Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Grace of God on April 07, 2018, 10:14:59 PM
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is the religion of peace running riot in the entire world..??
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As yet no confirmation that any religion is involved.
Current news is that it is a German national with mental health issues.
Nothing like jumping the gun with your prejudices to the fore.
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is the religion of peace running riot in the entire world..??
No.
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As yet no confirmation that any religion is involved.
Current news is that it is a German national with mental health issues.
Nothing like jumping the gun with your prejudices to the fore.
always mental health issues, weird how that works..
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A terrible tragedy. Don't see what religion has to do with it.
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always mental health issues, weird how that works..
Not if the perpetrator had known mental health issues: perhaps it would better for you to have awaited more information instead of jumping to conclusions.
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always mental health issues, weird how that works..
What is that supposed to mean? A small minority of people with mental health problems (not "issues" - tiresome modern euphemism) are dangerous, though of course the vast majority aren't.
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is the religion of peace running riot in the entire world..??
And which religion would that be?
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And which religion would that be?
He means, very obviously I'd've thought, Islam. However, he's jumping the gun, as the outrage hasn't yet been linked to Islamist terrorism (and even if it eventually is, Islam ans Islamism are two different things).
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He means, very obviously I'd've thought, Islam. However, he's jumping the gun, as the outrage hasn't yet been linked to Islamist terrorism (and even if it eventually is, Islam ans Islamism are two different things).
I didn't realise Islam was supposedly the religion of 'peace'! ::)
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Not if the perpetrator had known mental health issues: perhaps it would better for you to have awaited more information instead of jumping to conclusions.
it always seems so very convenient doesn't it... mind you i'm sure the media will tel us the whole truth....lol
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What is that supposed to mean? A small minority of people with mental health problems (not "issues" - tiresome modern euphemism) are dangerous, though of course the vast majority aren't.
are those who blow themselves up, throwing acid, stabbing people, driving in to people all conveniently mentally ill, probably but what do the majority of them seem to have in common, other than mental illness of course...
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are those who blow themselves up, throwing acid, stabbing people, driving in to people all conveniently mentally ill, probably but what do the majority of them seem to have in common, other than mental illness of course...
Perhaps you might do better to leave the diagnosis and care of people with mental health problems to those with the knowledge and experience to deal with them, and avoid making uniformed generalisations.
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And which religion would that be?
haven't you noticed a certain religion seems to be in the papers for atrocities, perhaps it is coincidence...
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He means, very obviously I'd've thought, Islam. However, he's jumping the gun, as the outrage hasn't yet been linked to Islamist terrorism (and even if it eventually is, Islam ans Islamism are two different things).
are they, who follows the koran??
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Perhaps you might do better to leave the diagnosis and care of people with mental health problems to those with the knowledge and experience to deal with them, and avoid making uniformed generalisations.
so what part of what I said appears uninformed?? would you class throwing acid in peoples face the actions of a well adjusted person??
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The right wing seem to agree with IS, that militant Islamism is the true Islam!
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so what part of what I said appears uninformed??
The bit where you said it was the religion of peace.
And you've gone downhill since then. Quite an achievement given the nature of your OP.
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haven't you noticed a certain religion seems to be in the papers for atrocities, perhaps it is coincidence...
Christianity has been responsible for atrocities over the centuries too.
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Proper Islamic name, Jens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43687875
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Christianity has been responsible for atrocities over the centuries too.
Leaving aside the tu quoque fallacy you just used, neither Christianity nor Islam are responsible for anything over the centuries if you aren't a believer in a god(s).
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Leaving aside the tu quoque fallacy you just used, neither Christianity nor Islam are responsible for anything over the centuries if you aren't a believer in a god(s).
Yeh right! ::)
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Yeh right! ::)
Well yes, it is right. If you don't believe in a god then both religions are just human creations, so giving them responsibility separately would be incorrect
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Well yes, it is right. If you don't believe in a god then both religions are just human creations, so giving them responsibility separately would be incorrect
So Nazism wasn't responsible for any atrocities either? I guess pedantically you could take the view that only individual humans are ever responsible for anything but to discount the influence of belief systems and the organisations that subscribe to them seems to be an extreme position.
Technically a belief cannot kill anybody but people can kill because of a belief they hold.
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So Nazism wasn't responsible for any atrocities either? I guess pedantically you could take the view that only individual humans are ever responsible for anything but to discount the influence of belief systems and the organisations that subscribe to them seems to be an extreme position.
Technically a belief cannot kill anybody but people can kill because of a belief they hold.
Or you could take a rational view, and not try and use the term 'pedantically' as an attempted well poisoning. The point about religious beliefs is that they specifically claim an outside influence, if you argue that they actually have responsibility then you are buying into that approach.
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Or you could take a rational view, and not try and use the term 'pedantically' as an attempted well poisoning.
It's not like saying that an ideology is responsible for things is exactly uncommon in human discourse, so I don't see how you dismissing an instance of it because it's a "human creation" is anything but pedantic.
The point about religious beliefs is that they specifically claim an outside influence, if you argue that they actually have responsibility then you are buying into that approach.
How the hell do you come to that conclusion? How is it that saying a belief is responsible for something, somehow buys into the belief itself?
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It's not like saying that an ideology is responsible for things is exactly uncommon in human discourse, so I don't see how you dismissing an instance of it because it's a "human creation" is anything but pedantic.
How the hell do you come to that conclusion? How is it that saying a belief is responsible for something, somehow buys into the belief itself?
How is the belief itself in any sense responsible? That you can't see the argument as being anything other than 'pedantic' has no use in the question. You are using the term 'pedantic' as some form of charge to make it questionable without actually questioning it logically. Hence the charge of poisoning the well.
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Beliefs can do nothing. Do we have photos of beliefs? Can we touch them? Sample their dna? What weapons do beliefs have?
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How is the belief itself in any sense responsible? That you can't see the argument as being anything other than 'pedantic' has no use in the question. You are using the term 'pedantic' as some form of charge to make it questionable without actually questioning it logically. Hence the charge of poisoning the well.
