Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rhiannon on January 16, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
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Is Alec Baldwin right?
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/16/alec-baldwin-criticizes-stars-renouncing-woody-allen-unfair-and-sad
Or is Mira Sorvino?
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jan/11/mira-sorvino-woody-allen-dylan-farrow
Dylan Farrow's piece is a tough read.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-farrow-woody-allen-me-too-20171207-story.html
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Ok, in the light of Dylan Farrow's piece, how should we view Allen's work?
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View it as the inane meanderings of a deeply sad man that it has always been?
I've never understood the "appeal" of his films.
A view of his work doesn't have to be predicated on his alleged behaviour, allegations I tend to believe btw.
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I’ve not really engaged with his work so I can’t comment. But it is troubling how easily the allegation of ‘brainwashing’ by a jealous ex has stuck. And how little weight is given to the evidence of a child even now.
It’s strange that so many people will criticise Weinstein but not Allen.
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I’ve not really engaged with his work so I can’t comment. But it is troubling how easily the allegation of ‘brainwashing’ by a jealous ex has stuck. And how little weight is given to the evidence of a child even now.
It’s strange that so many people will criticise Weinstein but not Allen.
Wasn't the Woody Allen case tested in court?
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I've never quite come to terms with him going off with a seventeen year old daughter of Mia Farrow, with whom he lived - and everyone carrying on as though it was OK!
I never cared that much for his work but, if I had liked it, I suppose I might still like it up to a point, separating the man's work from his nastiness. Or maybe not, honestly don't know.
Dylan Farrow's article is heartbreaking.
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Wasn't the Woody Allen case tested in court?
No.
http://people.com/crime/woody-allen-wasnt-prosecuted-after-abuse-allegations-by-daughter-heres-why/
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A different take:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast
Woody Allen was never charged because the police couldn't put a case together. I think that leaves open the possibility that he didn't do it.
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A different take:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-woody-allen-allegations-not-so-fast
Woody Allen was never charged because the police couldn't put a case together. I think that leaves open the possibility that he didn't do it.
Hmmmmmm! That evil toe rag, Saville, was never charged either, unfortunately! :o
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Hmm, Jeremyp, never let the truth - wherever it lies - get in the way of a good story.
If the Weide account is accurate then it would seem that the "world" is more disposed to believing the account of an attractive woman than that of a ... well ... not particularly attractive man.
Truth is beauty and beauty truth!
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You are aware that Allen was denied access to his children by the family courts? Contrary to popular belief the vast majority of parents who are accused of abuse are given accesss it even custody; in the USA this is due largely to the discredited theory of Parental Alienation Syndrome, developed by a paedophile apologist. Although the syndrome itself can not be used in courts here ‘parental alienation’ is now hugely popular with CafCass in the UK family courts, who now start from the POV that women who claim that they and their children have been abused to so because the divorce is ‘high confkict’.
Why is it easier to believe that Mia Farrow, consumed by jealousy, groomed and coerced her daughter to lie to the point where it is still happening now, rather than the idea that Dylan Farrow is simply telling the truth? What happened to believing victims?
To sneer at this as a ‘good story’ is disgusting beyond belief. I cannot even begin to say how repulsive I find that or how angry it makes me.
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To sneer at this as a ‘good story’ is disgusting beyond belief. I cannot even begin to say how repulsive I find that or how angry it makes me.
I am not sneering. Why don't you read what I write instead of emoting about what you perceive to be my considerations?
I am merely saying that we do not know the truth. The Weide article - if nothing else - shows that public perceptions of the relationships involved in this sorry tale are confused and, in cases, incorrectly simplistic.
Mia Farrow's account may be true, But if it is not then why has it generally been accepted as true?
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I am not sneering. Why don't you read what I write instead of emoting about what you perceive to be my considerations?
I am merely saying that we do not know the truth. The Weide article - if nothing else - shows that public perceptions of the relationships involved in this sorry tale are confused and, in cases, incorrectly simplistic.
Mia Farrow's account may be true, But if it is not then why has it generally been accepted as true?
Don’t patronise me.
It’s not Mia Farrow’s account. It’s her child’s.
This is the latest word from the state prosecutor in Connecticut at the time.
‘We reached out to the former Connecticut prosecutor, Frank Maco. He told us that in his experience, "There was no manipulation by Mia Farrow." He adds nothing in the state police investigation indicated that Farrow was in any way being controlled or manipulated.’ On the CBS website.
