Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Walt Zingmatilder on May 03, 2018, 08:34:58 AM
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Will love of the Conservatives mean disappointment for Labour?
Will not gaining Barnet equal a national rout of Labour?
Can the BBC turn things round for the Conservatives?
Will the hostile environment rally the Tories?
Funny story from Havering where apparently Ukip councillorship campaigned for independence from London calling it Hexit.
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Fingers crossed for a Tory wipe-out.
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Fingers crossed for a Tory wipe-out.
The Tory spin generators are beginning to gyrate even faster. No doubt a Scottish engineer is shouting through a tube that 'the engines canna take it'.
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Tory disenfranchisement scheme working in areas where ID is required.
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Tory disenfranchisement scheme working in areas where ID is required.
Some wag described their voter-ID scheme as "a solution in search of a problem".
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Some wag described their voter-ID scheme as "a solution in search of a problem".
People should go in two's. There may , I would have thought be the chance of a claim against individuals attempting to stop your Human rights.
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Hostile environment popular and swinging it for the tories.
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Labour hasn't done as well as they had hoped. I reckon they might do better without Corbyn as leader. At least the ghastly UKIP has been almost wiped out, which is good.
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Labour hasn't done as well as they had hoped. I reckon they might do better without Corbyn as leader. At least the ghastly UKIP has been almost wiped out, which is good.
UKIP will be quite pleased, surely? First Brexit, and now having won overall control of the Tory party. ;)
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UKIP will be quite pleased, surely? First Brexit, and now having won overall control of the Tory party. ;)
HA! HA! ::)
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Labour hasn't done as well as they had hoped. I reckon they might do better without Corbyn as leader. At least the ghastly UKIP has been almost wiped out, which is good.
I don't see any evidence that labour would do better without Corbyn. After 2015 the love in England was having with the right handed the Tories a majority. May lost that in what is still the greatest act of political incompetence and in the face of excellent Local election results.
The message was the electorate took exception to Mays expectation that the country would line up for a shafting.
Corbyn got the youth vote out, the local elections show deadlock between Tories and labour even with all Tories now back in the fold. Also I wonder if youth which has put Corbyn where he is today would I imagine youth voting in as great numbers in local elections, no.
On the other hand Jez is getting on, has no natural successor and the Blairites have not taken part in the Labour Party because they are frightened to be seen in opposition, any opposition Ummuna being the prime example.
All this might convince T May to risk asking the electorate to bend over in 2022.
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Surely now nobody can doubt the antilabour, protory character of BBC political coverage.
Like others I'm sure, I made a list of every antilabour tactic/trope their coverage could take and they didn't disappoint.
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Disappointing.
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It’s all a bit weird, isn’t it? I guess in uncertain times people stick with what they know. Like a dog that returns to the master that beats him.
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Tory's think Corbyn has peaked.
Does that mean they think May can get her landslide at the next election?
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It’s all a bit weird, isn’t it? I guess in uncertain times people stick with what they know. Like a dog that returns to the master that beats him.
Or returns to its vomit.
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Or some people see it as the lesser of two weevils? And some think the Tory party best represent them for a number of different reasons. Or as they might feel in Birmingham for which we are still waiting, that the Labour party screwed up over bons. Add in the FPTP system and the collapse of UKIP and we have what John Pienaar described as two sumo wrestlers pushing against one and other. It's not that much different from the GE.
The next election should it be in 2022 as scheduled isn't going to be based on where we are now. It's all a bit phony war at moment
I'd agree with Vlad, I don't think a change of leader would do much for the Labour Party not least because in order to get that change it would be more likely to tear itself apart.
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Also, there isn't an obvious non-Corbyn candidate, Starmer I suppose, very exciting.
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Surely now nobody can doubt the antilabour, protory character of BBC political coverage.
Like others I'm sure, I made a list of every antilabour tactic/trope their coverage could take and they didn't disappoint.
I think the BBC gives unbiased reporting.
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Also, there isn't an obvious non-Corbyn candidate, Starmer I suppose, very exciting.
I would suspect a non exciting leader who is not an incompetent lying racist might do quite well. The problem is there is no way that any one other than Corbyn can win in the Labour Party at the moment, and I don't see him handing over the reins any time soon. I think there's a substantial number of voters on both sides who see it as a vote against the other party. I suppose the Lib Dems can feel a little pleased with these results but their message is hardly surging.
