Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on October 19, 2017, 11:05:13 AM
-
I know there was a thread on this when the consultation period started but I couldn't find it in the happorth of time I looked. Anyway good news that the Scottish govt will back this. Hope it goes through unanimously.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41678797
-
I know there was a thread on this when the consultation period started but I couldn't find it in the happorth of time I looked. Anyway goof news that the Scottish govt will back this. Hope it goes through unanimously.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41678797
it is good news , as long as you're still allowed to give naughty ones a good clattering in the supermarket .
-
The thrashings I got as a child, would certainly be considered abusive today. However, a light slap on the hand, when all else fails, should still be permissible, imo.
-
The thrashings I got as a child, would certainly be considered abusive today. However, a light slap on the hand, when all else fails, should still be permissible, imo.
Yes, I know you think being violent to children is acceptable.
-
The thrashings I got as a child, would certainly be considered abusive today. However, a light slap on the hand, when all else fails, should still be permissible, imo.
"Light" as in so light that they don't feel it or light enough as to cause some pain?
-
Yes, I know you think being violent to children is acceptable.
I wouldn't consider a slap on the hand, as long as it doesn't leave a mark, as violence.
-
I wouldn't consider a slap on the hand, as long as it doesn't leave a mark, as violence.
Said the supporter of violrnce to children.
-
Child abuse never did me any harm said the child abuser.
-
I don't see how on earth a light slap on the hand can be termed child abuse, a thrashing like I used to get definitely was, and I do not condone that at all.
-
The first time my ex hit me, I was 29 years old, 6'5', 14 stones. Perfectly able to defend myself, and after all it was just a firm slap of my cheek. It didn't leave a mark, it wasn't particularly sore. And I felt shocked, demeaned, belittled and I had the benefits of knowing that I could defend myself, of understanding what had just happened but it was deeply unpleasant. Why should someone be allowed to do that to a vulnerable child without the ability to defend itself, not necessarily able to understand what it was for?
-
I don't see how on earth a light slap on the hand can be termed child abuse, a thrashing like I used to get definitely was, and I do not condone that at all.
Just because there can be something more violent doesn't mean that hitting a child isn't violence
-
Excellent news - speaking as a Scottish parent of three children and grandparent of four - all raised in Scotland.
Inflicting pain on children for trivial reasons is nauseating and unnecessary.
-
Well we have to agree to differ over the idea of a light slap on the hand being considered as violence, in England and Wales it is permissible, and something I would only have used as a last resort. Our children apparently enjoyed their childhood, so the occasional light slap on the hand obviously didn't cause them any distress. Grounding was considered a much more painful exercise!
-
Well we have to agree to differ over the idea of a light slap on the hand being considered as violence, in England and Wales it is permissible, and something I would only have used as a last resort. Our children apparently enjoyed their childhood, so the occasional light slap on the hand obviously didn't cause them any distress. Grounding was considered a much more painful exercise!
I've enjoyed my life overall but when my ex hit me, it wasn't very painful but it was very distressing and unpleasant. So your argument there doesn't work.
-
I've enjoyed my life overall but when my ex hit me, it wasn't very painful but it was very distressing and unpleasant. So your argument there doesn't work.
Agreed here, although what did physically hurt was when a missile such as a mobile telephone struck me. Fists I could defend myself against.
-
Well we have to agree to differ over the idea of a light slap on the hand being considered as violence, in England and Wales it is permissible, and something I would only have used as a last resort. Our children apparently enjoyed their childhood, so the occasional light slap on the hand obviously didn't cause them any distress.
What did it do then? Was it painful enough to make them notice?
-
The first time my ex hit me, I was 29 years old, 6'5', 14 stones. Perfectly able to defend myself, and after all it was just a firm slap of my cheek. It didn't leave a mark, it wasn't particularly sore. And I felt shocked, demeaned, belittled and I had the benefits of knowing that I could defend myself, of understanding what had just happened but it was deeply unpleasant. Why should someone be allowed to do that to a vulnerable child without the ability to defend itself, not necessarily able to understand what it was for?
I got slapped and caned as a child - I don't remember exactly how I felt about it - a bit shocked, scared, outraged I think - but I do remember most of the time what I did that got me caned and tried to avoid doing it again. I accepted that at the age I was at the time, my parents got to make the decisions (and as an aside it was really useful when I started kick-boxing to have already experienced being hit as a child and built up a slight tolerance to the shock and pain, even if it was a far less shock and pain than you experience in boxing).
Forgetting the cultural morality issue for a moment, isn't the point of slapping a child to make them do what you want quickly when you don't have time to reason with them because of an urgent situation or because you have tried reasoning with them and they won't listen and you don't have time to reason with them again or because they can't be reasoned with because their brains are undeveloped, their impulses uncontrolled etc.
If a child's brain is developed enough to understand that they dislike a slap, it's one way of dissuading them from repeating an action if the consequence is a slap. If the child's brain is not developed enough to equate the slap with the action , then slapping them doesn't work.
On the other hand they might not be dissuaded despite the slap because either you're not allowed to hit them harder or you can't bring yourself to hit them hard enough for it hurt enough to dissuade them. In which case there is no point slapping them and the only way of dealing with a situation is to pick them up and physically remove them from the situation or to stay put but physically restrain them in some way.
That's not the situation with an adult. Or more to the point, an adult with poor impulse control who has the mentality capacity to understand consequences can be sanctioned by other means - you can exclude them from your life temporarily by walking away and leaving them to it, exclude them from your life permanently, call the police, sanction them with a caution, fines and prison. None of which you can do with a young child whom you have to legally supervise.
