Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on April 20, 2018, 04:13:05 PM
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Personally who I touch is my business.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-43839655
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Agree.
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Yes but this is the thin edge of the wedge....
What else will she NOT do cos of a religion that considers itself vastly superior to ALL others ?!??!!?
Nick
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Doesn't really seem like the "thin edge of a wedge". What kind of things are you thinking of?
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Yes but this is the thin edge of the wedge....
What else will she NOT do cos of a religion that considers itself vastly superior to ALL others ?!??!!?
Nick
Slippery slope fallacy. Why should she have to do something that if she was germophobic she would be allowed not to do. She should have the same rights as everyone else.
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Predictive text changed homophobic in my previous post to homophobic which has triggered the thought that I wonder what would happen if someone at the French citizenship ceremony refused to shake hands with an official because they were gay.
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Probably ... would depend on whether the applicant were Muslim or not?
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Yes but this is the thin edge of the wedge....
What else will she NOT do cos of a religion that considers itself vastly superior to ALL others ?!??!!?
Nick
How predictable, there only has to be a whiff of 'Islam' or 'Muslim' in a thread title & you pounce with your excessive tabloid headline punctuation.
There are plenty of things people will not do because of their beliefs - all sorts of beliefs - & are not forced to do them. Orthodox Jews also do not shake hands with opposite sex, some wear a particular type of dress, do you object to any of that too?
I wouldn't dream of taking it for granted that someone wants to shake hands & can greet & receive greetings courteously without touching them.
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Fine but why is a MUSLIM woman being used in this issue ?!?!?
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Fine but why is a MUSLIM woman being used in this issue ?!?!?
Is it not because France, as a secular country, puts its secularity and secular values above religious practices - or above practices which appear to be influenced by religion?
The basic principles of the French republic - égalité, fraternité et liberté - are each challenged by her action. The official and the subsequent court felt that they witness behaviour which denies the basic values of French life.
(... And before Vlad succumbs to the Pavlovian reactions he suffers when "secular" is mentioned - most of the churches in France are the property of the French state.)
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If they are truly secular...the French should respect the woman's right not to shake hands. Why is shaking hands a fundamental requirement for French citizenship anyway? Touching someone is ones own choice. You can't force it.
I hate shaking hands too (like many Hindus)....preferring a polite folding of hands in 'namaste'. We don't know where someones hands have been!
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Fine but why is a MUSLIM woman being used in this issue ?!?!?
Is it not because France, as a secular country, puts its secularity and secular values above religious practices - or above practices which appear to be influenced by religion?
The basic principles of the French republic - égalité, fraternité et liberté - are each challenged by her action. The official and the subsequent court felt that they witness behaviour which denies the basic values of French life.
(... And before Vlad succumbs to the Pavlovian reactions he suffers when "secular" is mentioned - most of the churches in France are the property of the French state.)
No, it is just basic racism. Humiliate anyone that can be seen not to conform.
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I hate shaking hands too (like many Hindus)....preferring a polite folding of hands in 'namaste'. We don't know where someones hands have been!
hmm ... we do know.
Always wear gloves and carry a disinfectant spray :)
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No, Sriram, you have misunderstood this situation. It is not that she did not shake hands but the reason she gave for not shaking hands.
France is a country in which shaking hands is de rigeur. It is an important daily ritual.
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No, it is just basic racism. Humiliate anyone that can be seen not to conform.
The topic here is religion not racism.
I would agree that France is not as integrated as Britain (for the most part) but it is not a country of institutionalised racism.
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If I were French I would probably have some sympathy with the French authorities on this one, on taking an over all view, not just the one in front of me, the shaking of hands.
ippy
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So someone who wishes not to shake hands has to give a reason for not doing so? I think what Sririam suggested, "Namaste", joining hands with a nod, is perfectly acceptable - and rather charming - as is a big smile and just saying, "Hello". Muslims aren't the only people of religion who don't go around shaking hands, there's no reason for the woman's religion to be highlighted.
Singers and actors don't like to do it and always carry hand sanitiser with them.
I'm happy to shake hands but wait for the other person to make the first move if I don't know them.
