Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Rhiannon on July 25, 2018, 08:03:00 AM
-
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/25/conservatives-brexit-big-business
He's right though, isn't he?
-
I don't think he's right in every detail, but the general point is correct IMO. People like Rees Mogg are in favour of Brexit because they stand to do very well out of it on a personal basis. Ordinary people are in for a shafting.
-
I don't think he's right in every detail, but the general point is correct IMO. People like Rees Mogg are in favour of Brexit because they stand to do very well out of it on a personal basis. Ordinary people are in for a shafting.
I think you're right but it'll be doing the things I want to see done as well and the ordinary people always get shafted whatever/whoever's in charge.
I even voted against the EEC in Harold's day too, I certainly didn't vote for ever closer union with the E U and as we are supposed to be living live in a democracy here in the U K we should be leaving.
Regards ippy
-
I don't think he's right in every detail, but the general point is correct IMO. People like Rees Mogg are in favour of Brexit because they stand to do very well out of it on a personal basis. Ordinary people are in for a shafting.
It's actually not just ordinary people, but Britain itself that gets shafted, and will continue to do so. And Britain - all of it, its landscape, economy, wildlife, freedom and rights, people -, is supposed to be what Conservatism stands for. It doesn't.
-
I think that was apparent under Thatcher, wasn't it? The idea that Conservatives conserve is laughable. I suppose if you go back to Macmillan, you had the image of aristocrats preserving an English way of life, but it was rubbish. They preserved their grouse moors, but the younger ones would go into the City and asset strip their way to a fortune.
-
I even voted against the EEC in Harold's day too ...
Interesting comment and indicative of the voting demographics in 1975 and 2016.
There is a lot of guff talked suggesting that because in 2016 it was the young that voted predominantly to remain, and the old that voted predominantly to leave, that 1975 was the same. The inference being that those who were relatively young in 1975 voted to stay in the common market but changed their minds by 2016.
But analysis of the 1975 demographics doesn't back this up. In 1975 the least likely group to support being in the common market were the younger voters, while older voters (probably those who remembered and were affected by the war) voted heavily to join the common market.
So in fact those young anti-common market voters of 1975 became the old brexit voters of 2016 - they hadn't changed their minds at all - they were against in 1975 and remained against in 2016.
-
I think that was apparent under Thatcher, wasn't it? The idea that Conservatives conserve is laughable. I suppose if you go back to Macmillan, you had the image of aristocrats preserving an English way of life, but it was rubbish. They preserved their grouse moors, but the younger ones would go into the City and asset strip their way to a fortune.
I was a youngster under Thatcher; I think it came home to me when George Osborne did away with much of the planning law that protected farmland and communities from over development, selling out the countryside (which is needed to produce food you bloody muppet) whilst enjoying the luxury of his huge country estate.
But then I heard the Benn family did something similar with Right to Roam, or was that fake news?
-
Interesting comment and indicative of the voting demographics in 1975 and 2016.
There is a lot of guff talked suggesting that because in 2016 it was the young that voted predominantly to remain, and the old that voted predominantly to leave, that 1975 was the same. The inference being that those who were relatively young in 1975 voted to stay in the common market but changed their minds by 2016.
But analysis of the 1975 demographics doesn't back this up. In 1975 the least likely group to support being in the common market were the younger voters, while older voters (probably those who remembered and were affected by the war) voted heavily to join the common market.
So in fact those young anti-common market voters of 1975 became the old brexit voters of 2016 - they hadn't changed their minds at all - they were against in 1975 and remained against in 2016.
My family voted for the first time, against the second. They felt that they'd voted to join a trading bloc, not a political union, and therefore believed they'd been lied to.
Pretty much like this recent referendum then, only this one will take us back to the 1950s in terms of our wellbeing.
-
My family voted for the first time, against the second. They felt that they'd voted to join a trading bloc, not a political union, and therefore believed they'd been lied to.
Pretty much like this recent referendum then, only this one will take us back to the 1950s in terms of our wellbeing.
And you'll probably find examples of people who voted against in 1975 and for in 2016. That is missing the point.
The cohort who voted heavily against the EU in 2016 (60+) were also the least in favour of the the common market in 1975 when they were in their twenties and thirties. The older generation in 1975 who swung the vote for the common market are largely dead of course and the younger pro-remain voters in 2016 either hadn't been born in 1975 or were too young to vote.