From a morality perspective, of course governments have the right to change the definition of what is morally acceptable by outlawing slapping. IMO some of the mistakes parents make is not spending enough time talking and having fun interacting with their kids, not providing enough structure and routine and not sanctioning their kids consistently enough in non-physical ways, even if it upsets them, in order to teach them what is acceptable behaviour and to teach them to cope with not getting their own way.
-
I don't believe in hitting people, the vulnerable all the more so.
I don't see the point on an adult with poor impulse control is relevant here. You seem to be placing them as the 'hitter' in the place of the person being hit, but I may be wrong as it didn't seem clear.
As to what consists of good parenting as a whole, maybe another thread but here it feels like a derail.
-
I don't believe in hitting people, the vulnerable all the more so.
I don't see the point on an adult with poor impulse control is relevant here. You seem to be placing them as the 'hitter' in the place of the person being hit, but I may be wrong as it didn't seem clear.
As to what consists of good parenting as a whole, maybe another thread but here it feels like a derail.
I meant the adult with poor impulse control is just someone who is behaving in a way you don't like - could be shouting and causing a scene, grabbing stuff, throwing stuff on the floor, running away and into the road, taking something of yours or something dangerous to them that they have been told not to touch.
The kind of impulsive things a young child does.
I don't think hitting children is a good idea but it can be handy if it works and isn't excessive. I don't believe in hitting people I can walk away from whereby I can leave them to it.
-
I meant the adult with poor impulse control is just someone who is behaving in a way you don't like - could be shouting and causing a scene, grabbing stuff, throwing stuff on the floor, running away and into the road, taking something of yours or something dangerous to them that they have been told not to touch.
The kind of impulsive things a young child does.
I don't think hitting children is a good idea but it can be handy if it works and isn't excessive. I don't believe in hitting people I can walk away from whereby I can leave them to it.
still don't get the adult point. Are you suggesting that we hit people in mental asylums?
How do you know if it works to hit a child? What if the child does feel humiliated and betrayed as I did when my ex hit me, despite being perfectly capable of defending myself?
-
Very glad Scotland has banned smacking. What has surprised me on this thread is to learn that it isn't banned in England and Wales, for some reason I thought it was. Well it should be. I was never smacked, my parents are gentle people, slow to anger & I never smacked my kids, it wouldn't have occurred to me. It's unnecessary. You often hear people say it never did them any harm but I don't believe that.
-
still don't get the adult point. Are you suggesting that we hit people in mental asylums?
How do you know if it works to hit a child? What if the child does feel humiliated and betrayed as I did when my ex hit me, despite being perfectly capable of defending myself?
sounds like you need to grow a pair ,pal.
-
still don't get the adult point. Are you suggesting that we hit people in mental asylums?
No because they don't have the mental capacity to understand - that's why I said if a child did not have the mental capacity to link getting hit with the behaviour, and more importantly even if they understood and still refused to comply despite being hit, then there is no point hitting them as you are just taking out your frustrations on them rather than it working to correct an unwanted behaviour.
How do you know if it works to hit a child? What if the child does feel humiliated and betrayed as I did when my ex hit me, despite being perfectly capable of defending myself?
I don't know for every child - I can only talk from personal experience.
I remember being 6 or 7 and being obsessed with digital watches - they were new and fascinating - and I kept trying to play with a brand new man's digital watch that my mother kept in a drawer - my parents had won it in a raffle but they had made the mistake of writing my name on the raffle ticket, so I considered it mine regardless of anything my mother said. I could not control my impulse to sneak into my parents' room, open the drawer and play with the watch, no matter what was said to me. Once I got caned for it, i decided the watch wasn't worth the pain so I never touched it again. I probably felt humiliated, maybe even betrayed but I figured my parents had a right to enforce their rules if I refused to listen. I don't remember the pain, humiliation or feelings of betrayal lasting more than a few hours tops.
There is other stuff my parents did or didn't do that bothers me a bit to this day, though I am philosophical about it, but I don't think badly of any of the physical chastisements.
-
Very glad Scotland has banned smacking. What has surprised me on this thread is to learn that it isn't banned in England and Wales, for some reason I thought it was. Well it should be. I was never smacked, my parents are gentle people, slow to anger & I never smacked my kids, it wouldn't have occurred to me. It's unnecessary. You often hear people say it never did them any harm but I don't believe that.
It's hard to define harm.
I don't think I want to be a gentle person or be parented by a gentle person. Just personal preference I guess.
My kids and I rough each other up - not in anger - but it can be fun and I let them hit me really hard - dead legs, punches in the stomach or arm or back but not the face, as it's good conditioning for boxing.
-
No because they don't have the mental capacity to understand - that's why I said if a child did not have the mental capacity to link getting hit with the behaviour, and more importantly even if they understood and still refused to comply despite being hit, then there is no point hitting them as you are just taking out your frustrations on them rather than it working to correct an unwanted behaviour.
I don't know for every child - I can only talk from personal experience.
I remember being 6 or 7 and being obsessed with digital watches - they were new and fascinating - and I kept trying to play with a brand new man's digital watch that my mother kept in a drawer - my parents had won it in a raffle but they had made the mistake of writing my name on the raffle ticket, so I considered it mine regardless of anything my mother said. I could not control my impulse to sneak into my parents' room, open the drawer and play with the watch, no matter what was said to me. Once I got caned for it, i decided the watch wasn't worth the pain so I never touched it again. I probably felt humiliated, maybe even betrayed but I figured my parents had a right to enforce their rules if I refused to listen. I don't remember the pain, humiliation or feelings of betrayal lasting more than a few hours tops.
There is other stuff my parents did or didn't do that bothers me a bit to this day, though I am philosophical about it, but I don't think badly of any of the physical chastisements.
The problem here is that is a post hoc analysis of whether it caused harm in a particular case. It's useless for deciding what laws should do, and given that we stop adults hitting each other it seems way more important that we stop adults hitting children. The 'it nevety did me any harm' is both a subjective opinion that may well be wrong and not a great model for public policy.
