Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Science and Technology => Topic started by: Sriram on November 07, 2017, 05:37:54 AM
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Hi everyone,
Here is an article about how some scientists (women) are trying to highlight the contributions of their own small indigenous communities in understanding of the Natural World.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-41887971
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Indigenous peoples around the world have understood the stars, tides and local ecosystems for hundreds of years but experts say their insights have often been overlooked. Now some female scientists are striving to highlight their achievements and collect the scientific heritage of their communities before it disappears.
From Australia to Canada, detailed scientific knowledge of the natural world has been handed down through generations via stories and oral tradition.
But this information is rarely formalised or even distributed beyond small communities.
And its significance within the wider culture of science goes largely unacknowledged, argues Australian astronomer Karlie Noon.
Many textbooks will attribute discoveries to specific Western scientists, "and yet we have physical evidence that contrasts that".
Dr Mercier is hopeful that Western science and traditional knowledge will find a balance.
"Every culture has a science. So it's really important for the indigenous voice to be there."
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Cheers.
Sriram
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I did read years ago in the New Scientist about quantum scientists and cosmologists running stuff past native Americans in order to see whether there was anything in the language which might express some of the concepts better and lead to further insights.
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I did read years ago in the New Scientist about quantum scientists and cosmologists running stuff past native Americans in order to see whether there was anything in the language which might express some of the concepts better and lead to further insights.
Yes...and Carl Sagan was one such famous astronomer and cosmologist who loved Hinduism and India.
Here is a video of Carl Sagan talking about cosmology and Hinduism.
https://vedicambassador.wordpress.com/tag/carl-sagan/
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Yes...and Carl Sagan was one such famous astronomer and cosmologist who loved Hinduism and India.
Here is a video of Carl Sagan talking about cosmology and Hinduism.
https://vedicambassador.wordpress.com/tag/carl-sagan/
thanks for the video , very interesting ,however I think you misunderstand its significance . Right now I don't have the motivation to explain .
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Plant medicine is another area where indigenous people have valuable knowledge.
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Plant medicine is another area where indigenous people have valuable knowledge.
until about the mid 1930s all medicine was nothing more than pot luck and with the indigenous people it still is , otherwise they wouldn't need hospitals
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until about the mid 1930s all medicine was nothing more than pot luck and with the indigenous people it still is , otherwise they wouldn't need hospitals
I didn’t say that they didn’t need modern medicine. But ‘new’ drugs have historically been discovered in plants and then synthesised (aspirin, quinine, digitalin, taxane) and to assume that there is nothing else out there - nor that native people can’t show us different ways of using plant medicines - is ignorant.
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I didn’t say that they didn’t need modern medicine. But ‘new’ drugs have historically been discovered in plants and then synthesised (aspirin, quinine, digitalin, taxane) and to assume that there is nothing else out there - nor that native people can’t show us different ways of using plant medicines - is ignorant.
the ignorance is not realising all medicines are made of atoms, molecules, compounds and chemicals found on EARTH.
It is the skill of humans that transform them into usable , safe ,effective medicines
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the ignorance is not realising all medicines are made of atoms, molecules, compounds and chemicals found on EARTH.
It is the skill of humans that transform them into usable , safe ,effective medicines
And that skill doesn’t just lie with Westerners.
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And that skill doesn’t just lie with Westerners.
I know who I would put my trust in having recently had a major operation
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Chinese astronomers produced detailed and interesting cosmological records.(e.g. recording the supernova that became the Crab Nebula) Their work was often influenced by Indian(especially Buddhist) astronomers. The Arabic world laid the foundations of modern astronomy, and we owe a great deal to those who observed sky phenomena throughout recorded history.
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I know who I would put my trust in having recently had a major operation
Which is misrepresenting what I said.
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I know who I would put my trust in having recently had a major operation
Typical 'either or' fragmented thinking...! You must try some integration sometime.
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Which is misrepresenting what I said.
no it isn't
do you think I'm fucking stupid?
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no it isn't
do you think I'm fucking stupid?
I've had three lots of major surgery plus several lots of minor and I want to be in a hospital as much as you when that happens.