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I think the BBC gives unbiased reporting.
Too much focus on the opposition. To the point that any failure marked a major resurgence in Conservatism and potential labour defeat at the General Election. Complete ignoring of the 2017 GE or partying as if it was April 2017. Generally giving the impression that any success Corbyn has had is a blip on the road to some kind of Tory Landslide.
If we put it another way the impression that only labour can have reached high water mark, a favourite of Andrew Niels and now that that its over the implication is natural and perpetual sunny Tory uplands...completely ignoring that the Local elections of 2014 represented a Tory High water mark.
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Problems for Tories
Now effectively UKIP
Did the young vote in the local elections?
Delivering a brexit that works for the bulk of brexiteers.
Problems for Labour
Not many potential heirs of Blair who want to be arsed to be seen in opposition.
Not many heirs of Corbyn who look anything more than the opposition.
Corbyns beard. Off or more body one or the other.
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Problems for Tories
Now effectively UKIP
Did the young vote in the local elections?
Problems for Labour
Not many potential heirs of Blair who want to be arsed to be seen in opposition.
Not many heirs of Corbyn who look anything more than the opposition.
I think it's too simplistic to say the Tories are now UKIP. I think they have got some votes back that they lost to UKIP but Labour haven't got those votes back they lost to UKIP.
I think it's unclear quite how big the youth vote surge was at the last GE and easy to overestimate it. It's also not guaranteed to be the same next GE.
I think the Tories biggest problem by far is Brexit, and the chance of any truce that is there at the moment dissolving when a decision has to be made.
Labour's biggest problem is it's not a functioning party on most issues.
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I think it's too simplistic to say the Tories are now UKIP. I think they have got some votes back that they lost to UKIP but Labour haven't got those votes back they lost to UKIP.
I think it's unclear quite how big the youth vote surge was at the last GE and easy to overestimate it. It's also not guaranteed to be the same next GE.
I think the Tories biggest problem by far is Brexit, and the chance of any truce that is there at the moment dissolving when a decision has to be made.
Labour's biggest problem is it's not a functioning party on most issues.
The latter is true of the conservatives isn't it? Why do you think it is less significant for the Tories?
Too determine whether it is to simplistic to say tories is now UKIP, you said something similar we have to look at where there council seats have gone to.
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The latter is true of the conservatives isn't it? Why do you think it is less significant for the Tories?
Too determine whether it is to simplistic to say tories is now UKIP, you said something similar we have to look at where there council seats have gone to.
I think the Tory party functions on most things - But not Brexit which is the crucial thing they have to function on. I didn't mention this being less significance, indeed I think it's of greater significance since if it blows up, I can't see how they stay in govt and think there would be a split.
The point about the Tories being UKIP being too simplistic is that it's merely support that they used to have and that wasn't a problem for them. That they appear to have gained some voters that went from Labour to UKIP, isn't an issue either. Yu yourself have been noting that the hostile environment isn't a problem.
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I think the Tory party functions on most things - But not Brexit which is the crucial thing they have to function on. I didn't mention this being less significance, indeed I think it's of greater significance since if it blows up, I can't see how they stay in govt and think there would be a split.
The point about the Tories being UKIP being too simplistic is that it's merely support that they used to have and that wasn't a problem for them. That they appear to have gained some voters that went from Labour to UKIP, isn't an issue either. Yu yourself have been noting that the hostile environment isn't a problem.
yes the tories assimilated UKIP. Will that now attract Blairites who cannot find comfort with Corbyn, not sure.
Will a Blairite attract Conservatives? Had chance, should have worked, Muffed it.
Who is the only politician to have attract new voters and not recycled old UKippers? Corbyn.
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Yes the tories assimilated UKIP. Will that now attract Blairites who cannot find comfort with Corbyn, not sure.
Will a Blairite attract Conservatives? Had chance, should have worked, Muffed it. Took Umbridge, disappeared since 2015
Who is the only politician to have attract new voters and not recycled old UKippers? Corbyn.
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yes the tories assimilated UKIP. Will that now attract Blairites who cannot find comfort with Corbyn, not sure.
Will a Blairite attract Conservatives? Had chance, should have worked, Muffed it.