-
sounds like you need to grow a pair ,pal.
That's a dumb comment. I would feel humiliated, betrayed and really hurt if a boyfriend or husband slapped me. It's not a relationship in which I think the other person has a right to hit you...unless you hit them first.
-
sounds like you need to grow a pair ,pal.
Yes, having courage is hitting small children, obviously. This whole attitude to violence is revealing.
-
The problem here is that is a post hoc analysis of whether it caused harm in a particular case. It's useless for deciding what laws should do, and given that we stop adults hitting each other it seems way more important that we stop adults hitting children. The 'it nevety did me any harm' is both a subjective opinion that may well be wrong and not a great model for public policy.
Yes - as a public policy I can understand why they would ban smacking, but I think as a public policy matter it is dangerous to worry too much about hurt feelings.
-
Yes - as a public policy I can understand why they would ban smacking, but I think as a public policy matter it is dangerous to worry too much about hurt feelings.
I don't think it's about worrying about hurt feelings, and would suggest that that's a trivialising choice of language. Trauma is hurt feelings.
I think the public policy us that we shouldn't allow violence and we shouldn't allow it on the most vulnerable in society in particular.
-
Yes, having courage is hitting small children, obviously. This whole attitude to violence is revealing.
I have three grown up children and as a single dad for many years , I never hit any of them, ever.
-
I have three grown up children and as a single dad for many years , I never hit any of them, ever.
Applaud, absolutely genuine.
-
I've always thought that the best response to the "Well, I was smacked and it never did me any harm" is to say that thinking adults hitting children is acceptable is evidence of harm in itself.
-
I've always thought that the best response to the "Well, I was smacked and it never did me any harm" is to say that thinking adults hitting children is acceptable is evidence of harm in itself.
My brother was killed for walking on the flower beds but he knew that was the punishment.
-
My brother was killed for walking on the flower beds but he knew that was the punishment.
eh?
-
eh?
'Curse of the Claw' Ripping Yarns
-
'Curse of the Claw' Ripping Yarns
pardon my ignorance ;)
-
I think this should herald a harsher attitude to violence in society with 5 years added to any sentence of violence.
-
'Curse of the Claw' Ripping Yarns
"They had my sister imprisoned for putting too much butter on her scone, and my younger brother David was killed for walking on the flower beds"
The best episode of the series. I thought the best small touch was the flies following Uncle Jack's coffin in single file.
-
"They had my sister imprisoned for putting too much butter on her scone, and my younger brother David was killed for walking on the flower beds"
The best episode of the series. I thought the best small touch was the flies following Uncle Jack's coffin in single file.
Other than the original Tompkinson's Schooldays, I would agree. I liked Golden Gordon very much
-
I have three grown up children and as a single dad for many years , I never hit any of them, ever.
Quite right!
-
I don't think it's about worrying about hurt feelings, and would suggest that that's a trivialising choice of language. Trauma is hurt feelings.
I think the public policy us that we shouldn't allow violence and we shouldn't allow it on the most vulnerable in society in particular.
Having never felt traumatised, I wouldn't know. It's not really part of my vocabulary and hopefully my kids haven't picked it up from their friends as part of their vocabulary.
Since we live in world where violence is a distinct possibility I would be worried if my children felt traumatised by being hit when it doesn't even leave a mark. I do think that is trivial. I doubt they would be traumatised, having been hit many times in kick-boxing training. I suspect they feel more traumatised by books they read, films they watch and when I tell them they are not allowed to socialise, take their phone away and stop TV privileges.
-
Having never felt traumatised, I wouldn't know. It's not really part of my vocabulary and hopefully my kids haven't picked it up from their friends as part of their vocabulary.
Since we live in world where violence is a distinct possibility I would be worried if my children felt traumatised by being hit when it doesn't even leave a mark. I do think that is trivial. I doubt they would be traumatised, having been hit many times in kick-boxing training. I suspect they feel more traumatised by books they read, films they watch and when I tell them they are not allowed to socialise, take their phone away and stop TV privileges.
Everyone lives in a world where violence is a possibility. I have no understanding what relevance that has to hitting children.
-
I am wondering that too.
Regarding being traumatised, I doubt anyone goes through life without some trauma even if they don't call it that.
Being deliberately hit, even if it doesn't hurt much, is traumatic, more so than if you fall over and sprain your ankle. It's shocking and the idea that a big person is allowed do that to a little one is particularly so.
-
OK OK OK !
No violence, no smacking, kids!
Just will someone please tell me where non-violence. a lack of smacking, has got us?
Kids in the streets who, if you are in their way as they walk along will shove you into the road and laugh at you.
Report it to the police and you are as like as not to get a right seeing to the next time the kids see you.
Kids these days have absolutely nothing to worry about in the way of paying for bad, even atrocious behavior; discipline is a word, when related to under 18's, has disappeared from the vocabulary.
Hell, I haven't got an answer but the way things are now someone somewhere needs to find a way of discilpling under 18's and I, for one don't give a fuck what it is as long as it works 'cos whatever it is we have now sure as Hell doesn't.
-
Never got why anyone thinks that making your own child afraid of what you will do is remotely sensible or desirable.
-
Agreed.
Owl, the sort of young people you are talking about usually have been subjected to violent discipline in the home.
-
Agreed.
Owl, the sort of young people you are talking about usually have been subjected to violent discipline in the home.
Back-up for this statement please - these kids are on the streets from schools-out 'til past midnight - some of them still in schoool blazers.
-
OK OK OK !
No violence, no smacking, kids!
Just will someone please tell me where non-violence. a lack of smacking, has got us?