But I didn't say that indigenous medicine should replace modern medicine. You misrepresented me there. What I said was that their use of plants can teach us things that we can take and adapt in the way that we have with other plant medicines in the past.
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I've had three lots of major surgery plus several lots of minor and I want to be in a hospital as much as you when that happens.
But I didn't say that indigenous medicine should replace modern medicine. You misrepresented me there. What I said was that their use of plants can teach us things that we can take and adapt in the way that we have with other plant medicines in the past.
thank you Rhi for your clarification . I hope you are well now
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thanks for the video , very interesting ,however I think you misunderstand its significance . Right now I don't have the motivation to explain .
You are trying to teach me the significance of my culture and religion...?! How very kind (and superior) of you!! Thanks. :)
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I think I have posted the Creation Hymn here before. Here it is once again.
Nasadiya from the Rig Veda (1500 BCE).
CREATION HYMN
There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottomlessly deep?
There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
The One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was fluid.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.
Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.
Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.
Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?
Whence this creation has arisen
– perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not –
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know.
Here is a short write up about it if you are interested....
https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/creation-hymn/
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thank you Rhi for your clarification . I hope you are well now
I'm good, thank you, the major surgeries were getting babies out.
I hope that you have recovered from your surgery too.
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I'm good, thank you, the major surgeries were getting babies out.
I hope that you have recovered from your surgery too.
oh I see, I'm pretty good at getting em in ;)
I'm improving fast now however today is a bit of a mare ! you may have noticed :-[
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oh I see, I'm pretty good at getting em in ;)
I'm improving fast now however today is a bit of a mare ! you may have noticed :-[
Bless you. I'm not exactly sweetness and light today either.
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Bless you. I'm not exactly sweetness and light today either.
big cuddles :)
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big cuddles :)
Right back at you. :P
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Right back at you. :P
that's nice , I've just been asleep for the last two hours . Which is now not looking good for tonight ::)
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that's nice , I've just been asleep for the last two hours . Which is now not looking good for tonight ::)
Vaguely back on topic...the milky sap in lettuce contains an opioid- like substance, hence the Flopsy Bunnies falling asleep on a compost heap. Not sure how much lettuce you’d need to eat to get the same effect, but Katie Boyle in the TV Times always used to recommend boiling water poured over a bowl of lettuce and put on a bedside table so the steam can be breathed in for insomnia.
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Vaguely back on topic...the milky sap in lettuce contains an opioid- like substance, hence the Flopsy Bunnies falling asleep on a compost heap. Not sure how much lettuce you’d need to eat to get the same effect, but Katie Boyle in the TV Times always used to recommend boiling water poured over a bowl of lettuce and put on a bedside table so the steam can be breathed in for insomnia.
to get the benefit you would have to eat it , the steam would just be water vapour , you might as well forget the lettuce !
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however I've sent out for a box of lettuce just in case , thanks for the tip (as Justin said to Tintin)
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If it doesn't work blame Katie. :P
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If it doesn't work blame Katie. :P
I remember she had an innocent sexuality about her .And I was just a youngster!
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I wouldn’t know. Anyway, I think I was about eight or nine when I read that. Don’t ask me why I remember it.
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Plant medicine is another area where indigenous people have valuable knowledge.
Ahem! ..cough!..cough! :-\
...if you both don't mind I would like to continue the discussion on the subject.
Ayurveda which is about 3000 years old has many valuable cures that would be very useful world over if only people put in enough money, time and qualified people to research on the thousands of herbal medicines that are available for a variety of ailments.
Many of the herbs are not readily available due to depleting forest areas. They have to be grown specifically for medical purposes in large farms. Also, most of the texts are n Sanskrit and were taught from father to son. The texts need to be acquired, translated and taught to interested students in colleges.
All this takes money and dedicated effort. Indian Govt. has now initiated some action in that direction....and Ayurveda is becoming more popular than ever before. Most people now go to modern medicine only for surgeries and emergency requirements.
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Ahem! ..cough!..cough! :-\
...if you both don't mind I would like to continue the discussion on the subject.
