Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on September 28, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
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Hi everyone,
Here is an article about gender neutral schools in Sweden.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/28/health/sweden-gender-neutral-preschool/index.html
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From the moment a child is born, its gender pretty much determines how they will dress, which toys they'll be given and ultimately how they are meant to behave within society.
But some schools in Sweden are trying to strip away such gender norms.
There are no designated areas to play with dolls or building blocks. The toys have been strategically jumbled to create an environment for girls and boys to play together.
These two preschools in Sweden -- Nicolaigarden and Egalia (meaning 'equality' in Latin) -- go to great lengths to de-emphasize gender. Children are given the freedom to challenge and cross gender boundaries.
Rather than encourage children to do particular things, the teachers are careful not to box children based on their gender or subtly discourage them from doing certain things.
The school has removed the terms "girl" and "boy" completely. Instead they make a deliberate effort to call each child by their first name or the gender-neutral pronoun "hen".
But is it necessary to intervene at such a young age, and what are the long-term effects?
"It's an open question what happens to these children when they move into primary school," he says. "My guess is it [gender neutral pedagogy] could continue to influence their behavior potentially, not in a very strong way necessarily. But it may have some lasting effects."
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Any views?
Sriram
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I rebelled against being dressed is pretty clothes and the girl's toys I was given. I spent my childhood engaging in reckless activities more associated with the male of the species.
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Miss Bennett needed a brassiere before she had completed Year 5.
It was rather obvious as to which gender she belongs.
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Miss Bennett needed a brassiere before she had completed Year 5.
It was rather obvious as to which gender she belongs.
Methinks you are confusing sex and gender...
O.
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Seems daft, experimenting on children with no actual knowledge of how they will be affected psychologically.
Anyway, what about the influences of parents, family, TV and the rest of society when they are not at school?
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Methinks you are confusing sex and gender...
O.
look, God made .............. fuck all apparently so just be you and be happy
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Methinks you are confusing sex and gender...
O.
Er, no.
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Seems daft, experimenting on children with no actual knowledge of how they will be affected psychologically.
Anyway, what about the influences of parents, family, TV and the rest of society when they are not at school?
Isn't that the same logic that said gay couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt?
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Seems daft, experimenting on children with no actual knowledge of how they will be affected psychologically.
Unless you run the "experiment" how is anyone supposed to know how kids might be affected or indeed if there will be any effect at all?
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Er, no.
when I was young I was once caught fucking a melon, it was so embarrassing . After a while Mrs Melon made it clear , I was no longer welcome in their house
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Isn't that the same logic that said gay couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt?
No idea - is it? Surely we have had children raised by gay couples throughout history without ill effects noted? And it must be better than to put them in the care of demented or rabid nuns, say?
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No idea - is it? Surely we have had children raised by gay couples throughout history without ill effects noted? And it must be better than to put them in the care of demented or rabid nuns, say?
Rabid nuns? Is this some David Cronenbrrg film I missed?
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Unless you run the "experiment" how is anyone supposed to know how kids might be affected or indeed if there will be any effect at all?
True, but not convinced that at the end of the experiment that they will have any idea what effect, if any, they have had.
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Rabid nuns? Is this some David Cronenbrrg film I missed?
A film still be made. It starts off with the discovery of a cache of bodies of unknown children found buried beneath an old ruin ..
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A film still be made. It starts off with the discovery of a cache of bodies of unknown children found buried beneath an old ruin ..
And to somehow not derail here, they are all hermaphroditic????
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No spoilers!
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No spoilers!
of course, sweetie!
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Aren't the vast majority of us male or female? and I mean 'vast', Yes there are those who are intersex and it i right they are accommodated, especially in education but we...are generally boys or girls. Nothing to do with dolls or trains.
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Aren't the vast majority of us male or female? and I mean 'vast', Yes there are those who are intersex and it i right they are accommodated, especially in education but we...are generally boys or girls. Nothing to do with dolls or trains.
It's not about intersex, it's about gender roles
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Aren't the vast majority of us male or female? and I mean 'vast', Yes there are those who are intersex and it i right they are accommodated, especially in education but we...are generally boys or girls. Nothing to do with dolls or trains.
"Sex" is the biological condition of being either male or female.
"Gender" is the set of cultural values and roles that are considered appropriate for members of either sex. Gender is assessed on a continuum between masculine and feminine. However, it seems that for some people the word "sex" appears to be rather confrontational and so they use "gender" as a euphemism.
