Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on November 20, 2017, 09:42:36 AM
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Hi everyone,
Here is a BBC article about Goals.....and why we should give up on them.
http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20171117-why-we-should-all-give-up-on-goals-already
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To be successful or fulfilled, we all know you need to have specific goals.
To achieve them, you should visualise, plan your steps there and attach deadlines and incentives. Work hard, even if you hate the work. And never stray from the path.
But that outlook, say a growing number of academic researchers, career coaches and thought leaders, isn’t only flawed, it may also, ironically, be keeping us from success.
“The key for success is, if you have somewhere you’d like to be in five years, don’t be so attached to it that it drives everything you do.”
“Goals in themselves aren’t bad,” says Lisa Ordonez, vice dean at University of Arizona’s Eller College of Management. “It’s how we treat them.
Many aren’t necessarily our own ambitions, but what we think we should do.
That disconnect shows up even in the most basic example of what people want versus what they strive for. Most people say their main goal in life is to be happy.
But while research has shown that happiness results from simple things like expressing gratitude rather than buying a bigger house, or by prioritising family over career, our ambitions often focus on the latter. Worse, we may sacrifice personal relationships to get there – even though that’s the kind of trade-off most people come to regret.
That focus on outcome alone feeds into a hamster-wheel mentality. The Bhagavad Gita, the fundamental Hindu text, communicated the downside of this perpetual motion 2,200 years ago: “Those who are motivated only by desire for the fruits of action are miserable, for they are constantly anxious about the results of what they do.”
If you really want to find fulfilment, you have to do something else, too. “Give yourself entirely to your work, yes. But let go of the outcome. Be alike in success and defeat,”
Despite how it sounds, it turns out that living with fewer goals, and with purpose, direction and openness instead, may be an even bigger challenge than sticking to a plan. But it can be more freeing and fulfilling.
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Cheers.
Sriram
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I’ve long thought something similar about goal setting. The important part of the article discusses the impact on the workplace and the increased likelihood that ethics and genuine efficiency go out of the window in order to meet goals. People cheat, aim low to meet the targets and lose compassion. This has huge implications for two very target setting organisations - the NHS and schools.
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I’ve long thought something similar about goal setting. The important part of the article discusses the impact on the workplace and the increased likelihood that ethics and genuine efficiency go out of the window in order to meet goals. People cheat, aim low to meet the targets and lose compassion. This has huge implications for two very target setting organisations - the NHS and schools.
unfortunately the industries that provided me with an income all my working life relied entirely on reaching goals .
If an individual failed to meet those goals they were out, looking for another job. To be honest ,it's all I know and it has served me well in my personal and private life too. However I fully understand the essence of the article.
The secret of goal setting is to be realistic . If a goal is obviously unachievable from the start, abandon it. In industry a goal is only achievable if it is agreed between 'management' and 'employee' otherwise its an order as in the military sense.
As for the NHS I have conflicting views on that . if you compare the workings of a private hospital to that of NHS it becomes obvious some goal setting could be useful.
And ,as for schools, a fire cracker up the teachers arses would outstrip the benefits of goal setting in most cases.
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West Ham have beening doing that for a while and see where that has got them!
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When private hospitals start running ED's let me know and I will do some comparison of "goals" until that day comes STFU.
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When private hospitals start running ED's let me know and I will do some comparison of "goals" until that day comes STFU.
Insider knowledge , I'm thinking ? YCC
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Yes. Sorry for being abrupt. But the field is now so crowded with goalposts that it is nigh on impossible to score.
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Yes. Sorry for being abrupt. But the field is now so crowded with goalposts that it is nigh on impossible to score.
honestly, you do have my sympathy , however during my recent stay there were a few things that obviously required attention .
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Yes. Sorry for being abrupt. But the field is now so crowded with goalposts that it is nigh on impossible to score.
Indeed. And in too many cases the "goals" are those for which targets are easy to measure, not those which tell you how well a complex organisation is engaged in complex activities.
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honestly, you do have my sympathy , however during my recent stay there were a few things that obviously required attention .
How do you know that targets would solve the problems that you observed? How do you know that the culture of target setting isn't the cause of them?
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How do you know that targets would solve the problems that you observed? How do you know that the culture of target setting isn't the cause of them?
I could have used my management skills to set small achievable goals in a local environment to improve the running of some aspects of the ward I was on . Does that help ?
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I could have used my management skills to set small achievable goals in a local environment to improve the running of some aspects of the ward I was on . Does that help ?
