Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Humph Warden Bennett on December 05, 2017, 02:51:41 PM
-
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/05/facebook-bans-women-posting-men-are-scum-harassment-scandals-comedian-marcia-belsky-abuse
Good.
-
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/05/facebook-bans-women-posting-men-are-scum-harassment-scandals-comedian-marcia-belsky-abuse
Good.
Facebook should also ban posts, which treat women as subservient to the male of the species, or those who make unpleasant comments about homosexuality.
-
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/05/facebook-bans-women-posting-men-are-scum-harassment-scandals-comedian-marcia-belsky-abuse
Good.
Good that it makes men look like special snowflakes while allowing rape threats and the n word to stand? Well, if you say so, but it doesn’t float my boat.
By the way you’ve made a spelling mistake in your thread title.
-
By the way you’ve made a spelling mistake in your thread title.
I used the feminine version :)
-
I used the feminine version :)
Why? It’s a word that’s no longer in use.
-
Apparently a feminist comedienne was about to appear on stage but couldn't because she 'felt a little funny'. Her manager told her to get on before it wore off.
-
Apparently a feminist comedienne was about to appear on stage but couldn't because she 'felt a little funny'. Her manager told her to get on before it wore off.
I didn’t realise you were a misogynist on top of everything else, Vlad.
-
Why? It’s a word that’s no longer in use.
It's still in the OED, even if it's not used at Friday Night Womens Action Group meetings.
-
I didn’t realise you were a misogynist on top of everything else, Vlad.
Why, I have used the same joke against several male comediennes. Are you saying that comedians should not have jokes made at their expense?
Can you therefore retract your accusation of misogyny, please?
-
It's still in the OED, even if it's not used at Friday Night Womens Action Group meetings.
It’s also not used by anyone other than those who wish to belittle these days. Plenty of archaic words still appear in dictionaries. Your point?
-
Why, I have used the same joke against several male comediennes. Are you saying that comedians should not have jokes made at their expense?
Can you therefore retract your accusation of misogyny, please?
Male comediennes?
-
It’s also not used by anyone other than those who wish to belittle these days. Plenty of archaic words still appear in dictionaries. Your point?
What started as a tweet from comedienne Emma Knyckare quickly gained traction, culminating in a Kickstarter to raise funds for a female-only festival.
—
Kat Bein, Billboard, "Sweden to Host World's Largest Women-Only Music Festival in 2018," 10 Oct. 2017
:D
-
What started as a tweet from comedienne Emma Knyckare quickly gained traction, culminating in a Kickstarter to raise funds for a female-only festival.
—
Kat Bein, Billboard, "Sweden to Host World's Largest Women-Only Music Festival in 2018," 10 Oct. 2017
:D
I’m still not getting your point. Someone misusing the term justifies you doing so? The article that you link to uses the term ‘comedian’. Why did you change it?
-
Male comediennes?
Will you please remove your accusation of misogyny.
-
Will you please remove your accusation of misogyny.
Will you please explain what a male commedienne is?
-
Will you please explain what a male commedienne is?
Are you going to remove your accusation of Misogyny?
-
It's still in the OED, even if it's not used at Friday Night Womens Action Group meetings.
You come over as a sexist and homophobic Moderator: content removed ! >:(
-
Are you going to remove your accusation of Misogyny?
Your comment about ‘male comediennes’ does throw up a different possibility around your post and suggests that you don’t know the difference between the words ‘comedienne’ and ‘comedian’. But seeing as you won’t clarify which I don’t really have any option other than to stick with my original view.
If you want me to change it you have to actually explain what you mean.
-
You come over as a sexist and homophobic Moderator: quoted content removed >:(
Where did you get that from?
A comedienne is a female person who tells jokes and is funny in front of an audience.
A comedian is a male....... " " " " " " " " " " " "
'Comic' is the gender neutral term.
Then there are 'comedones'...teenage comics.
-
I’m still not getting your point. Someone misusing the term justifies you doing so?
It seems to be in more common usage than you might think.
I have seen it used by BBC, Sky, ITV, The Independent, the Guardian and others.
-
Why? It’s a word that’s no longer in use.
Yes it is (still in use that is).
-
I didn’t realise you were a misogynist on top of everything else, Vlad.
He says that joke about everybody.
-
Where did you get that from?
A comedienne is a female person who tells jokes and is funny in front of an audience.
A comedian is a male....... " " " " " " " " " " " "
'Comic' is the gender neutral term.
