Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on March 13, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
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Or indeed something else? Rarely have I felt so disconected from any narrative. Almost nothing makes sense.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880
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Or indeed something else? Rarely have I felt so disconected from any narrative. Almost nothing makes sense.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880
Well, this morning on Radio 4 we had the Russian politician Vitaly Milonov accusing the British government of orchestrating the whole affair in order to generate anti-Russian feeling in the British people. I would have thought that was the last thing the government wanted in these unstable times. In any case, I think the British people in general have little ill-will towards the Russians per se - only towards the demagogues who have long tended to control them in one form or another.
There is the question of motive, wherever the lethal Novichok attack originated from. The whole thing would seem utterly childish if it weren't so tragic. I had been thinking that this was some game of KGB agents whose mentality hasn't changed since the days of the cold war. I then heard Milonov this morning accusing the British of living in a James Bond fantasy world - the same idea I had about the Russians' grisly agents. However, since Milonov seems to be a homophobic cretin who has accused gays of corrupting straight people into paedophilia, and carrying out violent attacks on straight people (rather than the other way round)* - I'm not overly inclined to believe that his take on 'reality' is to be trusted all that much.
*These are probably some of the more innocuous of his disgusting pronouncements.
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Well, this morning on Radio 4 we had the Russian politician Vitaly Milonov accusing the British government of orchestrating the whole affair in order to generate anti-Russian feeling in the British people. I would have thought that was the last thing the government wanted in these unstable times. In any case, I think the British people in general have little ill-will towards the Russians per se - only towards the demagogues who have long tended to control them in one form or another.
There is the question of motive, wherever the lethal Novichok attack originated from. The whole thing would seem utterly childish if it weren't so tragic. I had been thinking that this was some game of KGB agents whose mentality hasn't changed since the days of the cold war. I then heard Milonov this morning accusing the British of living in a James Bond fantasy world - the same idea I had about the Russians' grisly agents. However, since Milonov seems to be a homophobic cretin who has accused gays of corrupting straight people into paedophilia, and carrying out violent attacks on straight people (rather than the other way round)* - I'm not overly inclined to believe that his take on 'reality' is to be trusted all that much.
*These are probably some of the more innocuous of his disgusting pronouncements.
Yep, he's an idiot but that doesn't really help, it's just muddying the waters. At least he isn't their foreign secretary
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I'm baffled why the Russians would use such an easily traced method. Or maybe they don't care, or it's a warning, death to traitors. But as NS said, this stuff wasn't made in Russia originally.
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There is a genuine issue about suspicious deaths of Russians in the UK, see the latest below, but why have they not been an issue up to now?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/13/russian-businessman-close-associate-ofboris-berezovsky-found/
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I'm baffled why the Russians would use such an easily traced method. Or maybe they don't care, or it's a warning, death to traitors. But as NS said, this stuff wasn't made in Russia originally.
I agree. I find it baffling too. All I can come up with is that the Russian mafia were encouraged to put the mockers on Sergei Skripal in some way, and they made a complete balls up of it.
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Fake news, I reckon.
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I'm baffled why the Russians would use such an easily traced method. Or maybe they don't care, or it's a warning, death to traitors. But as NS said, this stuff wasn't made in Russia originally.
There's a coupke if things. The geezer is a forner Russian agent, so before he was allowed to reside in England the Russians would have made sure there was nothing he could give to MI6 that they didn't already know. Now I'm not putting it past the Russian secret services (just as I wouldn't the British or American) but to use an agent fairly easily treacable would be bloody stupid. Sounds like a right fit up, if you ask me.
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There's a coupke if things. The geezer is a forner Russian agent, so before he was allowed to reside in England the Russians would have made sure there was nothing he could give to MI6 that they didn't already know. Now I'm not putting it past the Russian secret services (just as I wouldn't the British or American) but to use an agent fairly easily treacable would be bloody stupid. Sounds like a right fit up, if you ask me.
But then as a fit up it's a bit shite so same issues apply to your choice.
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Pity Chris Bryant had appeared on RT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43393314
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My impression is that as Putin feels threatened by NATO, his strategy is to keep pushing boundaries to test the political will of NATO members and as a warning to countries on Russia’s borders that are aligning themselves more and more closely with NATO’s strategic interests to the detriment of Russia’s interests.
The warning is that NATO or NATO members (apart from the US) don’t have the capability or will to protect its citizens from Russia’s reach.
It also makes Russia look strong, which can’t hurt, given the Presidential elections this month.
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My impression is that as Putin feels threatened by NATO, his strategy is to keep pushing boundaries to test the political will of NATO members and as a warning to countries on Russia’s borders that are aligning themselves more and more closely with NATO’s strategic interests to the detriment of Russia’s interests.
The warning is that NATO or NATO members (apart from the US) don’t have the capability or will to protect its citizens from Russia’s reach.
It also makes Russia look strong, which can’t hurt, given the Presidential elections this month.
This plus warning any would-be ‘traitors’ of the consequences of cooperating with the west. There’s probably a few people who might have had stuff to say about the links with Trump and the election who Putin would want to keep quiet.
