Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on April 18, 2018, 08:13:37 AM
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The idea that this can be blamed on mistakes by civil servants as opposed to a result of Tory policy is a shocking piece of lying. May should resign.
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We can but live in hope.
The track record of this government however is that they do not accept responsibility for any policies that go wrong. It always comes as a surprise that for example University fees are quite so high. Or that violent crime figures are rising at the same time that police numbers are cut; or that waiting times in hospitals go up because they have cut social care to the bone.
Now while the link between correlation & cause are notoriously difficult to prove, there are enough examples of this for people to start paying attention.
Their attitude - nothing to do with us; look over there at the anti-semitic, Russian loving, nuke hating opposition; has long been one of misdirection and obfuscation. They are masters of the trade.
You wrote elsewhere you don't know how anyone could vote for Labour presently, which is a valid question; but the much more pertinent question is how can anyone vote for the Tories as they are so inept and so uncaring.
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We can but live in hope.
The track record of this government however is that they do not accept responsibility for any policies that go wrong. It always comes as a surprise that for example University fees are quite so high. Or that violent crime figures are rising at the same time that police numbers are cut; or that waiting times in hospitals go up because they have cut social care to the bone.
Now while the link between correlation & cause are notoriously difficult to prove, there are enough examples of this for people to start paying attention.
Their attitude - nothing to do with us; look over there at the anti-semitic, Russian loving, nuke hating opposition; has long been one of misdirection and obfuscation. They are masters of the trade.
You wrote elsewhere you don't know how anyone could vote for Labour presently, which is a valid question; but the much more pertinent question is how can anyone vote for the Tories as they are so inept and so uncaring.
Surely both are pertinent. That it seems to me impossible to vote Labour at the moment, does not mean that I think it's possible to vote Tory. Further I don't think this policy went wrong rather they misjudged public opinion. The outcome was deliberate - May should resign.
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If May is found to be responsible she certainly should resign. >:( The Windrush generation helped rebuild the UK after WW2.
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Surely both are pertinent. That it seems to me impossible to vote Labour at the moment, does not mean that I think it's possible to vote Tory. Further I don't think this policy went wrong rather they misjudged public opinion. The outcome was deliberate - May should resign.
Yes 'wrong' was an incorrect choice of word. Obviously the choices made by the government were deliberate and calculated. It is their 'faux' surprise that annoys and irritates me.
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The idea that this can be blamed on mistakes by civil servants as opposed to a result of Tory policy is a shocking piece of lying. May should resign.
Clownshair go of her own volition? Doubt it.
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If May is found to be responsible she certainly should resign. >:( The Windrush generation helped rebuild the UK after WW2.
She was in charge of the home office when the legislation was introduced - she is responsible.
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Clownshair go of her own volition? Doubt it.
Didn't say will, said should.
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Didn't say will, said should.
Yes, she's just lurching from one grotesque bollock to another.
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The idea that this can be blamed on mistakes by civil servants as opposed to a result of Tory policy is a shocking piece of lying. May should resign.
You could argue this is down to Cameron. She was is Home Secretary doing his bidding.
Whatever, the policy was deliberate and they wouldn’t be reversing it were it not for the outrage of the public and the vocal opposition from some MPs and organisations.
And if any twats talk about deselecting David Lammy for being ‘disloyal to Jeremy’ after this they should be ashamed.
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You could argue this is down to Cameron. She was is Home Secretary doing his bidding.
Whatever, the policy was deliberate and they wouldn’t be reversing it were it not for the outrage of the public and the vocal opposition from some MPs and organisations.
And if any twats talk about deselecting David Lammy for being ‘disloyal to Jeremy’ after this they should be ashamed.
We don't live in a dictatorship, there is both cabinet govt and ministerial responsibility, or rather there should be. Cameron is gone. May was Home Secretary at the time and PM since - she should resign.
The Labour Party in its current state is broken and unelectable
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We don't live in a dictatorship, there is both cabinet govt and ministerial responsibility, or rather there should be. Cameron is gone. May was Home Secretary at the time and PM since - she should resign.
The Labour Party in its current state is broken and unelectable
I don't know about that. I think the GBP just loved being f'd by posh boys.
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I don't know about that. I think the GBP just loved being f'd by posh boys.
What's that got to do with the fuck up in a debate over anti-Semitism where people are accusing supporters of their leader of issuing death threats and rape threats. Or with putting forward motions in the HoC that they abstain on, or vote against. That the Tories ran a racist policy doesn't make the Labour Party electable in their current state.
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What's that got to do with the fuck up in a debate over anti-Semitism where people are accusing supporters of their leader of issuing death threats and rape threats. Or with putting forward motions in the HoC that they abstain on, or vote against. That the Tories ran a racist policy doesn't make the Labour Party electable in their current state.
