which...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/16/sarah-champion-complaint-sun-article-british-pakistani-men
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Well if the Sun has dine some 'adapting', that would be a huge shock.
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She's quit the Labour front bench.
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She's quit the Labour front bench.
So does that mean The Sun were truthful here and she wasn't?
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It was an 'unfortunate choice of words' on her part apparently. So no clue.
I'd say that she was toast when shr agreed to write the article.
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It was an 'unfortunate choice of words' on her part apparently. So no clue.
I'd say that she was toast when shr agreed to write the article.
Which reads that she tried to lie her way out of it but the Sun had enough detail to show she was wrong. Very sad because she seems dedicated to dealing with the issue.
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I dunno. I think her mistake was allowing herself to be associated with the Sun in the first place; her article appears to give weight to Kavanagh's piece about the 'Muslim problem'.
In terms of alteration, she said that the headline and the opening paragraph weren't hers, so we can assume that the rest is. No idea what she was thinking.
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I think the fuss that arises on matters of wording usually ends up obscuring the actual issues and factors.