Who is the only politician to have attract new voters and not recycled old UKippers? Corbyn.
Again you go down this simplistic route of labelling people, I don't think there will be many who supported Blair rushing to the Tories, I don't see that as what they are aiming for here. But that's not being stopped by UKIP, it's stopped by Brexit which puts a ceiling on the Tory vote but one with sufficient leeway to allow the to be elected. Both parties at the last election had a rise in their votes, and while Corbyn did better amongst newer voters he did worse amongst older previously Labour voters. As already covered, this result doesn't really move us on, and it is future events if the election is in 2022 that will determine the result.
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UKIP is like the 'Black Death' says own official in a positive manner!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44002060
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Again you go down this simplistic route of labelling people, I don't think there will be many who supported Blair rushing to the Tories, I don't see that as what they are aiming for here. But that's not being stopped by UKIP, it's stopped by Brexit which puts a ceiling on the Tory vote but one with sufficient leeway to allow the to be elected. Both parties at the last election had a rise in their votes, and while Corbyn did better amongst newer voters he did worse amongst older previously Labour voters. As already covered, this result doesn't really move us on, and it is future events if the election is in 2022 that will determine the result.
I'm afraid people label themselves in elections and commit to that by putting a big X in the box next to the label.
In terms of Older voter vs Young voter...is that a straight swap?
Another take on this election is that it looks like status quo as if the message from the whole electorate is this is what we told you the last time and in terms of the Referendum the time before that.
So if that is so is it a blip or labour high water and the Conservatives are going to defy political gravity and go on to a landslide or what? Because that largely seems to be the narrative but is that realistic.
And what does Plymouth mean since that is the only real reverse of the election ? Does it mean that the Tories had the west country but are beginning to lose it?
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People who want a Blairite, slick, young, thrusting, centrist type to form the next labour government should remind themselves that people who fitted the profile did not want to be seen in opposition. Which you rather have to be and do before you get to be in government.
I don't think these people are necessarily working for the tories or are vehemently anti Corbyn but are concerned with image and a preoccupation with not looking like a loser. Cameron had that preoccupation in spades hence his swift exit, after he had announced he was throwing the towel in anyway.
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I'm afraid people label themselves in elections and commit to that by putting a big X in the box next to the label.
In terms of Older voter vs Young voter...is that a straight swap?
Another take on this election is that it looks like status quo as if the message from the whole electorate is this is what we told you the last time and in terms of the Referendum the time before that.
So if that is so is it a blip or labour high water and the Conservatives are going to defy political gravity and go on to a landslide or what? Because that largely seems to be the narrative but is that realistic.
And what does Plymouth mean since that is the only real reverse of the election ? Does it mean that the Tories had the west country but are beginning to lose it?
So people label themselves by how they vote but they also might in your view be choosing an overall vote that the country somehow chooses by some form of mind reading?
Again I think that trying to read something into a partial set of elections when there has been minimal movements in the opinion polls, and where the election is scheduled 4 YEARS away, with huge policy decisions to are to be made rather than talked about is pointless
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So people label themselves by how they vote but they also might in your view be choosing an overall vote that the country somehow chooses by some form of mind reading?
Again I think that trying to read something into a partial set of elections when there has been minimal movements in the opinion polls, and where the election is scheduled 4 YEARS away, with huge policy decisions to are to be made rather than talked about is pointless
That sounds in the realms of ''wait, something magical is going to happen'' though.
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That sounds in the realms of ''wait, something magical is going to happen'' though.
No, it's saying nothing about 'magical', or even saying wait. It's just noting some facts that means that a prediction now would be a mug's game. We've already discussed some of the major issues that are about to hit, one of these, Brexit, being in iceberg terms big enough to sink either f the SSS Tory or S.S. Labour, and quite possibly both.
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I think the BBC gives unbiased reporting.
Far, or even further than that from the truth L R, the BBC behaves in a similar way towards us, just as the paddles do at the bottom of a pin ball table, every time it communicates with us. Now who's in control of those paddles?
Regards ippy
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No, it's saying nothing about 'magical', or even saying wait. It's just noting some facts that means that a prediction now would be a mug's game. We've already discussed some of the major issues that are about to hit, one of these, Brexit, being in iceberg terms big enough to sink either f the SSS Tory or S.S. Labour, and quite possibly both.