Firstly, it's debatable to what extent we might say that beliefs themselves are responsible for things - they certainly have a big role in human behaviour.
Secondly, when somebody says that Nazism or communism or whatever is responsible for certain things, it's quite obvious that they mean those people who subscribe to the relevant belief are the ones who actually carried out the actions - which brings us back to pointing that out being pedantry.
Thirdly, you didn't answer my question: how is saying that a belief is responsible for somehow buying into the belief?
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Firstly, it's debatable to what extent we might say that beliefs themselves are responsible for things - they certainly have a big role in human behaviour.
Secondly, when somebody says that Nazism or communism or whatever is responsible for certain things, it's quite obvious that they mean those people who subscribe to the relevant belief are the ones who actually carried out the actions - which brings us back to pointing that out being pedantry.
Thirdly, you didn't answer my question: how is saying that a belief is responsible for somehow buying into the belief?
No, if you don't think there are external things such as gods causing beliefs, then it is not debatable about how much beliefs themselves are responsible for things. They have no agency. And stating that they have a big role in what happens is a truism here unless you are arguing for agency.
And again, if it is about the individuals then the beliefs are merely expressions of the individuals. The problem with the use of the beliefs themselves as being in any sense responsible is that it views things as being 'leadership's because they are external!
As to your question, it's not about buying into the belief itself, but about buying into the idea that beliefs are externally responsible.
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The bit where you said it was the religion of peace.
And you've gone downhill since then. Quite an achievement given the nature of your OP.
it is quite true and obvious, islam is not a religion of peace..
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it is quite true and obvious, islam is not a religion of peace..
Strawman and irrelevant to the case.
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No, if you don't think there are external things such as gods causing beliefs, then it is not debatable about how much beliefs themselves are responsible for things. They have no agency.
Neither would an empty mind. There is much that could be debated about beliefs, memetics, responsibility, and agency but, leaving such esoteric debates aside, the point is this: is anybody really likely to be confused into thinking that phrases such as "Christianity is has been responsible...", "racism is responsible for..." and the like, actually meant anything but that the people who subscribe to those beliefs (possibly under the direction of organisations relating to said beliefs) are the ones who had carried out the actions?
If so, you had a point - if not, you were being pedantic.
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it is quite true and obvious, islam is not a religion of peace..
In your opinion. I wonder how many Muslim friends/acquaintances/colleagues you have. All religions preach 'peace', not all members of those religions practice it.
What that has to do with the recent German atrocity I don't know.
You and Trippymonkey should form a coalition.
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Neither would an empty mind. There is much that could be debated about beliefs, memetics, responsibility, and agency but, leaving such esoteric debates aside, the point is this: is anybody really likely to be confused into thinking that phrases such as "Christianity is has been responsible...", "racism is responsible for..." and the like, actually meant anything but that the people who subscribe to those beliefs (possibly under the direction of organisations relating to said beliefs) are the ones who had carried out the actions?
If so, you had a point - if not, you were being pedantic.
Metonymy.
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Neither would an empty mind. There is much that could be debated about beliefs, memetics, responsibility, and agency but, leaving such esoteric debates aside, the point is this: is anybody really likely to be confused into thinking that phrases such as "Christianity is has been responsible...", "racism is responsible for..." and the like, actually meant anything but that the people who subscribe to those beliefs (possibly under the direction of organisations relating to said beliefs) are the ones who had carried out the actions?
If so, you had a point - if not, you were being pedantic.
Since much of the argument in favour of Christianity and the like is precisely about some form of agency of the belief, then I would suggest yes. Indeed the argument that Littleroses is responding to, is as a pro Christian argument, already doing that.
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Metonymy.
Very good for a postie ;).
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I’m still not sure what Jens the mentally unwell German has to do with Islam.
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Very good for a postie ;).
Watch it, sunshine - this postie's got a 1st-class BA Hons! ;D
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Strawman and irrelevant to the case.
the media must lie every day then, as there seems to be a wealth of proof for islam being no peaceful religion..
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Indeed the argument that Littleroses is responding to, is as a pro Christian argument, already doing that.
No - it was an anti-Islam argument - a religion I'm assuming GoG does not believe in - and LR's response was clearly from the point of view of disbelief.
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I’m still not sure what Jens the mentally unwell German has to do with Islam.
Jens, that is mentally ill, is as mad as your IS, when it comes to driving your car at mild green Germans.
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the media must lie every day then, as there seems to be a wealth of proof for islam being no peaceful religion..
There’s also a lot of stuff in the media about Christianity being a religion of ignorant, prejudiced bigots. Would you say that is accurate?
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No - it was an anti-Islam argument - a religion I'm assuming GoG does not believe in - and LR's response was clearly from the point of view of disbelief.
But GoG does believe in Christianity. And it doesn't matter if you argue from disbelief if you validate the idea that beliefs are somehow external which is GoG's position. You are then inconsistent
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Jens, that is mentally ill, is as mad as your IS, when it comes to driving your car at mild green Germans.
https://youtu.be/-taEaSfPtbY
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By t GoG does believe in Christianity. And it doesn't matter if you argue from fisbelyeg if you validate the idea that beliefs arevsomehow external which is GoG's position. You are then inconsistent
Eh? I assume GoG only thinks his god is real. Where did you get the idea that anybody thinks beliefs themselves are external?
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Eh? I assume GoG only thinks his god is real. Where did you get the idea that anybody thinks beliefs themselves are external?
Well it's clear in most Christian thought that belief in the Christian god is caused by there being a god in the first place. The belief is not something that is caused by humanity.
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Well it's clear in most Christian thought that belief in the Christian god is caused by there being a god in the first place. The belief is not something that is caused by humanity.
What's that got to do with the price of fish? You appear to have gone off on some strange tangent.
GoG was arguing about Islam which he doesn't think is true - LR responded about Christianity which she doesn't think is true. Both then, were talking about what they consider to be untrue beliefs.
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What's that got to do with the price of fish? You appear to have gone off on some strange tangent.
GoG was arguing about Islam which he doesn't think is true - LR responded about Christianity which she doesn't think is true. Both then, were talking about what they consider to be untrue beliefs.