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YER WOT ?!!?!?!? ;) ;)
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"Sex" is the biological condition of being either male or female.
"Gender" is the set of cultural values and roles that are considered appropriate for members of either sex. Gender is assessed on a continuum between masculine and feminine. However, it seems that for some people the word "sex" appears to be rather confrontational and so they use "gender" as a euphemism.
One wonders if some people have a gender agenda.
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YER WOT ?!!?!?!? ;) ;)
If that was in reply to Harrowby Hall's post, which was as usual admirably clear, I have no idea what caused your wot!
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I get it. I think most schools do that nowadays though, kids play how they want and teachers call them by their first names.
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If that was in reply to Harrowby Hall's post, which was as usual admirably clear, I have no idea what caused your wot!
I am still trying to work that one out.
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Which one, Harrowby's or Tripey's?
I understood Harrowby's post but not Trippymonkey's response.
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I'm all for avoiding gender stereotypes but to try to ignore the sex of the child seems going a bit far.
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I agree, we are what are. Maybe they are not exactly doing that though & it's all about not gender stereotyping, which I think most schools try to avoid nowadays. The Swedish pre-schools in the article seems to be making an awful lot out of what is quite usual.
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Seems daft, experimenting on children with no actual knowledge of how they will be affected psychologically.
Really? It seems like we've been 'experimenting' with a binary gender definition for centuries, and we have solid reports of the damage it can do if you don't neatly fit into those compartments. It seems like a different 'experiment' might result in more happy people.
Anyway, what about the influences of parents, family, TV and the rest of society when they are not at school?
TV and society at large are already adopting a more enlightened and nuanced view of the interplay between gender, sex and sexuality; that's why 'gay' rights and issues are now 'LGBTQI' rights and issues.
O.
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I'm all for avoiding gender stereotypes but to try to ignore the sex of the child seems going a bit far.
Is wearing dress, though, ignoring the sex or the gender? Does being female necessitate wearing an open-bottomed garment, somehow, or is that our cultural expectation of girls?
O.
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Most little girls wear trousers or shorts same as boys, especially for a pre-school where they play a lot, they're comfortable and practical - but we can't ignore the fact that some girls really like dresses!
The way I see it is just let them develop naturally without making a big issue out of anything. The important thing is for children to be happy.
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Is wearing dress, though, ignoring the sex or the gender? Does being female necessitate wearing an open-bottomed garment, somehow, or is that our cultural expectation of girls?
O.
No, I was referring to the suggestion that the words boy and girl were avoided completely.
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Most little girls wear trousers or shorts same as boys, especially for a pre-school where they play a lot, they're comfortable and practical - but we can't ignore the fact that some girls really like dresses!
I think the issue comes up more when the little boys like dresses
The way I see it is just let them develop naturally without making a big issue out of anything. The important thing is for children to be happy.
Surely not! How can they be happy doing what they like and not what I think is right!!!!
O.
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Most little girls wear trousers or shorts same as boys, especially for a pre-school where they play a lot, they're comfortable and practical - but we can't ignore the fact that some girls really like dresses!
The way I see it is just let them develop naturally without making a big issue out of anything. The important thing is for children to be happy.
Do they really like dresses though because of the positive feedback they get when they wear them?
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;D to Outrider
Maeght - No, some are naturally drawn to pretty fabrics and designs. Others couldn't care less! Which goes to show we shouldn't stereotype.
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;D to Outrider
Maeght - No, some are naturally drawn to pretty fabrics and designs. Others couldn't care less! Which goes to show we shouldn't stereotype.
Someare, but pretty fabrics aren't restricted to dresses. Not sure how you can say a blanket No, I think it is most likely. I think there are cultural signals and influences we all give out without realising it, but that eill always be the case, we just need to avoid it where we can.
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Do they really like dresses though because of the positive feedback they get when they wear them?
Isn't positive feedback a big part of why we all like the things we do?
O.
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Isn't positive feedback a big part of why we all like the things we do?
O.
Yes of course.
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We are a product of both Nature and Nurture. Its not just about genitals and hormones. Its also about how the mind is developed through upbringing.
And there is nothing wrong about nurture. That's the way we develop. You can't leave a baby alone in a field and 'allow' it to develop as it wishes. That is nonsense.
While deliberate gender stereotyping should be avoided, certain forms of nurture and training are an important part of every child's life. There is no such thing as a 'natural' liking for something. There is always an element of upbringing attached to it. It can't be avoided.