That sounds like the kind of prediction you are counselling against.
I think rather than making a prediction of the result.....I haven't, I'm merely trying to understand the irrational love affair with the Conservatives who are a proven danger to welfare and trying to work out when and if it is going to end.....rather like having a rash on the dong and wondering how and when I can get rid of it.
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That sounds like the kind of prediction you are counselling against.
I think rather than making a prediction of the result.....I haven't, I'm merely trying to understand the irrational love affair with the Conservatives who are a proven danger to welfare and trying to work out when and if it is going to end.....rather like having a rash on the dong and wondering how and when I can get rid of it.
It's not a prediction of the 2022 election which is what I had mentioned as being something to avoid predicting. Up till now I thought we were looking at a more discursive approach hence your ongoing points about what are the problems for the parties. You seem to be asking here for how you change people's minds - best way is join a party you believe enough in and get out and campaign. I don't see much point in just wondering when something is going to end other than the intellectual interest.
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Far, or even further than that from the truth L R, the BBC behaves in a similar way towards us, just as the paddles do at the bottom of a pin ball table, every time it communicates with us. Now who's in control of those paddles?
Regards ippy
I take it you are not of the opinion that Vlad is that it's all Tory propaganda? If you do disagree with him, then that would be 3 different takes expressed on this in this thread about this. Just wondering if you, LR, or Vlad want to put up any facts to back up your opinions?
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I take it you are not of the opinion that Vlad is that it's all Tory propaganda? If you do disagree with him, then that would be 3 different takes expressed on this in this thread about this. Just wondering if you, LR, or Vlad want to put up any facts to back up your opinions?
Firstly recruitment of those fronting programmes particularly of a news nature vis education, class.
Secondly, if you compile a list of ways in which news staff say on an election special or any news programme could be bias and it is fulfilled.
Thirdly, I am pretty sure BBC coverage has on occasions shown to be bias to the right wing.
Fourthly comparison with the journalism of other news organisation. I would say that sky news is more balanced than the BBC.Brexit coverage showed that BBC coverage when not bias is anodyne.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/17/bbc-leftwing-bias-non-existent-myth
A study by Cardiff University academics, funded by the BBC Trust, was published in August 2013, examining the BBC's coverage of a broad range of issues. One of the findings was the dominance of party political sources. In coverage of immigration, the EU and religion, these accounted for 49.4% of all source appearances in 2007 and 54.8% in 2012. The data also showed that the Conservative Party received significantly more airtime than the Labour Party. In 2012 Conservative leader David Cameron outnumbered Labour leader Ed Miliband in appearances by a factor of nearly four to one (53 to 15), while Conservative cabinet members and ministers outnumbered their Labour counterparts by more than four to one (67 to 15).[16]
Former Director General of the BBC, Greg Dyke, has criticised the BBC as part of a "Westminster conspiracy" to maintain the British political system.[17]
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Firstly recruitment of those fronting programmes particularly of a news nature vis education, class.
Secondly, if you compile a list of ways in which news staff say on an election special or any news programme could be bias and it is fulfilled.
Thirdly, I am pretty sure BBC coverage has on occasions shown to be bias to the right wing.
Fourthly comparison with the journalism of other news organisation. I would say that sky news is more balanced than the BBC.Brexit coverage showed that BBC coverage when not bias is anodyne.
That's a set of measures, which you haven't made any justification of, and then a couple of further assertions. No facts.
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That's a set of measures, which you haven't made any justification of, and then a couple of further assertions. No facts.
A study by Cardiff University academics, funded by the BBC Trust, was published in August 2013, examining the BBC's coverage of a broad range of issues. One of the findings was the dominance of party political sources. In coverage of immigration, the EU and religion, these accounted for 49.4% of all source appearances in 2007 and 54.8% in 2012. The data also showed that the Conservative Party received significantly more airtime than the Labour Party. In 2012 Conservative leader David Cameron outnumbered Labour leader Ed Miliband in appearances by a factor of nearly four to one (53 to 15), while Conservative cabinet members and ministers outnumbered their Labour counterparts by more than four to one (67 to 15).[16]
Former Director General of the BBC, Greg Dyke, has criticised the BBC as part of a "Westminster conspiracy" to maintain the British political system.[17]
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http://news-watch.co.uk/bbc-concedes-political-bias-but-only-against-corbynistas/
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Analysis by Sky. results in terms of a General election..........................................................................Hung parliament.