You asked about where did I get the idea that beliefs are themselves external - I pointed out that GoG who is framing the debate and, LR isx responding to, sees those beliefs as forming objective decisions.
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Watch it, sunshine - this postie's got a 1st-class BA Hons! ;D
Kudos to you Mr H (I did know that - if not that you got a 'first' - 'cos you mentioned it on the thread about Jennie Lee), but I wasn't doing down a 'postie'.
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Kudos to you Mr H (I did know that - if not that you got a 'first' - 'cos you mentioned it on the thread about Jennie Lee), but I wasn't doing down a 'postie'.
I did realise you were joking!
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Merely using a metonymy.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/germany-clueless-motive-fatal-van-attack-54317213
This is a terribly sad happening for all concerned. Fail to see why Islam was brought into the discussion.
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So Nazism wasn't responsible for any atrocities either? I guess pedantically you could take the view that only individual humans are ever responsible for anything but to discount the influence of belief systems and the organisations that subscribe to them seems to be an extreme position.
Technically a belief cannot kill anybody but people can kill because of a belief they hold.
It's not being pedantic to point out that it is inaccurate to generalise from a minority of individuals who hold a particular belief about illegally killing people being justified by their interpretation of Islam, to a whole belief system that is held by a worldwide majority that don't believe it is religiously justified to illegally kill people..
For example, out of approximately 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide, the tiny minority of Muslims who hold and act on a belief (that they happen to share with some governments and non-Muslim voters) that bombing/ killing/ assassinating people abroad is justified to achieve political objectives, are not representative of the various interpretations of Islam believed and practised by the majority that prohibit them from killing people to achieve political objectives.
If the minority of interpretations are unrepresentative, it is inaccurate to attribute the actions of the minority to a generalised "Islam" that incorporates the majority. Nazism is different as that refers to the policies of a political leadership in a specific country, rather than a worldwide belief system.
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It's not being pedantic to point out that it is inaccurate to generalise from a minority of individuals who hold a particular belief about illegally killing people being justified by their interpretation of Islam, to a whole belief system that is held by a worldwide majority that don't believe it is religiously justified to illegally kill people..
True but irrelevant to the exchange in question, which was prompted by LR suggesting (#18 (http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=15454.msg727768#msg727768)) that Christianity was responsible for a fair number of atrocities in its history, and was about whether an idea/ideology/religion/sect could actually be responsible for anything.
I think it's GoG you need to be addressing your point to. I agree that you can't associate a minority view with an entire religion.
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Or you could take a rational view, and not try and use the term 'pedantically' as an attempted well poisoning.
Seriously? You were splitting hairs about the difference between Christianity being responsible for deaths and people who are Christians being responsible for deaths and you want to criticise somebody else for pedantry?
The point about religious beliefs is that they specifically claim an outside influence, if you argue that they actually have responsibility then you are buying into that approach.
No, that wasn't the point at all. LR simply claimed that Christians have killed people (frequently other Christians, in fact) in the name of their religion. She made no claim that God made them do it.
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It's not being pedantic to point out that it is inaccurate to generalise from a minority of individuals who hold a particular belief about illegally killing people being justified by their interpretation of Islam, to a whole belief system that is held by a worldwide majority that don't believe it is religiously justified to illegally kill people..
For example, out of approximately 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide, the tiny minority of Muslims who hold and act on a belief (that they happen to share with some governments and non-Muslim voters) that bombing/ killing/ assassinating people abroad is justified to achieve political objectives, are not representative of the various interpretations of Islam believed and practised by the majority that prohibit them from killing people to achieve political objectives.
If the minority of interpretations are unrepresentative, it is inaccurate to attribute the actions of the minority to a generalised "Islam" that incorporates the majority. Nazism is different as that refers to the policies of a political leadership in a specific country, rather than a worldwide belief system.
yet the koran, the book they follow if muslim, says quite clearly kill those who do not believe what you believe, kill them if they will not convert,,
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yet the koran, the book they follow if muslim, says quite clearly kill those who do not believe what you believe, kill them if they will not convert,,
Clearly nothing is that simplistic, hence only a minority of Muslims are using violence to achieve whatever political aims they have, and you don't see the majority believing they have to kill or convert non-Muslims.
A lot of Muslims believe that the verses you are referring to in the Quran are describing historical battles that took place between the newly formed Muslim community in Medina and an army representing the Quraysh tribe from Mecca in Arabia, which had imprisoned, tortured or expelled the Muslims from Mecca, confiscated their property in Mecca, and denied them the right to worship freely.
Hence, once those verses are put in context, a lot of Muslims believe they are following the Quran by not killing every non-Muslim they come across in normal every day life who has no interest in converting to Islam.
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Clearly nothing is that simplistic, hence only a minority of Muslims are using violence to achieve whatever political aims they have, and you don't see the majority believing they have to kill or convert non-Muslims.
A lot of Muslims believe that the verses you are referring to in the Quran are describing historical battles that took place between the newly formed Muslim community in Medina and an army representing the Quraysh tribe from Mecca in Arabia, which had imprisoned, tortured or expelled the Muslims from Mecca, confiscated their property in Mecca, and denied them the right to worship freely.
Hence, once those verses are put in context, a lot of Muslims believe they are following the Quran by not killing every non-Muslim they come across in normal every day life who has no interest in converting to Islam.
or the ones not actually killing are not muslims at all and the real muslims are the ones doing the killing, we also have the ones killing homosexuals do they do it according to sharia law or do they have excuses to..
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or the ones not actually killing are not muslims at all and the real muslims are the ones doing the killing, we also have the ones killing homosexuals do they do it according to sharia law or do they have excuses to..
A "real" Muslim? Interesting idea.
Nothing stopping any individual from deciding their own criteria about who they think is a real Muslim or real Christian or real Jew or real Sikh or real Hindu or real Buddhist or real Pagan etc - various opinions available, and not just on here.
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Again, that's what IS say. It's fake Muslims who are peaceful. So all my Muslim neighbours and friends are not real ones.