Then there are 'comedones'...teenage comics.
"Comedian" is now frequently used to refer to either male or female comics. It's the same as the distinction between "actor" and "actress". People generally don't talk about actresses anymore, even though it is much less of a mouthful than "female actor".
-
I'm aware of that but still hear the words, "Comedienne", and, "Actress" used. I didn't realise there was such controversy about it & don't understand why.
-
I'm aware of that but still hear the words, "Comedienne", and, "Actress" used. I didn't realise there was such controversy about it & don't understand why.
The only reason ‘actress’ still exists as a term is because of industry awards - the Oscars for example. Maybe it’s because I avoid the right wing press that I haven’t heard the term ‘comedienne’ since Jenny Eclair started out.
But let’s look at this in context. First, feminist comedians aren’t going to use the term. Humph did. Secondly, the Graun used the term ‘comedian’. Humph changed it. We know Humph doesn’t like feminism, he’s made that clear in numerous posts. Therefore I think it is reasonable to take the view that he used the word calculatedly to demean.
What I am really pissed with myself about is in that pointing it out the fact that Humph thinks it’s a good thing that women trying to stand up to rape threats get banned on FB when others doing far worse don’t has got lost. Until there’s a level playing field this isn’t right. It’s not a good thing.
-
Apparently a feminist comedienne was about to appear on stage but couldn't because she 'felt a little funny'. Her manager told her to get on before it wore off.
That one wasn't funny the first seven or eight times you used it. It's worn out, if you can't get a new one stop trying.
-
Are you going to remove your accusation of Misogyny?
Why should they?
When are you going to remove all your lies about what Christ said and did (allegedly)
-
He says that joke about everybody.
But not in a way that refers to their sex.
-
I'm aware of that but still hear the words, "Comedienne", and, "Actress" used. I didn't realise there was such controversy about it & don't understand why.
No neither do I. I'm just explaining the situation.
-
Just running this past my girls, they didn’t even know there’s a feminine firm of the word ‘comedian’. It’s as outdated as Benny Hill.
-
Thanks jeremy.
(Rhi, who's, or where's Benny Hill? ;))
-
Thanks jeremy.
(Rhi, who's, or where's Benny Hill? ;))
Gone from our screens but still working with Tommy Cooper and the Two Ronnies.
-
We have something to look forward to then :D.
-
I'm aware of that but still hear the words, "Comedienne", and, "Actress" used. I didn't realise there was such controversy about it & don't understand why.
Because the sex of the person is irrelevant. And it's not something just about performers. It's been a staple argument in feminism that job titles shouldn't be about the sex of the person doing it.
-
"Comedian" is now frequently used to refer to either male or female comics. It's the same as the distinction between "actor" and "actress". People generally don't talk about actresses anymore, even though it is much less of a mouthful than "female actor".
Why would they need to use the term "female actor" as opposed to actor?
-
Because the sex of the person is irrelevant. And it's not something just about performers. It's been a staple argument in feminism that job titles shouldn't be about the sex of the person doing it.
Police officer.
Firefighter
Head teacher.
Etc etc etc.
When a term is deliberately used that feminists object to in a thread about feminists, there’s a reason.
-
Why would they need to use the term "female actor" as opposed to actor?
The Oscars/Baftas etc.
An industry well known for supporting women. Oh no, it’s the other thing. Not supporting them. That one.
-
We have something to look forward to then :D.
You want to see the length of the queue for tickets!
-
Just running this past my girls, they didn’t even know there’s a feminine firm of the word ‘comedian’. It’s as outdated as Benny Hill.
Yet still used by many major communications companies!?
-
Yet still used by many major communications companies!?
I haven't seen it in a while and even if it is, it wasn't in the article. Further as already covered, this type of gender specifuc titling is something that has been fought against as part of feminism consistently.
-
Police officer.
Firefighter
Head teacher.
Etc etc etc.
When a term is deliberately used that feminists object to in a thread about feminists, there’s a reason.
Agree, and given it took a specific change from the article, it is underlined here.
-
I haven't seen it in a while and even if it is, it wasn't in the article. Further as already covered, this type of gender specifuc titling is something that has been fought against as part of feminism consistently.
All I was pointing out is that if it is used by BBC SKY ITV Independent Guardian etc then it perhaps nor as archaic as stated.
-
All I was pointing out is that if it is used by BBC SKY ITV Independent Guardian etc then it perhaps nor as archaic as stated.