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Lib dems......... on the road back to useful idiocy?
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A study by Cardiff University academics, funded by the BBC Trust, was published in August 2013, examining the BBC's coverage of a broad range of issues. One of the findings was the dominance of party political sources. In coverage of immigration, the EU and religion, these accounted for 49.4% of all source appearances in 2007 and 54.8% in 2012. The data also showed that the Conservative Party received significantly more airtime than the Labour Party. In 2012 Conservative leader David Cameron outnumbered Labour leader Ed Miliband in appearances by a factor of nearly four to one (53 to 15), while Conservative cabinet members and ministers outnumbered their Labour counterparts by more than four to one (67 to 15).[16]
Former Director General of the BBC, Greg Dyke, has criticised the BBC as part of a "Westminster conspiracy" to maintain the British political system.[17]
Brilliant, I like this, at least someone going for analysis! Any refutation those that disagree with the BBC being a hive of rightwingedness?
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Iain Dale on LBC desperate to make this look like a complete rout of Labour. Like that Holiday advert, Corbyn could rightfully claim that he shouldn't be here since according to the script he should have resigned after the referendum and should have been routed in 2017.
Of course Blairites such as KInnock are coming out of the woodwork demonstrating remorse and apology for being Labour. That really worked in 2015.
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Iain Dale on LBC desperate to make this look like a complete rout of Labour. Like that Holiday advert, Corbyn could rightfully claim that he shouldn't be here since according to the script he should have resigned after the referendum and should have been routed in 2017.
Of course Blairites such as KInnock are coming out of the woodwork demonstrating remorse and apology for being Labour. That really worked in 2015.
Yep, it's not a rout of Corbyn. Part of the problem though was the indulgence about 'winning' London. Lots of this doesn't matter because already discussed, nothing much has changed and that includes the UKIP vote as compared to the GE.
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I see the BBC have just projected that for a GE it would mean Labour 35% Tories 35%, Lib Dems 16% with no statement of it not being a poll of the entirety. Obvious evidence that they are Lib Dem biased. Or maybe just incompetent stupid.
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I see the BBC have just projected that for a GE it would mean Labour 35% Tories 35%, Lib Dems 16% with no statement of it not being a poll of the entirety. Obvious evidence that they are Lib Dem biased. Or maybe just incompetent stupid.
A worry for the National Tories is that many tory councils have complained about central Government Tory funding and there is the chance that people have genuinely appreciated their efforts on local voters behalf. That would mean that the Tories could have a successful local election followed by a disasterous general election.
That of course would have to be put to the test.
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Where have the Blairites been these past 3 years?
Miliband who left not to queer his brothers pitch is still absent, Chukka has popped up on Iaiaian Dale, Steven Kinnock ditto with the old Milibandian apologising for being Labour schtick, Burnham did a Boris, ditto the guy in London, Mandelson, looking for the elixir of eternal life, Jarvis 3 years ago opted out to spend more time with his family only to find time for two jobs three years later.... Have these guys even got a plan or a political machinery? How are they going to rescue the Labour party?
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Where have the Blairites been these past 3 years?
Miliband who left not to queer his brothers pitch is still absent, Chukka has popped up on Iaiaian Dale, Steven Kinnock ditto with the old Milibandian apologising for being Labour schtick, Burnham did a Boris, ditto the guy in London, Mandelson, looking for the elixir of eternal life, Jarvis 3 years ago opted out to spend more time with his family only to find time for two jobs three years later.... Have these guys even got a plan or a political machinery? How are they going to rescue the Labour party?
Yvette Cooper? Or are you just sexist?
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I see the BBC have just projected that for a GE it would mean Labour 35% Tories 35%, Lib Dems 16% with no statement of it not being a poll of the entirety. Obvious evidence that they are Lib Dem biased. Or maybe just incompetent stupid.
I find that something off an indictment. It's hard to think howe the current government could have been more incompetent and less empathetic towards the less fortunate members of our society. Labour should be annihilating them at the moment.
