Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on August 12, 2017, 08:53:16 PM

Title: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 12, 2017, 08:53:16 PM

Will wait for more information but chilling.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40912509
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 12, 2017, 09:28:58 PM
Indeed.

This has never left the States but clearly they see the kinds of people that Trump enjoys surrounding himself with as a signal that they are safe in the open.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 13, 2017, 08:17:48 AM
Will wait for more information but chilling.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40912509

What a bunch of evil creeps. Sadly we have some of those ghastly people in this country too. :o
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Anchorman on August 13, 2017, 09:06:58 AM
Trump's failure to single out the fascists, and the KKK elements of the 'alt right' for condemnation was simply a disgrace - yes, we know his 'vote base' derives from this shower to a great extent; however failure to condemn it outright is the act of a coward. Even several Senators from his own Republican party are disgusted by his inane stupidity on this matter.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Robbie on August 13, 2017, 09:10:32 AM
YOu said it Anchorman!
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 13, 2017, 09:15:30 AM
Trump's failure to single out the fascists, and the KKK elements of the 'alt right' for condemnation was simply a disgrace - yes, we know his 'vote base' derives from this shower to a great extent; however failure to condemn it outright is the act of a coward. Even several Senators from his own Republican party are disgusted by his inane stupidity on this matter.

Trump is a disgrace to the office of President the USA. >:( >:(
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 13, 2017, 09:34:46 AM
His own party are speaking out against him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40915569
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 13, 2017, 10:11:54 AM
His own party are speaking out against him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40915569

The sooner the US gets rid of that dangerous idiot the better.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 02:29:25 AM
Trump's failure to single out the fascists, and the KKK elements of the 'alt right' for condemnation was simply a disgrace - yes, we know his 'vote base' derives from this shower to a great extent; however failure to condemn it outright is the act of a coward. Even several Senators from his own Republican party are disgusted by his inane stupidity on this matter.
I think we have to be careful in saying that Hus vote base is 'to a great extent' derived from the KKK and similar. There's 63m voters behind him and it seems to me that's indulging in a simplistic generalisation.

Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 14, 2017, 08:38:08 AM
I think we have to be careful in saying that Hus vote base is 'to a great extent' derived from the KKK and similar. There's 63m voters behind him and it seems to me that's indulging in a simplistic generalisation.

I am of the opinion that many of the people who voted for Trump are right wing extremists, who else would be crazy enough to vote for that man?
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 14, 2017, 08:39:20 AM
I am of the opinion that many of the people who voted for Trump are right wing extremists, who else would be crazy enough to vote for that man?

The desperate?
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 14, 2017, 08:43:53 AM
The desperate?

Desperate for what?
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 14, 2017, 08:47:56 AM
Desperate for what?

Jobs. An escape from drug culture. Enough money to put food on the table. A sense of having a future. A sense of having a voice.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Anchorman on August 14, 2017, 08:51:09 AM
Apologies, NS - I meant that much of Trump's support came from the 'alt right'. Admittedly the neo-nazis and KKK would class themselves (those of them ho can read, anyway) as belonging to this 'movement', which makes the 'tea party' look like a frozen crispy pancake.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 14, 2017, 08:53:30 AM
Jobs. An escape from drug culture. Enough money to put food on the table. A sense of having a future. A sense of having a voice.

Really?
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 14, 2017, 08:53:44 AM
I think was does seem likely is that Trump has emboldened the movement.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 14, 2017, 08:55:44 AM
Really?

Why is that such a strange concept to you? So much of what he promised - the wall, a cap on migration, American jobs for American people - was aimed squarely at those who felt that the old order was failing them.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 14, 2017, 08:58:46 AM
Why is that such a strange concept to you? So much of what he promised - the wall, a cap on migration, American jobs for American people - was aimed squarely at those who felt that the old order was failing them.

And was getting rid of Obama healthcare, meant to benefit the poor?
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 14, 2017, 09:11:23 AM
And was getting rid of Obama healthcare, meant to benefit the poor?

Very little he will do will benefit the poor - you only have to see who he favours now he's in power. But he knew and still knows exactly how to play to his audience.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 14, 2017, 09:17:27 AM
Very little he will do will benefit the poor - you only have to see who he favours now he's in power. But he knew and still knows exactly how to play to his audience.

Trump favours the rich and his own interests.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 14, 2017, 09:20:57 AM
Trump favours the rich and his own interests.