-
And you'll probably find examples of people who voted against in 1975 and for in 2016. That is missing the point.
The cohort who voted heavily against the EU in 2016 (60+) also voted against the common market in 1975 when they were in their twenties and thirties. The older generation in 1975 who swung the vote for the common market are largely dead of course and the younger pro-remain voters in 2016 either hadn't been born in 1975 or were too young to vote.
No, I got your point, and then made a different one.
-
Interesting comment and indicative of the voting demographics in 1975 and 2016.
There is a lot of guff talked suggesting that because in 2016 it was the young that voted predominantly to remain, and the old that voted predominantly to leave, that 1975 was the same. The inference being that those who were relatively young in 1975 voted to stay in the common market but changed their minds by 2016.
But analysis of the 1975 demographics doesn't back this up. In 1975 the least likely group to support being in the common market were the younger voters, while older voters (probably those who remembered and were affected by the war) voted heavily to join the common market.
So in fact those young anti-common market voters of 1975 became the old brexit voters of 2016 - they hadn't changed their minds at all - they were against in 1975 and remained against in 2016.
Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.
Regards ippy
-
Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.
Regards ippy
How do you know that is what the majority voted for? It wasn't on the ballot paper.
-
Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.
Regards ippy
I'm not sure that the gullible voting on the basis of the lies of the incompetent is a situation that should be welcomed.
-
How do you know that is what the majority voted for? It wasn't on the ballot paper.
It's a reinterpretation. It's also nonsense, as a complete break would mean ports and airports closed to EU traffic.
-
How do you know that is what the majority voted for? It wasn't on the ballot paper.
Indeed - the only thing that needs to happen to 'fulfil the will of the people' as manifested in the referendum, is to leave the EU. That could be a Norway-like leaving or an uber-hard brexit. We cannot know exactly what type of brexit people voted for as that detail wasn't on the ballot paper.
You could, of course, allow us know whether there is a majority for a Norway-style brexit or an uber-hard brexit, for example, by putting the final deal to a confirmatory referendum. Then we'd know that the actual brexit on offer (not a myriad of hypothetical, all-things-to-all-people brexits) actually has majority support. But leavers who are so in thrall to the 'will of the people' in 2016 seem terribly unwilling to actually find out whether the actual brexit deal on offer is also supported as the 'will of the people'.
-
Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.
Regards ippy
The question was should we leave the EU. There was nothing on the ballot about the kind of relationship we should have afterwards, and that is the main reason why everything is such a shambles now.
The other point is that it was a democratic vote of the electorate in 2016. It’s two years later. A lot of old people have died since then and a lot of young people have reached 18. Are you confident that the result would go the same way if we had a democratic vote now?
-
Interesting but the fact remains the leave vote democratically won the vote so we should be leaving making a complete break as was voted for by the majority.
Regards ippy
Millions of quid for Rees Mogg..........Spam for you.
-
Millions of quid for Rees Mogg..........Spam for you.
But for Ippy, that is a price worth paying so that his life can be run by British corporate interests rather than European corporate interests.
What's that you say about trade deals with the US? Well at least American corporate interests speak nearly the same language as us.
-
But for Ippy, that is a price worth paying so that his life can be run by British corporate interests rather than European corporate interests.
What's that you say about trade deals with the US? Well at least American corporate interests speak nearly the same language as us.
In normal times I may have expected the US to throw billions at the UK as some kind of latter day Marshall Aid to prevent us doing deals with er, not the US. But the Brexiteers have been confounded by the new trade policy.
All we are left with is the sorry but logical end of the relationship of fuhrerprincip introduced vaguely by Mr E Powell, promoted by M Thatcher and the carry on brand of humour and now embodied in Rees Mogg.
It's not even Jam tomorrow but spam tomorrow.
-
I think for many, Brexit is an article of faith. Hence, it is impervious to facts, statistics, rational arguments, etc.
-
I think for many, Brexit is an article of faith. Hence, it is impervious to facts, statistics, rational arguments, etc.
Yes I can almost hear Gammons in their late 50's going on about how we managed in the war and how good spam fritters were.
-
You go to far sir. Spam fritters are still wonderful!
-
We can't be far of declaration of a state of emergency to cover up how shit the government are at stockpiling.
-
I think the hard Brexit people are caught in two minds - stockpiling lets the EU know we are serious about no deal, but it might panic people. The solution might be to say that the EU want to starve us into submission, especially the Irish.