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Yes. Is this any different to US drone strikes on foreign soil? Innocent bystanders were killed then too as part of the usual collateral damage that occurs in political manouverings to protect national interests.
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Yes. Is this any different to US drone strikes on foreign soil? Innocent bystanders were killed then too as part of the usual collateral damage that occurs in political manouverings to protect national interests.
Of-course it is completely different. Are you claiming an equivalence?
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Of-course it is completely different. Are you claiming an equivalence?
My view and why is pretty clear from my post.
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https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/
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My impression is that as Putin feels threatened by NATO, his strategy is to keep pushing boundaries to test the political will of NATO members and as a warning to countries on Russia’s borders that are aligning themselves more and more closely with NATO’s strategic interests to the detriment of Russia’s interests.
The warning is that NATO or NATO members (apart from the US) don’t have the capability or will to protect its citizens from Russia’s reach.
It also makes Russia look strong, which can’t hurt, given the Presidential elections this month.
The U.S doesn't have the means to stop this either unless you are suggesting a nuclear strike would follow, which wouldn't prevent it.
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https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/
Thanks for posting this, ad, I had been reading it earlier and meant to post it but hadn't got round to it. I don't agree with all Craig says, as ever, but if Russia is half the bogeyman we get told, electing Trump, causing Brexit, then they have become the illuminati of our age.
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I am of the opinion Trump and Putin are very dangerous indeed. :o
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The U.S doesn't have the means to stop this either unless you are suggesting a nuclear strike would follow, which wouldn't prevent it.
Russia hasn’t had sufficient funds to update its military equipment so the US has enough conventional weapons and equipment and manpower in its armed forces to stop Russian expansion in Europe, provided the US was prepared to send their resources to Europe, but if Russia was losing a war against NATO forces they might use nuclear and biological weapons in retaliation. At which point there would be no winners but some countries would lose more badly than others.
It is in Russia’s interests to figure out how much meddling in surrounding countries it can get away with to protect its national interests, while playing the “if you confront us and we’re losing we”ll use the nuclear or biological weapons” card. So I think it makes sense to carry out problematic actions but not open acts of war and gauge the response. It gets people used to Russia flexing its muscles, expanding its sphere of influence, and intimidates neighbouring countries that are contemplating opening up to NATO influence.
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Russia hasn’t had sufficient funds to update its military equipment so the US has enough conventional weapons and equipment and manpower in its armed forces to stop Russian expansion in Europe, provided the US was prepared to send their resources to Europe, but if Russia was losing a war against NATO forces they might use nuclear and biological weapons in retaliation. At which point there would be no winners but some countries would lose more badly than others.
It is in Russia’s interests to figure out how much meddling in surrounding countries it can get away with to protect its national interests, while playing the “if you confront us and we’re losing we”ll use the nuclear or biological weapons” card. So I think it makes sense to carry out problematic actions but not open acts of war and gauge the response. It gets people used to Russia flexing its muscles, expanding its sphere of influence, and intimidates neighbouring countries that are contemplating opening up to NATO influence.
Which is irrelevant to a quick dose of nerve gas or shooting -
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Which is irrelevant to a quick dose of nerve gas or shooting -
No idea what you are trying to say here. What shooting? And what is irrelevant to nerve gas?
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https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/russian-to-judgement/
i woukdn’t trust the British government after the Iraq dossier fiasco, where they took uncorroborated evidence from a single British Intelligence source against the advice of intelligence experts to build a case for invading Iraq.
But I don’t trust the Russian government or their intelligence services either.
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No idea what you are trying to say here. What shooting? And what is irrelevant to nerve gas?
That use of nerve gas or shooting by a Russian agent isn't prevented by anything the US has that the UK or others don't.
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i woukdn’t trust the British government after the Iraq dossier fiasco, where they took uncorroborated evidence from a single British Intelligence source against the advice of intelligence experts to build a case for invading Iraq.
But I don’t trust the Russian government or their intelligence services either.
And trusting the Russian govt isn't suggested by Craig's blog. so not sure what point you are making?
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That use of nerve gas or shooting by a Russian agent isn't prevented by anything the US has that the UK or others don't.
OIC. No I wasn’t referring to that when I mentioned Russia’s reach and the US capabilities. I was talking about Russian annexation of resource-rich or strategic areas in former Soviet republics.
When I commented, the British government had laid down an ultimatum to the Russian government over this nerve agent incident, which the Russian government ignored. Regardless of who was responsible, each government has to engage in some posturing until they have more information.
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OIC. No I wasn’t referring to that when I mentioned Russia’s reach and the US capabilities. I was talking about Russian annexation of resource-rich or strategic areas in former Soviet republics.
When I commented, the British government had laid down an ultimatum to the Russian government over this nerve agent incident, which the Russian government ignored. Regardless of who was responsible, each government has to engage in some posturing until they have more information.
If the Russians planned it they don't need further information. If the British govt don't have sufficient info then they don't have to posture, it's a choice
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And trusting the Russian govt isn't suggested by Craig's blog. so not sure what point you are making?
I am making the point that I don’t trust the Russian government. Which is why I said I don’t trust the Russian government.