Recognizing ones gender and sex is one of the most important elements of a child's upbringing. How can that be avoided?
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Recognizing ones gender and sex is one of the most important elements of a child's upbringing. How can that be avoided?
I think the issues come when:
a) sex and gender are assumed to be the same thing;
b) gender isn't 'recognised', it's enforced; and
c) gender ideas massively differentiate the way people are treated and the expectations and limitations that societies put on them.
O.
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I think the issues come when:
a) sex and gender are assumed to be the same thing;
b) gender isn't 'recognised', it's enforced; and
c) gender ideas massively differentiate the way people are treated and the expectations and limitations that societies put on them.
O.
Well, just avoid doing those things?
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Really? It seems like we've been 'experimenting' with a binary gender definition for centuries, and we have solid reports of the damage it can do if you don't neatly fit into those compartments. It seems like a different 'experiment' might result in more happy people.
I was just thinking that if a study was proposed to achieve the same ends using drugs or, say, some kind of behavioural conditioning, it wouldn't get ethical approval.
TV and society at large are already adopting a more enlightened and nuanced view of the interplay between gender, sex and sexuality; that's why 'gay' rights and issues are now 'LGBTQI' rights and issues.
Culture changes all the time, let it do its job. This is like trying to stop people liking pop music by letting them listen to nothing but opera.
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I was just thinking that if a study was proposed to achieve the same ends using drugs or, say, some kind of behavioural conditioning, it wouldn't get ethical approval.
That's the exact opposite of this 'experiment'. This is saying that rather than force a cultural expectation onto children, let's let them grow into whomever they feel they want to be. This is deliberately attempting to avoid conditioning, not to enforce it.
Culture changes all the time, let it do its job.
We are - culture, at least in modern Western democracies, is moving towards a culture of personal liberty and freedom, where people have the space and right to grow as they choose, not to be constricted or defined by other people's conceptualisations of what they should be.
This is like trying to stop people liking pop music by letting them listen to nothing but opera.
No, this is like saying to people you can listen to whatever music you'd like, and though some pretentious purists will tell you that classical is the only music you need, and social movers and shakers are all about milking your money through what they're pushing through the charts, you have access to the smooth jazz selection if you'd like...
O.
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I was just thinking that if a study was proposed to achieve the same ends using drugs or, say, some kind of behavioural conditioning, it wouldn't get ethical approval.Culture changes all the time, let it do its job. This is like trying to stop people liking pop music by letting them listen to nothing but opera.
The problem comes when cultural expectations effect people's opportunities in life or how thet fit into society. If a child is conditioned to think they can't do this or that or should do this or that due to their sex then this is wrong.
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The problem comes when cultural expectations effect people's opportunities in life or how thet fit into society. If a child is conditioned to think they can't do this or that or should do this or that due to their sex then this is wrong.
Pedantry warning:
In the first sentence, did you mean "effect" or "affect"? A single mis-applied letter totally changes the meaning of the sentence.
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when I was young I was once caught fucking a melon, it was so embarrassing . After a while Mrs Melon made it clear , I was no longer welcome in their house
That is not sex, or gender, it is penetration.
(and the old ones aint always the best)
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The problem comes when cultural expectations effect people's opportunities in life or how thet fit into society. If a child is conditioned to think they can't do this or that or should do this or that due to their sex then this is wrong.
I agree. The answer is to influence and change the culture and society they grow up in and into, not try and manipulate children by having them grow up in a bubble.
If there is one thing I have learnt about humans it is that they will always find a bug in their programming and break out.
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The problem comes when cultural expectations effect people's opportunities in life or how thet fit into society. If a child is conditioned to think they can't do this or that or should do this or that due to their sex then this is wrong.
Very wrong indeed but happens less often than in the past. Thinking about it, my parents didn't condition me (or my sister), in that way all those many years ago but my mum had a career.
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I think the issues come when:
a) sex and gender are assumed to be the same thing;
b) gender isn't 'recognised', it's enforced; and
c) gender ideas massively differentiate the way people are treated and the expectations and limitations that societies put on them.
O.
To eliminate gender discrimination you can't eliminate gender itself. Like cutting off the head to get rid of a headache.
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To eliminate gender discrimination you can't eliminate gender itself. Like cutting off the head to get rid of a headache.
There's a difference between eliminating gender and not emphasising it; the gender identity will be there, but if you don't make reference to it - especially not in undifferentiated binary terms - then it develops along its own fluid pathway rather than being corralled down a road of cultural expectation.