-
I think the hard Brexit people are caught in two minds - stockpiling lets the EU know we are serious about no deal, but it might panic people. The solution might be to say that the EU want to starve us into submission, especially the Irish.
Why especially the irish? Are you talking about that Irishman Jacob Rees Mogg?
By this stage we should feel safe in the knowledge that America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are going to provide food, medicines and blood. I thought Farage was big mates with the president and Arron was friends with Russia.
-
We will be enviously watching bushtucker challenge.
The great British Earthworm bake off.
Heston Blumenthals Marmite coated twigs.
-
I think the hard Brexit people are caught in two minds - stockpiling lets the EU know we are serious about no deal, but it might panic people. The solution might be to say that the EU want to starve us into submission, especially the Irish.
Yes, I know you are being satirical but I think that is actually going to be the gist of where blame is laid, don't you?
-
I'm not sure that the gullible voting on the basis of the lies of the incompetent is a situation that should be welcomed.
Well I suppose the supporters of either side of the referendum could be saying the same thing about each other.
Regards ippy
P S I've had a quick read through the posts about leaving the E U and boy doesn't that title remoaner fit well, it looks like the U K's going to vaporise the moment we leave the E U.
Regards ippy
-
I think the hard Brexit people are caught in two minds - stockpiling lets the EU know we are serious about no deal, but it might panic people. The solution might be to say that the EU want to starve us into submission, especially the Irish.
But the stockpiling and ensuring a fluid flow of necessities from America are therefore necessary for a Victory and independence and that is in the purview of the Government.
It is therefore for your beloved BBC to keep an eye on the success of government in this matter but since they are an arm of Government there is, like proper stockpiling and supplies from across the atlantic, fat chance of that.
If you think they will be able to blame Europe how are they going to explain Boris, Nigel, Arron and Jacob larding their tripes at the Savoy?
-
Well I suppose the supporters of either side of the referendum could be saying the same thing about each other.
Regards ippy
P S I've had a quick read through the posts about leaving the E U and boy doesn't that title remoaner fit well, it looks like the U K's going to vaporise the moment we leave the E U.
Regards ippy
The government is stockpiling foods and medicines. Is that what you voted for?
-
The government is stockpiling foods and medicines. Is that what you voted for?
Probably.
-
Probably.
Except you can't actually stockpile food.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/26/stockpile-food-no-deal-brexit-dream-on#comment-118754414
I dated a bloke who worked in a rice mill and actually this is true. Rice comes in, gets milled, goes out to customers. There's no space to store anything and each bag milled already has a customer lined up, usually on the continent.
Even if that custom dries up, there won't be rice coming in to mill anyway, because that was imported via Spain.
-
Except you can't actually stockpile food.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/26/stockpile-food-no-deal-brexit-dream-on#comment-118754414
I dated a bloke who worked in a rice mill and actually this is true. Rice comes in, gets milled, goes out to customers. There's no space to store anything and each bag milled already has a customer lined up, usually on the continent.
Even if that custom dries up, there won't be rice coming in to mill anyway, because that was imported via Spain.
Yes I saw that article. Spam it is then.
-
Yes, I know you are being satirical but I think that is actually going to be the gist of where blame is laid, don't you?
No, I wasn't joking. You can already see the idea that the EU wants to punish us being pushed in the tabloids. So Varadkar was labelled a thug for saying that aviation might be affected.
It's a very weird inversion, the EU are being horrible because they won't give us the benefits that we deserve by leaving. After all, we don't want to be part of their rules anymore, well maybe just a bit.
-
Ippy's idea of a complete break from the EU perhaps should read, well almost complete, no, make that incomplete.
-
Heston Blumenthals Marmite coated twigs.
I think he's been serving those for years.
-
doesn't that title remoaner fit well,
They're talking about shortages of food and medicine, companies leaving the UK and taking their jobs with them, hard borders, chaos at airports and sea ports. our relationships with our neighbours in tatters. We will all be losing a number of rights enshrined in EU law.
You'd be a fucking idiot not to be moaning now.
-
But for Ippy, that is a price worth paying so that his life can be run by British corporate interests rather than European corporate interests.
What's that you say about trade deals with the US? Well at least American corporate interests speak nearly the same language as us.
But for ippy one of the voters that happened to be on the majority side of the in/out E U referendum, well of course they're all half wits, all half wits?