Ayurveda which is about 3000 years old has many valuable cures that would be very useful world over if only people put in enough money, time and qualified people to research on the thousands of herbal medicines that are available for a variety of ailments.
Many of the herbs are not readily available due to depleting forest areas. They have to be grown specifically for medical purposes in large farms. Also, most of the texts are n Sanskrit and were taught from father to son. The texts need to be acquired, translated and taught to interested students in colleges.
All this takes money and dedicated effort. Indian Govt. has now initiated some action in that direction....and Ayurveda is becoming more popular than ever before. Most people now go to modern medicine only for surgeries and emergency requirements.
unfortunately Ayurveda is considered pseudoscientific form of medicine .No matter how ancient or popular it's still not proper medicine , no matter how much you want it to be , sorry
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Ahem! ..cough!..cough! :-\
...if you both don't mind I would like to continue the discussion on the subject.
Ayurveda which is about 3000 years old has many valuable cures that would be very useful world over if only people put in enough money, time and qualified people to research on the thousands of herbal medicines that are available for a variety of ailments.
Many of the herbs are not readily available due to depleting forest areas. They have to be grown specifically for medical purposes in large farms. Also, most of the texts are n Sanskrit and were taught from father to son. The texts need to be acquired, translated and taught to interested students in colleges.
All this takes money and dedicated effort. Indian Govt. has now initiated some action in that direction....and Ayurveda is becoming more popular than ever before. Most people now go to modern medicine only for surgeries and emergency requirements.
I would have thought if it was so effective and so popular there would be huge amounts of money being thrown at it?
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Ayurveda which is about 3000 years old has many valuable cures that would be very useful world over if only people put in enough money, time and qualified people to research on the thousands of herbal medicines that are available for a variety of ailments.
I think they do, don't they. I'm sure I read that drugs companies send people out to find "new" herbal medicines that might be turned into usable drugs.
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unfortunately Ayurveda is considered pseudoscientific form of medicine .No matter how ancient or popular it's still not proper medicine , no matter how much you want it to be , sorry
You really must shed the 'Empire' tendency of sitting in England and making lofty proclamations about things you have no clue about.
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I think they do, don't they. I'm sure I read that drugs companies send people out to find "new" herbal medicines that might be turned into usable drugs.
There are some companies that specialize only in Ayurvedic products...but they are mostly about toothpastes, shampoos, face creams, soaps and so on.
I was talking about researching on the whole gamut of Ayurveda in general. No individual company would do that. It involves not just translation of ancient texts such as Charaka Samitha or Sushruta Samhitha.
Ayurveda has developed differently in different regions over the centuries to suit the availability of herbs locally. The Himalayan system for example is quite different from the deep south Kerala system. Even within a region, different traditions could be followed by different schools established by different practitioners over the centuries (Kottakkal and Warrier for example). And each of these could be in a different language. Some of it could be transmitted through oral tradition and may not even be available in writing.
Acquiring all these relevant texts, translation, identifying the herbs (which could run into thousands), cataloging, clinical research on their individual efficacy, preparing the drugs using modern methods....etc. etc....all this is a herculean task that no individual company will undertake.
The Indian Govt. has set up a department specifically for such matters. They seem to be doing something.
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http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/8/07-042820/en/G
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You really must shed the 'Empire' tendency of sitting in England and making lofty proclamations about things you have no clue about.
Actually I'm no supporter of empire although I am sitting in England and if I am making proclamations about things I know nothing about , so are you .
I have no doubt the herbs and plants you refer to have properties useful to human medicine . But its not the plant its self. The plant may contain active ingredients which can then be isolated and manufactured synthetically ,tested and correct dosages worked out .
I'm guessing many people will have been killed from use of some of these herbs because 'practitioners' have no idea how they work or what the active ingredients are and are unable to give correct dosages.
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One huge problem with plant medicines is that a lot are ‘wild cultivated’ ie. taken from their natural habitats. Echinacea is one example where wild populations are threatened. Synthesising the active ingredients means that plant life is preserved and not exploited.
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I'm guessing many people will have been killed from use of some of these herbs because 'practitioners' have no idea how they work or what the active ingredients are and are unable to give correct dosages.