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Yvette Cooper? Or are you just sexist?
No..... she's about the only possibility. Those on my lists are fly by nights who need to put up etc.
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Mmm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-44005594
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Mmm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-44005594
I get the feeling the tories are just going to be exchanging euroskeptic and pro Europe factions for pro immigration and antiimmigration ones.
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Another idiot advocating a return to Labour singing from the Tory hymnsheet?
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/alastair-campbell-labour-is-a-long-way-from-p/
Well Alistair, perpetual and public apologies for being Labour really worked in 2015.
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Different take than the MSM
https://skwawkbox.org/2018/05/05/the-local-election-overview-you-wont-get-from-the-bbc/
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Another idiot advocating a return to Labour singing from the Tory hymnsheet?
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/alastair-campbell-labour-is-a-long-way-from-p/
Well Alistair, perpetual and public apologies for being Labour really worked in 2015.
Unfortunately (perhaps) Vlad, the only constant winners in First Past The Post electoral systems are those who hold the middle ground. When Labour did allow its left wing to be dominant, under Michael Foot and the Neil Kinnock it was unelectable and spent 18 years in Opposition.
Theresa May is trying to be clever. She identifies the unwashed masses who support Brexit as "middle ground" and is pitching her messages towards them - which is why she has become unstuck over Windrush. But until Labour ditches Corbyn or at least starts to disconnect itself from WRP manque image it has managed to acquire it will be difficult for it to sustain a Parliamentary majority.
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Unfortunately (perhaps) Vlad, the only constant winners in First Past The Post electoral systems are those who hold the middle ground. When Labour did allow its left wing to be dominant, under Michael Foot and the Neil Kinnock it was unelectable and spent 18 years in Opposition.
Theresa May is trying to be clever. She identifies the unwashed masses who support Brexit as "middle ground" and is pitching her messages towards them - which is why she has become unstuck over Windrush. But until Labour ditches Corbyn or at least starts to disconnect itself from WRP manque image it has managed to acquire it will be difficult for it to sustain a Parliamentary majority.
The Tories were unelectable for 13 years and Labour saw off three supposed middle ground Conservative leaders and then the magic wore off. There was nothing intrinsically not middle ground about Milliband indeed his sole keynote policy and attitude to privatised utilities eventually was taken on board by the tories. But I think victory which the polls predicted for Miliband was illusiory because the ukip numbers were high and there was evidence that UKIP potential parliamentary seats would just go Tory.
And that should have been it for Labour who should have according to the script; meekly accept the Tory narrative that the crisis of 2008 was Labours fault. Each Labour leader who was apologetic about Labour's record could be the successfully and succesively be knocked down.
Corbyn has reversed that and instead entering a period of the middle class vote unable to be mined further. Corbyn found a New constituency in the youth vote.
The new tory approach is to try make people forget about these Corbyn successes, and remember the Toby Young doctrine that Corbyn makes Labour unelectable and those touted as leaders and true Labour are back from a three to two year sabbatical suggesting that public apology and public reflection on their own supposed uselessness is the way back to Government.
Matthew D'Ancona on the new Tory narrative on Corbyn
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/06/tories-peak-corbyn-local-election-results
Matthew Norman on the tedious bubbling up like a fart in the bath of the old New Labour(yes them) narrative on Corbyn.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-local-elections-david-blunkett-labour-a8338961.html
Name one person who can be Corbyn's replacement who has a following in either the party or the Country.
Any problems Labour have lie with an electorate who by a very small majority did a quite stupid and thoughtless thing at the behest of some unscrupulous people. The last thing Labour should be thinking is offering up Corbyn as a pointless superstitious shamanic sacrifice taking on everybodies political sins rather than Offering him as a sensible alternative to the nest of fools which is TORKIP.
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Different take than the MSM
https://skwawkbox.org/2018/05/05/the-local-election-overview-you-wont-get-from-the-bbc/
Fine reminder of how BBC news at least has become an arm of the establishment and probably the Conservative party under Dame Laura Keunsberg.
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Fine reminder of how BBC news at least has become an arm of the establishment and probably the Conservative party under Dame Laura Keunsberg.
I would say that what happened is the bare minimum of what Labour should have done given the Tories recent record.
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I would say that what happened is the bee minimum of what Labour should have done given the Tories recent record.