Regards ippy
-
But for ippy one of the voters that happened to be on the majority side of the in/out E U referendum, well of course they're all half wits, all half wits?
Regards ippy
You haven't answered the questions though, have you? Did you intend fo there to be food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs? Is this what you voted for?
-
Brexit fans usually deny that this is happening, or say it's an over-reaction. I find the callousness in this shocking, but I suppose it's a big shift to the right in English politics, aided and abetted by Labour apparently.
-
Brexit fans usually deny that this is happening, or say it's an over-reaction. I find the callousness in this shocking, but I suppose it's a big shift to the right in English politics, aided and abetted by Labour apparently.
Agree, And older people with their pensions and their properties really don't need to give a fuck about people needing to feed families, or young people who have to get work. We really are worthless to them.
-
Well, you are a remoaner, in other words, a traitor.
-
Well, you are a remoaner, in other words, a traitor.
True, and should suffer the consequences of that.
-
You haven't answered the questions though, have you? Did you intend fo there to be food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs? Is this what you voted for?
'Did you intend for there to be food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs? Is this what you voted for?'
No.
How do you know for certain that we'll be having, food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs?
In what way is the forecast for Agamemnon you're giving me any better than any other forecast?
I never imagined that there would be any kind of seamless departure, but departure or leave won the day and that's what I'm expecting no matter how much it upsets the remainers, leave won the vote, you can look on the bright side for yourself, just think of all the things you'll be able to blame on the leavers when we have left, no doubt everything will be blamed on the leavers probably the even the weather.
We're unlikely to agree on this one Rhiannon, we both think the other side on this one has got it half baked and wrong and that's unlikely to alter.
Regards ippy.
-
'Did you intend for there to be food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs? Is this what you voted for?'
No.
How do you know for certain that we'll be having, food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs?
In what way is the forecast for Agamemnon you're giving me any better than any other forecast?
I never imagined that there would be any kind of seamless departure, but departure or leave won the day and that's what I'm expecting no matter how much it upsets the remainers, leave won the vote, you can look on the bright side for yourself, just think of all the things you'll be able to blame on the leavers when we have left, no doubt everything will be blamed on the leavers probably the even the weather.
We're unlikely to agree on this one Rhiannon, we both think the other side on this one has got it half baked and wrong and that's unlikely to alter.
Regards ippy.
It’s very noticeable how the Brexiteers cling to the mantra “we won the vote” (actually you won a vote, and given the change in demographic since then and the awful clusterfuck the Brexiteers have caused, it is really no longer valid). It’s like two years ago, the occupants of a car took a vote as to whether to take the left fork or the right fork. The left forkers won but it is becoming more and more apparent that, down the road, the bridge is out and the car will plunge into a ravine and still the left forkers cry “we won the vote”.
Please stop and look at the chaos that has been wrought and that will be wrought and ask yourself if it’s really worth the cost. Please.
-
'Did you intend for there to be food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs? Is this what you voted for?'
No.
How do you know for certain that we'll be having, food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs?
In what way is the forecast for Agamemnon you're giving me any better than any other forecast?
I never imagined that there would be any kind of seamless departure, but departure or leave won the day and that's what I'm expecting no matter how much it upsets the remainers, leave won the vote, you can look on the bright side for yourself, just think of all the things you'll be able to blame on the leavers when we have left, no doubt everything will be blamed on the leavers probably the even the weather.
We're unlikely to agree on this one Rhiannon, we both think the other side on this one has got it half baked and wrong and that's unlikely to alter.
Regards ippy.
But why, Ippy? Why, with all the risk, and chaos, and potential for disaster - and it is the government that are talking about the need to stockpile food and medicines, not some conspiracy website - could this possibly be a worthwhile venture? What was so bad about before that people's wellbeing and livelihoods can just be thrown to the wind?
-
It’s very noticeable how the Brexiteers cling to the mantra “we won the vote” (actually you won a vote, and given the change in demographic since then and the awful clusterfuck the Brexiteers have caused, it is really no longer valid). It’s like two years ago, the occupants of a car took a vote as to whether to take the left fork or the right fork. The left forkers won but it is becoming more and more apparent that, down the road, the bridge is out and the car will plunge into a ravine and still the left forkers cry “we won the vote”.
Please stop and look at the chaos that has been wrought and that will be wrought and ask yourself if it’s really worth the cost. Please.
All in your opinion jp, I don't agree with you just as all of the others that decided that in their opinion they want to leave the E U, it's not rocket science.