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I fail to see what Islam has to do with this or why Grace brought it up; the person who committed the act had no ties to Islamic extremism.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/07/several-dead-car-drives-crowd-german-city-reports-say/
Grace we have a poster called Trippymonkey whom you will see on the 'Islamic Topic' and most recently on 'Eastern Religions' who sees extremist Islam everywhere. Perhaps you two should get together.
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A "real" Muslim? Interesting idea.
Nothing stopping any individual from deciding their own criteria about who they think is a real Muslim or real Christian or real Jew or real Sikh or real Hindu or real Buddhist or real Pagan etc - various opinions available, and not just on here.
it's not about what others decide, it is about what the chosen religious writings say, the koran says kill the infidels, so that is what they must do if they follow the book..
I assume they kill gays for some reason or another that the book gives..
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Tell me please what any of that has to do with 'more deaths in German'?
If you want to discuss the Qu'ran, there is an Islamic Topic section.
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It's no good, Robbie, haters are gonna hate.
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Yeah well perhaps they could go & hate somewhere else. Like the toilet.
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It's no good, Robbie, haters are gonna hate.
You can't shut down debate with that tiresome phrase "haters gonna hate". GoG obviously has a bee in his (her?) bonnet about Islam, and indeed many other things, but it is the case that the Koran espouses killing non-Muslims, and that it has always spread by military conquest rather than peaceful persuasion. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, decent people, but it doesn't come from the Koran. The New Testament, on the other hand, espouses peace and loving one's enemies. Obviously, the Church has often strayerd a long way from that, but whereas Conquistadors and Crusaders were straying away from their religion's tenets, Muslim conquerors and warlords were following Islam's tenets. This answers LR's earlier post about Christian violence. (18.)
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it's not about what others decide, it is about what the chosen religious writings say, the koran says kill the infidels, so that is what they must do if they follow the book..
I assume they kill gays for some reason or another that the book gives..
You are just repeating your reply #55, which I already responded to in #56. You have your idea of how to do religion, others have different ideas. No point in repeating ourselves.
Your ideas about what the Quran says has been discussed many times on the Muslim Board. Feel free to have a look...or not.
Regarding homosexuality - again lots of different interpretations and ideas as there isn't one Islam but as many Islams as there are Muslims.
http://www.newsweek.com/what-does-koran-say-about-being-gay-470570
This discussion is more a topic for the Muslim Board - as Robbie said, Islam is not relevant to the OP.
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You can't shut down debate with that tiresome phrase "haters gonna hate". GoG obviously has a bee in his (her?) bonnet about Islam, and indeed many other things, but it is the case that the Koran espouses killing non-Muslims, and that it has always spread by military conquest rather than peaceful persuasion. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, decent people, but it doesn't come from the Koran. The New Testament, on the other hand, espouses peace and loving one's enemies. Obviously, the Church has often strayerd a long way from that, but whereas Conquistadors and Crusaders were straying away from their religion's tenets, Muslim conquerors and warlords were following Islam's tenets. This answers LR's earlier post about Christian violence. (18.)
I don't think anyone is trying to shut down debate - it would just be better to have the debate on the Muslim Board.
In response to your other points, as I pointed out to GofG in reply #56:
"A lot of Muslims believe that the verses you are referring to in the Quran are describing historical battles that took place between the newly formed Muslim community in Medina and an army representing the Quraysh tribe from Mecca in Arabia, which had imprisoned, tortured or expelled the Muslims from Mecca, confiscated their property in Mecca, and denied them the right to worship freely.
Hence, once those verses are put in context, a lot of Muslims believe they are following the Quran by not killing every non-Muslim they come across in normal every day life who has no interest in converting to Islam."
Regarding the spread of Islam and Christianity - there have been many articles and discussions about the evangelical aspects of the British Empire.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/evangelicalempire.htm
Similarly, while some Muslim leaders did force conversions by military conquest, many parts of the Arab Empire spread for reasons of wealth, defence (creating buffer zones to protect the core), prestige, which would have also resulted in many of its subjects converting to Islam. In places like Indonesia, which is about 87% Muslim, it was a slow process through trading and interaction, but as the Muslim population and power grew in the region there would also have been episodes of military expansion, similar to the expansion of other empires.
Islam is considered the fastest growing religion today and this is not due to military expansion.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/islam-will-largest-religion-world-2070-says-report/
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It's no good, Robbie, haters are gonna hate.
so you think people should like those trying to kill them ... odd idea...
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Yeah well perhaps they could go & hate somewhere else. Like the toilet.
again, should we like the people who want to kill us..
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You are just repeating your reply #55, which I already responded to in #56. You have your idea of how to do religion, others have different ideas. No point in repeating ourselves.
Your ideas about what the Quran says has been discussed many times on the Muslim Board. Feel free to have a look...or not.
Regarding homosexuality - again lots of different interpretations and ideas as there isn't one Islam but as many Islams as there are Muslims.
http://www.newsweek.com/what-does-koran-say-about-being-gay-470570
This discussion is more a topic for the Muslim Board - as Robbie said, Islam is not relevant to the OP.
Again, it doesn't matter how "I do religion", the fact is muslims are killing people, blowing up innocent men, women and children to get in to paradise... it is happening all the time, it needs dealing with, perhaps if some powerful muslim leader stood up and actually said they are not going to heaven, some may stop, at least we would see some denial but we don't see anything...
perhaps if we could talk muslims in to wearing hates that say I am peaceful and no I am not lying about it just because the koran says I can lie about it, that might help...
the fact is those killing infidels can clearly see there book says so..
killing gays it happens in many muslim countries are you saying everyone of them are misinterpreting the koran or sharia.. it seems unlikely and more like a smoke screen, the same one used to cover all of islam's little habits..
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Again, it doesn't matter how "I do religion", the fact is muslims are killing people, blowing up innocent men, women and children to get in to paradise... it is happening all the time, it needs dealing with, perhaps if some powerful muslim leader stood up and actually said they are not going to heaven, some may stop, at least we would see some denial but we don't see anything...
perhaps if we could talk muslims in to wearing hates that say I am peaceful and no I am not lying about it just because the koran says I can lie about it, that might help...
the fact is those killing infidels can clearly see there book says so..
killing gays it happens in many muslim countries are you saying everyone of them are misinterpreting the koran or sharia.. it seems unlikely and more like a smoke screen, the same one used to cover all of islam's little habits..