O.
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I agree with that & would think most of us have that attitude with our families but to completely avoid - or ban - saying boy or girl seems extreme; we are girls and boys after all and many of us like what we are.
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There's a difference between eliminating gender and not emphasising it; the gender identity will be there, but if you don't make reference to it - especially not in undifferentiated binary terms - then it develops along its own fluid pathway rather than being corralled down a road of cultural expectation.
O.
Agreed.
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I agree with that & would think most of us have that attitude with our families but to completely avoid - or ban - saying boy or girl seems extreme; we are girls and boys after all and many of us like what we are.
well said Robinson
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Pedantry warning:
In the first sentence, did you mean "effect" or "affect"? A single mis-applied letter totally changes the meaning of the sentence.
Affect. I always struggle with that.
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Very wrong indeed but happens less often than in the past. Thinking about it, my parents didn't condition me (or my sister), in that way all those many years ago but my mum had a career.
I disagree with this. True, it is not expected that both men and women will work but there is still an expectation that boys do this and girls do that. More than that though is the expectation of what it means to be male and what it means to be female. I was shocked at the marketing of stuff to girls that just didn't happen when I was a kid - we had 'science kits', now there are 'girls science kits' that make perfume and lip gloss. Check out the Argos catalogue which might as well have been printed in 1973 - boys playing with cars, girls doing the pretend ironing, just like mummy. And this is without the influence of fat shaming, porn etc etc etc.
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I disagree with this. True, it is not expected that both men and women will work but there is still an expectation that boys do this and girls do that. More than that though is the expectation of what it means to be male and what it means to be female. I was shocked at the marketing of stuff to girls that just didn't happen when I was a kid - we had 'science kits', now there are 'girls science kits' that make perfume and lip gloss. Check out the Argos catalogue which might as well have been printed in 1973 - boys playing with cars, girls doing the pretend ironing, just like mummy. And this is without the influence of fat shaming, porn etc etc etc.
Totally agree.
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I disagree with this. True, it is not expected that both men and women will work but there is still an expectation that boys do this and girls do that. More than that though is the expectation of what it means to be male and what it means to be female. I was shocked at the marketing of stuff to girls that just didn't happen when I was a kid - we had 'science kits', now there are 'girls science kits' that make perfume and lip gloss. Check out the Argos catalogue which might as well have been printed in 1973 - boys playing with cars, girls doing the pretend ironing, just like mummy. And this is without the influence of fat shaming, porn etc etc etc.
I agree.
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I disagree with this. True, it is not expected that both men and women will work but there is still an expectation that boys do this and girls do that. More than that though is the expectation of what it means to be male and what it means to be female. I was shocked at the marketing of stuff to girls that just didn't happen when I was a kid - we had 'science kits', now there are 'girls science kits' that make perfume and lip gloss. Check out the Argos catalogue which might as well have been printed in 1973 - boys playing with cars, girls doing the pretend ironing, just like mummy. And this is without the influence of fat shaming, porn etc etc etc.
Yes.
This just shows that despite all the posturing and PC language society in general has not changed much - businesses and advertisers follow public demand as much as direct it.
Issues need to be widely discussed and understood before change can be anything other than superficial. This is obvious isn't it?
Failing that. people could lead by example and put up with being mocked until it catches on. Mostly we are monkeys at heart.
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Yes.
This just shows that despite all the posturing and PC language society in general has not changed much - businesses and advertisers follow public demand as much as direct it.
Issues need to be widely discussed and understood before change can be anything other than superficial. This is obvious isn't it?
Failing that. people could lead by example and put up with being mocked until it catches on. Mostly we are monkeys at heart.
speak for yourself, I'm a funky gibbon 8)
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I disagree with this. True, it is not expected that both men and women will work but there is still an expectation that boys do this and girls do that. More than that though is the expectation of what it means to be male and what it means to be female. I was shocked at the marketing of stuff to girls that just didn't happen when I was a kid - we had 'science kits', now there are 'girls science kits' that make perfume and lip gloss. Check out the Argos catalogue which might as well have been printed in 1973 - boys playing with cars, girls doing the pretend ironing, just like mummy. And this is without the influence of fat shaming, porn etc etc etc.
What do you mean 'True, it is not expected that both men and women will work'..?! Why is it not expected that both men and women will work? In lower classes both men and women have worked side by side for millennia.