I think archaic is the wrong term but certainly it is out of favour, and the deliberate use here and the tone of the posts seem to be designed to show a sexist approach.
-
I think archaic is the wrong term but certainly it is out of favour, and the deliberate use here and the tone of the posts seem to be designed to show a sexist approach.
Anachronistic?
-
Anachronistic?
Yep, that makes sense. Tbh, I don't see what we call the use of the term important. If someone were on the comedy circuit, it would be looked on with horror and mere wummery.
-
If someone were on the comedy circuit, it would be looked on with horror and mere wummery.
Currently described comedy artist on circuit;
http://www.chortle.co.uk/comics/l/33955/lou_sanders
From the current British comedy guide
http://tinyurl.com/ybw6kuhj
A poster from the Edinburgh Festival this year
http://tinyurl.com/y94msfg9
More from the Festival
http://tinyurl.com/ycjrv2ft
-
Currently described comedy artist on circuit;
http://www.chortle.co.uk/comics/l/33955/lou_sanders
From the current British comedy guide
http://tinyurl.com/ybw6kuhj
A poster from the Edinburgh Festival this year
http://tinyurl.com/y94msfg9
More from the Festival
http://tinyurl.com/ycjrv2ft
Good points. It just seems odd to me given how much comedy I heard talking about there being no difference. I am surprised at it being used by The Stand.
-
Why would they need to use the term "female actor" as opposed to actor?
There are situations still where you need to distinguish the gender.
"Sarah Bernhardt was the first actor to play Hamlet" - blatantly untrue
"Sarah Bernhardt was the first actress to play Hamlet" - a notable point
-
Anachronistic?
No, just "out of favour" works pretty well.
The thing is, you are busy here trying to police people's language and it has derailed the thread which was about something far more important than "are we allowed to say comedienne?", namely Facebook's apparently sexist behaviour against a female comedian.
-
You come over as a sexist and homophobic Moderator: content removed ! >:(
I fail to see how using a feminine term to describe women makes me a sexist and homophobic Moderator content removed.
-
The only reason ‘actress’ still exists as a term is because of industry awards - the Oscars for example. Maybe it’s because I avoid the right wing press that I haven’t heard the term ‘comedienne’ since Jenny Eclair started out.
But let’s look at this in context. First, feminist comedians aren’t going to use the term. Humph did. Secondly, the Graun used the term ‘comedian’. Humph changed it. We know Humph doesn’t like feminism, he’s made that clear in numerous posts. Therefore I think it is reasonable to take the view that he used the word calculatedly to demean.
That is ridiculous. I used the correct term to describe a female who works in comedy, if anything it is you who wants to assume that the masculine form is the default.
What I am really pissed with myself about is in that pointing it out the fact that Humph thinks it’s a good thing that women trying to stand up to rape threats get banned on FB when others doing far worse don’t has got lost. Until there’s a level playing field this isn’t right. It’s not a good thing.
It was not women who were standing up to rape who were banned, it was women who referred to men as "scum" who were banned.
-
There are situations still where you need to distinguish the gender.
"Sarah Bernhardt was the first actor to play Hamlet" - blatantly untrue
"Sarah Bernhardt was the first actress to play Hamlet" - a notable point
Fair point but that would be very rare, and indeed you don't need to use the term actress/female actor there, you could just use female.
-
No, just "out of favour" works pretty well.
The thing is, you are busy here trying to police people's language
Not that that I think Rhiannon was doing any such thing, but other forms of language are 'policed' (racist terms; homophobic epithets; encouraging/glorifying terrorism etc.) and I assume (but don't know) that you have no problem with that. So the issue you have presumably isn't with the policing of language.
-
Fair point but that would be very rare, and indeed you don't need to use the term actress/female actor there, you could just use female.
So, there is a simple and precise word which immediately indicated all the features of the individual which are appropriate in this circumstance. Why force people to use a more complex construction to provide exactly the same information? This is one of the sillier outcomes in recent times of perceived "political correctness" influencing the way in which people use language.
Are you (and those you are siding with) saying that a language such as French or German (which uses cases - called "genders" - which classifies nouns and adjectives as "masculine" or "feminine" because they reflect the sex of the individual to whom they refer) is anachronistic and sexist?
In French, a male actor is either acteur or comedien and a female actor is either actrice or comedienne.