Not all Muslims are extremists, anymore than all Christians are. It is fundies of both religions who give them a bad name.
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Again, it doesn't matter how "I do religion", the fact is muslims are killing people, blowing up innocent men, women and children to get in to paradise... it is happening all the time, it needs dealing with, perhaps if some powerful muslim leader stood up and actually said they are not going to heaven, some may stop, at least we would see some denial but we don't see anything...
perhaps if we could talk muslims in to wearing hates that say I am peaceful and no I am not lying about it just because the koran says I can lie about it, that might help...
the fact is those killing infidels can clearly see there book says so..
killing gays it happens in many muslim countries are you saying everyone of them are misinterpreting the koran or sharia.. it seems unlikely and more like a smoke screen, the same one used to cover all of islam's little habits..
If you missed all the statements of condemnation of theological justification for terrorism by various Muslim organisations, I can't help you. That's something you will have to discuss with the editor of the Sun or Daily Mail or whatever newspaper you read to keep yourself informed, and question why these statements were not covered by their newspapers.
You can state what you believe the Quran says - whether other people believe your statements or not is a different matter. But if posting your beliefs is a need you have - ok.
There are websites full of claims about what the Quran supposedly says - another poster, Trippy, used to "entertain" people by posting quotes from these websites on the Muslim Board but never did share the name of the translation of the Quran that these websites were using, which probably means they were made up or altered. In response I used to post links to online widely-used Quran translations that conflicted with Trippy's translations. He continued to believe his translations were correct - that was enough for him. Apart from Trippy, there were a few other posters who copied and pasted from the same websites he did. I don't plan on wasting mine or everyone else's time repeating the whole process again with you about what the Quran supposedly says or how different Muslims interpret it in the practice of their religion.
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so you think people should like those trying to kill them ... odd idea...
Remind me - who was it who told us to love our enemies?
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Remind me - who was it who told us to love our enemies?
That guy didn't appear to love the ones he didn't approve of.
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That guy didn't appear to love the ones he didn't approve of.
Telling people hard truths that they need to hear but may not want to hear is an act of love, and that's what "that guy" did.
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Telling people hard truths that they need to hear but may not want to hear is an act of love, and that's what "that guy" did.
In your opinion. Of course we have no idea if anything attributed to Jesus was factual.
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Not all Muslims are extremists, anymore than all Christians are. It is fundies of both religions who give them a bad name.
yet it seems every day another musim atrocity, can they all be coincidence..... what about the massive grooming incidents in Britain, practically every perpetrator was a muslim... more coincidence...
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If you missed all the statements of condemnation of theological justification for terrorism by various Muslim organisations, I can't help you. That's something you will have to discuss with the editor of the Sun or Daily Mail or whatever newspaper you read to keep yourself informed, and question why these statements were not covered by their newspapers.
You can state what you believe the Quran says - whether other people believe your statements or not is a different matter. But if posting your beliefs is a need you have - ok.
There are websites full of claims about what the Quran supposedly says - another poster, Trippy, used to "entertain" people by posting quotes from these websites on the Muslim Board but never did share the name of the translation of the Quran that these websites were using, which probably means they were made up or altered. In response I used to post links to online widely-used Quran translations that conflicted with Trippy's translations. He continued to believe his translations were correct - that was enough for him. Apart from Trippy, there were a few other posters who copied and pasted from the same websites he did. I don't plan on wasting mine or everyone else's time repeating the whole process again with you about what the Quran supposedly says or how different Muslims interpret it in the practice of their religion.
yep I must have missed them all saying don't blow up kids, in the same way i missed them saying don't groom white girls and don't do thighing... guess i have my eyes completely closed...
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guess i have my eyes completely closed...
I wouldn't know, but mind, certainly.
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I wouldn't know, but mind, certainly.
so people shouldn't be outraged by suicide bombers, child grooming, gays being killed or children being sexually assaulted, i'm pleased my mind isn't as closed to human suffering as yours...
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Remind me - who was it who told us to love our enemies?
Indeed, Steve.
And who is my neighbour? Did not the priest and the Levite pass by on the other side?
It would seem that a Christian is someone who totally ignores the teaching of Jesus.
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Indeed, Steve.
And who is my neighbour? Did not the priest and the Levite pass by on the other side?
It would seem that a Christian is someone who totally ignores the teaching of Jesus.
love your enemies of course but it does not mean you make excuses for their behaviour, when Jesus said you brood of vipers, do you think he was being friendly..lol
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yet it seems every day another musim atrocity, can they all be coincidence..... what about the massive grooming incidents in Britain, practically every perpetrator was a muslim... more coincidence...
Oh come on, lots people who are guilty of grooming children aren't Muslims. Grooming has been going on since Adam was a lad, some of the Biblical characters seem to have sex with anything that moved, and you can bet their victims were young, and had no say in the matter. God is supposed to have got Mary pregnant, I suspect she would be considered under age in most Western countries in this day and age.
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Grace seems to be a single minded person with a mission.
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Oh come on, lots people who are guilty of grooming children aren't Muslims. Grooming has been going on since Adam was a lad, some of the Biblical characters seem to have sex with anything that moved, and you can bet their victims were young, and had no say in the matter. God is supposed to have got Mary pregnant, I suspect she would be considered under age in most Western countries in this day and age.
the recent rotherham and area groomings have proven to be about 95% muslim... unfortunately the media have given no warnings to white girls and have kept the information very quiet, a recent labour politician said women who are raped by muslim men should keep their mouths shut in the interest of good relations, this is all very dodgy..
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There is nothing new under the sun.
I remember 'grooming gangs' in the news - some local to me if not on doorstep - tho' they were not always called that, with a different demographic. We talked about them at school, finding it all quite scary and fascinating at the same time. Same MO - taxi firm, cafe on edge of shopping centre.