A bit like TGN1412, Aricept and thalidomide then.
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A bit like TGN1412, Aricept and thalidomide then.
yeah, that's right ::)
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One huge problem with plant medicines is that a lot are ‘wild cultivated’ ie. taken from their natural habitats. Echinacea is one example where wild populations are threatened. Synthesising the active ingredients means that plant life is preserved and not exploited.
you do realise Echinacea is quack medicine though don't you?
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http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/8/07-042820/en/G
Sorry, your link didn't work for me, but without the final "G" I get:
Herbal medicine research and global health: an ethical analysis (http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/8/07-042820/en/)
Good article.
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Sorry, your link didn't work for me, but without the final "G" I get:
Herbal medicine research and global health: an ethical analysis (http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/8/07-042820/en/)
Good article.
yes , thanks for that
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The idea of isolating the 'active ingredient' is not always useful. Very often the entire herb including other chemicals and the roughage have a role to play in the cure. It is a package. Isolated chemicals can result in side effects.
For example, isolating the active ingredient in apples and imbibing only that may not be useful. The whole apple along with its skin have a role in promoting good health. In fact, the entire idea of dietary packages (eating certain items in combination with certain other items) prevalent in various communities have a role to play in promoting good health and well being.
In any case, off hand opinions and judgments about 'herbal cures' in general are childish. They stem from the usual 'modern vs traditional' mindset. Herbal medicines are not opposed to modern medicine. They are the precursors of modern medicine. We should stop taking political positions for or against either of them. Life did not begin in the 19th or 20th Century.
The OP article is meant precisely to highlight that Science did not begin in the 19th or 20th Centuries. Granted that improved technology has helped in many ways in recent times, but Science is as old as the hills.
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The idea of isolating the 'active ingredient' is not always useful. Very often the entire herb including other chemicals and the roughage have a role to play in the cure. It is a package. Isolated chemicals can result in side effects.
And sometimes it is useful otherwise would you recommend that I chew several dozen willow leaves or maybe add in the branch when I have a headache - or take two aspirin and a glass of water?
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yeah, that's right ::)
Glad you agree. It forms part of iatrogenic diseases.
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The idea of isolating the 'active ingredient' is not always useful.
Yes but mostly it is. And there is no reason why you can't isolate multiple active ingredients.
For example, isolating the active ingredient in apples and imbibing only that may not be useful. The whole apple along with its skin have a role in promoting good health. In fact, the entire idea of dietary packages (eating certain items in combination with certain other items) prevalent in various communities have a role to play in promoting good health and well being.
I'm not aware that apples have a significant role in the medicinal industry. We eat apples for food and because they taste nice. You could isolate all the active ingredients (i.e. the nutritional ones) and administer them separately, but I bet it wouldn't be as nice as just eating the apple.
In any case, off hand opinions and judgments about 'herbal cures' in general are childish. They stem from the usual 'modern vs traditional' mindset. Herbal medicines are not opposed to modern medicine. They are the precursors of modern medicine. We should stop taking political positions for or against either of them. Life did not begin in the 19th or 20th Century.
This is true, but, refining the active ingredients is a step forward because you can omit the poisons and you can control the dose.
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Yes but mostly it is. And there is no reason why you can't isolate multiple active ingredients.
I'm not aware that apples have a significant role in the medicinal industry. We eat apples for food and because they taste nice. You could isolate all the active ingredients (i.e. the nutritional ones) and administer them separately, but I bet it wouldn't be as nice as just eating the apple.
This is true, but, refining the active ingredients is a step forward because you can omit the poisons and you can control the dose.
I mentioned apples as an example of how Nature provides us with nutrition in certain packages. Every part of it has a function and a role. Similarly with medicinal herbs.
The second point is about Science being a part of life all through history. Though perhaps not named and categorized as such.
No doubt technology has developed very rapidly in recent decades helping medicine and other areas of science to also develop rapidly . But that does not mean we can create artificial and distinct divides between so called 'traditional' and 'modern' aspects of life. As though they are two different worlds.