I think we are over reacting to the men-women role stuff. Whenever the situation has demanded both men and women have risen to the occasion and did what was necessary. Many women have fought in wars even in ancient times.
But that is not the same as not recognizing boys as boys and girls as girls. That is rubbish! 'Hen' indeed! ::)
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What do you mean 'True, it is not expected that both men and women will work'..?! Why is it not expected that both men and women will work? In lower classes both men and women have worked side by side for millennia.
I think we are over reacting to the men-women role stuff. Whenever the situation has demanded both men and women have risen to the occasion and did what was necessary. Many women have fought in wars even in ancient times.
But that is not the same as not recognizing boys as boys and girls as girls. That is rubbish! 'Hen' indeed! ::)
It should be 'now' and not 'not'. Typo.
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It should be 'now' and not 'not'. Typo.
Ok...that's alright then...(although some people have agreed with you regardless).
But my point still stands. Women and men have been working side by side for millennia in fields, farms, laundries, managing shops, and eateries, as butlers and maid servants and so on. Men have been cooking at restaurants for centuries. Some women have even worked as soldiers and spies in ancient times. Many women have ruled kingdoms. But it was always a matter of necessity and not about a fancy.
We are making too big a deal about this men-women roles. And that still does not justify the 'No boy, girl' nonsense.
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I think it is expected that both men and women work, especially now. I know that up to the end of the first half of the last century and maybe a bit more, women often did not work outside of the home. Fine if that was their choice and they had fulfillment and sufficient funds but that was not everyone's ideal life. It was insulting to expect that of a woman!
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I think it is expected that both men and women work, especially now. I know that up to the end of the first half of the last century and maybe a bit more, women often did not work outside of the home. Fine if that was their choice and they had fulfillment and sufficient funds but that was not everyone's ideal life. It was insulting to expect that of a woman!
I don't understand your point. Where possible and necessary, both men and women have worked all through history. Many upper class women did not need to is a different matter.
We must also remember that the conditions in earlier times were not conducive for women to work outside the home. Electricity & lighting, mobile phones, cars and buses, luxurious eateries, toilets and such facilities are available today. Police protection is a phone call away. Elegant offices, corporate office work, easy desk jobs, computer technology are available. Child care centres are available. Wild animals and highway robbers are not a problem.
This was not so even a few decades ago. In some countries these are not available for many people even today.
Its easy for women to talk of working outside the home under today's conditions. Even hundred years ago it would have been almost impossible for even most western women to work outside the home, given the conditions.
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It seems I haven't understood all points made in recent posts on this thread, sririam, so, instead of making errors, I'll leave it for now. I'm tired (& full of food atm), but will return later.
Later. I think I understand what others have been saying, I can see all points of view in most of the posts. Don't think I can add any more that's useful.
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The UK seems to have taken this nonsense a little further. :D
From the 2021 census, UK citizens will not have to state whether they are Male or Female in the census forms.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-sex-please-this-is-the-census-sswntgs5z
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The UK is to become one of the first countries in the world not to require its citizens to let officialdom know what sex they are.
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) is proposing to make the sex question in the next census voluntary, after protests that it discriminates against transgender and other non-binary people.
The change will leave Britain without an accurate figure for the number of men and women living in the country.
The proposal was greeted with horror last night by some feminists, who see it as part of a growing trend to remove all mention of the biological female sex.
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Its a 'tentative' recommendation that the question is made voluntary so not decided yet. I think this is mire to do with the increased awareness of transgender than trying to avoid references to boys and girls.
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I've tried a google to find the horrified feminists but nothing doing.
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Germain Greer is quoted as being 'sick and tired of this' but that's about it.
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Sriram
Not recognizing boys as boys and girls as girls is sad, appalling, worrying and dangerous and quite unbelievable. A child should be able to realise and find joy in the wonders of being a girl or being a boy. To take this away from them is a form of abuse and very wrong.
This sadly though is a reflection of the mixed-up, upside down society that we live in, where evil is good and good is evil.
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Sriram
Not recognizing boys as boys and girls as girls is sad, appalling, worrying and dangerous and quite unbelievable. A child should be able to realise and find joy in the wonders of being a girl or being a boy. To take this away from them is a form of abuse and very wrong.
What's your comment on girls who don't feel like girls and boys who don't feel like boys?
This sadly though is a reflection of the mixed-up, upside down society that we live in, where evil is good and good is evil.
You could always leave it, if you dislike it so much.