No, because you don't know that target setting elsewhere diverts resources to the extent that your small changes would not be possible.
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I think the article in the OP confuses things that are called goals but at very different levels.
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No, because you don't know that target setting elsewhere diverts resources to the extent that your small changes would not be possible.
Then - let's do whatever - you seem to be arguing that there is no absolute measurement and therefore no measurement is worthwhile.
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Then - let's do whatever - you seem to be arguing that there is no absolute measurement and therefore no measurement is worthwhile.
No, what I am saying is that Walter couldn't judge because he didn't know what would override the changes he would make. If Walter was actually employed on the ward he would know whether targets were something that he could implement or not.
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Then - let's do whatever - you seem to be arguing that there is no absolute measurement and therefore no measurement is worthwhile.
exactly.
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I think the article in the OP confuses things that are called goals but at very different levels.
A big problem is that people have taken what works in a corporate setting - sometimes - and transferred them to the self help sector - like 'happiness' is an achievable goal in the same was as 'packing ten boxes' is.
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exactly.
So if you say to me, 'pack ten boxes' why should I pack 16? Bearing in mind that if you pay me per box I might cheat or cut corners.
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No, what I am saying is that Walter couldn't judge because he didn't know what would override the changes he would make. If Walter was actually employed on the ward he would know whether targets were something that he could implement or not.
to be more specific , the targets I would have set would've been regarding staff attitude and speed of performing tasks.
It's minor in the scheme of things but small steps lead to bigger ones
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No, what I am saying is that Walter couldn't judge because he didn't know what would override the changes he would make. If Walter was actually employed on the ward he would know whether targets were something that he could implement or not.
But would he know what resources would be diverted from other goals? How would he know that? Does Walter have perfect knowledge? Or rather does someone on the ground have perfect knowledge?
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So if you say to me, 'pack ten boxes' why should I pack 16? Bearing in mind that if you pay me per box I might cheat or cut corners.
So you shouldn't be told to pack any boxes? Or 7? Or 21?
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So if you say to me, 'pack ten boxes' why should I pack 16? Bearing in mind that if you pay me per box I might cheat or cut corners.
if your instruction was to pack 10 then pack ten , if you cant take instruction you're in the wrong job
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So you shouldn't be told to pack any boxes? Or 7? Or 21?
I'm going by the findings such as those in the article. Target setting of this kind means that people cheat.
How many times have you had an Amazon delivery that has the wrong stuff, or is broken, or has one tiny thing in a massive box, wasting resources because the packer was in a rush? Targets do not mean efficiency.
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if your instruction was to pack 10 then pack ten , if you cant take instruction you're in the wrong job
Wouldn't you rather I packed more? Why limit my efficiency? we are talking targets here, not orders.
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to be more specific , the targets I would have set would've been regarding staff attitude and speed of performing tasks.
It's minor in the scheme of things but small steps lead to bigger ones
I agree totally about attitude being key, but how can you set goals to encourage or enforce that?
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I'm going by the findings such as those in the article. Target setting of this kind means that people cheat.
How many times have you had an Amazon delivery that has the wrong stuff, or is broken, or has one tiny thing in a massive box, wasting resources because the packer was in a rush? Targets do not mean efficiency.
Except the article also argues for stretching specific goals in certain situations but doesn't really state what those are.
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I agree totally about attitude being key, but how can you set goals to encourage or enforce that?
And if you have no measurement of it, how would you know?
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Wouldn't you rather I packed more? Why limit my efficiency? we are talking targets here, not orders.
Aren't targets goals?
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And if you have no measurement of it, how would you know?
I didn't say don't measure it. I question the value of set targets.
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Aren't targets goals?
Yes, but I don't see your point?
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I didn't say don't measure it. I question the value of set targets.
So how do I evaluate 'Be all you can be'? Or what do you think would be a useful way of evaluating performance?
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Except the article also argues for stretching specific goals in certain situations but doesn't really state what those are.
It talks about weight loss, doesn't it? The target setting of 'loss' is an odd one to start with and we don't see 'loss' as a positive generally; add to that the way in which food is labelled as 'good', 'bad', 'treats' and the culture of denial and you can see why those are crap targets. Making food just food and the 'goal' not a loss at some point, but eating healthily in the here and now - a form of self care and not self denial - is shown to have a better outcome.
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Yes, but I don't see your point?