-
That is ridiculous. I used the correct term to describe a female who works in comedy, if anything it is you who wants to assume that the masculine form is the default.
For those of us not from the 1930s there's no longer a perceived need to distinguish in career terms on the basis of sex. There are no 'masculine' or 'feminine' terms - actor is quite sufficient for anyone, male, female or transgender, working in that profession. To distinguish between a male actor and a female actor serves what purpose, precisely? (Possibly the largest organisation for thespians in the US is SAG - the Screen Actors Guild. It's not called SA&AG. As Rhiannon pointed out AMPAS still uses the term actress for some reason). We don't have sex-differentiating terms in other fields - doctoresses or teacherennes - or if we did we've consigned them to history's dustbin so I see no need why we should cling on to the few unfortunate examples that did arise. Goodness knows why - possibly because until relatively recently in historical terms women weren't even allowed to act professionally or do many other things. Do you think that might be something to do with it?
-
Why should they?
When are you going to remove all your lies about what Christ said and did (allegedly)
Ha Ha Ha He He He Ho Ho Ho.
-
So, there is a simple and precise word which immediately indicated all the features of the individual which are appropriate in this circumstance. Why force people to use a more complex construction to provide exactly the same information? This is one of the sillier outcomes in recent times of perceived "political correctness" influencing the way in which people use language.
Lock the thread, we have a winner!
-
So, there is a simple and precise word which immediately indicated all the features of the individual which are appropriate in this circumstance. Why force people to use a more complex construction to provide exactly the same information? This is one of the sillier outcomes in recent times of perceived "political correctness" influencing the way in which people use language.
Are you (and those you are siding with) saying that a language such as French or German (which uses cases - called "genders" - which classifies nouns and adjectives as "masculine" or "feminine" because they reflect the sex of the individual to whom they refer) is anachronistic and sexist?
In French, a male actor is either acteur or comedien and a female actor is either actrice or comedienne.
See Shaker's rep!y to Humph. Why do I need to be told the gender of a person doing a job by the title?
-
See Shaker's rep!y to Humph. Why do I need to be told the gender of a person doing a job by the title?
Are folk not making a wee fuss over this because they like being linguistic policemen?
-
Are folk not making a wee fuss over this because they like being linguistic policemen?
Surely the question is whether it is a valid point, not what strange motivations you have decided to attribute to people?
-
See Shaker's rep!y to Humph. Why do I need to be told the gender of a person doing a job by the title?
In ninety nine times out of a hundred - you don't.
And by the way, you mean "sex" not "gender".
(Off topic and not (I hope) a derail, but Vlad has now had more reincarnations than Dr Who.)
-
For those of us not from the 1930s
Shaker, fighting a faux sexism with ageism..........I demand this forum change it's name to ''Atheists say the Darnedest things'' immediately!
-
In ninety nine times out of a hundred - you don't.
And by the way, you mean "sex" not "gender".
(Off topic and not (I hope) a derail, but Vlad has now had more reincarnations than Dr Who.)
Am I allowed to mention I am now played by an actress?
-
In ninety nine times out of a hundred - you don't.
What would the one exception be?
-
possibly because until relatively recently in historical terms women weren't even allowed to act professionally or do many other things. Do you think that might be something to do with it?
That was the Restoration. How old are you? :o
-
That was the Restoration. How old are you? :o
Considerably younger than you, evidently.
As for the other things, it was 1876 before a woman could officially qualify as a doctor. (Elizabeth Anderson did so first in 1865 but had to have a cunning plan to sneak in round the back). And then there's suffrage ...
-
[quote author=Rhiannon link=topic=14936.msg708620#msg708620 date=151250087
What I am really pissed with myself about is in that pointing it out the fact that Humph thinks it’s a good thing that women trying to stand up to rape threats get banned on FB when others doing far worse don’t has got lost. Until there’s a level playing field this isn’t right. It’s not a good thing.
[/quote]
I think Facebook policy is to ban both. I skim read the article but the ban was not for defending rape threats but for hate speech?
-
Shaker, fighting a faux sexism with ageism..........I demand this forum change it's name to ''Atheists say the Darnedest things'' immediately!
In that case I demand that it be changed to "Christians talk total rubbish"
-
Fair point but that would be very rare, and indeed you don't need to use the term actress/female actor there, you could just use female.
I would argue that you need to convey that Bernhardt was both female and an actor. In fact, you might say it needs to be emphasised that we are talking about professional actors.