No labour party are electable because of the historically imprinted desire of the GBP to be treated mean, to suffer the monumental hypocrisy of Conservatism on race and ethnicity because as we all know under the Tories Rodney next year we ''could all be Miwionaires, my son''.
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No labour party are electable because of the historically imprinted desire of the GBP to be treated mean, to suffer the monumental hypocrisy of Conservatism on race and ethnicity because as we all know under the Tories Rodney next year we ''could all be Miwionaires, my son''.
I think you mean unelectable but to blame the voters for a party in a death struggle with itself is a further indication of why it's unelectable.
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I think you mean unelectable but to blame the voters for a party in a death struggle with itself is a further indication of why it's unelectable.
I think you might be slipping into the Tory narrative which is now moving on to only Tories can govern.....The old born to rule schtick. Another manifestation of ''get back to your hutchism''
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I think you might be slipping into the Tory narrative which is now moving on to only Tories can govern.....The old born to rule schtick. Another manifestation of ''get back to your hutchism''
No. false dichotomy - the Tories are a bunch a racist bastards based on the scandal over Windrush - doesn't stop the Labour party being unelectable because it's about to kill itself.
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No. false dichotomy - the Tories are a bunch a racist bastards based on the scandal over Windrush - doesn't stop the Labour party being unelectable because it's about to kill itself.
I thought it was dead after Miliband and the Brexit referendum. It survived thanks to Corbyn but we are as a people succumbing to neo feudalism where too many people are beginning to know there place and have become too accepting. Corbyn as far as I get it refuses to comply to the paradigm and has had more success than the Blairite forces with nothing new to offer. Goodness knows Blair himself has been unable to make a dent on his return because he is insufficiently alternative.
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I thought it was dead after Miliband and the Brexit referendum. It survived thanks to Corbyn but we are as a people succumbing to neo feudalism where too many people are beginning to know there place and have become too accepting. Corbyn as far as I get it refuses to comply to the paradigm and has had more success than the Blairite forces with nothing new to offer. Goodness knows Blair himself has been unable to make a dent on his return because he is insufficiently alternative.
What's that got to do with it killing itself over anti Semitism, or puts forwards votes that it abstains on or votes against. You aren't dealing with any of the issues just indulging in whataboutery, and blaming the voters which shows that you think you are dying.
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What's that got to do with it killing itself over anti Semitism, or puts forwards votes that it abstains on or votes against. You aren't dealing with any of the issues just indulging in whataboutery, and blaming the voters which shows that you think you are dying.
If voters are prepared to damn a party at the forefront of every progressive move toward racial equality to extinction yet completely forgive the Conservatives what looks like government and institution by racism then that I would move is a pretty damning indictment of the electorate.
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If voters are prepared to damn a party at the forefront of every progressive move toward racial equality to extinction yet completely forgive the Conservatives what looks like government and institution by racism then that I would move is a pretty damning indictment of the electorate.
It's its own MPs that are damning it over antisemitism. How would death threats against those MPs be at the forefront of racial equality? Again you are going down the false dichotomy route
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It's its own MPs that are damning it over antisemitism. How would death threats against those MPs be at the forefront of racial equality? Again you are going down the false dichotomy route
It is in those MP's purvue then to be perfectly clear on what they want from the party even if that is to have the issue as an all day barbeque of Jeremy Corbyn.
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It is in those MP's purvue then to be perfectly clear on what they want from the party even if that is to have the issue as an all day barbeque of Jeremy Corbyn.
And what they want is a fight to the death in the party, because they believe other members are threatening o kill them and rape their them - but you think that's electable
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And what they want is a fight to the death in the party, because they believe other members are threatening o kill them and rape their them - but you think that's electable
Anybody found doing that must have the full weight of the law. Labour's membership if you remember is drawn from those who were prepared to stump up £3. If one is saying though that Labour is a party of rapists and murders then that is a complete and disgusting slur and daft conspiracy theory to boot.
I feel you are seeking any justification and accomodation for ploughing on with a local experiment to get rid of Conservatism which has ended up in aiding to entrench it.
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I feel you are seeking any justification and accomodation for ploughing on with a local experiment to get rid of Conservatism which has ended up in aiding to entrench it.
I don't understand this. Are you referring to the SNP? If so, that seems a false argument to me. The SNP would be able to vote with the Labour party if they felt it necessary on any given issue to attempt to defeat the government. If the numbers were right they could form some kind of alliance. Unlikely I realise, but still possible.
Surely quite often politics is local in nature. Be it local to Scotland, N.Ireland, England, Wales or the regions.
I don't see any attempt at justifiying a local experiment by rightly criticizing worrying aspects within the Labour party. The two simply are not linked.
Your argument sounds profoundly undemocratic to me. Although, admittedly I may have misunderstood your poorly worded post.
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Anybody found doing that must have the full weight of the law. Labour's membership if you remember is drawn from those who were prepared to stump up £3. If one is saying though that Labour is a party of rapists and murders then that is a complete and disgusting slur and daft conspiracy theory to boot.