Women who claim that their children are abused are rarely believed - so easy to claim jealousy and madness - even CafCass in this country start from that position. And the things that women do to try and protect their children - seeking therapy, recording incidents and comments - are seen as further evidence of coercion and parental alienation. You know one of the biggest thing used to discredit Mia Farrow? That she’s very close to her daughter. Like being close to a parent is abnormal.
Parental alienation undoubtedly exists; it’s the narcissistic/antisocial abusers who specialise in it, not their victims.
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I did know that Allen had been denied access to his children, was also undergoing some sort of therapy at one time because of his behaviour with them.
When I first read the accusation that Mia Farrow 'forced' her daughter to lie because she was consumed with jealousy, it just didn't add up. Why would someone who had previously been married twice and was an experienced mother as well as being a successful person in her own right, stoop to such things. Also her daughter, Dylan, would not be still keeping up the 'lie' to this day. Dylan is an articulate young woman.
Woody Allen went off with his stepdaughter SoonYi Preven, when she was about 17 and he was in his late fifties I think.
Of course we don't know for sure, nobody does except those who were present, but there is certainly grave cause for concern regarding him.
I honestly don't know why he seems to be spared the bulk of criticism, unlike Spacey and Weinstein. I really do not understand it.
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Oh come on, Robbie, Allen has been praised for 'waiting' until Soo Yi was of age before beginning a relationship with her (she was 19 when the relationship was discovered).
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Colin Firth is refusing to work with Allen again because of the allegations.
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Woody Allen went off with his stepdaughter SoonYi Preven, when she was about 17 and he was in his late fifties I think.
Except that - as stated by Weide and confirmed by Wikipedia - Soon Yi Previn has never been his step-daughter. Allen and Farrow were never married. I have put this in italics because it is evidence of the misconceptions and misinformation surrounding this saga. Woody Allen married his girl friend's daughter (who identifies Andre Previn as her father) and is still married to her. According to Wikipedia, a month-long investigation by the Child Sexual Abuse Clinic of Yale-New Haven Hospital concluded there had been no sexual abuse.
I hold no brief for Woody Allen. I cannot recall seeing any of his films and do not have any opinions about any of them. However, it does seem to me that we do not have an accurate picture of this whole business. On the surface it does look as though there is something unpleasant at its heart, but, as Jeremyp points out, "the police couldn't put a case together". I don't know. I am just not jumping to judgement.
I cannot see that in the current Hollywood climate (as evidenced by Weinstein, Stacey et al - and Stacey is as much a Hollywood hero as is Allen) Allen would not be treated as bad news.
I am not prepared to jump to judgement. I just don't know.
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Except that - as stated by Weide and confirmed by Wikipedia - Soon Yi Previn has never been his step-daughter. Allen and Farrow were never married. I have put this in italics because it is evidence of the misconceptions and misinformation surrounding this saga. Woody Allen married his girl friend's daughter (who identifies Andre Previn as her father) and is still married to her. According to Wikipedia, a month-long investigation by the Child Sexual Abuse Clinic of Yale-New Haven Hospital concluded there had been no sexual abuse.
I hold no brief for Woody Allen. I cannot recall seeing any of his films and do not have any opinions about any of them. However, it does seem to me that we do not have an accurate picture of this whole business. On the surface it does look as though there is something unpleasant at its heart, but, as Jeremyp points out, "the police couldn't put a case together". I don't know. I am just not jumping to judgement.
I cannot see that in the current Hollywood climate (as evidenced by Weinstein, Stacey et al - and Stacey is as much a Hollywood hero as is Allen) Allen would not be treated as bad news.
I am not prepared to jump to judgement. I just don't know.
According to the Connecticut State prosecutor there was a case that could go to court and the only reason that eh didn't take it that far was because both he and Mia Farrow felt that it was too traumatic for Dylan Farrow to endure it. The case papers I've read emphasise Dylan's traumatic feelings around her adopted father having an affair with and then marrying her older sister.
The judge in the family court found that Dylan and her siblings needed to be protected from Allen. Note, Allen filed for custody after the allegations around Dylan were made, not before.
I find this persuasive.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/my-father-woody-allen-danger-892572
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It does become very confusing, and there are so many myths around these people, e.g. the stepdaughter myth, that I end up not knowing.
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It does become very confusing, and there are so many myths around these people, e.g. the stepdaughter myth, that I end up not knowing.