What made you think that my post was saying that Craig suggests trusting the Russian government? Craig’s blog says:
“I write as someone who believes that agents of the Russian state did assassinate Litvinenko, and that the Russian security services carried out at least some of the apartment bombings that provided the pretext for the brutal assault on Chechnya.”
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I am making the point that I don’t trust the Russian government. Which is why I said I don’t trust the Russian government.
What made you think that my post was saying that Craig suggests trusting the Russian government? Craig’s blog says:
“I write as someone who believes that agents of the Russian state did assassinate Litvinenko, and that the Russian security services carried out at least some of the apartment bombings that provided the pretext for the brutal assault on Chechnya.”
It's your use of But - since as we both agree Craig's blog doesn't say you should what's the point of the But?
By the way, when did you meet Craig?
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If the Russians planned it they don't need further information. If the British govt don't have sufficient info then they don't have to posture, it's a choice
Not necessarily - it depends on how much Putin has control over the actions of the SVR or people they use.
It’s a political choice - if the British govt didn’t posture I think the media and large parts of the electorate who have criticised May’s backing down in Brexit negotiations will have lots more ammunition against her suitability as a leader.
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Not necessarily - it depends on how much Putin has control over the actions of the SVR or people they use.
It’s a political choice - if the British govt didn’t posture I think the media and large parts of the electorate who have criticised May’s backing down in Brexit negotiations will have lots more ammunition against her suitability as a leader.
So it isn't something they have to do - it's a choice as I said
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It's your use of But - since as we both agree Craig's blog doesn't say you should what's the point of the But?
By the way, when did you meet Craig?
I enjoyed writing “but”. It seemed to flow well from my previous point about not trusting the British government. Craig’s blog was an interesting read.
When do you think I met Craig?
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I enjoyed writing “but”. It seemed to flow well from my previous point about not trusting the British government. Craig’s blog was an interesting read.
When do you think I met Craig?
So it's essentially a pointless but as so many are.
As to meeting Craig, just you referring to him as Craig.
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So it isn't something they have to do - it's a choice as I said
It was a wry figure of speech about the posturing - I sometimes use figures of speech when I write posts. Didn’t know it would confuse you whereby you took it literally.
I think it’s obvious that actions carried out by governments are choices.
Most actions are a choice when you are an adult except dying I suppose, unless you commit suicide. Even if someone is pointing a gun at your head you don’t have to do what they say - you can choose to get shot.
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So it's essentially a pointless but as so many are.
Yes - similar to the many pointless posts people make on here questioning pointless “buts”.
As to meeting Craig, just you referring to him as Craig.
I’m on a phone - I can’t be bothered to type more than Craig. Why - is there a rule about meeting people before using only their first name...or were you making another pointless observation?
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Yes - similar to the many pointless posts people make on here questioning pointless “buts”.
I’m on a phone - I can’t be bothered to type more than Craig. Why - is there a rule about meeting people before using only their first name...or were you making another pointless observation?
A rule? No, a custom yes, and given your but appeared tpmake it look as if you were making an argument you weren't, I don't see it as pointless that it was picked up. I am just glad to have been of help to clear up your what you meant.
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It was a wry figure of speech about the posturing - I sometimes use figures of speech when I write posts. Didn’t know it would confuse you whereby you took it literally.
I think it’s obvious that actions carried out by governments are choices.
Most actions are a choice when you are an adult except dying I suppose, unless you commit suicide. Even if someone is pointing a gun at your head you don’t have to do what they say - you can choose to get shot.
And the implication from the figure of speech is that the govt has very little choice here, I disagree. I think it's following it's own narrative and just saying that they are constrained politically needs to be justified. I don't think you have managed to do that.
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i woukdn’t trust the British government after the Iraq dossier fiasco, where they took uncorroborated evidence from a single British Intelligence source against the advice of intelligence experts to build a case for invading Iraq.
But I don’t trust the Russian government or their intelligence services either.
Our government started off in the right manner, being slow to blame Russia. But now they have acted without respect for the Russian government's insistence that it was not involved in the attack. According to the rules of the international convention on chemical weapons, they should have provided Russia with a sample of the nerve agent and allowed 10 days for a response. I agree with what Jeremy Corbyn said today. They should be working with the Russians (who have after all just finished beating up ISIL), not provoking them.
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A rule? No, a custom yes, and given your but appeared tpmake it look as if you were making an argument you weren't, I don't see it as pointless that it was picked up. I am just glad to have been of help to clear up your what you meant.
Sorry but you might have noticed that you can’t impose your personal customs on this forum. People just tend to ignore them. You could learn to be more tolerant of people who don’t follow your customs but that’s up to you.
Sure, feel free to pick up on all buts and examine their use and context, if that’s an additional service you provide this forum. My experience on here is that when I say I don’t trust my government in these situations, some posters take that to mean I am supporting the foreign government’s position. The “but” was to make clear that it would be incorrect to infer that I trusted the Russian government based on my mistrust of the British government.
BUT if it seems an unnecessary word and bothers you, just keep flagging that in your usual roundabout, quirky manner rather than immediately and straightforwardly highlighting and querying the “but” in your first response. I’ll just respond to any points that I think actually make sense and help further a discussion.