I feel you are seeking any justification and accomodation for ploughing on with a local experiment to get rid of Conservatism which has ended up in aiding to entrench it.
No, I'm not saying that - stop lying. I'm saying that Labour MPs think members supporting the leader have threatened then with death and rape,
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news
I would appear the last Labour Government in 2009 decided to get rid of the landing cards. Not that it excuses May's part in this debacle, but it doesn't do Labour any favours either.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news
I would appear the last Labour Government in 2009 decided to get rid of the landing cards. Not that it excuses May's part in this debacle, but it doesn't do Labour any favours either.
Except the landing cards are only significant because of the 2014 act introduced by May. It's her deliberate policy, her responsibility, she should resign and this is just an attempt to hide that by evasion
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Except the landing cards are only significant because of the 2014 act introduced by May. It's her deliberate policy, her responsibility, she should resign and this is just an attempt to hide that by evasion
True, but it still doesn't do Labour any favours either, especially as they have been claiming it was May who destroyed the cards!
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True, but it still doesn't do Labour any favours either, especially as they have been claiming it was May who destroyed the cards!
Well so far it would appear only to be her word for it. Jacqui Smith and Alan Johnson have no recollection of it. So I think the jury is still out on who destroyed the cards.
The fact is that it was Tory legislation that gave rise to this disgraceful situation. They are responsible for the hurt caused. Not the Labour party and not the civil servants who destroyed the cards.
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True, but it still doesn't do Labour any favours either, especially as they have been claiming it was May who destroyed the cards!
They didn't cause the problem - May did. It's unclear from the report who destroyed the cards rather that the decision was taken under Labour - but since at the time it wasn't a problematic decision because the Tories hadn't introduced the legislation it's fairly irrelevant. The responsibility for this lies with May as Home Scretary at the time of the legislation that caused this - she needs to resign. Her using this as evasion just makes it worse.
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They didn't cause the problem - May did. It's unclear from the report who destroyed the cards rather that the decision was taken under Labour - but since at the time it wasn't a problematic decision because the Tories hadn't introduced the legislation it's fairly irrelevant. The responsibility for this lies with May as Home Scretary at the time of the legislation that caused this - she needs to resign. Her using this as evasion just makes it worse.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Corbyn didn't deny the claim.
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Corbyn didn't deny the claim.
I don't understand this. Are you referring to the SNP? If so, that seems a false argument to me. The SNP would be able to vote with the Labour party if they felt it necessary on any given issue to attempt to defeat the government. If the numbers were right they could form some kind of alliance. Unlikely I realise, but still possible.
Surely quite often politics is local in nature. Be it local to Scotland, N.Ireland, England, Wales or the regions.
I don't see any attempt at justifiying a local experiment by rightly criticizing worrying aspects within the Labour party. The two simply are not linked.
Your argument sounds profoundly undemocratic to me. Although, admittedly I may have misunderstood your poorly worded post.
But I'm afraid as your post shows, there is a complete lack of perspective over labour which has, through a process undoubtedly involving several Conservatives of note, ended with the Labour Party being the British equivalent of the Nazi party and a pyre with which to permanently roast Corbyn. Given that then. How much ''right'' criticism has there been?
Anybody should be able to spell out what they want from labour, but no. Name me a group that has been absolutely clear in it's expectations of Corbyn.......In my view there are none. They just, seemingly want to milk this.
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Corbyn didn't deny the claim.
Which is irrelevant to the point I made. The cards only become significant post the 2014 racist legislation introduced by May. Her policy created this. Her responsibility - she should resign
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But I'm afraid as your post shows, there is a complete lack of perspective over labour which has, through a process undoubtedly involving several Conservatives of note, ended with the Labour Party being the British equivalent of the Nazi party and a pyre with which to permanently roast Corbyn. Given that then. How much ''right'' criticism has there been?
Anybody should be able to spell out what they want from labour, but no. Name me a group that has been absolutely clear in it's expectations of Corbyn.......In my view there are none. They just, seemingly want to milk this.
And yes, the Tory party put up an obvious trap but it's the Labour Party that threw themselves into it, and while they were doing it Corbyn didn't take the chance to speak. They aren't unelectable because of Corbyn, they are unelectable because they are a party at war
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Corbyn didn't deny the claim.
He probably didn't have the facts to hand.
So far whistleblowers have thrown doubt on Conservative claims.
I find it odd that the documents were thrown away in 2010 chiefly a Tory year and the decision was allegedly made in 2009.
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And yes, the Tory party put up an obvious trap but it's the Labour Party that threw themselves into it, and while they were doing it Corbyn didn't take the chance to speak. They aren't unelectable because of Corbyn, they are unelectable because they are a party at war
And of course the Tories are never a party at war.
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And of course the Tories are never a party at war.
Again where am I arguing for the Tories to indulge in your whataboutery?