She was his partner's daughter. The sibling of his own children.
Does a marriage certificate make that much of a difference?
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Family court judgement of Allen here.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/danny-shea/heres-the-1993-woody-alle_b_4746866.html
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She was his partner's daughter. The sibling of his own children.
Does a marriage certificate make that much of a difference?
Well, it bothers me that people (such as Robbie) perpetuate these myths. Andre Previn was her stepfather, surely. Well, you could say that these are minor details, but it's the details that convince, or not.
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Well, it bothers me that people (such as Robbie) perpetuate these myths. Andre Previn was her stepfather, surely. Well, you could say that these are minor details, but it's the details that convince, or not.
If you mean Soon-Yi, Previn was her adopted father.
FWIW I don’t see Allen’s relationship with her as ‘proof’ of anything other than his monumental self-absorption.
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Oh come on, Robbie, Allen has been praised for 'waiting' until Soo Yi was of age before beginning a relationship with her (she was 19 when the relationship was discovered).
Oh right, not heard that; well good for him for waiting - I suppose. It strikes me as odd as he was living with her and her mother in a family setting, a father figure if not, strictly speaking, her father. It's confusing, pushing the boundaries, but that's just my opinion.
Well, it bothers me that people (such as Robbie) perpetuate these myths. Andre Previn was her stepfather, surely. Well, you could say that these are minor details, but it's the details that convince, or not.
That's so horrible, I'm no scandalmonger, never perpetuated any myths, nor even discussed Woody Allen except on here! Doubt I ever will, it's not the sort of thing that comes up in conversation.
The only thing I remember was Allen leaving Mia Farrow with her daughter, Soon yi, whom he eventually married. I don't take pleasure in things like that, would love to believe that everything is innocent and a complete misunderstanding. Because of this thread I've delved a bit & find it all deeply disturbing. I don't want to know any more until or if it is all resolved, there's nothing I can do.
Andre Previn was Soon yi's father, he adopted her. Legally adopted children are not stepchildren.
Woody Allen was unofficially a stepfather being as he and Mia Farrow were not married (I didn't even know that until this came up, assumed they were married), & if they lived together with her with their own children as a family, it's a bizarre situation even without a marriage certificate. Or so it seems to me. I've known people who have lived together as a family with children from both, the idea of one of them going off with a child of the other wouldn't occur to them because they are family.
Enough from me I think.
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Robbie, my ‘oh come on’ was me being sarcastic, not against you, but against those who feel there is something ‘admirable’ about Allen’s restraint.
For me the whole marriage/stepfather thing’s a red herring anyway. He married his daughter’s sister. So what if they are both adopted?
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Yep, that's how I feel Rhiannon. It gives me the creeps, makes me feel grubby and I almost wish I didn't know. Especially as I cannot change anything.
Yesterday we discussed opting out of what's going on in the world for a while, "Living Ignorantly". I want to do that more than ever now and be mentally peaceful.
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You’ve had a tough time lately, sweetheart. Why not take a break from the sadness of others?
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Hmmmmmm! That evil toe rag, Saville, was never charged either, unfortunately! :o
What is your basis for calling him an evil toe rag?
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Why is it easier to believe that Mia Farrow, consumed by jealousy, groomed and coerced her daughter to lie to the point where it is still happening now, rather than the idea that Dylan Farrow is simply telling the truth? What happened to believing victims?
I don't say it's easier. I merely point out that we don't need to accept Mia Farrow's version of the events out of hand.
Dylan Farrow was a seven year old child when the events allegedly happened. It wouldn't at all surprise me gif it were possible to manipulate her such that she believed false events are really true.
Not that Mia Farrow allegedly tried to coerce two adult witnesses into giving false testimony. If you believe those witnesses that surely has to cast her own testimony into doubt along with that of her children.
To sneer at this as a ‘good story’ is disgusting beyond belief. I cannot even begin to say how repulsive I find that or how angry it makes me.
Yes, let's forget the emotion and examine the evidence.
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Oh come on, Robbie, Allen has been praised for 'waiting' until Soo Yi was of age before beginning a relationship with her (she was 19 when the relationship was discovered).
Read the article I posted. She was not under age any any time when the relationship was occurring.
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According to the Connecticut State prosecutor there was a case that could go to court and the only reason that eh didn't take it that far was because both he and Mia Farrow felt that it was too traumatic for Dylan Farrow to endure it.