Kids in the streets who, if you are in their way as they walk along will shove you into the road and laugh at you.
Report it to the police and you are as like as not to get a right seeing to the next time the kids see you.
Kids these days have absolutely nothing to worry about in the way of paying for bad, even atrocious behavior; discipline is a word, when related to under 18's, has disappeared from the vocabulary.
Hell, I haven't got an answer but the way things are now someone somewhere needs to find a way of discilpling under 18's and I, for one don't give a fuck what it is as long as it works 'cos whatever it is we have now sure as Hell doesn't.
Given that it is currently still legal to hit children, suggesting that this behaviour you say is happening, has something to do with not being hit seems odd.
-
Never got why anyone thinks that making your own child afraid of what you will do is remotely sensible or desirable.
And why teaching a child that violent conduct is OK on occasion is a good thing.
-
OK OK OK !
No violence, no smacking, kids!
Just will someone please tell me where non-violence. a lack of smacking, has got us?
Kids in the streets who, if you are in their way as they walk along will shove you into the road and laugh at you.
Report it to the police and you are as like as not to get a right seeing to the next time the kids see you.
Kids these days have absolutely nothing to worry about in the way of paying for bad, even atrocious behavior; discipline is a word, when related to under 18's, has disappeared from the vocabulary.
Hell, I haven't got an answer but the way things are now someone somewhere needs to find a way of discilpling under 18's and I, for one don't give a fuck what it is as long as it works 'cos whatever it is we have now sure as Hell doesn't.
Yes, people discover that violence works independently of having experienced it but hey, we are back into falling short territory
-
Yes, people discover that violence works independently of having experienced it but hey, we are back into falling short territory
No, we are having a discussion about banning smacking.
-
OK OK OK !
No violence, no smacking, kids!
Just will someone please tell me where non-violence. a lack of smacking, has got us?
Kids in the streets who, if you are in their way as they walk along will shove you into the road and laugh at you.
Report it to the police and you are as like as not to get a right seeing to the next time the kids see you.
Kids these days have absolutely nothing to worry about in the way of paying for bad, even atrocious behavior; discipline is a word, when related to under 18's, has disappeared from the vocabulary.
Hell, I haven't got an answer but the way things are now someone somewhere needs to find a way of discilpling under 18's and I, for one don't give a fuck what it is as long as it works 'cos whatever it is we have now sure as Hell doesn't.
you have certainly got some interesting ideas there and I tend to agree with you .
I have observed kids and parents while being out and about where they are allowed to do what ever they want while the parents just ignore them .
As an example I happened to be on a railway platform out in the sticks and the only way to communicate with the train company was by use of a metal box on a wall and you could press a button for help and a voice would answer.
Three kids were running about and pressing the button in turn and the voice kept answering . The parents did nothing to stop them , so I did . in not a very pleasant tone . They stopped . The parents then took notice and also responded as if I had chastised them too.
I would never have allowed my kids to behave like that so a smack was never required .
-
you have certainly got some interesting ideas there and I tend to agree with you .
I have observed kids and parents while being out and about where they are allowed to do what ever they want while the parents just ignore them .
As an example I happened to be on a railway platform out in the sticks and the only way to communicate with the train company was by use of a metal box on a wall and you could press a button for help and a voice would answer.
Three kids were running about and pressing the button in turn and the voice kept answering . The parents did nothing to stop them , so I did . in not a very pleasant tone . They stopped . The parents then took notice and also responded as if I had chastised them too.
I would never have allowed my kids to behave like that so a smack was never required .
There is now no way to discipline a child, legal way, that is.
A talking to is "verbal abuse".
A slap is "assault".
Sending them to their room or confining them to the house is "illegal imprisonment".
These definitions were provided by a Child Protection Unit officer at a police and Social Services meeting on 'Crime and Public Safety on the streets!
-
It’s seird but I’ve never felt the need to discipline a child through punishment. It’s about teaching understanding and putting things right. So a ‘talking to’ is actually explaining what is wrong, listening, agreeing or otherwise and deciding what to do next.
-
It’s seird but I’ve never felt the need to discipline a child through punishment. It’s about teaching understanding and putting things right. So a ‘talking to’ is actually explaining what is wrong, listening, agreeing or otherwise and deciding what to do next.
yes, in an ideal world but not all kids are born with equal intelligence levels .
-
There is now no way to discipline a child, legal way, that is.
A talking to is "verbal abuse".
A slap is "assault".
Sending them to their room or confining them to the house is "illegal imprisonment".
These definitions were provided by a Child Protection Unit officer at a police and Social Services meeting on 'Crime and Public Safety on the streets!
I don't doubt your comments but how do you know this , were you involved?
-
yes, in an ideal world but not all kids are born with equal intelligence levels .
Same goes for some parents though.
-
Same goes for some parents though.
and there you have it my friend , we are saturated in cannon fodder.
-
yes, in an ideal world but not all kids are born with equal intelligence levels .
It’s not necessarily about intelligence but warmth and empathy, and demonstrating the right way to do things - kids learn from what we do far more than from what we say. If parents lack empathy, can’t demonstrate right from wrong and/or neglect the child, no ‘discipline’ in any form is going to make a great deal of difference.
-
Everyone lives in a world where violence is a possibility. I have no understanding what relevance that has to hitting children.
I think if a child can't cope with a trivial slap that doesn't leave a mark, they are not going to be much use to anyone if they have to deal with real violence. I think one of the jobs of a parent is to prepare their children for the real world, not cocoon them, give them a false sense of reality and leave them unprepared.
I think the reality is that you could get threatened or actually hit and being frozen with shock or feeling traumatised if that happens isn't helpful to anyone.