You seem to be suggesting that targets' rather than orders are ok? I may be mistaken here bit I don't see that a goal can't be beaten, and if it isn't a target then I don't see what the problem is with setting it as an aim that could be beaten?
You were suggesting that if you set a goal people would cheat - why isn't that the case with a target that you seem to think is ok?
Again. I'm back at the original article confusing its terms and its message here.
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I agree totally about attitude being key, but how can you set goals to encourage or enforce that?
that's where the skill and vision of the manager comes in to play , a successful manager knows how to achieve this .
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So how do I evaluate 'Be all you can be'? Or what do you think would be a useful way of evaluating performance?
You'd need to see if people are more efficient without the setting of targets. Measure with, measure without, look at outcomes.
You also need to trust people to know what they need to do in order to work efficiently. I find this at home; my eleven year old needs me to keep an eye on his school work because he doesn't yet have the skills to self organise, whereas my fifteen year old knows far better than I do what she needs to do, when and how.
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It talks about weight loss, doesn't it? The target setting of 'loss' is an odd one to start with and we don't see 'loss' as a positive generally; add to that the way in which food is labelled as 'good', 'bad', 'treats' and the culture of denial and you can see why those are crap targets. Making food just food and the 'goal' not a loss at some point, but eating healthily in the here and now - a form of self care and not self denial - is shown to have a better outcome.
I think there is a new para in the article after weight loss discussion where it says
'To make matters more confusing, you can forget setting yourself nice, easily attainable targets to achieve your objectives and shield yourself against the negative effects of slipping up. Research shows that tough, specific goals get better results than easy, vague ones.'
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Aren't targets goals?
no , targets are what you aim for on the way to achieving a goal
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You'd need to see if people are more efficient without the setting of targets. Measure with, measure without, look at outcomes.
You also need to trust people to know what they need to do in order to work efficiently. I find this at home; my eleven year old needs me to keep an eye on his school work because he doesn't yet have the skills to self organise, whereas my fifteen year old knows far better than I do what she needs to do, when and how.
You still need to have a measurement how you evaluate that. And what if efficiency is delivery is by dates? Or by cost? Or by quality? It's good that your 15 year old knows how to work, how would that work in a complex interdependent environment?
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that's where the skill and vision of the manager comes in to play , a successful manager knows how to achieve this .
I agree there, but target setting can be alienating and demoralising.
I sometimes get outstanding service in places and try to let people in management know how good their staff are in I can. I've done it with big superstores and A&E. No idea if it makes a difference but I so appreciate small things - a man carrying my bags around Currys, a healthcare assistant smiling and stopping me feeling so scared.
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You still need to have a measurement how you evaluate that. And what if efficiency is delivery is by dates? Or by cost? Or by quality? It's good that your 15 year old knows how to work, how would that work in a complex interdependent environment?
Doesn't it vary from job to job? Ten packed boxes isn't any good if the goods get broken, but if the boxes only have foam footballs it might not be so bad, but maybe if I didn't only aim for the ten I could have packed 14.
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I agree there, but target setting can be alienating and demoralising.
I sometimes get outstanding service in places and try to let people in management know how good their staff are in I can. I've done it with big superstores and A&E. No idea if it makes a difference but I so appreciate small things - a man carrying my bags around Currys, a healthcare assistant smiling and stopping me feeling so scared.
All still measurable in terms of feedback. If it isn't how would you know?
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Doesn't it vary from job to job? Ten packed boxes isn't any good if the goods get broken, but if the boxes only have foam footballs it might not be so bad, but maybe if I didn't only aim for the ten I could have packed 14.
indeed - so all of that needs to be taken into account into what the goal is.
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I think there is a new para in the article after weight loss discussion where it says
'To make matters more confusing, you can forget setting yourself nice, easily attainable targets to achieve your objectives and shield yourself against the negative effects of slipping up. Research shows that tough, specific goals get better results than easy, vague ones.'
I once did a life coaching course with Michael Neill. He said that you should make your goal something that you think is crazy. Then have blast trying to get there.
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I agree there, but target setting can be alienating and demoralising.
I sometimes get outstanding service in places and try to let people in management know how good their staff are in I can. I've done it with big superstores and A&E. No idea if it makes a difference but I so appreciate small things - a man carrying my bags around Currys, a healthcare assistant smiling and stopping me feeling so scared.
there's the thing , its the individual you need to praise , not the manager ,.