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There's a thread about the 'wonders' of being female.
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Sriram
Not recognizing boys as boys and girls as girls is sad, appalling, worrying and dangerous and quite unbelievable. A child should be able to realise and find joy in the wonders of being a girl or being a boy. To take this away from them is a form of abuse and very wrong.
This sadly though is a reflection of the mixed-up, upside down society that we live in, where evil is good and good is evil.
Yes...SweetPea.....you're right.
Being considerate towards minorities is fine but this should not sink into minoritism.
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I don't think that is what it is about though but rather about gender stereotyping which leads to people of all sexes thinking there are certain things they should do or which they shouldn't (or aren't able) to do, say, dress etc.
Regarding the comments about allowing girls to enjoy being girls and boys enjoy being boys what characteristics, behaviours or activities do people think being a girl or being a boy entails? I think each person should enjoy being them and not feel they have to conform to a cultural gender stereotype.
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Please refer to my post 38. There is no such thing as a boy or girl without suitable nurture and cultural input, added to the genetic profile. Genes alone do not make boys and girls.
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Yes and I agree with that post. The question wasn't really aimed at you. However you say you agree with Sweetpea, who seems to me to be talking in terms of gender stereotypes. This may not be the case but until this is established ars you sure you should be agreeing?
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Girls are "sugar and spice, and all things nice". Boys are "slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails". So I was told when I was a little boy. And this seemed to inform the behaviour of adults towards me.
Girls were considered to be morally superior to boys - more truthful, more honest. Were I to be in dispute with a girl - in almost any situation - the girl's version of events would be accepted as correct. Girls were given comfort when distressed, boys were told to be strong.
Girls received more considerate treatment. At my junior school, children were not allowed inside the school buildings during the lunch break, if it rained girls were let into the building boys remained outside.
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Girls are "sugar and spice, and all things nice". Boys are "slugs and snails and puppy dogs' tails". So I was told when I was a little boy. And this seemed to inform the behaviour of adults towards me.
Girls were considered to be morally superior to boys - more truthful, more honest. Were I to be in dispute with a girl - in almost any situation - the girl's version of events would be accepted as correct. Girls were given comfort when distressed, boys were told to be strong.
Girls received more considerate treatment. At my junior school, children were not allowed inside the school buildings during the lunch break, if it rained girls were let into the building boys remained outside.
Your culture and upbringing made you what you are. If you had been treated like a girl you may not have been the same person that you are.
My point is that culture and upbringing cannot be separated from sex and gender identification. There is no such thing as a boy or girl being 'left free to choose'. Everyone needs to be taught and trained to be what they are, without which suitable neural connections will not happen. The personality will not develop without culture and training.
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Your culture and upbringing made you what you are. If you had been treated like a girl you may not have been the same person that you are.
My point is that culture and upbringing cannot be separated from sex and gender identification. There is no such thing as a boy or girl being 'left free to choose'. Everyone needs to be taught and trained to be what they are, without which suitable neural connections will not happen. The personality will not develop without culture and training.
So you think that peole born with a particular set of genitalia should be trained to confirm to cultural gender stereotypes, usually led by men who want women to be what they would like I have to say.
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When I was pregnant a lot of people (including other pregnant mums) said it was 'good' to have a girl as girls were 'easier'. What a load of utter bollocks, but people were worried about having boys. Ffs.
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Your culture and upbringing made you what you are. If you had been treated like a girl you may not have been the same person that you are.
My point is that culture and upbringing cannot be separated from sex and gender identification. There is no such thing as a boy or girl being 'left free to choose'. Everyone needs to be taught and trained to be what they are, without which suitable neural connections will not happen. The personality will not develop without culture and training.
YE GODS, but I preferred to play with boy's toys when I was a child. I would have resented having dolls forced on me.
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Your culture and upbringing made you what you are. If you had been treated like a girl you may not have been the same person that you are.
Absolutely.
My point is that culture and upbringing cannot be separated from sex and gender identification.
Well, sex it can, that's a biological determination, but gender I'd agree is a function of society and culture.
There is no such thing as a boy or girl being 'left free to choose'.
Choose between what?
Everyone needs to be taught and trained to be what they are, without which suitable neural connections will not happen.
They're people, and they need to be taught that. They are unique, individual people, and whilst some of them can be grouped by, say, their reproductive organs, that no more needs to primarily define or limit them than, say, their physical build or their height. These all have formative influences on them, there are necessary, unavoidable restrictions that these physical realities impose, but we don't need to culturally add to impositions and expectations.