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Sorry but you might have noticed that you can’t impose your personal customs on this forum. People just tend to ignore them. You could learn to be more tolerant of people who don’t follow your customs but that’s up to you.
Sure, feel free to pick up on all buts and examine their use and context, if that’s an additional service you provide this forum. My experience on here is that when I say I don’t trust my government in these situations, some posters take that to mean I am supporting the foreign government’s position. The “but” was to make clear that it would be incorrect to infer that I trusted the Russian government based on my mistrust of the British government.
BUT if it seems an unnecessary word and bothers you, just keep flagging that in your usual roundabout, quirky manner rather than immediately and straightforwardly highlighting and querying the “but” in your first response. I’ll just respond to any points that I think actually make sense and help further a discussion.
How much did you pay for the straw in this post?
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And the implication from the figure of speech is that the govt has very little choice here, I disagree. I think it's following it's own narrative and just saying that they are constrained politically needs to be justified. I don't think you have managed to do that.
No that’s not the implication. It was a sarcastic observation about playing to their respective voters, hence the use of the word “posturing”. Since when does a govt have very little choice? Can you give me an example of an actual situation where you thought a govt had “very little choice” And what does “constrained politically” mean?
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No that’s not the implication. It was a sarcastic observation about playing to their respective voters, hence the use of the word “posturing”. Since when does a govt have very little choice? Can you give me an example of an actual situation where you thought a govt had “very little choice” And what does “constrained politically” mean?
you seem to be arguing against your own post now.
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How much did you pay for the straw in this post?
Once you’ve posted a few more of these I can put together a little game of Nearly Sane bingo.
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you seem to be arguing against your own post now.
Thanks - another one for the Nearly Sane bingo collection.
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Once you’ve posted a few more of these I can put together a little game of Nearly Sane bingo.
And your mirroring here gives me House!
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Thanks - another one for the Nearly Sane bingo collection.
When you are indulging in the game playing repeating the 'joke' in two posts just looks clumsy.
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When you are indulging in the game playing repeating the 'joke' in two posts just looks clumsy.
Not sure if I want to include this one in the Nearly Sane bingo - not snappy enough. Please reword if you want it to make the final cut.
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Not sure if I want to include this one in the Nearly Sane bingo - not snappy enough. Please reword if you want it to make the final cut.
Actually rather than the badinage, I would be more interested in talking about the questions around the use of nerve agents by whomever.
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Our government started off in the right manner, being slow to blame Russia. But now they have acted without respect for the Russian government's insistence that it was not involved in the attack. According to the rules of the international convention on chemical weapons, they should have provided Russia with a sample of the nerve agent and allowed 10 days for a response. I agree with what Jeremy Corbyn said today. They should be working with the Russians (who have after all just finished beating up ISIL), not provoking them.
Corbyn seems to be getting a lot of criticism from his own MPs - based on a script that MPs are claiming political leaders are supposed to follow when their country is “threatened”. Corbyn’s response seems reasonable - he wants evidence. May is probably hoping this situation will improve her public image, so I think she is more concerned about headlines and creating a perception in her Cabinet that she is up to the job of taking on Russia than she is about the rules of the international convention on chemical weapons.
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Lot of criticism on web for the SNP reaction which seems to follow the Russia bad narrative
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Corbyn seems to be getting a lot of criticism from his own MPs - based on a script that MPs are claiming political leaders are supposed to follow when their country is “threatened”. Corbyn’s response seems reasonable - he wants evidence. May is probably hoping this situation will improve her public image, so I think she is more concerned about headlines and creating a perception in her Cabinet that she is up to the job of taking on Russia than she is about the rules of the international convention on chemical weapons.
Yes there was a beauty parade of would be Labour leaders aka Blair manque with no prescription other than to try and make some effective apology for Brown, Miliband and Corbyn and then pass as Tory lite.
Having said that I'm afraid Corbyn has put himself back to where he was just after the referendum.
His subsequent recovery is miraculous but there is rarely a second shot at a miracle. His card here is as always the extent of Tory incompetence in all areas.
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Yes there was a beauty parade of would be Labour leaders aka Blair manque with no prescription other than to try and make some effective apology for Brown, Miliband and Corbyn and then pass as Tory lite.
Having said that I'm afraid Corbyn has put himself back to where he was just after the referendum.
His subsequent recovery is miraculous but there is rarely a second shot at a miracle. His card here is as always the extent of Tory incompetence in all areas.
I have to say I am not a Corbyn supporter - I am too self-interested to risk the economy - but technically he is right to call for evidence and to distrust the political use of information from the intelligence services based on the dossier used to justify the invasion of Iraq.
I think it works quite well for there to be some intelligent voice of reason amongst the British political posturing while the posturing continues. Whether Putin authorised this or not, Putin will probably be dismissive of any government that plays by the rules, and will factor into his future strategy those governments that act decisively without hanging back waiting for evidence that probably won't tie Putin to this beyond reasonable doubt, and may compromise intelligence sources.