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But I'm afraid as your post shows, there is a complete lack of perspective over labour which has, through a process undoubtedly involving several Conservatives of note, ended with the Labour Party being the British equivalent of the Nazi party and a pyre with which to permanently roast Corbyn. Given that then. How much ''right'' criticism has there been?
Anybody should be able to spell out what they want from labour, but no. Name me a group that has been absolutely clear in it's expectations of Corbyn.......In my view there are none. They just, seemingly want to milk this.
Oh you are misunderstanding me.
I am sure in my own mind that there is a concerted effort to undermine Corbyn on the issue of anti-Semitism - likely engineered in part by the Tories. However his complete inability to grasp the issue and turn it to his advantage shows either his naivety or incompetence, or both. I admire him (although not always agree with him) on many issues. His economic judgement is imo wanting, although that is not a deal breaker for me as the Tories are at least as bad; but his failure to lay this issue to rest really stinks of some kind of reluctance to act; which I think is due to lack of ability rather than anti-Semitism.
It is the perception created of lack of ability that worries me somewhat.
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Oh you are misunderstanding me.
I am sure in my own mind that there is a concerted effort to undermine Corbyn on the issue of anti-Semitism - likely engineered in part by the Tories. However his complete inability to grasp the issue and turn it to his advantage shows either his naivety or incompetence, or both. I admire him (although not always agree with him) on many issues. His economic judgement is imo wanting, although that is not a deal breaker for me as the Tories are at least as bad; but his failure to lay this issue to rest really stinks of some kind of reluctance to act; which I think is due to lack of ability rather than anti-Semitism.
It is the perception created of lack of ability that worries me somewhat.
Im sorry but Labour wrong Tory right is ingrained in the British Psyche because after all ''next year we could all be miwionares, Rodney, My son.''
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Im sorry but Labour wrong Tory right is ingrained in the British Psyche because after all ''next year we could all be miwionares, Rodney, My son.''
You don't have to be sorry.
But Corbyn does at least have to appear competent, to stand a chance of overcoming the implications of your OF&H allusion.
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You don't have to be sorry.
But Corbyn does, at least have to appear competent to stand a chance of overcoming the implications of your OF&H allusion.
I fear we have another ten years of Conservatism simply because 18 years is a tory innings.
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I fear we have another ten years of Conservatism simply because 18 years is a tory innings.
You need to cheer up.
A weeks a long time in politics and all that. ;)
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People are screaming for May to resign, but I can't think of anyone else in her party who is up to the job.
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People are screaming for May to resign, but I can't think of anyone else in her party who is up to the job.
So you think that someone who introduced the legislation that caused the racist approach to Windrush and then isn't taken responsibility for it but is lying by evasion is up to the job of PM?
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So you think that someone who introduced the legislation that caused the racist approach to Windrush and then isn't taken responsibility for it but is lying by evasion is up to the job of PM?
So who should take her place?
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So who should take her place?
Not my business. Not a Tory party member. I just don't think we should have a lying incompetent racist as PM . You seem to think that's ok.
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I just don't think we should have a lying incompetent racist as PM
That narrows the field more than somewhat.
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Not my business. Not a Tory party member. I just don't think we should have a lying incompetent racist as PM . You seem to think that's ok.
Where did I say it was ok? I am concerned that if May goes we might be saddled with Johnson, or worse still that idiot Gove! :o
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Where did I say it was ok? I am concerned that if May goes we might be saddled with Johnson, or worse still that idiot Gove! :o
Well not resigning makes it ok for her to ne PM. It also makes it ok not to accept responsibility. Given what she has done and continues to lie about she is not fit to be PM. If she doesn't resign it pisses on the office, and upon us.
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Do we know with absolute certainty that May is racist and lying, or is it an assumption?
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Do we know with absolute certainty that May is racist and lying, or is it an assumption?
She's lying that the cards issue has any effect because they only become important after the 2014 legislation, and for not admitting that it's her legislation that caused the issue. She's racist for introducing the legislation. Absolute certainty is a nonsensical concept. And absolute certainty vs an assumption is a false dichotomy
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She's lying that the cards issue has any effect because they only become important after the 2014 legislation, and for not admitting that it's her legislation that caused the issue. She's racist for introducing the legislation. Absolute certainty is a nonsensical concept. And absolute certainty vs an assumption is a false dichotomy
I wonder if it was the SNP leader who was in frame for this if you would be roundly condemning her, or looking for an excuse for her conduct, just a thought?
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I wonder if it was the SNP leader who was in frame for this if you would be roundly condemning her, or looking for an excuse for her conduct, just a thought?
Yes, why wouldn't I? And what difference would that make to whether May is fit to be PM?
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Yes, why wouldn't I? And what difference would that make to whether May is fit to be PM?
I rest my case! ::)
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I rest my case! ::)
Eh?