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Doesn't it vary from job to job? Ten packed boxes isn't any good if the goods get broken, but if the boxes only have foam footballs it might not be so bad, but maybe if I didn't only aim for the ten I could have packed 14.
but the extra 4 might be needed for another task and you've just mucked up the system You are not privy to the running of the factory after all
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I once did a life coaching course with Michael Neill. He said that you should make your goal something that you think is crazy. Then have blast trying to get there.
sounds to me like his goal was to make money as a life coach ;)
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sounds to me like his goal was to make money as a life coach ;)
He's shit hot at it. :D
Genuinely nice bloke though.
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there's the thing , its the individual you need to praise , not the manager ,.
Which I always do, in person, but I hope that letting the management know that their staff are going above and beyond also makes a difference to their experience of working. I know when I made the comment about how well I was treated in A&E I was told that the team that looked after me would be informed that I'd been in touch to say how much I'd appreciated their care.
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I agree totally about attitude being key, but how can you set goals to encourage or enforce that?
Maybe if they stopped setting so many unachievable goals the staff might be more pleasant. Just a fucking thought. And breathe......
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Maybe if they stopped setting so many unachievable goals the staff might be more pleasant. Just a fucking thought. And breathe......
it's good to have a rant sometimes eh!
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Which I always do, in person, but I hope that letting the management know that their staff are going above and beyond also makes a difference to their experience of working. I know when I made the comment about how well I was treated in A&E I was told that the team that looked after me would be informed that I'd been in touch to say how much I'd appreciated their care.
well done , there should be more like you .
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Which I always do, in person, but I hope that letting the management know that their staff are going above and beyond also makes a difference to their experience of working. I know when I made the comment about how well I was treated in A&E I was told that the team that looked after me would be informed that I'd been in touch to say how much I'd appreciated their care.
Surely though that's why it's important to gather feedback because not everyone is as proactive as you, and it's about understanding how people feel that allows you to measure that?
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Maybe if they stopped setting so many unachievable goals the staff might be more pleasant. Just a fucking thought. And breathe......
My feeling is that the people that set the goals don't have the faintest idea about what is needed, how things work or how to value both staff and patients. Might be wrong though.
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Surely though that's why it's important to gather feedback because not everyone is as proactive as you, and it's about understanding how people feel that allows you to measure that?
I'm not against information gathering. What makes you think that?
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I'm not against information gathering. What makes you think that?
Then surely the information gathering leans to some form of target evaluation? Surely there is a concept of what is good, bad or mediocre?
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Then surely the information gathering leans to some form of target evaluation? Surely there is a concept of what is good, bad or mediocre?
Not necessarily. Doesn't it show what works and what doesn't?
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Not necessarily. Doesn't it show what works and what doesn't?
And isn't what makes people feel better treated what works if that is the aim?
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Not necessarily. Doesn't it show what works and what doesn't?
it strikes me from reading the comments on this thread that a number of people here haven't really experienced a world of work where targets and goals are everything . Nearly all my working life it's been a case of 'you are only as good as your last months figures'. especially in the finance industry .
And to be honest I did quite well at it , there were some who fell by the wayside and some I pushed , don't really know what happened to them , don't really care although I do know one ended up driving a taxi .
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it strikes me from reading the comments on this thread that a number of people here haven't really experienced a world of work where targets and goals are everything . Nearly all my working life it's been a case of 'you are only as good as your last months figures'. especially in the finance industry .
And to be honest I did quite well at it , there were some who fell by the wayside and some I pushed , don't really know what happened to them , don't really care although I do know one ended up driving a taxi .
And how much has PPI cost the finance industry in terms if both cost and reputation because the targets were too short term?
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And how much has PPI cost the finance industry in terms if both cost and reputation because the targets were too short term?
jeeez , I made a fortune out of selling that ;D thank you very much
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jeeez , I made a fortune out of selling that ;D thank you very much
Selling - he said selling , just selling. No misses here.
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Selling - he said selling , just selling. No misses here.
it's a dirty word mate , I hate it
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good morning each ;)
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The article is about personal goals (not corporate goals). Two things become relevant...
1. Setting the appropriate goal and knowing how to get there.
2. Our attitude while working on the goal.
It is like driving a car. You have to decide where you are going and how to get there before you start driving. You can't keep shifting your goals and go hither and thither while driving.
Secondly...once you start driving...LET GO. If you are too focused on the road and intensely aware of every vehicle and every pedestrian on the road...you will get stressed. Get into automation mode....