The personality will not develop without culture and training.
It can't develop without cultural influence, certainly, but how are we training people to be something when we have no idea who they're going to be when they get there?
O.
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Who decides which are cultural restrictions and which are cultural necessities?!
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Who decides which are cultural restrictions and which are cultural necessities?!
Society. Currently society seems to be moving towards a less restrictive, more open and self-determined view of gender, at least in the more liberal, Western arenas.
O.
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Society. Currently society seems to be moving towards a less restrictive, more open and self-determined view of gender, at least in the more liberal, Western arenas.
O.
Thank goodness.
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Society. Currently society seems to be moving towards a less restrictive, more open and self-determined view of gender, at least in the more liberal, Western arenas.
O.
I'm not convinced this really is the case. It's very surface; gender neutral school uniforms don't do much to counter the porn culture or even the dominant disneyfication of what it means to be female and the Marvel version of masculinity.
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I'm not convinced this really is the case. It's very surface; gender neutral school uniforms don't do much to counter the porn culture or even the dominant disneyfication of what it means to be female and the Marvel version of masculinity.
But it's a start - it has to start somewhere. Racial equality isn't even nearly all the way there, but it's come quite a way, and that started with simple, superficial things like changing the terms of reference people used.
Just the fact that people are having the discussion in the public forum about what it means to be male/female, learning that sex and gender aren't as intrinsically linked as we'd previously assumed, learning therefore that gender roles are constrictive and limiting for everyone... this is a start.
O.
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I'm not convinced this really is the case. It's very surface; gender neutral school uniforms don't do much to counter the porn culture or even the dominant disneyfication of what it means to be female and the Marvel version of masculinity.
That there are multiple influences pulling in different ways is undoubtedly true, and while I am not a great believer in claims of absolute progress, surely there is almost by definition a large change in how we think of gender in that it was previously seen effectively the same as sex?
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Who decides which are cultural restrictions and which are cultural necessities?!
Provided things are within the law of the land individuals can decide for themselves what there likes and dislikes are, how they want to dress, what they are interested in, what careers they have and so on. Why should anyone else impose any of that on someone just because they have a particular genitalia?
What sort of thing did you have in mind when you said cultural necessities?
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Just to clarify my previous post.... I was not referring so much to gender differences, i.e. girls doing boyish things, boys doing girly things.... all quite normal and healthy, and also relates to boys recognising the female part of their personality and girls realising the male part of their personality. It's the idea of not using the term 'boy' or 'girl' and referring to the children with a genderless word "hen". All that will be achieved is a group of confused and ultimately, in some cases, maladjusted children.
This is social engineering at it's best, and what I meant by evil masquerading as good.
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Just to clarify my previous post.... I was not referring so much to gender differences, i.e. girls doing boyish things, boys doing girly things.... all quite normal and healthy, and also relates to boys recognising the female part of their personality and girls realising the male part of their personality. It's the idea of not using the term 'boy' or 'girl' and referring to the children with a genderless word "hen". All that will be achieved is a group of confused and ultimately, in some cases, maladjusted children.
This is social engineering at it's best, and what I meant by evil masquerading as good.
Thanks for the clarification, good to hear. I think however you are over stating the effect of using a word which is recognised as a gender neutral term in Swedish. I really don't think the children will be confused.
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Thanks for the clarification, good to hear. I think however you are over stating the effect of using a word which is recognised as a gender neutral term in Swedish. I really don't think the children will be confused.
Indeed.
It's surprising how un-confused children are by things that some adults profess to be confused by, or who think (on their behalf) that children will be confused by.
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The most important thing is for a person to be comfortable with the skin they are in.
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Thanks for the clarification, good to hear. I think however you are over stating the effect of using a word which is recognised as a gender neutral term in Swedish. I really don't think the children will be confused.
Agree completely. 'Maladjustment' is far more likely to arise from trying to live within strictly defined gender roles.
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The most important thing is for a person to be comfortable with the skin they are in.
Yes...and the skin a person is comfortable in does not depend only on their genes and genitals. It depends also on their upbringing and culture. We all learn what we are by and by, not the day we are born. So...what we are taught is very important.
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Yes...and the skin a person is comfortable in does not depend only on their genes and genitals. It depends also on their upbringing and culture. We all learn what we are by and by, not the day we are born. So...what we are taught is very important.