Bullshit.
He might have said that, but it was grossly unprofessional. If there was a case that did not rest upon the testimony of a seven year old under the influence of a mother going through an acrimonious divorce, it would have gone to court.
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Bullshit.
He might have said that, but it was grossly unprofessional. If there was a case that did not rest upon the testimony of a seven year old under the influence of a mother going through an acrimonious divorce, it would have gone to court.
Right back at you. Your evidence for his lying is what? Your evidence that the child was being influenced is what, exactly? The family court found no evidence of coercion.
It may or may not have been unprofessional of him. Sometimes decisions have to be made to protect people. What would it have served if her wellbeing broke totally as a result of the trial?
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Right back at you. Your evidence for his lying is what? Your evidence that the child was being influenced is what, exactly? The family court found no evidence of coercion.
I don't have any evidence for his lying. I am merely applying the principle of "innocent until proved guilty"
It may or may not have been unprofessional of him.
There's no may or may not about it. He was unprofessional. His words convicted Allen in the eyes of most people but there was no trial.
Sometimes decisions have to be made to protect people. What would it have served if her wellbeing broke totally as a result of the trial?
If Allen is guilty, how has it protected Dylan? How is her well being served by the man she thinks abused her getting off?
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I don't have any evidence for his lying. I am merely applying the principle of "innocent until proved guilty"
There's no may or may not about it. He was unprofessional. His words convicted Allen in the eyes of most people but there was no trial.
If Allen is guilty, how has it protected Dylan? How is her well being served by the man she thinks abused her getting off?
The family court protected her by not allowing contact.
She has since said that she wished it had gone to trial. Sometimes adults make decisions to protect children that aren’t correct in hindsight.
When I was a child an attempt was made to abduct me and my next door neighbour from my back garden; both sets of parents decided not to report it and I think my own distress about it contributed to their decision. Can remember it like yesterday, a man in a black cab offered us sweets, thought it was my uncle at first. Seems utterly crazy now that no one said anything.
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When we were living in Cambridgeshire in the early 80s, our younger two daughters, aged 11 and 9, were walking home from primary school when a man in a car stopped an asked them if they would like to see his puppies. Being sensible kids they ignored him and ran home as fast as their legs would carry them. I immediately phoned the police and a detective came to interview the girls. They took this attempted abduction very seriously as a girl had actually been abducted in a nearby town, and was still missing. I can't remember if she was ever found :o
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Read the article I posted. She was not under age any any time when the relationship was occurring.
Indeed. How noble of him to wait before shagging his daughter’s sister. What a guy.
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I don't say it's easier. I merely point out that we don't need to accept Mia Farrow's version of the events out of hand.
Dylan Farrow was a seven year old child when the events allegedly happened. It wouldn't at all surprise me gif it were possible to manipulate her such that she believed false events are really true.
Not that Mia Farrow allegedly tried to coerce two adult witnesses into giving false testimony. If you believe those witnesses that surely has to cast her own testimony into doubt along with that of her children.
Yes, let's forget the emotion and examine the evidence.
To snidely refer to this as a ‘good story’ is emoting. Let’s see if you can have a think as to why I might find that disgusting. No rush.
Again, we aren’t relying on Mia Farrow’s story, but Dylan’s. Both the Yale report that concluded that there wasn’t abuse (the one subsequently discredited by the family court) and the family court itself (the only court to test the claims) say that there is no evidence of coercion. The family courts usually give fathers the benefit of the doubt and some kind of access arrangement, even more do in thecUS. The family court concluded that Dylan needed protection from Allen.
Everything I’m seeing are the actions of a woman who is desperate to protect her child. Sadly the authorities aren’t good st this. It’s the most horrendous thing and too many parents (not just mothers) find that the courts fail their children and themselves. That Allen was denied access to his kids is pretty remarkable and shows how credible the case was.
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I’ll just link to this again seeing as people still seem to think that no court has found anything wrong with Allen and that on balance of probability Farrow is a manipulative liar.
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4746866
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I’ll just link to this again seeing as people still seem to think that no court has found anything wrong with Allen and that on balance of probability Farrow is a manipulative liar.
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4746866
Well I certainly don't think that, quite the contrary. It's horrific that some do.
Everything has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt though.
Allen is a very old man now, doubt anything will be sorted before he dies. Unfortunately.
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Well I certainly don't think that, quite the contrary. It's horrific that some do.