-
Not that that I think Rhiannon was doing any such thing,
Of course she was. She's trying to admonish people for using the word "comedienne"
but other forms of language are 'policed' (racist terms; homophobic epithets; encouraging/glorifying terrorism etc.) and I assume (but don't know) that you have no problem with that. So the issue you have presumably isn't with the policing of language.
No I am very uncomfortable with the idea of policing language.
-
What would the one exception be?
If you are discussing which Oscar an actor is up for and who they are up against.
If you are casting a role that is explicitly one gender or the other.
If you are trying to explain why the casting of the actor for the Thirteenth Doctor is a landmark.
If you're trying to explain why a particular comedian being banned from Facebook is unfair.
-
... We don't have sex-differentiating terms in other fields - doctoresses or teacherennes - or if we did we've consigned them to history's dustbin so I see no need why we should cling on to the few unfortunate examples that did arise. Goodness knows why - possibly because until relatively recently in historical terms women weren't even allowed to act professionally or do many other things. Do you think that might be something to do with it?
Presumably the sex-differentiation terms came about in precisely those cases where sex did make a difference. Dispense with them where it no longer does. Never any point in "comedienne" as opposed to comedian though.
"Facebook moderator" must be a predominantly male career I expect.
-
If you are discussing which Oscar an actor is up for and who they are up against.
Circular argument. That's merely because of the Academy's continued insistence on using the word 'actress', not a justification that they're right to do so. It's an is but not an ought. Simple solution - don't. Best Actor Oscar covers everyone. Job done.
If you are casting a role that is explicitly one gender or the other.
Like Hamlet, for instance?
If you are trying to explain why the casting of the actor for the Thirteenth Doctor is a landmark.
You're doing a sterling job of making my case for me. Why is it a landmark? Casting of the what?
If you're trying to explain why a particular comedian being banned from Facebook is unfair.
A particular what?
-
Circular argument. That's merely because of the Academy's continued insistence on using the word 'actress', not a justification that they're right to do so. It's an is but not an ought. Simple solution - don't. Best Actor Oscar covers everyone. Job done.
You may find the last paragraph of this interview interesting:
https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2017/nov/19/denise-gough-people-places-and-things-new-york-angels-in-america-interview
-
You may find the last paragraph of this interview interesting
Any particular reason why? It's one person's opinion - others are available. Here's another one:
As Whoopi Goldberg put it in an interview with the paper: 'An actress can only play a woman. I'm an actor – I can play anything.'
-
What is wrong with the word 'actress'?! It is a legitimate word in the dictionary..... ???
Actor (Male)...Actor (Female)...rubbish!! ::)
-
What is wrong with the word 'actress'?!
It needlessly distinguishes on the grounds of sex something that has nothing to do with sex.
It is a legitimate word in the dictionary..... ???
Plenty of words are in the dictionary that you wouldn't care to be called.
Actor (Male)...Actor (Female)...rubbish!! ::)
I'll take your opinion seriously when it's worth something.
https://tinyurl.com/y9vbcjsp
-
So what if it distinguishes? Distinguishing is not discrimination!
-
So what if it distinguishes?
What point does so distinguishing serve? What's it for? What does it do?
Distinguishing is not discrimination!
But frequently is.
-
Don't be silly Shaker! In that case all gender distinguishing features in all languages should be removed. Like they did in some school...everyone should be referred to as 'Hen' or something. LOL!!!!
-
Don't be silly Shaker!
You first.
In that case all gender distinguishing features in all languages should be removed. Like they did in some school...everyone should be referred to as 'Hen' or something. LOL!!!!
I've no opinion in particular on that as while I've heard of it, I don't know enough about it. In any case it's irrelevant to the point that there's no need to distinguish between actors on the grounds of sex any more than there is between doctors or teachers.
-
Circular argument. That's merely because of the Academy's continued insistence on using the word 'actress', not a justification that they're right to do so. It's an is but not an ought. Simple solution - don't. Best Actor Oscar covers everyone. Job done.
No, it's because there is a continued insistence by Hollywood that there be separate categories for male and female actors.
Like Hamlet, for instance?
Hamlet has been played by women several times as far as I'm aware. However, it is still much more common to want to cast a man in the role, or a woman in the role of Ophelia.
You're doing a sterling job of making my case for me. Why is it a landmark? Casting of the what?
A female actor aka actress.
A particular what?
It says right there. Also see the first post in this thread.