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This is an interesting and informative piece from The Irish Times:
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/unlikely-that-vladimir-putin-behind-skripal-poisoning-1.3425736
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Meanwhile the defence secretary says Russia smells of poo and wee - at that level anyway
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43405686
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Alex Massie on Alec Salmond's defence of RT - I agree with a lot of it but don't see that Skripal has changed the issue. I don't think the case against Russia has been made but making this show was always being a useful idiot.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/alex-salmonds-defence-of-russia-today-is-inexcusable/
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If Salmond said it, it must be right! ::)
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Call me cynical if you will but it seems to me there is no information in the public domain about the details of this and the basis on which it can be presumed Russia/Putin are guilty, and some of the headlines about Corbyn for daring to suggest that some hard facts would be good thing do smack of the same kind of childish jingoism that persuaded the hard of thinking to vote for Brexit.
Then we have the hapless Maybot now being portrayed as being strong in her handling of this, such as trotting off today to look at a bench in Salisbury, but perhaps it is just me who wonders if this isn't a fortuitous distraction from the Brexit shambles. Of course it is a serious issue, but I'm with Jeremy on this one: we need more information and less reacting (to what exactly?).
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If Salmond said it, it must be right! ::)
That really advances things a long way. Elsewhere you posted that you trusted Mrs May on this issue.
If Mrs May said it, it must be right! ::)
As a contribution to the discussion it doesn't add a lot does it?
It just displays your particular prejudice towards Salmond - and mine towards May.
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If Salmond said it, it must be right! ::)
Sorry, you've lost me. I don't see what your point is.
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Sorry, you've lost me. I don't see what your point is.
Don't worry about it.
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Don't worry about it.
I don't but perhaps you should.
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I think, if Theresa May is so convinced of the involvement of the Russian government, she should lay the evidence out. I'm really sick of British governments keeping secrets from the people that employ them to run the country. Corbyn is right. Let's see the evidence.
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Alex Massie on Alec Salmond's defence of RT - I agree with a lot of it but don't see that Skripal has changed the issue. I don't think the case against Russia has been made but making this show was always being a useful idiot.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/alex-salmonds-defence-of-russia-today-is-inexcusable/
Big 'Eck on RT's just being a numpty....but, unlike Rees Mogg, he hasn't got cash to worry about......
https://politicalscrapbook.net/2018/03/jacob-rees-mogg-firm-manages-nearly-100m-invested-in-russia/
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If Salmond said it, it must be right! ::)
Why?
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Well, RT is still up so Alex isn't talking complete nonsense.
Here's Ken Livingstone and I agree with a lot that he's saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBB6biZ4aa4
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Leaving aside whether it was a 'good' Russian that paid £160,000 to play tennis with Boris Johnson, in find the selling of access in this way redolent of corruption
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43448559
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I think, if Theresa May is so convinced of the involvement of the Russian government, she should lay the evidence out. I'm really sick of British governments keeping secrets from the people that employ them to run the country. Corbyn is right. Let's see the evidence.
I previously poo-pooed the idea of British involvement, put forward by Vitaly Milonov, only to find it repeated by another Russian pundit on the Andrew Marr show. Well, Porton Down is close to Salisbury. But we might be in double bluff territory here - that's a connection that Russia would be quick to promote.
Well, it's likely that the MOD has its own agenda*, and wouldn't wait for government sanction if it wanted to do a little 'tidying up' (perhaps they thought it might help the country by creating a 'hate Russia' diversion).
*The Home Office has also shown a revolting form of autonomy from government guidelines in the Brexit matter, by issuing "pack your bags and fuck off" ultimata to foreign nationals who've lived here for years and have children in British schools, not long after the referendum result, so perhaps this is not beyond the bounds of possibility.
Not QUANGOS but QUAGOS.
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I don't think there is any British involvement here, and I strongly suspect this is Putin but I don't have enough evidence to from go with that as a conclusion currently.
Here is the latest from Craig Murray, as ever I don't agree with everything but it's always an interesting take
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/on-being-a-dissenting-voice-in-2018/
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Or indeed something else? Rarely have I felt so disconected from any narrative. Almost nothing makes sense.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43381880
fake news, probably designed to push us back towards the eu in the guise we need europe to support Britain if Russia started trouble...
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fake news, probably designed to push us back towards the eu in the guise we need europe to support Britain if Russia started trouble...
Fake in what sense? That there was no attack? Or that there was an attack but it was carried out by who?
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fake news, probably designed to push us back towards the eu in the guise we need europe to support Britain if Russia started trouble...
Are you saying there was no attack and the story has been concocted? Of course we need Europe, Brexit is a DISASTER. :o
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Are you saying there was no attack and the story has been concocted? Of course we need Europe, Brexit is a DISASTER. :o
it seems the nerve agent is so lethal and the photo's show firemen stood around with no protective gear on...
Brexit is a disaster?? you seem to have a problem with democracy...
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it seems the nerve agent is so lethal and the photo's show firemen stood around with no protective gear on...
Brexit is a disaster?? you seem to have a problem with democracy...
Having spoken to people who voted for Brexit, many hadn't a clue what is was all about. One said she voted for it, because her next door neighbour was going to do so! That ghastly man Farage said if people voted for Brexit it would mean there would be more money for the NHS, before recanting that statement! >:(
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Brexit is a disaster?? you seem to have a problem with democracy...