And hoovers up the votes of the poor and the less well educated.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 09:21:31 AM
I am of the opinion that many of the people who voted for Trump are right wing extremists, who else would be crazy enough to vote for that man?
Ah the argument by personal incredulity an unusual context.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 09:36:01 AM
And was getting rid of Obama healthcare, meant to benefit the poor?
There are many who would argue and believe that Obamacare is pushing up the costs of medicine to the extent that the insurance companies backing it are unwilling to participate which pushes up costs further leading to a rationing of medicine. The policy of Ibamacare is sold to many of the poor voters as something that will go bust leaving them with no health care. That I think people are wrong to believe it doesn't mean that those voting Trump are mainly or even in a large part what would normally be described as right wing extremists.


For millions of people in the U.S., there is the experience that the good years in the economy passed them by, and the bad tears hit almost solely on them. In a culture where aspiration is central to the mythos, Trump can and has plated the outsider, someone to challenge the beltway politics of fixing and dubious deals.

It's essentially a trap which bolsters his support to call them in the main alt right extremists. Just as we had in this country with all Brexit supported are racists because it makes people feel that questioning the status quo is being told you are a Nazi, and they know they are not, and they  see plenty of reasons to question the status quo.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 09:44:02 AM
Apologies, NS - I meant that much of Trump's support came from the 'alt right'. Admittedly the neo-nazis and KKK would class themselves (those of them ho can read, anyway) as belonging to this 'movement', which makes the 'tea party' look like a frozen crispy pancake.
I think the alt right, while influential, are a tiny part of the Trump voting base. Also, they are in general both literate and more middle class than many in Trump voting camp.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 14, 2017, 09:56:36 AM
While Bannon has a position in the White House this is what we will get.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 10:16:57 AM
Yes. I agree with that, Rhiannon, and that this foes embolden the extremist part of his support. I think it's a point that nerds to be directly made by those in the Republican party who might stand against him. He pulled them to this position, they have to have the guts to call it out.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 10:35:36 AM

U.S. War Department film 1943

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k0971Hy5eo
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 14, 2017, 10:43:20 AM
U.S. War Department film 1943

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k0971Hy5eo

Trump election campaign was music to the ears of prejudiced Americans,  just like Brexit fed the prejudices of the British!
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 03:16:16 PM
Trump election campaign was music to the ears of prejudiced Americans,  just like Brexit fed the prejudices of the British!
We are all prejudiced in some way. Thinking tgat the majority of Trump voters are extremists is just another piece of othering.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 14, 2017, 03:21:33 PM
We are all prejudiced in some way. Thinking tgat the majority of Trump voters are extremists is just another piece of othering.

You have to be pretty extreme, or very naïve to have voted for Trump, imo.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 03:27:57 PM
You have to be pretty extreme, or very naïve to have voted for Trump, imo.
thank you for illustrating the point.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 14, 2017, 03:37:25 PM
thank you for illustrating the point.

What point?
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 14, 2017, 09:39:10 PM
And John Oliver's take


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07tMQs-5SD8
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 15, 2017, 10:21:10 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/15/trump-retweets-alt-right-provocateur-after-condemning-white-supremacists
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 09:15:50 AM
Interesting piece by  Laurie Penny. Not sure how much I agree with it. I think there is an element of Pascal's wager here, and a false dichotomy in the king that someone couldn't support a system but oppose elements of it.



https://thebaffler.com/war-of-nerves/a-letter-to-my-liberal-friends
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 11:34:40 AM
Confederate flag and Gay Pride flag 'exactly the same thing'


http://www.salon.com/2017/08/15/fox-news-guest-equates-confederate-flag-to-lgbtq-pride-flag-the-exact-same-thing/
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: jeremyp on August 16, 2017, 11:38:22 AM
You have to be pretty extreme, or very naïve to have voted for Trump, imo.
Just checked Trump's approval rating on fivethirtyeight.com. It's still at 37.6%. Do you think more than a third of Americans are extreme or naive?
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 11:40:00 AM
Just checked Trump's approval rating on fivethirtyeight.com. It's still at 37.6%. Do you think more than a third of Americans are extreme or naive?
And were there a vote he's likely to get more than that because while not approved of, he will be some people's least worst option.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 12:25:15 PM

To be fair to May that reads as if she is saying Trump is wrong. Have to say that Sajid Javid has gone up in my estimation for that tweet