-
I think if a child can't cope with a trivial slap that doesn't leave a mark, they are not going to be much use to anyone if they have to deal with real violence. I think one of the jobs of a parent is to prepare their children for the real world, not cocoon them, give them a false sense of reality and leave them unprepared.
I think the reality is that you could get threatened or actually hit and being frozen with shock or feeling traumatised if that happens isn't helpful to anyone.
So in order to avoid someone being traumatised by being hit, you hit them. Mmm....
-
I am wondering that too.
Regarding being traumatised, I doubt anyone goes through life without some trauma even if they don't call it
that.
Being deliberately hit, even if it doesn't hurt much, is traumatic, more so than if you fall over and sprain your ankle. It's shocking and the idea that a big person is allowed do that to a little one is particularly so.
I don't think it is traumatic or if we are describing it as traumatic, then clearly trauma means something trivial. I think the only trauma you feel is the shock at the realisation that someone is stopping you from doing what you want because you don't like the consequences when you do it.
When you fall over there is blood or marked skin - not the same as being hit. But yes, there isn't the frustration that someone else is physically stopping you from doing what you want to do. When I physically restrained my daughter from getting up, age 2, she cried loudly in sheer frustration. That worked very well as a punishment, if I had time to physically restrain her, but it did take 9 months of naughty step or physical restraint for the message to sink into her head that if I threatened it, I would follow through.
When I slapped her hand age 2 something, there was some tears but when I told her if she did it again she would get another slap she held her other hand up defiantly for a slap. I slapped it and she put it behind her back and held her first hand up for a slap, I slapped that hand, she put it behind her back and held her other hand up for a slap. I slapped it but as I had no intention of hitting her harder or indefinitely I then tried something else as a punishment, but I remember being impressed with her defiance - that was the first time I had slapped her.
But despite this show of defiance, when threatened with a slap on another occasion, she complied - so clearly she didn't like it and decided whatever she wanted to do wasn't worth getting a slap for. So it works.
-
So in order to avoid someone being traumatised by being hit, you hit them. Mmm....
Yes - it certainly works in boxing.
-
Yes - it certainly works in boxing.
This logic is on a par with 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it'
-
Never got why anyone thinks that making your own child afraid of what you will do is remotely sensible or desirable.
Fear works. It's trivial fear.
My kids are more afraid of spiders and other stuff than they are of me. They've told me that. My daughter refused to go into the bathroom because of a tiny spider high up on the wall and I shouted at her and ordered her to go in and stop being so silly as she was running late for school, and when she refused I said who are you more afraid of, me or the spider, and she said the spider. So I had to go in and get rid of it before she would go have a shower.
-
This logic is on a par with 'In order to save the village, we had to destroy it'
If you think that a trivial slap is the same as destroying a village, ok. Can't see it myself.
Also - in boxing you get hit while training so that you can cope with getting hit.
-
If you think that a trivial slap is the same as destroying a village, ok. Can't see it myself.
Also - in boxing you get hit while training so that you can cope with getting hit.
Post didn't say but I suppose you like your little amusements
-
Fear works. It's trivial fear.
My kids are more afraid of spiders and other stuff than they are of me. They've told me that. My daughter refused to go into the bathroom because of a tiny spider high up on the wall and I shouted at her and ordered her to go in and stop being so silly as she was running late for school, and when she refused I said who are you more afraid of, me or the spider, and she said the spider. So I had to go in and get rid of it before she would go have a shower.
You aren’t understanding the difference between single point and complex trauma. Repeated small scale trauma has as big an impact as a large traumatic event, maybe more. The effects of repeat trauma very often don’t manifest until later in life when the person feels ‘safe’ enough to feel what they feel.
-
I think if a child can't cope with a trivial slap that doesn't leave a mark, they are not going to be much use to anyone if they have to deal with real violence. I think one of the jobs of a parent is to prepare their children for the real world, not cocoon them, give them a false sense of reality and leave them unprepared.
I think the reality is that you could get threatened or actually hit and being frozen with shock or feeling traumatised if that happens isn't helpful to anyone.
No, the reality is that kids are supposed to think that there are two people in the world that they can trust, and trust not to hurt, shame or make them afraid - their parents. Your use of violence opens them up to choosing abusive relationships in future because they’ve been taught that ‘trivial’ fear and violence are a part of close relationships.
-
No, the reality is that kids are supposed to think that there are two people in the world that they can trust, and trust not to hurt, shame or make them afraid - their parents. Your use of violence opens them up to choosing abusive relationships in future because they’ve been taught that ‘trivial’ fear and violence are a part of close relationships.
I disagree that that should be what children are supposed to think. I prefer it if they use their childhood to actively figure out if it they love me, what love and trust means, and if it works for them to have a relationship with me rather than for them to have unrealistic assumptions about personal relationships.
ETA: I'm not sure what you mean by using violence opens them up to abusive relationships. Once children are old enough to reason with and there is less requirement for immediate action as they can link the delayed punishment of being grounded or having something taken away to their earlier action or behaviour, slapping becomes a pointless thing to do. Other consequences are more effective but still not time-consuming to implement. Plus I agree that the older you get the more autonomous you feel from your parents, therefore the more humiliated you feel by being physically punished especially as it doesn't particularly hurt - so I think slapping an older child - anyone age 7 or over - is not effective.
An adult is not responsible for another adult and is not expected to control the other adult - so they can walk away from the relationship rather than slap another adult. I would call the police if my husband ever slapped me and I would expect him to call the police if I ever slapped him. I don't equate us being hit as children by our respective parents with us having the right to hit each other in an adult relationship, when we have the option of walking away if the other person behaves in a way that makes life unpleasant.
I am also less interested in my children feeling hurt, shamed or afraid of a trivial slap and more interested in them knowing that I expect them to co-operate or there will be consequences. If the slap does not work as a consequence then I have no interest in using it.
