Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve H on June 04, 2018, 11:39:48 AM
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...for pointing out on Facebook that practising women dress distinctively, with a veil and their arms and legs covered, and are not likely to be mistaken for a nun, though they also wear veils and cover their legs and arms, or for a follower of any other religion? Some other poster thought so! It was in relation to a video, that certainly was anti-Islamic, showing London in the 60s and London today, with many Asian people in the latter, the women wearing traditional Muslim clobber.
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From your synopsis I can't see how.
Was it a particularly heated exchange?
Sometimes if it is heated it makes people reach for handy insults/put downs.
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Two posters said I was generalising. Yes, I was, but it isn't always wrong. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
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I’m not really sure what your point was, Steve. Can you elaborate?
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Two posters said I was generalising. Yes, I was, but it isn't always wrong. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Many (probably most) practicing muslim women don't wear clothing that is in any way distinctively 'muslim' and will wear clothes that are the same as those worn by any other women, regardless of their religion or lack thereof. So if the implication was that practicing muslim women wear veils etc, then yes you are generalising massively.
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What I got from Steve's post was that if you see women in the type of dress that he describes, they are more than likely to be Muslims. He wasn't saying all Muslim women dress like that, they clearly don't. Is becoming more fashionable amongst younger women though, making a statement - I don't see any burqas or niqabs around where I live but more head coverings than I used to which I noticed a few years ago but don't notice now.
Incidentally there is an extreme Jewish group in which the women wear burqas:-
https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=jewish+women+wearing+burqas&fr=yhs-itm-001&hspart=itm&hsimp=yhs-001&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fqahiri.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F05%2Fultra-orthodox-jewish-dress-code-02.jpg%3Fw%3D460#id=2&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fqahiri.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F05%2Fultra-orthodox-jewish-dress-code-02.jpg%3Fw%3D460&action=click
I've never seen them but they do exist.
PS: I don't believe you are a bigot Steven, you were just making an observation.
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What I got from Steve's post was that if you see women in the type of dress that he describes, they are more than likely to be Muslims.
But that is a different point - of course most women wearing traditional islamic dress are likely to be practicing muslims, but that doesn't mean that most muslim women wear traditional islamic dress.
He wasn't saying all Muslim women dress like that, they clearly don't.
I don't know what he said on Facebook, but what he said here could clearly be interpreted as being that most practicing muslim women wear traditional islamic dress - to quote his words, that he was asking whether he was a bigot:
'...for pointing out on Facebook that practising women dress distinctively, with a veil and their arms and legs covered'
If he made that same comment on Facebook I think it reasonable to call him out for generalising, although that wouldn't necessarily make him bigot. Being careful with language so as not to appear to be generalising is important.
PS: I don't believe you are a bigot Steven, you were just making an observation.
I also don't think that you are a bigot Steve, however your choice of wording here (and perhaps on Facebook too) may get you into hot water for appearing to generalise that most practicing muslim women wear traditional islamic dress.
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Many (probably most) practicing muslim women don't wear clothing that is in any way distinctively 'muslim' and will wear clothes that are the same as those worn by any other women, regardless of their religion or lack thereof. So if the implication was that practicing muslim women wear veils etc, then yes you are generalising massively.
I did say that many Muslim women do not wear distinctive dress, but if they do wear a veil and cover their arms and legs, they are almost certainly a Muslim. (Or a nun.)
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I did say that many Muslim women do not wear distinctive dress, but if they do wear a veil and cover their arms and legs, they are almost certainly a Muslim. (Or a nun.)
I think (as Robbie has already pointed out) that the most common 'distinctive' form of islamic clothing is the head scarf - so you are missing out a whole category of clothing option Steve. Many, likely most, muslim women don't wear clothing that is in any way distinctive. Of those that do many wear a head scarf, while a very small number wear face covering clothing of various types. I did a (completely unscientific) survey cycling on my way back from work last night through one of the areas in the country with the highest muslim population. I didn't see a single person wearing a veil (e.g. burqa or niqab) but plenty wearing hijab and, presumably, plenty more wearing nothing distinctive.
I don't think covering of arms and legs is particularly distinctive, being a feature of traditional clothing from other cultures, e.g. hindu and also being extremely common amongst the 'western' population too.
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I think (as Robbie has already pointed out) that the most common 'distinctive' form of islamic clothing is the head scarf - so you are missing out a whole category of clothing option Steve. Many, likely most, muslim women don't wear clothing that is in any way distinctive. Of those that do many wear a head scarf, while a very small number wear face covering clothing of various types. I did a (completely unscientific) survey cycling on my way back from work last night through one of the areas in the country with the highest muslim population. I didn't see a single person wearing a veil (e.g. burqa or niqab) but plenty wearing hijab and, presumably, plenty more wearing nothing distinctive.
