Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: jakswan on November 28, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
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“From a UK investor perspective, we believe that the domestic political situation is at least as significant as Brexit, given the fragile state of the current government and the perceived risks of an incoming Labour administration that could potentially embark on a radical change in policy direction."
I did see one vox pop where a lady at a speech said she 'didn't know much about politics but felt Corbyn was a really nice man'.
That the Corbyn cult could actually gain power is pretty scary.
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Doesn't scare me in the least. I'm eagerly anticipating it in fact.
Your faith in what bankers think is endearing though.
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It shows that Brexit is shit for business and Corbyn is bad for oligarchy.
So ownership of British utilities by European state corporations is exceedingly good.
British state corporations bad.
Ownership of British utilities by European state corporations good.
Partnership with European states bad.
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No worries from me either.
A radical change in policy direction imo is just what we need.
My only slight concern is that Corbyn is not capable of being radical enough.
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Don't think there's going to be an election or vote in 2018. That would be five votes in five years.
Four big votes did for the Tory Majority why would they risk a repeat?
A vote for the Tories is a vote for yearly elections and rolling government and leadership.
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That the Corbyn cult could actually gain power is pretty scary.
Not in the least.
The debacle that is brexit, on the other hand...
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Didn't realise we had so members of the cult on this forum. That is a bit mean, maybe you will prove me wrong and defend policy with more than rhetoric and whataboutery....
The biggest change proposed by Labour is change to Corp tax, all hypothetical at this stage but two things could happen as a result:-
1. What Labour expects to happen, increase HMRC tax take
2. No increase in tax take, slight downturn in economy
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Didn't realise we had so members of the cult on this forum. That is a bit mean, maybe you will prove me wrong and defend policy with more than rhetoric and whataboutery....
The biggest change proposed by Labour is change to Corp tax, all hypothetical at this stage but two things could happen as a result:-
1. What Labour expects to happen, increase HMRC tax take
2. No increase in tax take, slight downturn in economy
So you yourself have answered the question with 2 possibilities. What more do you want 'members of the cult' to add. If it increases that will be good. If it goes down I would expect some further change in policy to rectify the situation.
Hypotheticals. Don't you just love 'em.
Ps do you refer to the % of the population who voted for Theresa May as 'members of the cult'. Or perhaps there is an incorrect consonant in that phrase?
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Didn't realise we had so members of the cult on this forum. That is a bit mean, maybe you will prove me wrong and defend policy with more than rhetoric and whataboutery....
The biggest change proposed by Labour is change to Corp tax, all hypothetical at this stage but two things could happen as a result:-
1. What Labour expects to happen, increase HMRC tax take
2. No increase in tax take, slight downturn in economy
Sorry Jack you can't have Hard Brexit and claim sound economic and political handling.
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“From a UK investor perspective, we believe that the domestic political situation is at least as significant as Brexit, given the fragile state of the current government and the perceived risks of an incoming Labour administration that could potentially embark on a radical change in policy direction."
I did see one vox pop where a lady at a speech said she 'didn't know much about politics but felt Corbyn was a really nice man'.
That the Corbyn cult could actually gain power is pretty scary.
Jaksan - so if Corbyn is a 'worst threat to business than Brexit' then clearly that means that Brexit itself is a threat to business. Pleased you are finally coming round to the recognition that the impact of Brexit will be negative on British business, and therefore on the economy and standard of living of people in Britain.
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So you yourself have answered the question with 2 possibilities. What more do you want 'members of the cult' to add. If it increases that will be good. If it goes down I would expect some further change in policy to rectify the situation.
If it increases without too much downturn then it would been good policy, you views of Corbyn will be vindicated, if not then your support of Corbyn would be lower?
Hypotheticals. Don't you just love 'em.
Yes you have to vote on the basis of hypotheticals.
Ps do you refer to the % of the population who voted for Theresa May as 'members of the cult'. Or perhaps there is an incorrect consonant in that phrase?
No other political parties tend to have a following that can defend the parties on the basis of argument.
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Other replies are whataboutery.
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If it increases without too much downturn then it would been good policy, you views of Corbyn will be vindicated, if not then your support of Corbyn would be lower?
No - my view wouldn't depend on one issue. I would not expect any government to get it right 100% of the time (if the current govt could get it up to about 25% I would be appreciative though). I would expect the government to respond if any given policy was not working effectively and supply an alternative strategy.
No other political parties tend to have a following that can defend the parties on the basis of argument
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that sentence - but if I am reading it correctly I don't know why the sentiment only applies to the Labour party.