Skepticism, suspicion, doubt and scorn for everything that is traditional, is dysfunctional. Life is a continuum with no discrete breaks. Integrating traditional practices with modern methods is the way forward.
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Integrating traditional practices with modern methods is the way forward.
That's probably why practitioners use the expression 'complementary medicine' rather than 'alternative medicine'. What has often happened is when allopathic treatment has failed an ill person, in desperation they have tried a complementary treatment and found it has appeared to have worked for them.
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That's probably why practitioners use the expression 'complementary medicine' rather than 'alternative medicine'. What has often happened is when allopathic treatment has failed an ill person, in desperation they have tried a complementary treatment and found it has appeared to have worked for them.
''appeared to have worked for them' being the significant part of that sentence.
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''appeared to have worked for them' being the significant part of that sentence.
Yes, that's right. An outside observer only has anecdotal evidence but the individual being treated, if their state of well being is improved, will return for further treatment. There are no guarantees in medicine.
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Yes, that's right. An outside observer only has anecdotal evidence but the individual being treated, if their state of well being is improved, will return for further treatment. There are no guarantees in medicine.
there is a case of a desperate cancer patient who could not be helped any further by modern medicine who turned to alternative medicine . After a course of 'treatment ' she said she felt well again and had a positive view of the future as a result of it . She was wrong , she had deceived herself and if I'm not mistaken she died shortly afterwards.
Just to say , some of the details of the above may be slightly incorrect but the principle remains . If I remember correctly it was part of a channel 4 documentary some time ago.
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there is a case of a desperate cancer patient who could not be helped any further by modern medicine who turned to alternative medicine . After a course of 'treatment ' she said she felt well again and had a positive view of the future as a result of it . She was wrong , she had deceived herself and if I'm not mistaken she died shortly afterwards.
Just to say , some of the details of the above may be slightly incorrect but the principle remains . If I remember correctly it was part of a channel 4 documentary some time ago.
It's difficult to comment without seeing the program or knowing what form the complementary medicine took. Sometimes a feeling of well being and positivity rather than feeling ill and depressed or negative is all that can be hoped for when the physical body is in a terminal decline. Most complementary therapies tend to be about restoring the physical and mental balance of an individual. If that individual is chronically unbalanced then it is likely to take a great deal of time to restore that balance, something the individual may not have.
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there is a case of a desperate cancer patient who could not be helped any further by modern medicine who turned to alternative medicine.
I suppose there are thousands of such cases occurring all the time, Walter. I know that when someone dear to me was in late stage cancer, all sorts of "alternative" suggestions were made. (One such was shark cartilage - and the suggestion was accompanied by a testimony of how effective it had been on a dog for which veterinary hope had ended.)
The major point missing from Sriram's narrative about the effectiveness of traditional remedies is the thousands - or possibly millions - of corpses belonging to those who sampled berries from the wrong bush.
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I am reminded of the estimable John Diamond and his book Snake Oil
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I am reminded of the estimable John Diamond and his book Snake Oil
I was just going to mention this, NS. I have it in front of me at the moment. You beat me to it. :)
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I was just going to mention this, NS. I have it in front of me at the moment. You beat me to it. :)
It's a great piece of humanity.
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I suppose there are thousands of such cases occurring all the time, Walter. I know that when someone dear to me was in late stage cancer, all sorts of "alternative" suggestions were made. (One such was shark cartilage - and the suggestion was accompanied by a testimony of how effective it had been on a dog for which veterinary hope had ended.)
The major point missing from Sriram's narrative about the effectiveness of traditional remedies is the thousands - or possibly millions - of corpses belonging to those who sampled berries from the wrong bush.
Perhaps in India they don't have the inclination to experiment on animals first, not that that is a 100% safeguard, remembering Opren - the anti-rheumatic drug - which was reported as killing 76 people and left seriously ill three and a half thousand others.
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I mentioned apples as an example of how Nature provides us with nutrition in certain packages. Every part of it has a function and a role. Similarly with medicinal herbs.
Are you claiming that certain herbs exist only to cure human diseases? What bollocks. If the function of a willow tree was to provide pain relievers to humans, it would have the pain relief chemicals in handy little pouches in regulated doses.