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I am happy to shake hands, but objected to being hugged by people I don't know well.
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... Muslims aren't the only people of religion who don't go around shaking hands, there's no reason for the woman's religion to be highlighted.
Robbie
From the news item:
The woman, who has not been named, said her "religious beliefs" prevented her from shaking the hand of the male official in the citizenship ceremony.
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I know she said that, I read the article but that's no reason for the media to make such a big thing out of it. There are other religions with similar rules.
I'd have thought everyone nowadays knows that Muslims don't go around shaking hands, no big deal, no reason to make more out of a Muslim's etiquette than anyone else's.
Wouldn't happen here.
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It isn't "the media" making "a big thing" about it. It is the French state.
Her refusal to shake the official's hand was identified as a reluctance to accept the values of the country for which she was applying for citizenship and led to the refusal of citizenship,
This refusal was was reinforced by a decision in the French courts. Her behaviour indicated that by not shaking hands with a man she did not accept the principle of equality and that she lacked the freedom to behave as she wanted not as her religion demanded.
It wouldn't happen here.
Exactly. And this, perhaps, highlights a difference between living in a Common Law jursidiction and living in a Legal Code jurisdiction.
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There was a similar problem some years back about a woman who did not wear a bikini or something. The French seem to be particularly difficult people to live with! ::)
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No, Sriram.
Just a few kilometres along the coast where that incident occurred, a few days earlier a young man had driven a truck into a crowd of holiday-makers killing a large number of them. He did so in the name of Allah.
The maire of the beach resort considered the bhurka-on-the-beach just a step too far. It could have been a suicide bomber.
... And it wasn't some years back. It was 2017.
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What does that have to do with a woman not wanting to shake hands for a cultural or a religious reason? Are you saying she is likely to commit an act of terrorism? Or are we supposed to be suspicious of anyone of the same religion as terrorists?
Like here - suspicion of those - all - with Irish accents during the 'Troubles'.
Pah! Treat everyone as an individual and respect differences.
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Yeah Just like Muslims do in accordance with Quranic values ?!?!?!?
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Yeah Just like Muslims do in accordance with Quranic values ?!?!?!?
lazy generalisation and a tu quoque.
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You really DO know sod all about Islam & The Quran, don't you.????
Talk about lazy generalisations ?!?!?! HA HA HA
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You really DO know sod all about Islam & The Quran, don't you.????
Talk about lazy generalisations ?!?!?! HA HA HA
Yes, you continue to make them. And you continue with your to quoque.
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Now I KNOW you're taking the proverbial & will end this BS now.
Go, learn to read & write & THEN make useful comments !???!
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Now I KNOW you're taking the proverbial & will end this BS now.
Go, learn to read & write & THEN make useful comments !???!
No, I'm disagreeing with your approach. You aren't looking at people as people but as a lazy caricature which allows you to treat them as 'other'
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Now I KNOW you're taking the proverbial & will end this BS now.
Go, learn to read & write & THEN make useful comments !???!
You're a fine one to talk about reading & writing. I don't know how you have the nerve to say that
Yeah Just like Muslims do in accordance with Quranic values ?!?!?!?
A lot do actually but, as for those who don't - of whom you seem to know quite a lot - I don't intend to be like them.
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You're a fine one to talk about reading & writing. I don't know how you have the nerve to say that
A lot do actually but, as for those who don't - of whom you seem to know quite a lot - I don't intend to be like them.
Personally I have little doubt that Trippy does treat people as individuals and respect differences, quite probably also works closely with Muslim musicians.
However there is an effect where, on considering a generalised mass of people, a different kind of thinking pushes in - a them vs us thing - the basis for racism, sectarianism, and general national stereotypes and jingoism.
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Udayana Bhaiya.
A BIG Thanks, Dhanyavad, Shukria & Naandri for your very positive post.
I do have lots of experience with many musicians of ALL persuasions & we NEVER let religion get in the way of music performing.
Music takes one straight to God whereas religion tends to get IN the way of God.
Pretty sure many will agree with that ?!?!!?
I don't care what religion a person is as long as it doesn't prevent us getting along.
Nick