There will be traffic jams, rain, potholes, honkers... Never mind. Sing, relax and enjoy the drive.
I think that is what the above article is talking about.
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It is like driving a car. You have to decide where you are going and how to get there before you start driving. You can't keep shifting your goals and go hither and thither while driving.
Why not? There are times when some people might just enjoy the experience of driving (or in my case motorcycling).
Secondly...once you start driving...LET GO. If you are too focused on the road and intensely aware of every vehicle and every pedestrian on the road...you will get stressed. Get into automation mode....
Nope - driving/riding anything and not staying focused does sound like the direct route to the mortuary for somebody.
There will be traffic jams, rain, potholes, honkers... Never mind. Sing, relax and enjoy the drive.
While paying attention too.
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My feeling is that the people that set the goals don't have the faintest idea about what is needed, how things work or how to value both staff and patients. Might be wrong though.
Indeed. They are politicians who operate with very short time scales - the date of the next election. Hence they go for goals/targets which are easy to measure - like number of people spending more than x hours before being discharged etc. Certainly, knowing how long you should expect to wait is important, but knowing that the treatment you will receive is optimal to your effective recovery is even more important. Clinicians being berated by bean-counters is a sure recipe for less than optimal treatment.
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The article is about personal goals (not corporate goals). Two things become relevant...
1. Setting the appropriate goal and knowing how to get there.
2. Our attitude while working on the goal.
It is like driving a car. You have to decide where you are going and how to get there before you start driving. You can't keep shifting your goals and go hither and thither while driving.
Secondly...once you start driving...LET GO. If you are too focused on the road and intensely aware of every vehicle and every pedestrian on the road...you will get stressed. Get into automation mode....
There will be traffic jams, rain, potholes, honkers... Never mind. Sing, relax and enjoy the drive.
I think that is what the above article is talking about.
But the notion of setting specific goals has been taken from the corporate world, and it is to the corporate world that people are now looking to understand why things go wrong with personal goal setting, hence the mention of VW.
If I have a goal and the rain means that I don't get there on time, or a pothole means that my wheel breaks, I'd better have plan B. Sitting there singing means I'm going nowhere fast.
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But the notion of setting specific goals has been taken from the corporate world, and it is to the corporate world that people are now looking to understand why things go wrong with personal goal setting, hence the mention of VW.
If I have a goal and the rain means that I don't get there on time, or a pothole means that my wheel breaks, I'd better have plan B. Sitting there singing means I'm going nowhere fast.
one aspect of goal setting is to include people who can help you achieve your goal .
in thye cases you have mentioned ; if you felt there was a chance you might encounter rain somewhere along the line it would have been prudent to enlist an umbrella supplier beforehand
in the case of the pothole , make sure you have spare wheels on board
goal setting requires a lot of thought and usually requires the recruiting of others to help you achieve it ,
how you do that is up to yo though !
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one aspect of goal setting is to include people who can help you achieve your goal .
in thye cases you have mentioned ; if you felt there was a chance you might encounter rain somewhere along the line it would have been prudent to enlist an umbrella supplier beforehand
in the case of the pothole , make sure you have spare wheels on board
goal setting requires a lot of thought and usually requires the recruiting of others to help you achieve it ,
how you do that is up to yo though !
I based that on Sriram’s post.
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The article is about personal goals (not corporate goals). Two things become relevant...
1. Setting the appropriate goal and knowing how to get there.
2. Our attitude while working on the goal.
It is like driving a car. You have to decide where you are going and how to get there before you start driving. You can't keep shifting your goals and go hither and thither while driving.
Secondly...once you start driving...LET GO. If you are too focused on the road and intensely aware of every vehicle and every pedestrian on the road...you will get stressed. Get into automation mode....
There will be traffic jams, rain, potholes, honkers... Never mind. Sing, relax and enjoy the drive.
I think that is what the above article is talking about.
As I already mentioned, the article seems very confused to me and covers sales targets and VW emission targets - so it is certainly referring to corporate goals.
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The whole sector is muddled. Buy a book on personal success and you get tips from Richard Branson and Anita Roddick.
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The whole sector is muddled. Buy a book on personal success and you get tips from Richard Branson and Anita Roddick.
I'll look out for it in the bargain bin ;D
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I'll look out for it in the bargain bin ;D
No need, it can be yours for a penny on Amazon Marketplace.
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No need, it can be yours for a penny on Amazon Marketplace.
really? can you order it for me and ill send you the money ?