My children were aware they could always take their chances with social services and the care system if they felt they could not cope with the trauma of consequences at home.
I'm curious to know how this smacking ban would be enforced - if I went to prison for a trivial slap, which is fine with both me and my husband, is the public policy logic that the children would be less traumatised by being brought up in care and not going to a private school while we are in prison rather than living at home and going to a private school and receiving a trivial slap?
-
You aren’t understanding the difference between single point and complex trauma. Repeated small scale trauma has as big an impact as a large traumatic event, maybe more. The effects of repeat trauma very often don’t manifest until later in life when the person feels ‘safe’ enough to feel what they feel.
I think you feel trauma based on your perspective - there aren't objective feelings that exist separate from your conscious or sub-conscious thoughts about an incident or incidents. I didn't feel trauma thinking about my childhood because I was aware that my parents cared about me, were generally fair-minded and nice though there were many times they could not see it my way, but then again I wasn't expecting them to make life perfect for me - I accepted bumps and friction as part of the deal that goes with the love and self-sacrifice and having to live in a house with people who had a different perspective from me and stressful lives.
Regarding possible future trauma, if I have to choose between gaining co-operation or obedience now and worrying about their feelings as adults, I choose co-operation and obedience now.
My view is that if they can't cope with the trauma of remembering trivial slaps as children once they feel safe enough to think about it as adults, they will have to do whatever they need to in order to help themselves as adults so they feel better.
-
I think you feel trauma based on your perspective - there aren't objective feelings that exist separate from your conscious or sub-conscious thoughts about an incident or incidents. I didn't feel trauma thinking about my childhood because I was aware that my parents cared about me, were generally fair-minded and nice though there were many times they could not see it my way, but then again I wasn't expecting them to make life perfect for me - I accepted bumps and friction as part of the deal that goes with the love and self-sacrifice and having to live in a house with people who had a different perspective from me and stressful lives.
Regarding possible future trauma, if I have to choose between gaining co-operation or obedience now and worrying about their feelings as adults, I choose co-operation and obedience now.
My view is that if they can't cope with the trauma of remembering trivial slaps as children once they feel safe enough to think about it as adults, they will have to do whatever they need to in order to help themselves as adults so they feel better.
You can justify your behaviour by justifying your own parents' but that just normalises abuse, however 'trivial' you believe it to be.
-
You can justify your behaviour by justifying your own parents' but that just normalises abuse, however 'trivial' you believe it to be.
My mind turns to Larkin
-
You can justify your behaviour by justifying your own parents' but that just normalises abuse, however 'trivial' you believe it to be.
I am justifying nothing more than it is what it is - if my kids don't want to waste their time feeling traumatised, they have the option of viewing their experiences from a different perspective, consequently not feeling traumatised and then spending their time doing something that is more appealing to them than feeling traumatised.
-
So if people are traumatised, they choose to feel that way and it's their fault.
-
My mind turns to Larkin
Indeed. Except people have a biological urge to procreate and children are a result of that natural, biological urge so not sure many people will take him up on that last line, especially over some trivial abuse such as a slap that doesn't leave a mark.
-
'Trivial abuse'?
-
So if people are traumatised, they choose to feel that way and it's their fault.
That's your generalisation, not mine.
What I wrote was if children feel traumatised over one / many slaps that don't leave a mark, they can change their perspective. If they are unable to change their perspective, then they have no option but to remain traumatised.
-
Indeed. Except people have a biological urge to procreate and children are a result of that natural, biological urge so not sure many people will take him up on that last line, especially over some trivial abuse such as a slap that doesn't leave a mark.
You do know that simply repeating "trivial" isn't an argument? And that by putting it in you are indulging in the begging the question fallacy?
-
That's your generalisation, not mine.
What I wrote was if children feel traumatised over one / many slaps that don't leave a mark, they can change their perspective. If they are unable to change their perspective, then they have no option but to remain traumatised.
Thank you for repeating yourself and showing I was correct in what was a paraphrase.
-
'Trivial abuse'?
Yes - to me being slapped as a child, when it doesn't leave a mark is trivial. You wanted to call it abuse. I put the two descriptions together.
-
Thank you for repeating yourself and showing I was correct in what was a paraphrase.
You're welcome. I don't think it applies to all trauma - but if you want to think yourself correct, give yourself a nice little pat on the back and a gold star.
-
I don't doubt your comments but how do you know this , were you involved?
Involved? Yes, I was, and am. I am part of the local Safer Neighbourhoods initiative.
-
You're welcome. I don't think it applies to all trauma - but if you want to think yourself correct, give yourself a nice little pat on the back and a gold star.
So what trauma does it apply to?
-
So what trauma does it apply to?
Trivial trauma e.g. the trauma of being slapped as a child where it didn't leave a mark. Or the trauma of having your phone taken away for a week. I'm not allowed to do that to another adult as well - maybe they should introduce a bill to criminalise parents who take their children's phones away and leave them bereft and traumatised.
-
Trivial trauma e.g. the trauma of being slapped as a child where it didn't leave a mark. Or the trauma of having your phone taken away for a week.
So a subjective claim again using your use of begging the question. Ah well.
-
So a subjective claim again using your use of begging the question. Ah well.
Relationships and perspectives tend to be subjective.
-
Relationships and perspectives tend to be subjective.
Indeed, which is why making objective statements about trauma would be foolish.
-
Indeed, which is why making objective statements about trauma would be foolish.
What objective statement - I didn't realise I had made any. My perspective is that describing something as a trauma is an individual's choice of words - there is no objective measure of trauma. But if people would prefer I call it trauma, I don't mind using that term.