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No - my view wouldn't depend on one issue. I would not expect any government to get it right 100% of the time (if the current govt could get it up to about 25% I would be appreciative though). I would expect the government to respond if any given policy was not working effectively and supply an alternative strategy.
I know your view won't change entirely on one issue, your view would change over time after several issues. I'm sure many people of Venezuela thought Socialism was groovy at the start but slowly over time views changed.
Why I asked if your support would be lower.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that sentence - but if I am reading it correctly I don't know why the sentiment only applies to the Labour party.
It applies more to Corbyn supporters, many of whom can't cite a policy but think he's nice guy. Seems to me the next Prime Minister will have more in common with Celebrity Big Brother than I'd like.
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If it increases without too much downturn then it would been good policy, you views of Corbyn will be vindicated, if not then your support of Corbyn would be lower?
Yes you have to vote on the basis of hypotheticals.
No other political parties tend to have a following that can defend the parties on the basis of argument.
Do they? Can you show evidence for your assertion?
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I know your view won't change entirely on one issue, your view would change over time after several issues. I'm sure many people of Venezuela thought Socialism was groovy at the start but slowly over time views changed.
Why I asked if your support would be lower.
It applies more to Corbyn supporters, many of whom can't cite a policy but think he's nice guy. Seems to me the next Prime Minister will have more in common with Celebrity Big Brother than I'd like.
And a further assertion.
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No other political parties tend to have a following that can defend the parties on the basis of argument.
I don't think that is true at all. I think all, or certainly most, parties have a major block of supporters whose support is based on nothing more that 'I've always votes Tory/Labour/SNP etc' (delete as applicable). In many cases this isn't based on any kind of actual assessment of policies, rather on a kind of broad ideological mood music (Labour are for the working class/Tories help people get on/I'm for independence) rather than detail - or based on rather crude assessment of 'leadership' - Kinnock (Welsh windbag), Miliband (can't eat a bacon sandwich), Hague (wears baseball cap round the wrong way).
So sure there are plenty of people for whom Corbyn is a kind of personality cult, but he's not alone in that (remember Clegg-mania). Actually given that his politics are somewhat distinct from what we've been used to I actually think there may be rather more people than you care to imagine who are energised by him, not on personality, but because they actually see someone finally leading a major party whose politics align with their own.
Don't forget that I am no fan of Corbyn and left the party because of him - but I know plenty of people in the political wilderness since Blair who now have a political home (based on policies not personality) back in the Labour party.
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Do they? Can you show evidence for your assertion?
Evidence is anecdotal, maybe my perception is off, are you a Corbyn supporter, would you like to help?
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Evidence is anecdotal, maybe my perception is off, are you a Corbyn supporter, would you like to help?
So it's not evidence, it's you just making an assertion and stating it as a fact.
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I don't think that is true at all. I think all, or certainly most, parties have a major block of supporters whose support is based on nothing more that 'I've always votes Tory/Labour/SNP etc' (delete as applicable). In many cases this isn't based on any kind of actual assessment of policies, rather on a kind of broad ideological mood music (Labour are for the working class/Tories help people get on/I'm for independence) rather than detail - or based on rather crude assessment of 'leadership' - Kinnock (Welsh windbag), Miliband (can't eat a bacon sandwich), Hague (wears baseball cap round the wrong way).
Yes fair point.
So sure there are plenty of people for whom Corbyn is a kind of personality cult, but he's not alone in that (remember Clegg-mania). Actually given that his politics are somewhat distinct from what we've been used to I actually think there may be rather more people than you care to imagine who are energised by him, not on personality, but because they actually see someone finally leading a major party whose politics align with their own.
Yes you've put it better than me.
Don't forget that I am no fan of Corbyn and left the party because of him - but I know plenty of people in the political wilderness since Blair who now have a political home (based on policies not personality) back in the Labour party.
Yes could be.
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So it's not evidence,
Actually it is if you want me to explain this to you let me know. Its not very good evidence I concede.
it's you just making an assertion and stating it as a fact.
Not really, stating my opinion perhaps should have made that clearer.
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Yes could be.
Not could be - is.
Prof. Diddy left because of Corbyn; I joined because of him (the day he was elected leader, September 2015), as did thousands. (Labour membership as of June 2017: 552,000).
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Actually it is if you want me to explain this to you let me know. Its not very good evidence I concede.