My mother told me when she was a young person, the demographic was different again but the same things happened.
A lot of that depends on the area in which it takes place. It happens in all other countries too.
People will latch on to perpetrators who are 'different' but there have always been plenty of English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh who have operated illegal prostitution rings and still are.
We can't always blame Maltese, Jamaicans, Pakistanis/Bangladeshis, Russians being the latest......
It's something that's never been dealt with satisfactorily by the law for all sorts of reasons though I think that has improved in recent times.
I wonder about the demographics of the customers?
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There is nothing new under the sun.
I remember 'grooming gangs' in the news - some local to me if not on doorstep - tho' they were not always called that, with a different demographic. We talked about them at school, finding it all quite scary and fascinating at the same time. Same MO - taxi firm, cafe on edge of shopping centre.
My mother told me when she was a young person, the demographic was different again but the same things happened.
A lot of that depends on the area in which it takes place. It happens in all other countries too.
People will latch on to perpetrators who are 'different' but there have always been plenty of English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh who have operated illegal prostitution rings and still are.
We can't always blame Maltese, Jamaicans, Pakistanis/Bangladeshis, Russians being the latest......
It's something that's never been dealt with satisfactorily by the law for all sorts of reasons though I think that has improved in recent times.
I wonder about the demographics of the customers?
more excuses for muslims, so you don't mind muslim child rapists, you don't mind muslim grooming gangs, you don't mind muslim suicide bombers, it isn't hard to guess why??
weird how rape seems to immediately increase around muslim groups especially migrants, what more coincidence...!!!
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My post above was quite clear and objective, anyone else would see that. Some of my work concerns supporting people who have suffered abuse, I also come across people whose behaviour has been quite shocking so you can't teach me anything about man's inhumanity to man. I wonder what personal experience you have or are your opinions fuelled by the media.
I'm not going to rise to the bait Grace; play another tune please.
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My post above was quite clear and objective, anyone else would see that. Some of my work concerns supporting people who have suffered abuse, I also come across people whose behaviour has been quite shocking so you can't teach me anything about man's inhumanity to man. I wonder what personal experience you have or are your opinions fuelled by the media.
I'm not going to rise to the bait Grace; play another tune please.
If you help people who suffer abuse, why do you make excuses for abusers, do you tell the victims it is there fault??
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the recent rotherham and area groomings have proven to be about 95% muslim... unfortunately the media have given no warnings to white girls and have kept the information very quiet, a recent labour politician said women who are raped by muslim men should keep their mouths shut in the interest of good relations, this is all very dodgy..
As this article in the Independent shows, the media are not keeping quiet about the information they have on grooming gangs of Pakistani heritage targeting vulnerable girls and white paedophiles targeting children. There have been reports published based on whatever data they have been able to get - the authors of reports have just highlighted that there is limited data.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/quilliam-grooming-gangs-report-asian-abuse-rotherham-rochdale-newcastle-a8101941.html%3famp
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I wasn't aware I'd ever made excuses for abusers (or blamed victims), I'm pretty sure I haven't; all I have done, or what I tried to do, is point out that abusers come from all sections of the community, not just one. That's a fact. However I realise your experience of life may cause you to see things differently. It's up to you if you want to share any of it with us.
(Hope you won't mind if I don't say anything more that is personal to me - suffice for people to know I'm a very ordinary married woman just gone 58 with two grown up daughters.)
Gabriella, just read your post. A very interesting article, I have read similar before but couldn't remember where.
This:-
“British white men they tend to work individually. They tend to work online where they groom and they are the majority of perpetrators. "
Yes but they do form groups, there are always groups of people of like mind, less obvious than the 'Asian' ones and more difficult to penetrate because of the secrecy involved. The cops have a hard job pinning them down. Interesting that they are the majority of perpetrators, doesn't surprise me at all.
Very tragic business.
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If you help people who suffer abuse, why do you make excuses for abusers, do you tell the victims it is there fault??
Robbie wasn't making excuses for abusers,, imo.
You seem to be suggesting Muslims are the main abusers when there are people of all faiths and none, who sexually abuse others. The Catholic Church has a bad track record in this respect!
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If you help people who suffer abuse, why do you make excuses for abusers, do you tell the victims it is there fault??
If you care so much about people being abused why do you make excuses for white paedophiles abusing children in the UK by pretending this is only a Muslim issue? Do you tell the victims of white paedophiles in the UK that they are just attention-seeking and traitors to their country?? Do you tell the victims of white paedophiles that they are unnecessarily taking the media attention away from Muslim grooming gangs??
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Robbie wasn't making excuses for abusers,, imo.
You seem to be suggesting Muslims are the main abusers when there are people of all faiths and none, who sexually abuse others. The Catholic Church has a bad track record in this respect!
Yes but in their case it was sections of the clergy who were able to hide behind their status (can't do that now because clergy status has been well & truly shattered). Nobody goes around saying all Catholics are abusers, indeed when the abuse first came to light most Catholics were as shocked as anyone else.
In the case of the Muslims it isn't Imams, seems to be more of the less educated type Muslims who drive taxis and/or have little cafes.
Gabriella, over to you, I see you've posted while I've been typing this.
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As this article in the Independent shows, the media are not keeping quiet about the information they have on grooming gangs of Pakistani heritage targeting vulnerable girls and white paedophiles targeting children. There have been reports published based on whatever data they have been able to get - the authors of reports have just highlighted that there is limited data.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/quilliam-grooming-gangs-report-asian-abuse-rotherham-rochdale-newcastle-a8101941.html%3famp
i wonder why the media hid it and everyone denied it was even happening for years...
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If you care so much about people being abused why do you make excuses for white paedophiles abusing children in the UK by pretending this is only a Muslim issue? Do you tell the victims of white paedophiles in the UK that they are just attention-seeking and traitors to their country?? Do you tell the victims of white paedophiles that they are unnecessarily taking the media attention away from Muslim grooming gangs??
of course there are white paedophiles, i would not say otherwise, yet paedophilia seems to follow muslims around like a bad smell, perhaps it is because there alleged prophet married a child and they follow his example...