I don't think that is even implied in LR's post. She has a problem with Brexit, as many people do.
Anyway you seem to be implying that democracy always produces the best results, palpably not true in any number of scenarios.
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I don't think that is even implied in LR's post. She has a problem with Brexit, as many people do.
Anyway you seem to be implying that democracy always produces the best results, palpably not true in any number of scenarios.
I'm not implying democracy produces the best results, the problem with ignoring democracy and those who would allow it to be ignored is the slippery slope it produces....
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That ghastly man Farage said if people voted for Brexit it would mean there would be more money for the NHS, before recanting that statement!
To be fair to him (and believe me I don't want to be) I don't think he ever said that. It was another Brexit person that came up with that.
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To be fair to him (and believe me I don't want to be) I don't think he ever said that. It was another Brexit person that came up with that.
Farage did complain about the money to the NHS being misleading, Personally I think Farage is one of the few politicians that try to do what is good for the country..
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I'm not implying democracy produces the best results, the problem with ignoring democracy and those who would allow it to be ignored is the slippery slope it produces....
So if democracy came up with a process where religious people were deported from this country you'd go along with that as being OK, because otherwise some imaginary slippery slope may be stumbled upon? You wouldn't on that occasion wish to change democracy, to fight against it's conclusion, to make sure that that particular conclusion of democracy was never acted upon?
Well some people feel the same about leaving the EU. They regard it as a monumental act of self harm that has been accommodated by democracy. That's all. As far as I am aware we are still rushing gaderene-like towards the BREXIT exit door, so nobody is ignoring democracy.
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Farage did complain about the money to the NHS being misleading, Personally I think Farage is one of the few politicians that try to do what is good for the country..
Excuse me whilst I choke! Farage is a HYPOCRITE, he takes money from the EU whilst supporting Brexit. He is also an unpleasant racist! >:(
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So if democracy came up with a process where religious people were deported from this country you'd go along with that as being OK, because otherwise some imaginary slippery slope may be stumbled upon? You wouldn't on that occasion wish to change democracy, to fight against it's conclusion, to make sure that that particular conclusion of democracy was never acted upon?
Well some people feel the same about leaving the EU. They regard it as a monumental act of self harm that has been accommodated by democracy. That's all. As far as I am aware we are still rushing gaderene-like towards the BREXIT exit door, so nobody is ignoring democracy.
It practically has, unless you are muslim..lol
democracy is what it is, if the vote went that way it should be actioned, if we begin to rethink democracy anything can be changed by someone capable of manipulation and that to me is a very dangerous place..
But the majority do not feel that way about the EU... and now with all the twists and attempts to block all we are ding is causing a greater divide...
If we had voted to remain would anything have held it up or questioned it, I doubt it very much...
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If we had voted to remain would anything have held it up or questioned it, I doubt it very much...
Irrelevant really, if we'd voted to remain there would not have been any need for negotiations, etc. We would just have carried on.
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Irrelevant really, if we'd voted to remain there would not have been any need for negotiations, etc. We would just have carried on.
It's irrelevant to you because you do not like the decision, part of democracy is accepting that the decision did not go your way but make the best of it...
elections have been won on a fraction of the turnout of Brexit, no one has ever argued they only just won...
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It's irrelevant to you because you do not like the decision, part of democracy is accepting that the decision did not go your way but make the best of it...
elections have been won on a fraction of the turnout of Brexit, no one has ever argued they only just won...
Did you read my post at all? :-\
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it seems the nerve agent is so lethal and the photo's show firemen stood around with no protective gear on...
Brexit is a disaster?? you seem to have a problem with democracy...
Getting back on topic here, I agree that there are questions about what the narrative here but it seems to me an unjustified leap to believe that there either was no attack, or that it was someone in the UK doing it to stay in the EU.
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Yes. Is this any different to US drone strikes on foreign soil? Innocent bystanders were killed then too as part of the usual collateral damage that occurs in political manouverings to protect national interests.
I doubt this chap and his daughter deliberatly mixed with innocent bystanders hoping to take some of them with them if anything happens, purely for a propaganda purposes in the same way as those islamist extremests do.
Regards ippy
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I'm still unsure whether Britain should assume Russia to be responsible for the attack. Boris said on Sunday that there is evidence Russia has been stockpiling novichoc over the last 10 years for use in assassinations. He said it very convincingly, but still we haven't been told what that evidence is. Are we supposed to take his word for it?
Also it is strange that the attack happened 8 miles from Porton Down; could that be the source of the nerve agent?
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I'm still unsure whether Britain should assume Russia to be responsible for the attack. Boris said on Sunday that there is evidence Russia has been stockpiling novichoc over the last 10 years for use in assassinations. He said it very convincingly, but still we haven't been told what that evidence is. Are we supposed to take his word for it?
Also it is strange that the attack happened 8 miles from Porton Down; could that be the source of the nerve agent?
No.