Pretty poor evidence I think - you seem to be taking you view from the current media perception rather than actual interaction with those that actually support Corbyn. Don't forget that the 'movement' started well before he was elected as leader in Sept 2015. There was a big push via a range of left wing political organisations to get people to join the Labour party or to be a £3 person allowed to vote. The people are politically engaged and were getting on board because of his policies, not as some kind of personality cult. Indeed they probably would have joined to support any of the hard-left 'likely contenders' - e.g. Abbot, McDonnell etc. They may be politically naive, they may be living in cloud cuckoo land, but their clear motivation was about politics and policy, not about personality.
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Not could be - is.
Prof. Diddy left because of Corbyn; I joined because of him (the day he was elected leader), as did thousands. (Labour membership as of June 2017: 552,000).
That's right, and many joined before he was elected to help to ensure he won.
I genuinely don't think, at that stage, there was much about personality - it was all about supporting someone with political views that had been out of the mainstream for decades. As Shaker points out there were thousands of people who had for years felt their were disenfranchised from mainstream politics - this was their route back in. And (from my personal experience) many had spent those wilderness years in the SWP and other fringe hard-left parties, selling Socialist Worker on the streets, attending political rallies (e.g. Stop the War etc), organising local political meetings (attended by five blokes and a dog etc).
He is largely tapping into a political movement, not a personality movement.
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Maybe Jack, in years to come when Thatcherism is a mere memory, when it no longer seems economic sense to impoverish the majority then there may be a case for voting for a Blajorite conservatism.
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Maybe Jack, in years to come when Thatcherism is a mere memory, when it no longer seems economic sense to impoverish the majority then there may be a case for voting for a Blajorite conservatism.
Comrade,
I doubt neo-liberal politics will die, the EU being such a big supporter of such policies.
Besides as the memories of the horrors of 1970 Socialism die the politics that gave rise to the nightmare are reborn.
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Besides as the memories of the horrors of 1970 Socialism die the politics that gave rise to the nightmare are reborn.
Were the 'horrors' of 1970s socialism any worse than the 'horrors' of 1980s capitalism under Thatcher.
Discuss.
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Comrade,
I doubt neo-liberal politics will die, the EU being such a big supporter of such policies.
Besides as the memories of the horrors of 1970 Socialism die the politics that gave rise to the nightmare are reborn.
Lord Swannington
Your Grace
You are a masochistic fantasist if you think I am advocating a return to Economic Stalinism.
The sad truth is though is that Right wingers and old etonians cannot be trusted to rebalance economies.
Thatcher did a major coup by limiting the unions but suffered from a vindictiveness.
Cameron was all about what an Etonian could achieve if he remembered what he was entitled to.
Fast forward to today where the life of the poor person is reduced to clothes and shoes by Jacob Rees Mogg for whom a Dickensian Britain is the Norm. I wonder if JRM expects to wake up back in a history lesson in 1990 or whenever.
So a rebalancing to revive the economy is necessary, now before an extensive reintroduction of a command economy is needed.
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Were the 'horrors' of 1970s socialism any worse than the 'horrors' of 1980s capitalism under Thatcher.
Discuss.
They were both unpleasant episodes in UK political history.
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They were both unpleasant episodes in UK political history.
Possibly - however I think that the changes in the 80s have had a far longer negative impact. For example the banking crash in 2007 which has effectively flat-lined our personal prosperity can be traced directly back to the flagship banking deregulation of the 80s. Likewise the many 'lost' communities we now have up and down the country, where long standing industry and jobs were hollowed out in the 80s without any plan for regeneration. Much of the discontent that lead to the brexit vote can be laid at the door of those two factors - abandoned communities that starting blaming 'foreigners' despite the fact that many had just about the least proportion of immigrants in their area, plus the exhaustion of years and years of austerity due to the failure of banking deregulation.
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Were the 'horrors' of 1970s socialism any worse than the 'horrors' of 1980s capitalism under Thatcher.
No. Because the horrors of both have been mythicised. I was 13 when Callaghan got kicked out and my memory of that Labour government is one of economic chaos such as rampant inflation and strikes and and is totally distorted by the Winter of Discontent. However, if you look back on it objectively, it really wasn't all that bad.
Similarly, almost everything we "know" about the Thatcher years is a myth. For example, everybody thinks she destroyed British industry even though, apart from the recession at the beginning of her term, it grew every year she was in office. Similarly, the NHS budget, on average grew by 3% per year (in real terms).
As for Jeremy Corbyn, I do not fear him being elected at all, excepting that he is a Brexiteer. He has some naive ideas about taxation, but I think we need to pay more taxes. He has some other "radical" ideas, but he won't be able to implement them. In fact, once the is in power, I predict he won't be able to do much of anything. I think he's completely incompetent.