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of course there are white paedophiles, i would not say otherwise, yet paedophilia seems to follow muslims around like a bad smell, perhaps it is because there alleged prophet married a child and they follow his example...
The report in the Independent article stated that 100% of the paedophiles who target children because the peadophiles have a prior interest in having sex with children were white. Why were 100% of those types of paedophiles white? What’s your view on how their race or culture led them to thinking that having sex with children here or travelling to foreign countries to have sex with children is ok? And do you think the media are doing enough to highlight the plight of foreign children abroad who are preyed on by these white sex tourists? Or do you think that has been covered up too?
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of course there are white paedophiles, i would not say otherwise
By the way, you didn’ answer the question. Do you tell their victims to not report the abuse because if it got in the media that might cause problems for the white community? Would you prefer the media did not report on white paedophiles in case people start a political party here calling for white people to leave Britain in case they are paedophiles?
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The report in the Independent article stated that 100% of the paedophiles who target children because the peadophiles have a prior interest in having sex with children were white. Why were 100% of those types of paedophiles white? What’s your view on how their race or culture led them to thinking that having sex with children here or travelling to foreign countries to have sex with children is ok? And do you think the media are doing enough to highlight the plight of foreign children abroad who are preyed on by these white sex tourists? Or do you think that has been covered up too?
and what does that have to do with the obvious problem muslim have with raping white girls... of course allah, and mo think it's ok, perhaps that is why muslims have a problem with it...
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and what does that have to do with the obvious problem muslim have with raping white girls... of course allah, and mo think it's ok, perhaps that is why muslims have a problem with it...
Best way really - to focus exclusively on Muslims if you want to distract attention from the widespread abuse of children by white paedophiles - or is this more you burying your head in the sand and pretending children aren't being sexually abused by white paedophiles?
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Best way really - to focus exclusively on Muslims if you want to distract attention from the widespread abuse of children by white paedophiles - or is this more you burying your head in the sand and pretending children aren't being sexually abused by white paedophiles?
no one wants to distract from child abuse, I could ask why you want to focus on a few whites when muslims all around the world are allowed to rape children and allah doesn't seem to mind, are you racist or something...
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no one wants to distract from child abuse, I could ask why you want to focus on a few whites when muslims all around the world are allowed to rape children and allah doesn't seem to mind, are you racist or something...
So you must be happy that the media reported that from the data available for the report on child sex abuse, it appears that 100% of the paedophikes who have a prior interest in having sex with children are white. Since no one wants to distract from child abuse it must be a relief to you to know that the police are aware there is a particular problem with these types of white paedophiles. What do you think the white community should do about it so they don’t get accused of burying their heads in the sand or there aren’t accusations that the British government are allowing white paedophiles to rape children.
The report I linked to focuses on gangs of men of Pakistani heritage who are grooming girls, not just the white paedophiles, so no not racist. Happy to discuss both aspects of the report. Why are you just focusing on Muslims if you really do care about child sex abuse victims as you claim. Don’t you care about the victims of the many white paedophiles as well - the ones who travel abroad and prey on poor children in foreign countries for example.
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So you must be happy that the media reported that from the data available for the report on child sex abuse, it appears that 100% of the paedophikes who have a prior interest in having sex with children are white. Since no one wants to distract from child abuse it must be a relief to you to know that the police are aware there is a particular problem with these types of white paedophiles. What do you think the white community should do about it so they don’t get accused of burying their heads in the sand or there aren’t accusations that the British government are allowing white paedophiles to rape children.
The report I linked to focuses on gangs of men of Pakistani heritage who are grooming girls, not just the white paedophiles, so no not racist. Happy to discuss both aspects of the report. Why are you just focusing on Muslims if you really do care about child sex abuse victims as you claim. Don’t you care about the victims of the many white paedophiles as well - the ones who travel abroad and prey on poor children in foreign countries for example.
yet we still have the problem with rape where ever muslims go, it could be coincidence or it could be that the muslim men like to follow the teachings and habits of the koran, where taking child brides was common place and so was raping them... and allah didn't seem to mind... so why should muslims...
Of the 306 offenders whose ethnicity was noted, 75 per cent were categorised as Asian, 17 per cent white, and the remaining 8 per cent black (5 per cent) or Arab (3 per cent).
75 % and when you consider the mumbers we have of asians that 75% is huge.... 97% of victims were white.... wwas it considered a series of racist attacks... no ..
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Following on from Gabriella's post:-
Plus the trafficking of kids from other countries for sexual exploitation & domestic slavery here, in the USA and many other parts of the world. Also the importation of young women from eastern european countries who are promised jobs and find themselves working as escorts or in a brothel - or as slaves. Sometimes ending up murdered. There are many heartbreaking stories stemming from quite sophisticated organisations specialising in vice. As the law gets on to one, another springs up.
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yet we still have the problem with rape where ever muslims go, it could be coincidence or it could be that the muslim men like to follow the teachings and habits of the koran, where taking child brides was common place and so was raping them... and allah didn't seem to mind... so why should muslims...
Of the 306 offenders whose ethnicity was noted, 75 per cent were categorised as Asian, 17 per cent white, and the remaining 8 per cent black (5 per cent) or Arab (3 per cent).
75 % and when you consider the mumbers we have of asians that 75% is huge.... 97% of victims were white.... wwas it considered a series of racist attacks... no ..
I see you are burying your head in the sand about the 100% of white paedophiles who were classified as having a prior interest in having sex with children. Why do you not care about the victims of these paedophiles and do you tell the victims it was their fault for reporting white paedophiles to the authorities?
You seem to like coming up with theories - what is your explanation for the 100% white ethnicity of these types of paedophiles, given that Britain is not 100% white? What is your theory about white skin and paedophilia? It could be coincidence or maybe you think paedophilia follows wherever white people go? And not just in the UK but in places like Thailand, Sri Lanka - lots of white paedophiles travel to those types of places to exploit and sexually abuse poor children.Why do you prefer to distract people from this truth, if you care about the child victims of paedophiles as you claim?