Boris (which autocorrect just tried to make into Virus) is a nob who spouts populist drivel. But Russia has form for this kind of thing and this has the hallmarks of an assassination, although I don’t see that we can know for sure whether it was state sanctioned. To think this is anything to do with Porton Down strikes me as tin hat territory though.
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Brexit is a disaster?? you seem to have a problem with democracy...
You seem to have a problem with understanding democracy. In a democracy, one accepts the result of a vote for the time being, but is under no obligation to like it. I think Brexit is a disaster, and a triumph for all the petty-racist little-Englanders in UKRAP, but I accept, grudgingly, that the vote went their way (just). That doesn't mean that we can't have another referendum before the deal is finalised - after all, we don't have one general election and then let the party that wins be in power for evermore. I'm sure you agree, as a believer in democracy.
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It's irrelevant to you because you do not like the decision, part of democracy is accepting that the decision did not go your way but make the best of it...
elections have been won on a fraction of the turnout of Brexit, no one has ever argued they only just won...
Grace
I may be wrong but it seems like there was and is a strand of evangelicals and old nominals who back Brexit.
I never received such a call. Perhaps you can enlighten us on how Brexit moves both the United Kingdom and the Kingdom on.
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Farage did complain about the money to the NHS being misleading, Personally I think Farage is one of the few politicians that try to do what is good for the country..
Why?
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Why?
Because GoG is obviously a pretty extreme right-wing kipper. (He also appears to have left - perhaps he decided we're all a bunch of commies and infidels.)
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Because GoG is obviously a pretty extreme right-wing kipper. (He also appears to have left - perhaps he decided we're all a bunch od commies and infidels.)
Yes I think we are probably back to a basic inability and reluctance to articulate what it is that made people put an X next to leave or whatever.
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I doubt this chap and his daughter deliberatly mixed with innocent bystanders hoping to take some of them with them if anything happens, purely for a propaganda purposes in the same way as those islamist extremests do.
Regards ippy
Yes, would be simpler for the rest of us if governments publish their monthly kill lists, and people on the list promptly travel to a designated killing zone far from normal public life by the last Friday of every month and one missile could take them all out - the costs of the kill and subsequent body parts disposal could be shared amongst the various governments. Explosive munitions and nerve agents aren't exactly known for their precision so using them in public places does pose an obvious risk.
The spies and terrorists could also publish their own list of hits who could arrive promptly for their execution in a remote area. Probably need to look into how that would affect our economy - might be a fall in arms sales and general spending by people profiteering from international conflicts.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43588450
The daughter of the ex Russian spy is improving, which is good news. :)
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43588450
The daughter of the ex Russian spy is improving, which is good news. :)
Is it 'real' news though?
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Is it 'real' news though?
What makes you think it isn't?
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What makes you think it isn't?
I don't. Questioning whether something is correct doesn't necessarily mean that you believe it to be wrong. Given thee murkiness surrounding thrvwhile affair, I think it valid to be wary of all statements about it.
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I don't. Questioning whether something is correct doesn't necessarily mean that you believe it to be wrong. Given thee murkiness surrounding thrvwhile affair, I think it valid to be wary of all statements about it.
Somehow I doubt they would state she was making a recovery if she wasn't, whatever one thinks about the origin of the nerve agent.
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This morning's Express says police are 'closing in on the Russian gangs behind the attack'. So they think it was the work of criminals after all? Interesting interview with an acquaintance of Mr Scripal here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43343805/russian-exile-skripal-targeted-by-criminal-gangs
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Somehow I doubt they would state she was making a recovery if she wasn't, whatever one thinks about the origin of the nerve agent.
Quite. You can take scepticism too far you know. (OMG! I've agreed with LR! :o )
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Well, that's conclusive then
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43633694
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Well, that's conclusive then
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43633694
Conclusive? They haven't located the source.
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Conclusive? They haven't located the source.
It's called sarcasm. Of course it does conclusively show the Foreign Secretary as a liar, as he was already called out on.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/boris-johnson-a-categorical-liar/
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Hopefully we will eventually discover whether the Kremlin ordered the attack, or not.
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(
Hopefully we will eventually discover whether the Kremlin ordered the attack, or not.
Except we have a Foreign Secretary who based on this lied. Shouldn't he be sacked?
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( Except we have a Foreign Secretary who based on this lied. Shouldn't he be sacked?
I think Boris should go for a good number of reasons.
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I think Boris should go for a good number of reasons.
And since he was backed up by May, time for her to go to.
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Hopefully we will eventually discover whether the Kremlin ordered the attack, or not.
But given the lying of our esteemed foreign secretary from the outset, and the related subsequent diplomatic activity involving multiple countries expelling diplomats (and having their own expelled) falling out of his perhaps hasty response and his personal high profile (Boris is no shrinking violet), just whose assessments and reassurances would you now trust?
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But given the lying of our esteemed foreign secretary from the outset
I don't think he's lying; mistaken or misled yes.
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I don't think he's lying; mistaken or misled yes.
Nope, he's a proven liar.
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To me this whole thing seems a deliberate distraction: things aren't going to well at home so create an enemy abroad.
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( Except we have a Foreign Secretary who based on this lied. Shouldn't he be sacked?