My perspective is that describing the trauma as trivial is very much subjective. Which is why I wrote that if my kids don't want to waste their time feeling traumatised, they have the option of changing their perspective. I think that if they feel the trauma was trivial they would not be particularly affected by it and would not spend a lot of time dwelling on it. And then I wrote if they were unable to change their perspective, they have no option but to feel traumatised.
For example, I don't think about being caned - except when this topic is brought up - and then I can't really remember the caning. I do have a vague memory of the fear just before hand though - I remember it as similar to the feeling I get when I watch a scary movie or the feeling as you are climbing up on a roller coaster just before the big drop. Not something I would choose to describe as traumatising - it was just scary at the time.
-
You made a statement about what trauma could be got over, and have been using the term trivial as continued begging the question and an objective claim.
-
It’s seird but I’ve never felt the need to discipline a child through punishment. It’s about teaching understanding and putting things right. So a ‘talking to’ is actually explaining what is wrong, listening, agreeing or otherwise and deciding what to do next.
Ok firstly I've seen parents explaining while their child's eyes glaze over and then seen them listening to their child say " I don't care, I want...." and then I've finally seen them saying to their child "do it because I say so" once the explaining hasn't worked.
Secondly there isn't always time to explain if you want an immediate stop to a behaviour.
Thirdly, why would a child have your perspective and agree with it when they have a short attention span and limited patience?
-
You made a statement about what trauma could be got over, and have been using the term trivial as continued begging the question and an objective claim.
I used the term trivial because you brought it up , and I used it by saying I think it is trivial. See #40.
I have also said that if my kids don't find it trivial and can't get over it, they will have to remain traumatised. All sounds very subjective to me - but if you want to believe it is objective or foolish, be my guest.
-
I used the term trivial because you brought it up , and I used it by saying I think it is trivial. See #40.
I have also said that if my kids don't find it trivial and can't get over it, they will have to remain traumatised. All sounds very subjective to me - but if you want to believe it is objective or foolish, be my guest.
Why are you misrepresenting what was said, again?
-
Why are you misrepresenting what was said, again?
Is that your stock answer / get-out clause when you get too tired to continue typing or have lost interest and can't be bothered to elaborate?
-
Is that your stock answer / get-out clause when you get too tired to continue typing or have lost interest and can't be bothered to elaborate?
No, it's my stock answer when people misrepresent things as you have done twice on this thread.
-
No, it's my stock answer when people misrepresent things as you have done twice on this thread.
I wonder if she might say , sorry I was wrong and now I cant get out of it
otherwise she is one strange person!!!!!
-
Involved? Yes, I was, and am. I am part of the local Safer Neighbourhoods initiative.
we are doomed mate :( :( :(
-
No, it's my stock answer when people misrepresent things as you have done twice on this thread.
Ok. Whatever floats your boat.
-
Ok. Whatever floats your boat.
flounces off!
-
My mind turns to Larkin
mine's turned to mush!
-
flounces off!
Haha - no - there was nothing to engage with or discuss. But thanks for the attention - please do a similar fanfare each time I log on (flounces on) and log off (flounces off).
I'll let you know if I want the fanfare changed. Good boy.
-
I don't think it is traumatic or if we are describing it as traumatic, then clearly trauma means something trivial. I think the only trauma you feel is the shock at the realisation that someone is stopping you from doing what you want because you don't like the consequences when you do it.
When you fall over there is blood or marked skin - not the same as being hit. But yes, there isn't the frustration that someone else is physically stopping you from doing what you want to do. When I physically restrained my daughter from getting up, age 2, she cried loudly in sheer frustration. That worked very well as a punishment, if I had time to physically restrain her, but it did take 9 months of naughty step or physical restraint for the message to sink into her head that if I threatened it, I would follow through.
When I slapped her hand age 2 something, there was some tears but when I told her if she did it again she would get another slap she held her other hand up defiantly for a slap. I slapped it and she put it behind her back and held her first hand up for a slap, I slapped that hand, she put it behind her back and held her other hand up for a slap. I slapped it but as I had no intention of hitting her harder or indefinitely I then tried something else as a punishment, but I remember being impressed with her defiance - that was the first time I had slapped her.
But despite this show of defiance, when threatened with a slap on another occasion, she complied - so clearly she didn't like it and decided whatever she wanted to do wasn't worth getting a slap for. So it works.
What on earth are you doing slapping the hand of a two year old, who is not much more than a baby?
Your post 88 is also very revealing - and surprising from you, from the little we know of you on this forum. I certainly never expected to read it.
(Owl, I will come back to you later, Busy now.)
-
What on earth are you doing slapping the hand of a two year old, who is not much more than a baby?
Your post 88 is also very revealing - and surprising from you, from the little we know of you on this forum. I certainly never expected to read it.
(Owl, I will come back to you later, Busy now.)
Would you have been any less outraged if she was 3 or 4 or 5 or 6?
My posts are intended to be revealing.
She was 2 something and definitely no baby. Could have been 3 - it's hard to remember. Anyway she remembers the incident and finds it funny now, age 13 - she is impressed with her defiance.
She also remembers being put on the naughty step for a minute and a half when she was 2 and me sitting next to her and how she would lounge across my lap for the first minute or so smirking, saying "good I feel like a rest" and then when I didn't react she would get upset about the punishment for the last 20 seconds, just when I was ready to give up and was wondering which one of us was going to end up in charge in this relationship.
She used to say a lot of stuff that was hard not to laugh at - she was speaking full sentences by the time she was 2. I like my kids most of the time - they are fun to talk to, witty/ sarcastic, can cope with banter, don't need mollycoddling...apart from spiders and the dark sometimes, but I'm working on that.
I'm not on here to seek approval - it's fine if you don't like my views. I don't like some of the values in the cultures my kids are exposed to.
-
Gabriella
Which cultures are they ?
