Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on August 18, 2017, 06:10:59 PM
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A city I've been visiting regularly for over 30 years. Much loved, much enjoyed, a sunny version of my own city. Chippy, garrulous, gallus. I have no opinion at the moment nor since the attack of what we do, who to bomb or not bomb, what the next steps are. I will leave that for some time later and for when the blackness is less.
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My youngest daughter and family are in that part of the world at present, they are back home tomorrow thank goodness.
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My youngest daughter and family are in that part of the world at present, they are back home tomorrow thank goodness.
No tinc por
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There's no one to bomb, these are daft young men who turn murderous, not a nation state.
What we do now is what we always do, what I do about the city I love and where I grew up - we grieve, we mourn, we love it and others even more, we live because that's what we owe.
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There's no one to bomb, these are daft young men who turn murderous, not a nation state.
What we do now is what we always do, what I do about the city I love and where I grew up - we grieve, we mourn, we love it and others even more, we live because that's what we owe.
That's what we do, all that we can just now. But my point was that after that there are always next steps and not bombing people is a choice as much as bombing people. I am not at a stage where either is conceivable, where action other than the grief can be considered. I am neither in a rush to judge or absolve and too often we think the later is somehow more right than the former, or at least the people I generally talk to do, the ones I more occasionally talk to think the former is more right.
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Well I guess 'we' - I - don't get to decide either way. So I'll do what I do.
I'm sorry, NS. I thought of you when I heard. I can't remember if you'd talked about it before but I know it's your kind of place.
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Well I guess 'we' - I - don't get to decide either way. So I'll do what I do.
I'm sorry, NS. I thought of you when I heard. I can't remember if you'd talked about it before but I know it's your kind of place.
I will have posted of it. I tend to go once if not more a year. I love the feeling of it, it has its own history of oppression, it swaggers through life. I see that the 'suspect' is meant to be 17! As I replied elsewhere when I saw that, there is nothing dumber in the world than a 17 year old boy other than a 71 year old man dreaming of what 17 year old boys fo.
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Isn't it all dumb? I think maybe that's the worst of it, the utter, futile stupidity of it. A bit like dropping bombs on Iraqi market places.
ETA When Blair came to power I had this overwhelming sense that he was dangerous. I even wondered if he'd be assassinated, just like some wonder that about Trump.
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Latest reports seem to indicate that the driver of the first van is among those killed in the second.
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Applause for Newsthump.
http://newsthump.com/2017/08/18/please-only-refer-to-the-barcelona-terrorists-as-shrivelled-dicked-bastards-press-told/
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I was shocked to find that when I heard of this that I wasn't completely surprised: that this type of senseless or pointless or gratuitous (or any other adjective) killing seemingly for the sake of it, and with no apparent aim other than to shock, seems almost normal now is utterly obscene. Then this evening there is an incident in Finland and people have been killed, although the details of this aren't yet clear as regards terrorism.
It raises all sorts of anxieties: where is safe and who can be trusted, where the danger is that everywhere and everyone who can be thought of, rightly or wrongly, as representing the 'other' is viewed with suspicion - but without knowing who the enemy is then not only can they not be tackled the risk is that anxiety causes some to see everyone who looks like the 'other' in their eyes as a risk, especially where those doing this stuff turn out to be otherwise unremarkable and aren't known to security services.
I've no idea where we go from here - we were planning to take our grandchildren to France again next year but already today my elder daughter (their mother) is wondering if it is safe for them to leave the UK - I said to her there is no guarantee we'd be any safer holidaying in, say, Cornwall than we would in Royan - and just 5 years ago we'd have no such worries, and that is depressing.
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Statistically the drive to Cornwall, or France, or the airport or ferry terminal, is more of a risk. Come to that, the drive from their house to yours is.
Balanced piece by Simon Jenkins here.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/18/barcelona-attack-europe-seventh-vehicle-what-done
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40982926
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These terrorists are a bunch of pathetic ball-less cowards who can't fight real men & know they've already lost. ::)
Classic scenario !!!
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Statistically the drive to Cornwall, or France, or the airport or ferry terminal, is more of a risk. Come to that, the drive from their house to yours is.
Balanced piece by Simon Jenkins here.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/18/barcelona-attack-europe-seventh-vehicle-what-done
The white van has become the poor man’s guided missile
says Jenkins. So it is being used as a weapon to kill and maim by men who are poor. I wonder, poor in what?
He also goes on to say For decades we have not separated pedestrians from speeding and drunken motorists, despite the resulting death toll
Now that's an idea. Perhaps we should have been building these barriers then no money need have been wasted on tackling the root cause of the speeding and drunken motorists. Just deal with the itch, just keep scratching, no need to tackle the cause.
We are hiding ourselves away, self immolating behind walls, barriers, security cordons and shields. Turn the lights out, light a candle, have a round of applause.
Leanne Wood, Brendan Cox and their ilk have recently attributed this to far right extremism. Why is that, why is it so easy to blame these actions on anything other than what the perpetrators use as their justification, their raison d'etre. Minority they may be but call it for what it is.
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No tinc por
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It is a defiant message in Catalan.
'I am not afraid.'