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I see you are burying your head in the sand about the 100% of white paedophiles who were classified as having a prior interest in having sex with children. Why do you not care about the victims of these paedophiles and do you tell the victims it was their fault for reporting white paedophiles to the authorities?
You seem to like coming up with theories - what is your explanation for the 100% white ethnicity of these types of paedophiles, given that Britain is not 100% white? What is your theory about white skin and paedophilia? It could be coincidence or maybe you think paedophilia follows wherever white people go? And not just in the UK but in places like Thailand, Sri Lanka - lots of white paedophiles travel to those types of places to exploit and sexually abuse poor children.Why do you prefer to distract people from this truth, if you care about the child victims of paedophiles as you claim?
i have already said whites do it but it does not make it acceptable...
The 27 court cases that we found led to the convictions of 92 men. Some 79 (87 per cent) were reported as being of South Asian Muslim origin.
muslims carry it on all around the world where ever they are, the difference is everyone who is normal is against the idea of raping children but for some reason allah and the koran have no problem with it at all, that is a very worrying fact, allah condones the abuse of children, it's hardly surprising of their god condones it that they don't see nay problem with it... and of course mohammed's ecxample is just as bad, this is why child rape is an epidemic among muslims...
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i have already said whites do it but it does not make it acceptable...
The 27 court cases that we found led to the convictions of 92 men. Some 79 (87 per cent) were reported as being of South Asian Muslim origin.
muslims carry it on all around the world where ever they are, the difference is everyone who is normal is against the idea of raping children but for some reason allah and the koran have no problem with it at all, that is a very worrying fact, allah condones the abuse of children, it's hardly surprising of their god condones it that they don't see nay problem with it... and of course mohammed's ecxample is just as bad, this is why child rape is an epidemic among muslims...
Yes but do you have answers for the 100% white statistic in the report for paedophiles who have a prior interest in sex with children? Why are whites carrying out rape of children all around the world, wherever they are - they even go on holiday just to do that to foreign children. As you like to point out - were these considered a series of racist attacks? Child rape is an epidemic among whites based on your reasoning.
According to the Judge in one of the Newcastle grooming cases "while sentencing members of the gang at Newcastle Crown Court, Judge Penny Moreland said they picked out their victims “not because of their race, but because they were young, impressionable, naive and vulnerable”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/newcastle-grooming-gang-asian-white-girls-not-targeted-race-judge-court-sentencing-rape-sexual-a7931276.html
Apparently the police have changed their approach to grooming gangs, as their approach was giving the perpetrators the impression that they were unlikely to be prosecuted.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-uk-britain-newcastle-serious-case-review-operation-sanctuary-shelter-muslim-asian-a8225106.html
Your belief in Allah and your beliefs and opinions about what Allah condones are fascinating to read - but of course other beliefs and opinions are available about Aisha's age. For example "Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19.
Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth
Did you have something specific from the Quran to share on this issue?
Makes a change from all the assertions on here about the Bible, Jesus, and Christianity I suppose. I get quite busy at work sometimes so I might not be able to respond for a while, but all this attention on Muslims is starting to make me feel all warm and wanted ;)
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"Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19.
Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse."
Aisha's age is therefore most likely to have been somewhere in the middle of that range, 13-15 - which is considered much too young in modern Western society, but wasn't in other times and places, and girls of that age would probaby at least have reached puberty. Juiet Capulet, and Mary, Jesus's mother, were probably only in their mid-teens.
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Agree Steven. In our part of the world girls and boys were considered to be adult at a much younger age than now & were often married - even before puberty.. IIt seems scandalous by today's standards. I must say I'm glad about that but had I lived in mediaeval times I may have felt differently.
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Yes but do you have answers for the 100% white statistic in the report for paedophiles who have a prior interest in sex with children? Why are whites carrying out rape of children all around the world, wherever they are - they even go on holiday just to do that to foreign children. As you like to point out - were these considered a series of racist attacks? Child rape is an epidemic among whites based on your reasoning.
According to the Judge in one of the Newcastle grooming cases "while sentencing members of the gang at Newcastle Crown Court, Judge Penny Moreland said they picked out their victims “not because of their race, but because they were young, impressionable, naive and vulnerable”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/newcastle-grooming-gang-asian-white-girls-not-targeted-race-judge-court-sentencing-rape-sexual-a7931276.html
Apparently the police have changed their approach to grooming gangs, as their approach was giving the perpetrators the impression that they were unlikely to be prosecuted.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-uk-britain-newcastle-serious-case-review-operation-sanctuary-shelter-muslim-asian-a8225106.html
Your belief in Allah and your beliefs and opinions about what Allah condones are fascinating to read - but of course other beliefs and opinions are available about Aisha's age. For example "Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19.
Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth
Did you have something specific from the Quran to share on this issue?
Makes a change from all the assertions on here about the Bible, Jesus, and Christianity I suppose. I get quite busy at work sometimes so I might not be able to respond for a while, but all this attention on Muslims is starting to make me feel all warm and wanted ;)
what tosh, everyone knows mohammed's child bride was 5 years old he had sex with her when she was 9 years old..
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what tosh, everyone knows mohammed's child bride was 5 years old he had sex with her when she was 9 years old..
Or everyone knows it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse."
You do know you don't need to fake concern for child victims of paedophiles if all you really want to do is share your beliefs about all things Islam. The Muslim board is full of threads started by people who want to share their beliefs about Islam, Prophet Mohamed, the Quran, Muslims etc. You should go play there - I'm sure Trippy would welcome a little friend.
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He's already met the Tripster, Gabriella. One could say a marriage made in Heaven, however I have a feeling Grace is taking the proverbial& is not all he seemsto be.
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He's already met the Tripster, Gabriella. One could say a marriage made in Heaven, however I have a feeling Grace is taking the proverbial& is not all he seemsto be.
Just look up Douglas Murry on YouTube where he speaks about any aspect of Islam, there's plenty of it, for me he has it summed up in a nutshell.
ippy
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I'll pass on that one Ippy but I am familiar with Douglas Murray & have read some of what he has published.