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Do we know with absolute certainty that May is racist and lying, or is it an assumption?
The buck stops with her LR & she's obviously out of her depth. I too don't know who would replace her as Tory leader.People don't have to vote Tory though,they could go green or something ;).
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More reasons for May to resign.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/18/mother-of-windrush-citizen-blames-passport-problems-for-his-death
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May is using the anti-Semitism affair in labour as a get out of jail free card on the Windrush affair, and admitted as much in statements in parliament.
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May is using the anti-Semitism affair in labour as a get out of jail free card on the Windrush affair, and admitted as much in statements in parliament.
Fully agree with this, it was a disgusting piece of whataboutery and distraction.
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Fully agree with this, it was a disgusting piece of whataboutery and distraction.
The BBC have a report that the decision to generally dispense with paper records was taken in 2009. It seems to me that that could just be a general notice to shift to electronic records.
The actual decision to specifically destroy landing records was apparently taken in October 2010.
report here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710
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The BBC have a report that the decision to generally dispense with paper records was taken in 2009. It seems to me that that could just be a general notice to shift to electronic records.
The actual decision to specifically destroy landing records was apparently taken in October 2010.
report here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710
Yep, already been arguing on here that the getting rid of records is only significant because of May's 2014 legislation. But apparently LR has made her case on that so I am undone.
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I rest my case! ::)
And again eh?
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I rest my case! ::)
I don't get that LR.
Didn't realise you were a Theresa May fan.
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And May was warned and went ahead - lying racist and incompetent but supported by LR.
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/who-were-18-mps-who-bravely-voted.html
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And distraction and evasion. What a disgrace to have as PM!
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/04/did-theresa-may-just-lie-parliament
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And May was warned and went ahead - lying racist and incompetent but supported by LR.
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/who-were-18-mps-who-bravely-voted.html
Oh for heaven's sake NS, I am NOT supporting May if she is in the wrong on this issue, I didn't even vote for her party!
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Oh for heaven's sake NS, I am NOT supporting May if she is in the wrong on this issue, I didn't even vote for her party!
You think she should remain PM, that's supporting her. BYW any chance of explaining what you think your case was that you rested?
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You think she should remain PM, that's supporting her. BYW any chance of explaining what you think your case was that you rested?
Where did I say that? Stop making things up? >:(
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Where did I say that? Stop making things up? >:(
Surely when you said 'People are screaming for May to resign, but I can't think of anyone else in her party who is up to the job', you are implying that she should stay, rather than agreeing she should resign? And again any chance of you explaining the case you rested?
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Surely when you said 'People are screaming for May to resign, but I can't think of anyone else in her party who is up to the job', you are implying that she should stay, rather than agreeing she should resign? And again any chance of you explaining the case you rested?
You made an assumption, which was incorrect. I was wondering who would take over if May is forced out of office and wasn't fancying any of the alternatives, as I didn't think they would be any better. I don't rate May, I think David Cameron was a much better PM.
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You made an assumption, which was incorrect. I was wondering who would take over if May is forced out of office and wasn't fancying any of the alternatives, as I didn't think they would be any better. I don't rate May, I think David Cameron was a much better PM.
So you agree she should resign? And again any chance of you explaining the case that you rested?
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So you agree she should resign? And again any chance of you explaining the case that you rested?
The only important people in this debate are the Windrush generation, and whilst she is still in office May had better ensure the wrongs of the past are put right.
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The only important people in this debate are the Windrush generation, and whilst she is still in office May had better ensure the wrongs of the past are put right.
Any chance at all of an answer to either the question of whether she should resign or the 'case' that you 'rested'?
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Any chance at all of an answer to either the question of whether she should resign or the 'case' that you 'rested'?
I have already stated my case and have nothing more to say about May at present.
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I have already stated my case and have nothing more to say about May at present.
And I asked you to explain the case since I didn't understand what you were saying. What 'case' did you 'rest'?
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Page down to the immigration debate to see May's approach. A disgrace as a Home Secretary and as PM.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm131022/debtext/131022-0001.htm
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Tonights Tory Party election broadcast.
May has either reached new heights of control freakery or they cannot find any Tory Local Councillors who can sell local Toryism convincingly anymore
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People are screaming for May to resign, but I can't think of anyone else in her party who is up to the job.
Absolutely right, LR. It's so often a case of drag-'em-down in spite of the fact that there is no-one even in the distance who should be in her place right now.
I heard on Five Live last night a caller being given far too much air time to moan about Theresa May, saying that she just doesn't care, you can see it in her face, etc As if his opinion is of value and should be shared by all with no caller to defend - well, there might have been but by then I had turned off!!
Of course, it is obvious that politicians make mistakes, they are human beings, but to expect them to be paragons of virtue is utterly ridiculous.
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I don't get that LR.
Didn't realise you were a Theresa May fan.
It's not a case of being a'fan', it is being realistic and practical.