Well he lied about the degree of certainty with which Porton Down have identified the source but that doesn't mean there isn't other evidence that the Russians did it.
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But given the lying of our esteemed foreign secretary from the outset, and the related subsequent diplomatic activity involving multiple countries expelling diplomats (and having their own expelled) falling out of his perhaps hasty response and his personal high profile (Boris is no shrinking violet), just whose assessments and reassurances would you now trust?
Whatever we the public know about what happened, I think the government must have really good evidence that Russia is responsible. Even the USA with Trumpski in charge expelled diplomats and had diplomats expelled. If I were them, I Wouldn't do that unless I was completely satisfied that the British government was right, especially given the turnip brain that calls himself our foreign secretary.
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Well he lied about the degree of certainty with which Porton Down have identified the source but that doesn't mean there isn't other evidence that the Russians did it.
And in so lying undermines the overall credibility of any statements from the govt on this.
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And in so lying undermines the overall credibility of any statements from the govt on this.
I can't disagree. Every time that idiot opens his mouth on the telly, I cringe in expectation of some stupidity being let loose on the World stage.
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Whatever we the public know about what happened, I think the government must have really good evidence that Russia is responsible.
Much like the really good evidence Saddam still had wmd's.
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I can't disagree. Every time that idiot opens his mouth on the telly, I cringe in expectation of some stupidity being let loose on the World stage.
and yet there he is FS, and the third in the betting to become OM, after Walter the Softy (favourite) and Jez! Our politics is fucked.
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Much like the really good evidence Saddam still had wmd's.
I certainly hope not.
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Our politics is fucked.
A sentiment that cannot be repeated often enough >:(
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Best comedy in a while
https://www.rt.com/news/438350-petrov-boshirov-interview-simonyan/
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http://newsthump.com/2018/09/13/world-enters-new-post-satire-era/
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Quite interesting to compare this with the "Fine Detail in the Gospels" debate. When asked about why they were in Salisbury, they mentioned the clock at Salisbury Cathedral being the oldest working clock in the world. If they were really in Salisbury to see the Cathedral, we would expect them to mention a detail like that. When I was 11 I went with school on a day trip to Salisbury, and came back with a brass running!
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Brass rubbing
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Quite interesting to compare this with the "Fine Detail in the Gospels" debate. When asked about why they were in Salisbury, they mentioned the clock at Salisbury Cathedral being the oldest working clock in the world. If they were really in Salisbury to see the Cathedral, we would expect them to mention a detail like that.
Have you considered, Spud, that nefarious agents working as assassins (allegedly) for a foreign power might find out about stuff in the local area as part of their cover story!
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This is the original Newsthump thing.
http://newsthump.com/2018/09/12/skirpal-poisoning-suspects-just-massively-into-salisbury-insists-vladimir-putin/
Magenta de Vine. ;D
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From Twitter
'They came from Russia, had a thirst for knowledge,
Liked their spires, were passing Wiltshire College
That’s where I
Caught their eye
All their texts back home were encoded,
Said they knew the way from the station…blindfolded
I said fine
And in 30 seconds time they said
WE WANT TO SEE A COMMON STEEPLE
WE’LL FLY TO SEE WHAT EVER COMMON STEEPLES DO
BUT IF THERE’S SLUSH NEAR THAT COMMON STEEPLE
I’LL TURN BACK FROM THAT COMMON STEEPLE
LIKE YOU DO'
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Quite interesting to compare this with the "Fine Detail in the Gospels" debate. When asked about why they were in Salisbury, they mentioned the clock at Salisbury Cathedral being the oldest working clock in the world. If they were really in Salisbury to see the Cathedral, we would expect them to mention a detail like that. When I was 11 I went with school on a day trip to Salisbury, and came back with a brass running!
Are you claiming that their cover story is legitimate?
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Have you considered, Spud, that nefarious agents working as assassins (allegedly) for a foreign power might find out about stuff in the local area as part of their cover story!
Yes Gordon, just saying that it's logical for them to have been visiting on a day trip, my history teacher thought it was worth taking 30 11 year-olds to see the cathedral.
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Quite interesting to compare this with the "Fine Detail in the Gospels" debate. When asked about why they were in Salisbury, they mentioned the clock at Salisbury Cathedral being the oldest working clock in the world. If they were really in Salisbury to see the Cathedral, we would expect them to mention a detail like that. When I was 11 I went with school on a day trip to Salisbury, and came back with a brass running!
Do you think they may have heard of Mr Google?
ippy
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From Twitter
'They came from Russia, had a thirst for knowledge,
Liked their spires, were passing Wiltshire College
That’s where I
Caught their eye
All their texts back home were encoded,
Said they knew the way from the station…blindfolded
I said fine
And in 30 seconds time they said
WE WANT TO SEE A COMMON STEEPLE
WE’LL FLY TO SEE WHAT EVER COMMON STEEPLES DO
BUT IF THERE’S SLUSH NEAR THAT COMMON STEEPLE
I’LL TURN BACK FROM THAT COMMON STEEPLE
LIKE YOU DO'
Let's be fair, its not like Russians are used to snow...
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Where's the spire?
And where's the steeple?
Get to the door
And poison the Skripals.