-
In any case it's irrelevant to the point that there's no need to distinguish between actors on the grounds of sex
Except that sometimes there is.
-
Definitely there are times when the sex of an actor needs to be known (Lady Macbeth for example), but think their CV plus photograph would show that.
-
Definitely there are times when the sex of an actor needs to be known (Lady Macbeth for example), but think their CV plus photograph would show that.
Yes but if you are advertising for the role of Lady Macbeth, wouldn't you say "only female actors need apply"? Or if you were planning a gender reversed version of Macbeth (and why not?) wouldn't you say "only male actors need apply"?
What about Othello? It is an intrinsic part of the character that he is black. Wouldn't you advertise only for black male actors unless you want to run the gauntlet of putting a white actor in blackface? (I saw the Orson Welles Othello (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello_(1951_film)) as part of my Eng. Lit. O Level and it was, frankly, embarrassing, even back in the 80's, even in black and white.)
-
No, it's because there is a continued insistence by Hollywood that there be separate categories for male and female actors.
Which demonstrates nothing but the fact that Hollywood needs to get its act together in more ways than one.
Hamlet has been played by women several times as far as I'm aware. However, it is still much more common to want to cast a man in the role, or a woman in the role of Ophelia.
So it's more common. Sorry, I'm not dazzled by the force of your argument yet.
A female actor aka actress.
The 'female' is redundant.
-
Yes but if you are advertising for the role of Lady Macbeth, wouldn't you say "only female actors need apply"? Or if you were planning a gender reversed version of Macbeth (and why not?) wouldn't you say "only male actors need apply"?
What about Othello? It is an intrinsic part of the character that he is black. Wouldn't you advertise only for black male actors unless you want to run the gauntlet of putting a white actor in blackface? (I saw the Orson Welles Othello (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello_(1951_film)) as part of my Eng. Lit. O Level and it was, frankly, embarrassing, even back in the 80's, even in black and white.)
I think you have to be careful of seeing everything that is an analogy as the same. Part of the issue with major roles with a race aspect is that they were predominantly played by people who were blacked/browned up. I noted on the Shashi Kapoor thread that I went to a Q&A at the Glasgow Film theatre with Felicity Kendal. She was touring in Othello as Desdemona playing opposite Paul Schofield who blacked up and did a CampDown Ladies minstrel accent.
-
I think you have to be careful of seeing everything that is an analogy as the same. Part of the issue with major roles with a race aspect is that they were predominantly played by people who were blacked/browned up. I noted on the Shashi Kapoor thread that I went to a Q&A at the Glasgow Film theatre with Felicity Kendal. She was touring in Othello as Desdemona playing opposite Paul Schofield who blacked up and did a CampDown Ladies minstrel accent.
Is it necessary to know the gender of the CampDown ladies?
-
Not when the song is called Camptown Races, no ;)
-
Not when the song is called Camptown Races, no ;)
Nor is it a relevant correction.
-
Yes but if you are advertising for the role of Lady Macbeth, wouldn't you say "only female actors need apply"? Or if you were planning a gender reversed version of Macbeth (and why not?) wouldn't you say "only male actors need apply"?
What about Othello? It is an intrinsic part of the character that he is black. Wouldn't you advertise only for black male actors unless you want to run the gauntlet of putting a white actor in blackface? (I saw the Orson Welles Othello (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello_(1951_film)) as part of my Eng. Lit. O Level and it was, frankly, embarrassing, even back in the 80's, even in black and white.)
I have to assume that you are acting like an idiot, 'cos I'm damn sure you're not one.
If you are casting Lady Macbeth or Othello, unless you stipulate otherwise 99.99% of the acting profession will not need to be advised which sex applicants are required.
I would also lay bets that even MTF or FTM, respectively, applicants, if their acting was up to the level required, would be welcomed to audition with open arms and probably without questions.
-
In ninety nine times out of a hundred - you don't.
And by the way, you mean "sex" not "gender".
(Off topic and not (I hope) a derail, but Vlad has now had more reincarnations than Dr Who.)
I know that it makes sense here to say that sex is what is meant rather than gender but surely male/female acting roles given their fluidity are a gender construct rather than a sex one?
-
Yes but if you are advertising for the role of Lady Macbeth, wouldn't you say "only female actors need apply"? Or if you were planning a gender reversed version of Macbeth (and why not?) wouldn't you say "only male actors need apply"?