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It's not a case of being a'fan', it is being realistic and practical.
To have a lying incompetent racist who was warned about this being likely to happen when she introduced the legislation as PM?
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Absolutely right, LR. It's so often a case of drag-'em-down in spite of the fact that there is no-one even in the distance who should be in her place right now.
I heard on Five Live last night a caller being given far too much air time to moan about Theresa May, saying that she just doesn't care, you can see it in her face, etc As if his opinion is of value and should be shared by all with no caller to defend - well, there might have been but by then I had turned off!!
Of course, it is obvious that politicians make mistakes, they are human beings, but to expect them to be paragons of virtue is utterly ridiculous.
I'd have thought being exposed as both an incompetent and a liar would be grounds enough to get rid of her, since she won't have the good grace to resign.
Still we must look on the bright side: as the Brexit car crash continues, given reports this morning that her rhetoric regarding the Irish border has been exposed as useless, we might get the chance to get rid of the Tory government before too long
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I don't rate May, I think David Cameron was a much better PM.
David Cameron's sole qualification for leadership of the Conservative Party was that his name is not Kenneth Clarke.
Ken Clarke - now approaching 80 - is probably too old to take on the mantle of leadership. His progression to the leadership of the party was dashed by the likes of John Deadwood and Bill Crash who are unwilling to leave the parliamentary equivalent of the Paleolithic Age.
One wonders what the state of the nation would be if he had been given the opportunity to become Prime Minister?
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LR's main point was, I think, that she can't see anyone else in the Tory party who is competent to replace Theresa May.
Last night's Question Time was excellent with this very subject discussed from the start - for some time too. Interesting mix on the panel, Liz Truss MP, Emily Thornberry MP, Vince Cable MP, Nesrine Malik from the Guardian and Iain Dale, a broadcaster. Audience members seemed well informed. It was lively & a few things came out about Theresa May, pre-PM, that were certainly not widely known.
HH:- David Cameron's sole qualification for leadership of the Conservative Party was that his name is not Kenneth Clarke.
Yes.
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No, I get what LR's point is, I just don't think it is a very good idea one since it means we have a lying incompetent racist as PM who is taking no responsibility. Having a PM who is a disgrace is not practical as it undermines the role.
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Absolutely right, LR. It's so often a case of drag-'em-down in spite of the fact that there is no-one even in the distance who should be in her place right now.
I heard on Five Live last night a caller being given far too much air time to moan about Theresa May, saying that she just doesn't care, you can see it in her face, etc As if his opinion is of value and should be shared by all with no caller to defend - well, there might have been but by then I had turned off!!
Of course, it is obvious that politicians make mistakes, they are human beings, but to expect them to be paragons of virtue is utterly ridiculous.
She was warned at the time of the legislation that this was pissible. She chose to introduce it as part of her externalities anyway. She was told when it did happen and ignored it. She has lied since about that and about her responsibility. She is a lying incompetent racist and you think that is ok for being PM.
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Mark Steel on May
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-windrush-deport-british-residents-home-office-landing-cards-immigration-a8312586.html
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More farce involving lies and the PM's former advisor
http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-nick-timothy-home-office-go-home-vans-windrush-2018-4
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We get the politicians we deserve. The referendum on the electoral system was remarkable in that nearly 80% of the electorate did not vote. The result was the continuation of two-party politics.
Theresa May blatently puts the interest of the Conservative Party before that of the nation. Brexit means Brexit really meant "there are UKIP supporters out there who will come to us if we support their cause." The goal was not the best future for the country but Conservatives in power.
Windrush is a further manifestation of the same kind of thinking. The perceived wisdom was that immigrants were disliked by a significant number of voters who, if the right kind of hostility could be shown towards obvious people of non UK origin, then people would flock to the Conservative Party.
Both strategies were flawed. May is looking more and more perilous - almost daily.
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The choice in the electoral system was a false one with almost no additional representation.
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Have I got this straight? May thinks the Windrush scandal is merely a ruse to let illegal immigrants in?
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Have I got this straight? May thinks the Windrush scandal is merely a ruse to let illegal immigrants in?
What did she say that leads you to the conclusion?
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What did she say that leads you to the conclusion?
IMV She has accused Corbyn of supporting illegal immigration and going against the wishes of the GBP.
The hostile environment is a good thing and only affects illegal immigrants according to her at PMQ.
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IMV She has accused Corbyn of supporting illegal immigration and going against the wishes of the GBP.
The hostile environment is a good thing and only affects illegal immigrants according to her at PMQ.
I think you need to quote to make the argument.
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I think you need to quote to make the argument.
I am reporting what I have heard sounds like to me and am seeking conformation or otherwise. My sources are LBC and The Guardian.
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Further ''unintended consequence of the hostile environment''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/25/arthur-snell-high-commissioner-baby-denied-uk-passport-2011
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Further ''unintended consequence of the hostile environment''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/25/arthur-snell-high-commissioner-baby-denied-uk-passport-2011
May needs to resign. She is a lying racist.