Everything has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt though.
Allen is a very old man now, doubt anything will be sorted before he dies. Unfortunately.
Everything has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt for him to be imprisoned. That's almost certainly in nobody's interest now. But women are speaking out against abuse and being believed and men like Weinstein are losing their grip over their victims. The family court found that Dylan Farrow was in danger from her father and she's had to endure smears again not only her mother but her brother (who was responsible in part for the exposure of Weinstein) and herself while watching famous men and women defend him. Hopefully that is starting to come to and end for her now.
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Everything has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt for him to be imprisoned. That's almost certainly in nobody's interest now. But women are speaking out against abuse and being believed and men like Weinstein are losing their grip over their victims. The family court found that Dylan Farrow was in danger from her father and she's had to endure smears again not only her mother but her brother (who was responsible in part for the exposure of Weinstein) and herself while watching famous men and women defend him. Hopefully that is starting to come to and end for her now.
If Allen is guilty he should be sent down.
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The family court protected her by not allowing contact.
But he's still out there, free.
She has since said that she wished it had gone to trial. Sometimes adults make decisions to protect children that aren’t correct in hindsight.
It wasn't correct in hindsight for anybody. It's like a sword of Damocles for all the people involved. It would have been better to cut the thread back then than have it blight everybody's lives.
When I was a child an attempt was made to abduct me and my next door neighbour from my back garden; both sets of parents decided not to report it and I think my own distress about it contributed to their decision. Can remember it like yesterday, a man in a black cab offered us sweets, thought it was my uncle at first. Seems utterly crazy now that no one said anything.
It is utterly crazy.
The attempted abductor might have been caught if your parents had reported the incident. If they had gone on to abduct somebody else, it would have been on your parents' and your neighbour's parents' conscience.
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Indeed. How noble of him to wait before shagging his daughter’s sister. What a guy.
She wasn't his daughter's sister. She was the adopted daughter of André Previn and Mia Farrow. Mia Farrow was never even married to Woody Allen, so apart from the ick factor of the age difference there was really nothing wrong.
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She wasn't his daughter's sister. She was the adopted daughter of André Previn and Mia Farrow. Mia Farrow was never even married to Woody Allen, so apart from the ick factor of the age difference there was really nothing wrong.
Blimey.
Both girls have the same mother - or are you going to say that adoption doesn’t count?
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But he's still out there, free.It wasn't correct in hindsight for anybody. It's like a sword of Damocles for all the people involved. It would have been better to cut the thread back then than have it blight everybody's lives. It is utterly crazy.
The attempted abductor might have been caught if your parents had reported the incident. If they had gone on to abduct somebody else, it would have been on your parents' and your neighbour's parents' conscience.
Yes, Allen is still out there. Dylan was protected but has never had the chance for justice. But if she was too fragile to stand it and Allen walked free, and he’s guilty, that’s worse. I’m not sure that there is a ‘right’ thing that could have been done.
FWIW having thought about it I don’t see how the prosecutor could have said anything other than the truth as to why he didn’t press charges.
Agree about the actions of my parents and my neighbour’s. It was never spoken of again - no clue what their thinking was but they obviously agreed with each other.
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I'll out myself as someone who is a fan of a lot of what Allen has produced. I liked the early films up till somewhere around Manhattan Murder Mystery, a couple of them flit in and out of my favourite films. I bought records of his stand up, and own his books Getting Even, Without Feathers, and Side Effects. Not quite a full on fan boy, and I once watched Cassandra's Dream for free and felt ripped off. Last year I went to see Manhattan at the cinema for its anniversary and was amazed how well it stood up as a film and how badly it stood up in its 'morals'. I was astounded that the portrayal of a character manipulating a 17 year old character, who was played by a 17 year old actress hadn't been called out more at the time as deeply scary. And there are many examples in other films and his writing of such as well which was not called out.
I think Allen gets a different approach from many people to Weinstein because in part there is an ickiness of the accusations of Dylan Farrow that we struggle with more than most of those against Weinstein. Add to that a strange doubt that such an intellectual weedy chap could be doing anything that bad as opposed to a big cigar chomping deals man.
I won't be getting rid of the books, or the records, but I doubt I will watch many of his films again. Not out of any boycott but because when I came out of Manhattan it made me feel stained for watching it, because of what was in the film in plain sight.
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From what I can gather his new film is about...oh wait, you've seen it already.