Yes I would.
What about Othello? It is an intrinsic part of the character that he is black. Wouldn't you advertise only for black male actors unless you want to run the gauntlet of putting a white actor in blackface? (I saw the Orson Welles Othello (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Othello_(1951_film)) as part of my Eng. Lit. O Level and it was, frankly, embarrassing, even back in the 80's, even in black and white.)
Yes I would to your first para.
Re your second paragraph, I too would have been acutely embarrassed but fact is many white actors played Othello including Olivier.
Hugh Quarshie turned down the role of Othello on the grounds it was tokenism and patronage.
Can't win really.
-
Yes I would.
Yes I would to your first para.
Re your second paragraph, I too would have been acutely embarrassed but fact is many white actors played Othello including Olivier.
Hugh Quarshie turned down the role of Othello on the grounds it was tokenism and patronage.
Can't win really.
I think playing Othello if you aren't black is fine in many ways, as long as you don't do the blacking up and weird accent. I'm not really sure who 'can't win' in your comment.
And actors of a different race have an equal chance to be cast as Hamlet as Olivier or Jackson
-
I think playing Othello if you aren't black is fine in many ways, as long as you don't do the blacking up and weird accent. I'm not really sure who 'can't win' in your comment.
Anyone who just wants a good actor to get on and give a fine performance of Othello, I suspect.
White actors have blacked up and been slaughtered for it (Oliver's monumentally hammy eye-rolling Othello was notoriously reviewed in one headline as 'Hello Golly') whereas at least one black actor has turned down the role, deeming it tokenism.
-
People stipulating the requirement of a particular sex of an acting professional, or a comic, can't win whether they say "actor/actress' or 'comedian/comedienne'.
I will ask some people younger than myself what they feel about this issue.
-
People stipulating the requirement of a particular sex of an acting professional, or a comic, can't win whether they say "actor/actress' or 'comedian/comedienne'.
I will ask some people younger than myself what they feel about this issue.
Why can't they 'win'? I am sorry but I really am at a loss what you are trying to say. What is it that you see as a problem? Note I am not saying there isn't one, just not sure what you think is the problem.
-
Why can't they 'win'? I am sorry but I really am at a loss what you are trying to say. What is it that you see as a problem? Note I am not saying there isn't one, just not sure what you think is the problem.
Perhaps it's that people who think they're doing the right thing by being inclusive in using gender-neutral terms don't know where to stand when they read comments such as those provided in a link earlier from a female actor who says that the term actress has been hard won and should be celebrated.
-
Exactly, Shaker.
-
Thought so ;)
-
Perhaps it's that people who think they're doing the right thing by being inclusive in using gender-neutral terms don't know where to stand when they read comments such as those provided in a link earlier from a female actor who says that the term actress has been hard won and should be celebrated.
So who isn't winning by the discussion being had? If we want to admit there isn't a simple solution fine, but the whole 'you can't win' approach is used to denigrate the discussion in the first place, in my reading.
-
Oh for Heaven's sakes, whatever anyone says there will be someone who is offended. Though quite honestly I don't know anyone who would be offended by the term, "Actress" or, "Actor", however it's obviously an issue to some or there wouldn't be this thread.
-
Going back to the opening post, Humph, it appears that people think FB is not even handed when it comes to banning people. The women who posted unpleasant remarks about men were banned, rightly, but men who have posted similar stuff about women have not been banned - also some racist remarks have been allowed. That's what I gleaned from the article and the tweets beneath. (So glad I haven't got involved in facebook.)
(PS: I know I'm stating the obvious but the thread seems to have gone off topic.)
-
Going back to the opening post, Humph, it appears that people think FB is not even handed when it comes to banning people. The women who posted unpleasant remarks about men were banned, rightly, but men who have posted similar stuff about women have not been banned - also some racist remarks have been allowed. That's what I gleaned from the article and the tweets beneath. (So glad I haven't got involved in facebook.)
(PS: I know I'm stating the obvious but the thread seems to have gone off topic.)
The women who were banned made a huge fuss about how they had made unpleasant comments about the XY community, they were leading with their chins.
Nobody with even half a brain would defend the anonymous nonentities who make bad comments about women, men, blacks, whites, tans, yellows, disabled, one parent families, etc, but they are mostly trolls who disappear when their break is over & they have to go back to work. They do not expect, nor should they, be hailed as being "clever" "witty" or "challenging".
-
I agree with you.