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You say targets, Amber says no....You say targets. Amber says no
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You say targets, Amber says no....You say targets. Amber says no
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43902599
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It seems to me though that all Rudd and May have to do is say the magic words ''illegal immigrant'' and they become the darlings of the GBP.
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I think that it may be just a little more complex than that, Vlad.
May has impaled herself on the cross of Brexit. My judgement is that "Brexit means Brexit" had nothing to do with leaving the EU - that stuff could come later - but with making the Tory party a home-from-home for UKIPpers. (In other words providing a substantial semi-permanent electoral majority.)
Since UKIP's main gripe appeared to be all those bloody foreigners blocking up hospitals, swamping schools and claiming endless benefits, May has to be seen to be doing something about them. I suspect that she believed that since the average UKIPper's brain contains only three working neurones, anybody seen being thrown out of the country would gladden his or her heart.
She picked the wrong victims.
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I think that it may be just a little more complex than that, Vlad.
May has impaled herself on the cross of Brexit. My judgement is that "Brexit means Brexit" had nothing to do with leaving the EU - that stuff could come later - but with making the Tory party a home-from-home for UKIPpers. (In other words providing a substantial semi-permanent electoral majority.)
Since UKIP's main gripe appeared to be all those bloody foreigners blocking up hospitals, swamping schools and claiming endless benefits, May has to be seen to be doing something about them. I suspect that she believed that since the average UKIPper's brain contains only three working neurones, anybody seen being thrown out of the country would gladden his or her heart.
She picked the wrong victims.
I think that's the important point. This wasn't an accident. It was deliberate, and May was warned at the time and chose to ignore that. She should stop with the pose that it was accidental and resign.
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Andrew Green of Migration Watch and a woman from I don't know which group were on Radio 4 some time yesterday. Andrew Green pointed out that to award an amnesty was to sanction illegality; the other interviewee seemed to be rather clouded in her thinking.
All these issues seem to me to be waffling around without common sense and rationality.
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Andrew Green of Migration Watch and a woman from I don't know which group were on Radio 4 some time yesterday. Andrew Green pointed out that to award an amnesty was to sanction illegality; the other interviewee seemed to be rather clouded in her thinking.
All these issues seem to me to be waffling around without common sense and rationality.
It isn't an amnesty.
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...
All these issues seem to me to be waffling around without common sense and rationality.
That's because the government is trying to cloud the issue, blaming Labour and trying to conflate it with illegal immigration.
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It isn't an amnesty.
No, but that is the issue that had apparently been raised that they were talking about.
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No, but that is the issue that had apparently been raised that they were talking about.
Sorry, you need to expand this. What was the 'amnesty' and who had raised it?
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Boris Johnson, to conflate with illegal immigration.
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Boris Johnson, to conflate with illegal immigration.
He's a lying poltroon.
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I think that's the important point. This wasn't an accident. It was deliberate, and May was warned at the time and chose to ignore that. She should stop with the pose that it was accidental and resign.
She won’t though, will she?
I think the mood on the country is changing. I feel - and I know feelings aren’t a reliable guide to anything - that people are now realising the consequences of the push towards anti immigration policies. People have had enough of the fear and blame game.
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She won’t though, will she?
I think the mood on the country is changing. I feel - and I know feelings aren’t a reliable guide to anything - that people are now realising the consequences of the push towards anti immigration policies. People have had enough of the fear and blame game.
No, she won't. She has no integrity.
I hope you are right but I watch as Rees Mogg reinvents himself and am not sanguine. He voted for the legislation.
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Sorry, you need to expand this. What was the 'amnesty' and who had raised it?
Possible amnesty for all illegal immigrants who had spent more than 10 years here being good citizens. The woman said they had not been in trouble, had paid taxes, etc. AG pointed out that this was most unlikely to be known and unlikely, if I remember correctly, that they would want to declare themselves illegal immigrants. AG said that if they wanted to stay, perhaps they should apply for asylum. It was an interesting conversation but ended without resolution, not surprisingly.
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The idea that this can be blamed on mistakes by civil servants as opposed to a result of Tory policy is a shocking piece of lying. May should resign.
Can't help thinking that there seems to have been quite a number of civil servants only too willing to jump the gun - as they were in issuing fuck-off notices to foreign nationals who had been living here for 20 years or more, just as soon as the Brexit referendum result was through.
Presumably some of said jacks-in-office have got enough brains to start questioning ludicrous and ultimately sadistic policies before they start implementing them to the extent they have done. Or was it just a case of "I voz only abeyink orders".
That said, May ought to admit that "the buck stops with her".
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Can't help thinking that there seems to have been quite a number of civil servants only too willing to jump the gun - as they were in issuing fuck-off notices to foreign nationals who had been living here for 20 years or more, just as soon as the Brexit referendum result was through.