It is no Blair or Thatcher juggernaut but those days are over. So we are left with a couple of questions.
Where is the next inexorable Blairite Juggernaut going to come from?
Where is a May landslide going to come from?
What seems more likely is a Corbyn Scrape. Why should a minority but working minority be treated as a bigger failure than a coalition of the time that raised student fees, destroyed any prospect of electoral change and gave rise to Brexit?
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It is no Blair or Thatcher juggernaut but those days are over. So we are left with a couple of questions.
One of those questions is why are those days over. Corbyn has massive grass roots support from the left and May just lurches from disaster to disaster and yet, in the country as a whole, there is no Corbyn juggernaut.
Why should a minority but working minority be treated as a bigger failure than a coalition of the time that raised student fees, destroyed any prospect of electoral change and gave rise to Brexit?
Many people didn't regard the coalition as a failure.
A minority Labour government might not be a failure - we cannily judge by its results, but it's certainly a political failure for the Labour leadership given the current political climate in which Labour's chief opponents are doing their level best to make themselves unelectable.
There's no such thing as a working minority, by the way.
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There's no such thing as a working minority, by the way.
I think that one might argue that the 2015 election may have been due to the electorate as a mass phenomenon aiming clumsily for another coalition but then again was probably that for some reason the electorate hated labour.
By a working minority I mean a hung parliament with labour holding more seats and the scots nats and lib Dems not wanting to support the tories in any way shape or form.
As to the question of why there is no blairite juggernaut is that the Blairites are on an extended self imposed sabbatical from Opposition politics.
Whether this is because of the narcissism in the genome of blairism I know not. but my bet is for the beautiful, plausible, inevitably fantastic looking blairite or Milibandite, Chukka, Liz Kendall, Andy Burnham, being in shitty hand to hand opposition is not felt to be a good place.
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I think that one might argue that the 2015 election may have been due to the electorate as a mass phenomenon aiming clumsily for another coalition.
Insofar as the electorate has a collective will, we need to take the opposite view. If the electorate had been voting for another coalition, the Lib Dem vote would not have collapsed.
As to the question of why there is no blairite juggernaut is that the Blairites are on an extended self imposed sabbatical from Opposition politics.
That's not an important question. The important question is why is there no Corbynite juggernaut. There really ought to be.
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Insofar as the electorate has a collective will, we need to take the opposite view. If the electorate had been voting for another coalition, the Lib Dem vote would not have collapsed.
That's not an important question. The important question is why is there no Corbynite juggernaut. There really ought to be.
That there are the fantastic achievements of getting youth to enfranchise itself, Of not only saving the party's existence from the Blairites who, if successful would have ensured its destruction, breaking the power of the right wing media and then the overturn of the Tory majority is all that can be reasonably expected i'm afraid.
To imagine a Labour juggernaut at the moment is completely unreasonable and an example of false friend.
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That there are the fantastic achievements of getting youth to enfranchise itself,
Doesn't seem to be helping them very much.
Of not only saving the party's existence from the Blairites who, if successful would have ensured its destruction,
Would it? The Blairites, by the way, lost their grip on the Labour party in 2010 five years before Corbyn got elected.
breaking the power of the right wing media and then the overturn of the Tory majority is all that can be reasonably expected i'm afraid.
So not a juggernaut then.
If the right wing media is losing power, it has got nothing to do with Corbyn and everything to do with the Internet and social media.
And given the opinion polls at the start of the 2017 general election, yes all Labour could have expected was to overturn the Tory majority, but the Tory party nearly imploded after the referendum. They should never have been that far ahead in the first place.
To imagine a Labour juggernaut at the moment is completely unreasonable and an example of false friend.
Look at the state of the Tories. It's a shambles. The only explanation for why they aren't being annihilated in every poll and election is that Labour is also useless.
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Doesn't seem to be helping them very much.
Would it? The Blairites, by the way, lost their grip on the Labour party in 2010 five years before Corbyn got elected.
So not a juggernaut then.
If the right wing media is losing power, it has got nothing to do with Corbyn and everything to do with the Internet and social media.
And given the opinion polls at the start of the 2017 general election, yes all Labour could have expected was to overturn the Tory majority, but the Tory party nearly imploded after the referendum. They should never have been that far ahead in the first place.