I don't think covering of arms and legs is particularly distinctive, being a feature of traditional clothing from other cultures, e.g. hindu and also being extremely common amongst the 'western' population too.
The head scarf is what I meant by "veil". Wrong word, I suppose.
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The head scarf is what I meant by "veil". Wrong word, I suppose.
Very different thing. Perhaps that lack of care with your wording was what got you into hot water on Facebook if you used incorrect terminology there too.
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Hmm, in response to ProfD’s comments, my Hindu friend used to wear saris (and indeed I’d borrow them) and the top has very short sleeves bearing the arms. In fact it is cropped so there’s often a bit of midriff on show to boot. Thinking about it, she did often wear tights with skirts in the manner of Meghan Markle (beige, sheer) but I don’t know if that was a cheating attempt to cover them or just a personal preference. She didn’t make any effort to cover them on holiday. Sriram and Trippy may know different, but IME while a degree of modesty is expected, covering up isn’t a part of Hindu culture in the way that it is Muslim.
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Hmm, in response to ProfD’s comments, my Hindu friend used to wear saris (and indeed I’d borrow them) and the top has very short sleeves bearing the arms. In fact it is cropped so there’s often a bit of midriff on show to boot. Thinking about it, she did often wear tights with skirts in the manner of Meghan Markle (beige, sheer) but I don’t know if that was a cheating attempt to cover them or just a personal preference. She didn’t make any effort to cover them on holiday. Sriram and Trippy may know different, but IME while a degree of modesty is expected, covering up isn’t a part of Hindu culture in the way that it is Muslim.
That's probably true, but my point was mainly that seeing a woman wearing long sleeves and with their legs covered in no way would be indicative that they are muslim.
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Shouldn't we be a bit worried that ANY woman, Muslim or otherwise, would wear a face covering?
In 'our' culture it means you're hiding something.
Have talked to Muslims about it but never got a straight answer. Of course I CAN'T talk to one of 'those' women as that's why they don it.
Keep Away or my breath smells OR I'm an ugly devil !!?!? LOL Possibly !!!
Nick
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Shouldn't we be a bit worried that ANY woman, Muslim or otherwise, would wear a face covering?
In 'our' culture it means you're hiding something.
Have talked to Muslims about it but never got a straight answer. Of course I CAN'T talk to one of 'those' women as that's why they don it.
Keep Away or my breath smells OR I'm an ugly devil !!?!? LOL Possibly !!!
Nick
Can you show evidence for the claim that in 'our culture' (any chance of a definition!) that a face covering means you are hiding something?
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Don'tlike face coverings, but if it's their free choice and not pressure from others, I suppose it's ok.
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Don'tlike face coverings, but if it's their free choice and not pressure from others, I suppose it's ok.
So they aren't 'hiding something '? That seems to make sense.
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Have any of you lot actually talked to ANY Muslim about their religion/cult.???
NO I thought not !!!!!
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Have any of you lot actually talked to ANY Muslim about their religion/cult.???
NO I thought not !!!!!
Yes. Aw!!! And YOU are wrong!? ;? SHAME!
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Trippy you can ask for yourself, Gabriella would probably explain it to you even though she isn't a Muslim who wears a burqa and niqab. She has great patience, that one.
Or you could politely ask on an Islamic forum. Of course you can't go up to a complete stranger and start asking personal questions ??? ::)!!!
Steven H when did you last see a nun wearing a habit? Any nuns I've encountered in recent years wear ordinary clothes and don't cover their hair. Might be different for nuns in enclosed orders but we wouldn't see them anyway. Nuns of any type are thin on the ground nowadays, we have a handful of them living in a house not far from us in the grounds of what used to be a school.
Burqa wearing women are also thin on the ground in this country unless you are Trippymonkey but the headscarf - hijab - is common especially amongst younger women. Can look very fetching too. It's their choice, this isn't Saudi Arabia.
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Funnily enough I saw a Nun in full garb only yesterday, strolling through our hospital grounds. Then slowly she started to spin round and round and then started to sing........ sorry, the last bit didn't happen, but I always get that image when I think of nuns.
She was definitely there though, honest.
Burqa wearing women are also thin on the ground in this country unless you are Trippymonkey but the headscarf - hijab - is common especially amongst younger women. Can look very fetching too. It's their choice, this isn't Saudi Arabia.
I went to the dentist on Saturday morning (I know, convenient or what) and I had a new dentist and she was wearing the headscarf thingie, for some reason in that situation I found it very reassuring. I have no idea why. The dentist was btw a West Yorkshire Muslim, which is in my mind a very distinct subset of Muslims and I love their accent.
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I'm glad it was good for you Trent :D. Did you see the singing, dancing nun after laughing gas I wonder?
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Yes. Aw!!! And YOU are wrong!? ;? SHAME!
OK So what did they say?
Talk to any Muslim women too?????