One can rebel against one's upbringing and culture. I kicked into touch the religion, which was forced down my throat, and my mother's attempt to always dress me in pretty clothes, which I detested.
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Yes...and the skin a person is comfortable in does not depend only on their genes and genitals. It depends also on their upbringing and culture. We all learn what we are by and by, not the day we are born. So...what we are taught is very important.
Rejecting what we are taught can be even more important.
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One can rebel against one's upbringing and culture. I kicked into touch the religion, which was forced down my throat, and my mother's attempt to always dress me in pretty clothes, which I detested.
Yes...and that rebellion will again be due to someone else's teaching or due to an innate tendency towards rebellion during adolescence.
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Absolutely.
Well, sex it can, that's a biological determination, but gender I'd agree is a function of society and culture.
Choose between what?
They're people, and they need to be taught that. They are unique, individual people, and whilst some of them can be grouped by, say, their reproductive organs, that no more needs to primarily define or limit them than, say, their physical build or their height. These all have formative influences on them, there are necessary, unavoidable restrictions that these physical realities impose, but we don't need to culturally add to impositions and expectations.
It can't develop without cultural influence, certainly, but how are we training people to be something when we have no idea who they're going to be when they get there?
O.
Biology and upbringing are connected. Sex and gender are interdependent. If a child is taught to live like the opposite gender for example, it is possible that through epigenetic mechanisms his/her... gene expression...neural connections...hormonal development ....are affected.
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Unlikely.
Years ago I watched a beautiful and achingly sad French film about a boy who was born in rural France on the Victorian era. His genitalia were not fully formed and at birth he was declared female. Because of her Catholic upbringing his mother never looked directly at his body and he was raised as a girl. But as a young adult he was attracted to women and fell in love; a subsequent court case revealed he was in fact male. He killed himself.
Sex and gender are not as interdependent as you think, Stiram, and nature will out.
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Yes...and that rebellion will again be due to someone else's teaching or due to an innate tendency towards rebellion during adolescence.
That rebellion was due to me being me.
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referring to the children with a genderless word "hen".
That's not a genderless word. When I see it written down, I immediately visualise a female chicken.
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That's not a genderless word. When I see it written down, I immediately visualise a female chicken.
It is in Swedish.
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I suppose it's not different to calling a child or children, "Child", or "Children", out loud, which sounds old fashioned, stiff and formal by today's standards but it wasn't uncommon in earlier (?Dickens') times. If accompanied by a kind & cheerful manner, might be acceptable.
I'm all in favour of doing away with gender stereotypes but from what I've seen of pre-schools (which in my day were Kindergarten), they are run that way anyway, children are children and they play with what and whom they choose. If parents want their kids to grow up to be happy and fulfilled, what's the problem? Only a problem if people start denying there are girls and boys which is ridiculous, there are and always will be and many of us like being boys or girls.
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referring to the children with a genderless word "hen".
In Scotland, hen is used to refer to female persons.
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...and children and younger people of whom they're fond. I remember relatives by marriage of mine calling me and mine that and I liked it.
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Yes, but this word is being used in Sweden where it is an accepted gender neutral term. What relevance has its meaning here got?
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Yes, but this word is being used in Sweden where it is an accepted gender neutral term. What relevance has its meaning here got?
Other than people chatting about it from a purely sidetracky way or finding out about word usage in different parts of the country? Probably nothing!
;)
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A 1994 Blur song from their 'Pondlife' album might need a bit of adjustment at this point.
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A 1994 Blur song from their 'Pondlife' album might need a bit of adjustment at this point.
Not a Blur fan or was that a slip of the tongue?
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When Parklife was very popular I knew someone's mum who always referred to the song, quite seriously, as 'Pondlife', it has sort of stuck.
The song I was talking about was "Boys and Girls", very good for parties. Just thinking about that now brings back memories plus, "Don't look back in anger", by Oasis. Not my era, I was in my thirties, but liked the sound.
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A 1994 Blur song from their 'Pondlife' album might need a bit of adjustment at this point.
Girls who are boys, who like boys to be girls
Who do boys like they're girls, who do girls like they're boys
Always should be someone you really love
The last line is good advice.
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Girls who are boys, who like boys to be girls
Who do boys like they're girls, who do girls like they're boys
Always should be someone you really love
The last line is good advice.
a fantastic bass line in that tune ! 🎸
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Very good song, great group, brings back some memories but it has occurred to me that i might have offended by being flippant on this thread and I didn't mean to bring it down.