Look at the state of the Tories. It's a shambles. The only explanation for why they aren't being annihilated in every poll and election is that Labour is also useless.
I fail to see how given the extrapolation of the local election results that Labour would now be in government that that is significant where the object is the removal of the tories.
But if you wish to discount the local elections then in that case Corbyn most recently has turned an expected Landslide for the tories and the destruction of labour into a hung parliament.
I should imagine if that were the case lots of politicians wish they could be as useless as labour.
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I fail to see how given the extrapolation of the local election results that Labour would now be in government that that is significant where the object is the removal of the tories.
Labour in government is the minimum that you might have expected given that the Tories are in a huge mess.
But if you wish to discount the local elections then in that case Corbyn most recently has turned an expected Landslide for the tories and the destruction of labour into a hung parliament.
Actually, I think it was Theresa May that overturned that landslide. It's no good saying "Labour didn't lose by as much as was expected" when they went into the campaign behind. Why were they behind a Tory party that came close to imploding? Because Corbyn is shit.
I should imagine if that were the case lots of politicians wish they could be as useless as labour.
I bet Corbyn wishes hew was less useless than he is. He'd be prime minister now if he was.
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Labour in government is the minimum that you might have expected given that the Tories are in a huge mess.Actually, I think it was Theresa May that overturned that landslide. It's no good saying "Labour didn't lose by as much as was expected" when they went into the campaign behind. Why were they behind a Tory party that came close to imploding? Because Corbyn is shit.
I bet Corbyn wishes hew was less useless than he is. He'd be prime minister now if he was.
Considering a party which should have been unelectable in 2017/2018 having actually imploded thanks to people who thought Corbyn was shit had managed to force a hung parliament in 2017 and would have been in government according to extrapolated results then what Corbyn has achieved is exceptional. Like the bumble bee he should fly but he does.
Being in government after political gymnastics has been as good as it gets since 2010.
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Considering a party which should have been unelectable in 2017/2018 having actually imploded thanks to people who thought Corbyn was shit had managed to force a hung parliament in 2017
You are saying that a party (Labour) which some considered unelectable turned out to be unelectable.
and would have been in government according to extrapolated results then what Corbyn has achieved is exceptional. Like the bumble bee he should fly but he does.
I agree that what he has achieved is exceptional. I look at the Tory record since 2015 and I can't remember a more abject display of self inflicted ineptitude and yet, after a general election in 2017, Labour are still on the opposition benches and after the council elections in 2018, they might just shade it in a general election. They are truly exceptional, much like Brechin City FC this year.
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You are saying that a party (Labour) which some considered unelectable turned out to be unelectable.
I agree that what he has achieved is exceptional. I look at the Tory record since 2015 and I can't remember a more abject display of self inflicted ineptitude and yet, after a general election in 2017, Labour are still on the opposition benches and after the council elections in 2018, they might just shade it in a general election. They are truly exceptional, much like Brechin City FC this year.
You are saying that a party (Labour) which some considered unelectable turned out to be unelectable.
I agree that what he has achieved is exceptional. I look at the Tory record since 2015 and I can't remember a more abject display of self inflicted ineptitude and yet, after a general election in 2017, Labour are still on the opposition benches and after the council elections in 2018, they might just shade it in a general election. They are truly exceptional, much like Brechin City FC this year.
Unelectable refers I would have thought to a party which has no hope of being elected, in the UK that means forming a government.
You can therefore have two parties who are electable and one becomes unelected. both
If they are now unelectable they would have no or little chance in any called election. There is no evidence that labour is unelectable.
Politically the term is used as a comment on a parties opinion polling or as a device to deter voters from voting for them by appealing to the voters desire to back and identify a supposed winner instead as in TOBY YOUNG'S use of it in 2015.
After the local elections 2017 and the decision to call an election to get a landslide and increase the majority was based on unelectability. It was a disasterous interpretation and application of the term unelectable.
For those still interested in a non tory future to refer to yourself as unelectable is a sign of lack of political self esteem such as lost the MIlibandite labour the election of 2015 who were apparently ELECTABLE right up to the point when they became unelected.
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/15/warning-tories-britain-true-blue-suburbs-turned-liberal
The love affair with Conservatism is still strong though.