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-donald-trump-refuse-charlottesville-neo-nazi-violence-us-president-uk-prime-minister-a7896036.html
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 16, 2017, 01:03:44 PM
The BBC are less selective in their quoting of May.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40948414
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 01:18:13 PM
Yes, I think there is nothing wrong in May avoiding personalising this to be about Trump.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 16, 2017, 01:21:13 PM
It's pretty obvious what she is meaning here. The Indy headline is a lie.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Aruntraveller on August 16, 2017, 03:04:34 PM
I would agree that May is quite forthright here. No equivocation in her statement.  Refreshing for her.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 03:09:18 PM
I would agree that May is quite forthright here. No equivocation in her statement.  Refreshing for her.
Agreed, she doesn't have to say Trump's wrong here. It is all in what she says.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 16, 2017, 03:11:46 PM
I really dislike the Indy's handling of this. I hate having untrustworthy news outlets and the Indy used to be so respected.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 03:16:18 PM
I really dislike the Indy's handling of this. I hate having untrustworthy news outlets and the Indy used to be so respected.
It's a rag now. Mostly I see articles when one of friends has posted a comment saying it's nonsense.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 03:17:06 PM
The Godwin of Godwin's Law speaks out


https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/08/14/godwins_law_creator_rescinds_ruling_after_nazis_march_in_charlottesville/
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Aruntraveller on August 16, 2017, 03:17:56 PM
It's a rag now. Mostly I see articles when one of friends has posted a comment saying it's nonsense.

And the website is useless. The only website that makes my PC freeze and jump about and generally misbehave.

(It's a sight to behold my PC jumping about the room)
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 03:19:36 PM
And the website is useless. The only website that makes my PC freeze and jump about and generally misbehave.

(It's a sight to behold my PC jumping about the room)


And when it's a laptop it can cause serious injury
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 16, 2017, 03:21:37 PM
It's a rag now.

Agree, sadly.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 03:27:18 PM
I really dislike the Indy's handling of this. I hate having untrustworthy news outlets and the Indy used to be so respected.
Just to note, I don't think any news outlet is close to being trustworthy currently. In many cases, not that they are deliberately so but that we use a lot more emotional content across the board in reporting.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 16, 2017, 03:38:49 PM
I'm not sure that it's ever been any different in the sense that there's always been media bias - after all that is why the Indy was founded. It is more shrill these days maybe.

The thing with the Indy headline though is that it was a blatant piece of misrepresentation worthy of Fpx News. Being charitable, I wonder if the intern that was asked to write it didn't actually understand what May was saying.

Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 03:50:50 PM
I'm not sure that it's ever been any different in the sense that there's always been media bias - after all that is why the Indy was founded. It is more shrill these days maybe.

The thing with the Indy headline though is that it was a blatant piece of misrepresentation worthy of Fpx News. Being charitable, I wonder if the intern that was asked to write it didn't actually understand what May was saying.

Agree there has been bias but mostly it was easily recognisable and you could adjust. My personal bugbear is that we seem to get a lot more emotion in reports from such as the BBC where things are 'horrendous' and 'shocking'. Once you do that the bias is introduced binding unconsciously because the reporters think such terns are needed.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 16, 2017, 04:03:37 PM
Agree there has been bias but mostly it was easily recognisable and you could adjust. My personal bugbear is that we seem to get a lot more emotion in reports from such as the BBC where things are 'horrendous' and 'shocking'. Once you do that the bias is introduced binding unconsciously because the reporters think such terns are needed.

I remember years ago the BBC news reporting England losing in some football tournament or other as 'harrowing'. Offensive and pointless hyperbole - and it was so long ago Tony Adams was captain. Was it ever thus?

As an aside, I can't watch the BBC news any more as they seem to be pitching at the Janet and John level.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 16, 2017, 04:20:35 PM
I think it's been a gradual process and while it's simplistic and not where it started, Diana's funeral was a changing point. Sports has always been somewhat hyperbolic and may be where the infection started.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Rhiannon on August 16, 2017, 08:12:11 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40946386

Blimey.
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: floo on August 18, 2017, 11:34:20 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40946386

Blimey.

Good for them. :)
Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: JP on August 18, 2017, 04:31:09 PM
Not that you ever see these images on the BBC and the rest of the MSM but I have seen lots of footage taken by /of people at this and other demonstrations who dress in black, often wear helmets, nearly all cover their faces and many of them carry baseball bats.

No idea why they do not get any airtime.

Title: Re: Charlottesville
Post by: Steve H on August 18, 2017, 08:33:19 PM
https://www.facebook.com/JefferiesShow/videos/1743909145909483/?hc_ref=ARQTvYaZM94ETAP7dQ5K8gr780igya8xgi6W7-THi3dgWC_zHsqJU9X80jvr98CDiuQ&fref=gs&hc_location=group