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Apparently (I won't be able to watch it) there is a programme (drama/documentary?) about the mindset of IS recruits on Channel 4 tomorrow.
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It is a defiant message in Catalan.
'I am not afraid.'
Right!
My daughter has just phoned to say they got back safely and have had a good time. :)
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Apparently (I won't be able to watch it) there is a programme (drama/documentary?) about the mindset of IS recruits on Channel 4 tomorrow.
The State
A four-part drama following the experiences of four British men and women who left their lives behind to join ISIS in 2015.
Channel 4
Sunday 20 August, 21.00 - continues Monday
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Obviously left their BRAINS as well as their lives be - if they ever had one in the first place ?!!?!?
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Plural, trippy.
[/quote]The State
A four-part drama following the experiences of four British men and women who left their lives behind to join ISIS in 2015.
Channel 4
Sunday 20 August, 21.00 - continues Monday
Looking forward to that. I've read several accounts from young people who did the same and regretted. Should be a good drama, I've booked my seat in front of telly.
(Floo I'm glad your family are back safe from Barcelona. Did think of going there in September for a week but the time we can both take as leave coincides with La Merce festival. Spectacular as that may be, I'd prefer to go at a quieter time so we've booked a week in Kefalonia instead.
Barcelona next year definitely.)
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40993651
So very tragic. :o
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Always bugs me a tiny bit when it is announced on the News that such'n'such was British, as if non-Brits don't matter. Tho' I understand that people in Britain will be anxious about their own loved ones travelling abroad.
However, Julian has the most beautiful, soul-wrenching face. Dear little boy, innocent of all political machinations.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41004603
It appears the police have shot dead the driver of the van.
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I can't say I'm sorry about that. He killed the owner of the car he stole.
Frightening to think that there are plenty of others like him & it will happen again.
The State
A four-part drama following the experiences of four British men and women who left their lives behind to join ISIS in 2015.
Channel 4
Sunday 20 August, 21.00 - continues Monday
I watched it,did anyone else? Frightening stuff.
Later - watched second episode but not sure if I can bear to watch any more.
What is good,or will be, is that it may deter young people from being radicalised, they've no idea how awful - bad, bleak, violent - it is out there until it's too late.
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We really need to be worried as to why seemingly 'normal' kids want to do it in the first place.
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Normal kids get all sorts of stupid ideas at various times. What help, guidance and resources do they get in understanding the best way to deal with their feelings and the rest of the world?
I have watched this drama - but it seems very superficial - either too sympathetic to "innocent idealists" caught up by Islamist propaganda or could be seen as propaganda itself.
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'Normal' kids can very easily fall into drugs, thieving, gangs, murder. This is that dressed up as religious war.
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I have not been able to see the programme.
It is my understanding that this "cause" is attractive to recent recruits to Islam or to young people (second or third generation British) for whom, after a period of dormancy, religion suddenly becomes very important. In some cases it gives young British muslims a sense of "identity" that was "missing" before.
There is the enthusiasm, the zeal, of the newly converted (or the rediscovered) and this - accompanied by a testosterone high - ensures that emotion supplants rationality.
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The author has been arguing that radicalization is not about religion. However, I've seen this argued elsewhere, for example, by Scott Atran. I suppose this makes a big difference to deradicalization programmes, although I don't know how you tackle it as a non-religious phenomenon.
Can't find a link to it now.
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The author has been arguing that radicalization is not about religion. However, I've seen this argued elsewhere, for example, by Scott Atran. I suppose this makes a big difference to deradicalization programmes, although I don't know how you tackle it as a non-religious phenomenon.
Can't find a link to it now.
You need both approaches, surely? Religious and social education and vigilance is necessary, but aside from that I think it must be like beating gang culture generally - create better allegiances and find healthier ways of giving a sense of purpose.
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Scott Atran has the idea of 'devoted actors', who as the phrase suggests, want to sacrifice themselves to a cause.
"devoted actors adopt values they regard as sacred and nonnegotiable, to be defended at all costs. Then, when they join a like-minded group of nonkin that feels like a family a band of brothers a collective sense of invincibility and special destiny overwhelms feelings of individuality. As members of a tightly bound group that perceives its sacred values under attack, devoted actors will kill and die for each other."
Of course, this can be channelled into all kinds of causes, such as patriotism. I don't know how you rechannel it.
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2016/08/scott_atran_on_.html
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Not sure I'll watchsecond ep of 'The State' tonight. I found so much of it upsetting, especially the babies killed in the hospital & beheadings. There's a limit to what i can take - still I think it is good to be shown if only to show would be converts what they're getting into!
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.. because Channel 4 dramas are an important source for would be converts looking for information?
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Dunno about that Udayana. If I was a naive idealistic young Muslim looking for a cause the realities shown of what it is really like to be out there would put me off for life; that is, if I believed what the media was showing.
I might think it was just propaganda,on other hand might believe it. Can't think myself into the heads of people who would go there - don't want to really.
It was horrible. I haven't watched the Tuesday night episode. Previous night showed bombing of hospital with dead babies, very upsetting. Later beheadings.
Night!
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It's only been getting worse ... with beatings and bodies piling up.