The function of an apple is to spread the seeds of apple trees far and wide. The fact that it tastes nice is a happy byproduct of the species' chosen method of dispersal.
The second point is about Science being a part of life all through history. Though perhaps not named and categorized as such.
No doubt technology has developed very rapidly in recent decades helping medicine and other areas of science to also develop rapidly . But that does not mean we can create artificial and distinct divides between so called 'traditional' and 'modern' aspects of life. As though they are two different worlds.
Skepticism, suspicion, doubt and scorn for everything that is traditional, is dysfunctional. Life is a continuum with no discrete breaks. Integrating traditional practices with modern methods is the way forward.
People don't scorn traditional things. It's just that modern science can take traditional cures and a) find out if they really work or not and b) refine the active ingredients so that they are safer and more controllable.
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Most complementary therapies tend to be about restoring the physical and mental balance of an individual. If that individual is chronically unbalanced then it is likely to take a great deal of time to restore that balance, something the individual may not have.
How do you measure this balance?
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How do you measure this balance?
chronically? ;D
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How do you measure this balance?
If I were being treated, I would measure it upon me by the degree of well being and harmony I am experiencing both physically and mentally. To answer Walter's question, some people do measure their treatment chronically and get upset if any treatment does not produce results in a short time.
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If I were being treated, I would measure it upon me by the degree of well being and harmony I am experiencing both physically and mentally. To answer Walter's question, some people do measure their treatment chronically and get upset if any treatment does not produce results in a short time.
don't think your critical thinking skills are firing on all cylinders ,ekim!
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Anyway guys....thankfully your grandchildren are not likely to be as blind and blinkered as most of you are. They are likely to have greater exposure and wider experiences in today's world (hopefully). That is a plus going forward! :D
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don't think your critical thinking skills are firing on all cylinders ,ekim!
Explain.
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Anyway guys....thankfully your grandchildren are not likely to be as blind and blinkered as most of you are. They are likely to have greater exposure and wider experiences in today's world (hopefully). That is a plus going forward! :D
eh?
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Explain.
you need to use some specific measurable terms rather than 'wellbeing' and 'harmony' otherwise its just gibberish .
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If I were being treated, I would measure it upon me by the degree of well being and harmony I am experiencing both physically and mentally.
How would you assess those degrees and how do you compare the mental degree with the physical degree.
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Anyway guys....thankfully your grandchildren are not likely to be as blind and blinkered as most of you are. They are likely to have greater exposure and wider experiences in today's world (hopefully). That is a plus going forward! :D
Can't really see anyone on here being blind and blinkered, only displaying a health skepticism (if you excuse the pun).
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Anyway guys....thankfully your grandchildren are not likely to be as blind and blinkered as most of you are. They are likely to have greater exposure and wider experiences in today's world (hopefully). That is a plus going forward! :D
As long as they are not super gullible and take every video on YouTube which claims to show spirits ,as true. I'll be happy.
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you need to use some specific measurable terms rather than 'wellbeing' and 'harmony' otherwise its just gibberish .
I don't need specific measurable terms. I know when I am feeling well or feeling ill or just below par or in high spirits etc.
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How would you assess those degrees and how do you compare the mental degree with the physical degree.
I'm not sure that 'assess' is a word I would use upon myself but as regards the mental state I would be aware if I was mentally agitated or lethargic or in a state of harmonious calm between the two. As regards the physical state I would be aware of the degree of the body's function/dysfunction or the presence/absence of pain. I don't know if I am answering your question but if not perhaps you could rephrase it.
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I don't need specific measurable terms. I know when I am feeling well or feeling ill or just below par or in high spirits etc.
good for you but how would you propose measuring other peoples experience based on how you 'feel'?
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good for you but how would you propose measuring other peoples experience based on how you 'feel'?
If you look at what I said originally I prefaced it with 'If I were being treated'. You are now changing the question to 'me measuring other people'. To answer this, I would assume that others are capable of being aware of their own physical or mental condition before and after treatment based upon how they 'feel'. Isn't this what fills doctors' surgeries or causes a patient to ask for treatment in the first place?