Presumably some of said jacks-in-office have got enough brains to start questioning ludicrous and ultimately sadistic policies before they start implementing them to the extent they have done. Or was it just a case of "I voz only abeyink orders".
That said, May ought to admit that "the buck stops with her".
Nope, this about legislation introduced by May. If you think blaming civil servants for implementing said legislation here is useful you merely buy into the distraction that Rudd and May are trying to use.
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Nope, this about legislation introduced by May. If you think blaming civil servants for implementing said legislation here is useful you merely buy into the distraction that Rudd and May are trying to use.
Yes, at the very least Rudd and May have shown blundering incompetence and lack of foresight if they did not realise the implications of their more stringent immigration policies. "Whoops! We honestly didn't think it would have such repercussions on the Windrush generation and their children"
And for such incompetence (rather than any inherent racism) they should both resign.
Nonetheless, I think the whole situation (and Brexit) has highlighted some very evil-smelling aspects in the higher ranks of the Civil Service too - I'm sure some of their Humphrey Applebeys would be more than a little pleased to tell anyone whom they considered not truly 'British' to fuck off to where they came from - and to remain utterly anonymous in the process.
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Yes, at the very least Rudd and May have shown blundering incompetence and lack of foresight if they did not realise the implications of their more stringent immigration policies. "Whoops! We honestly didn't think it would have such repercussions on the Windrush generation and their children"
And for such incompetence (rather than any inherent racism) they should both resign.
Nonetheless, I think the whole situation (and Brexit) has highlighted some very evil-smelling aspects to the higher ranks in the Civil Service too - I'm sure some of their Humphrey Applebeys would be more than a little pleased to tell anyone whom they considered not truly 'British' to fuck off to where they came from - and to remain utterly anonymous in the process.
May was told at the time of the legislation - so this was a deliberate decision. It is not just incompetence. It was a deliberate choice by May that she is now lying about.
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Peter Bone in Channel 4 news more worried about Rudd's comments on the single market than her not knowing what is going on at the Home Office. In part because he is a lying racist dick unwilling to take responsibility for deliberately voting for the Windrush scandal.
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I think that's the important point. This wasn't an accident. It was deliberate, and May was warned at the time and chose to ignore that. She should stop with the pose that it was accidental and resign.
If she had any integrity at all, she'd've resigned last year, after the disastrous (for the Tories) and unnecessary election, when she threw away the party's majority. She is completely shameless, and so won't resign.
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Being in office appears to be more important to Theresa May than being effective in office. Her primary objective appears to be to keep the Conservative Party together than to govern the United Kingdom. There are (gutter) press reports - reliability unknown - that David Davis is ready to resign over the direction that Brexit is taking.
However, the worst aspect of this failed and failing administration is the continued refusal of Amber Rudd to acknowledge her (at least) lack of vigilance and of May her responsibility for trying to expel a specific contingent of United Kingdon citizens.
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Rudd should do the decent thing and resign.
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HH you are being too kind
As someone might say:
"lack of vigilance" my arse
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HH you are being too kind
As someone might say:
"lack of vigilance" my arse
I did say "(at least) lack of vigilance".
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I'm wondering whether the concurrent to the establishment of ''The Hostile Environment'', The attack on legal aid, was part of the plan.
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Stewart Lee on eviscerating form:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/29/the-racists-won-so-are-they-happy-now-stewart-lee?CMP=fb_gu
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Things seem to be getting worse for Ms Rudd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43940476
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Things seem to be getting worse for Ms Rudd.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43940476
Apparently May happy to let the Home secretary
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/29/how-theresa-may-benefits-from-letting-amber-rudd-remain-in-firing-line
She's acting as a lightning Rudd...........get it?............Please yourselves.
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More Govt idiocy. May should go.
https://www.ft.com/content/2ae9b7d2-4d0c-11e8-8a8e-22951a2d8493
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Source LBC
Three line whip ordering Tory MP's to resist releasing information on Windrush.
Proof that politics is now merely an instrument to keep Theresa May in power.
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Source LBC
Three line whip ordering Tory MP's to resist releasing information on Windrush.
Proof that politics is now merely an instrument to keep Theresa May in power.
https://order-order.com/2018/05/02/tories-on-three-line-whip-to-vote-against-windrush-transparency/
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Which way will Javid (Mr Change the culture) vote.
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May promising what looks like an internal review of the lessons learned in Windrush.
I'm trying to work out why the GBP are so impressed by such Brass neck against authority and so wrong to thus think of May (elected supreme leader) as just a cheeky Brit ''getting by'' like them?
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I'm waiting for May to announce the return of the programme ''The Comedians'' to ITV.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/03/home-office-official-tells-man-facing-deportation-my-job-is-to-piss-you-off
I don't think there is any use putting this stuff in front of the GBP hoping they will think this is awful.