-
We are doomed mate :( :( :(
That prospect does not exactly cause me any problems whatsoever as, so far as I am aware, you are no mate of mine.
At least we are trying to do something about the situation which, whatever it might be, seems to be a bloody sight more that you can say for yourself.
Sniping from the sidelines seems to be more your style.
The local Safer Neighbourhood Teams are working to try and alleviate the problems caused by the kids around here who consider that the inability of their parents to discipline/punish them for thier behaviour extends to the rest of the world and to criminal activity especially as they are quite adept at using the threat of and the infliction of violence to deter anyone from reporting their activities or identifying them to the Police.
It is working - a few weeks ago two of the nastiest of our local thuigs were sent down for four and five years each for a series of crimes. They were rather unpleasantly surprised when they realised that, as some of the charges referred to crimes committed as eighteen year olds they were going to a adult prison.
They are also now looking at more time for threats to kill against the judge, the prosecuting barrister and their own legal team for failing to get them off!
It's not a lot but it is a start.
-
That prospect does not exactly cause me any problems whatsoever as, so far as I am aware, you are no mate of mine.
At least we are trying to do something about the situation which, whatever it might be, seems to be a bloody sight more that you can say for yourself.
Sniping from the sidelines seems to be more your style.
The local Safer Neighbourhood Teams are working to try and alleviate the problems caused by the kids around here who consider that the inability of their parents to discipline/punish them for thier behaviour extends to the rest of the world and to criminal activity especially as they are quite adept at using the threat of and the infliction of violence to deter anyone from reporting their activities or identifying them to the Police.
It is working - a few weeks ago two of the nastiest of our local thuigs were sent down for four and five years each for a series of crimes. They were rather unpleasantly surprised when they realised that, as some of the charges referred to crimes committed as eighteen year olds they were going to a adult prison.
They are also now looking at more time for threats to kill against the judge, the prosecuting barrister and their own legal team for failing to get them off!
It's not a lot but it is a start.
the first three paragraphs ; I have no idea what youre
On about
-
the first three paragraphs ; I have no idea what youre
On about
Which says far more about you than it does me!
-
Walter #105
. . . and it should be -
The first three paragraphs; I have no idea what you're on about.
-
Walter #105
. . . and it should be -
The first three paragraphs; I have no idea what you're on about.
Sorry NS - I borrowed your pedant cap for a few moments without asking your permission!
-
Walter #105
. . . and it should be -
The first three paragraphs; I have no idea what you're on about.
holdin and typing on an iPhone with one hand whilst laying on your side being injected with pain relief does not lend it's self to full concentration
I still don't know what you're on about though .
-
My view is that if kids experience violence in their home they will grow up thinking violence is acceptable.
-
Sorry NS - I borrowed your pedant cap for a few moments without asking your permission!
If you are going to borrow it, be accurate, I don't comment on grammar. ;)
-
holdin and typing on an iPhone with one hand whilst laying on your side being injected with pain relief does not lend it's self to full concentration
Pedantry is fun.
Using one hand to simultaneously hold and type on an iPhone, whilst being injected with pain relief, does not lend itself to full concentration.
-
Pedantry is fun.
Using one hand to simultaneously hold and type on an iPhone, whilst being injected with pain relief, does not lend itself to full concentration.
It is fun. I suppose the jury's out on split infinitives. ;)
-
Gabriella
Which cultures are they ?
All of them. There are bits I don't like in all the cultures my kids are exposed to.
-
My view is that if kids experience violence in their home they will grow up thinking violence is acceptable.
I think violence is acceptable in certain situations. If the need arose, I would hope my kids would be violent. That's one of the reasons they learned kick-boxing - so they stood more of a chance of their violence being effective rather than ineffective.
-
It is fun. I suppose the jury's out on split infinitives. ;)
Where split infinitives are concerned ... to boldly go ...
-
I think violence is acceptable in certain situations. If the need arose, I would hope my kids would be violent. That's one of the reasons they learned kick-boxing - so they stood more of a chance of their violence being effective rather than ineffective.
Self defence is OK. If someone attacked me I'd bash them with my handbag!
Owlswing, I was thinking over what you were saying about menacing schoolchildren. I experienced that some years ago, on two occasions, on neither of which did I have my car. Once I picked up my cousin's boy from school, he was about seven, and we walked around the corner to the 'bus stop. A lot of older boys from his school also arrived en masse at the 'bus stop and when the 'bus came along they surged towards it, regardless of people who had been waiting there before them, and pushed their way onto it. One or two of the people waiting there said it happened like that regularly. They had absolutely no consideration.
Anyway I heard the headteacher received complaints and actually came out to spy, lurking in a shop doorway, then he blasted them in assembly. Quite right too.
The other time I had been to see someone in hospital and went by 'bus because of difficulty parking. On the way home the bus stopped opposite a school and a lot of kids got on. A bit further along it stopped outside a girls' school (locally known as St Trinians), quite a few girls boarded the bus and proceeded to attack the kids from the other school with water bombs and eggs! The bus was a mess, even the driver was egged. He stopped the bus and said he was fed up with it happening nearly every day! It was quite shocking. I don't know what happened after that - the school is different now, amalgamated with another school and has a lot of Chinese boarders who are very well behaved.
I think teachers, especially department heads and head teachers, as well as parents, should be proactive in ensuring better behaviour. Sometimes kids get carried away in a crowd, they just don't think, don't realise how intimidating they can be.
-
My daughter was unable to understand right from wrong. Unable to recognise danger she could easily reach out for a coal in the fire. The specialist in her life said when she was older we would have to slap her on her hand if she went to do anything which could harm her. It was not the danger which would eventually sink in but the knowledge of pain when she attempted such an action and it would deter it. We did not have coal fires thank God.
There is smacking and their is deterrents.