The wording of the referendum wasn't complicated, I must admit I would be as equally annoyed as you appear to be if the vote had gone the other way.
I will keep doing everything I can to stop the so called soft brexit coming to fruition, I detest the tories but I'm joining their club so that I have a vote against T May if we get the chance to vote her out of office, believe me I'll resign from that lot the day after voting against her, perhaps that might convince you that we wont be in agreement about brexit, oh yes and that's not the only action I'm taking at present or in future, everything I can do as an ordinary member of Joe public.
By the way I dont see remainers as wolly headed moaners or thick I just think you're overall wrong so obviously I see leaving has more on the plus side than remaining, probably it's similar for you only visa versa.
Regards ippy
-
But why, Ippy? Why, with all the risk, and chaos, and potential for disaster - and it is the government that are talking about the need to stockpile food and medicines, not some conspiracy website - could this possibly be a worthwhile venture? What was so bad about before that people's wellbeing and livelihoods can just be thrown to the wind?
If I was to go over my reasons for leaving it wouldn't be altering my opinion nor yours, I think it's an unplesent divide, I'm used to exchanges with all on this forum and have no intention of joining the tendency of mutualy questioning the mentality of each other on this question.
I enjoy the excanges on this forum, there's not one poster that I dislike in the least, no matter how much we differ and in my opinion any prolonged arguement about this particular subject is very likely to turn into a bitter, rather resentfull outcome, that I feel is likely to spoil the atmosphere of the forum.
Regards ippy
-
And yet you are happy to insult:
P S I've had a quick read through the posts about leaving the E U and boy doesn't that title remoaner fit well, it looks like the U K's going to vaporise the moment we leave the E U.
I think it is time to remove those rose-tinted, 1950's spectacles that you have borrowed from a Stephen King novel and look at what is involved in leaving, and the very short timescale the country has to get things arranged in.
Clue for you here: WE AREN'T FUCKING SUCCEEDING.
-
That won't impinge on many Brexit fans, as their position is based on faith, not reason.
-
And yet you are happy to insult:
I think it is time to remove those rose-tinted, 1950's spectacles that you have borrowed from a Stephen King novel and look at what is involved in leaving, and the very short timescale the country has to get things arranged in.
Clue for you here: WE AREN'T FUCKING SUCCEEDING.
Yes it would be an insult if it were not on the whole explaining things as they are.
Regards ippy
-
That won't impinge on many Brexit fans, as their position is based on faith, not reason.
Yes we all have our opinion in the same way as you do we've just come to a differing conclusion, it doesn't make us bad people whichever way we may have voted, your reasons for remain I'm sure are very real for you, had the original EEC stayed as it was I dare say we wouldn't be in the place we are now.
It's now a considerable wound to the U K and is now turning into quite a fought best left area of conversation even among friends, old friends even, whichever remain or leaver, you must have noticed.
Regards ippy
-
'Did you intend for there to be food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs? Is this what you voted for?'
No.
How do you know for certain that we'll be having, food shortages, stockpiling of medicines, people losing their jobs?
In what way is the forecast for Agamemnon you're giving me any better than any other forecast?
I never imagined that there would be any kind of seamless departure, but departure or leave won the day and that's what I'm expecting no matter how much it upsets the remainers, leave won the vote, you can look on the bright side for yourself, just think of all the things you'll be able to blame on the leavers when we have left, no doubt everything will be blamed on the leavers probably the even the weather.
We're unlikely to agree on this one Rhiannon, we both think the other side on this one has got it half baked and wrong and that's unlikely to alter.
Regards ippy.
Your thinking reminds me of a bloke I used to work with who would spend pounds of his hard earned
On the fruit machine in the pub but would be happy with a win no matter if his losses far exceeded the
Amount won.
Of course he just used his own money.
There is no fucking bright side to this.
-
It's now a considerable wound to the U K and is now turning into quite a fought best left area of conversation even among friends, old friends even, whichever remain or leaver, you must have noticed.
Regards ippy
The only silver lining of that is it belies the guffings of the insufferable Giles Frazier. The Bishop of Brexitter.
-
it doesn't make us bad people whichever way we may have voted,
It doesn't, but I would have thought pause for thought would have been given when you look at the people you are allied with.
During the referendum I was subjected to homophobic abuse on the Facebook platform for supporting remain - I think I even posted it here. The same happened to friends who were from ethnic backgrounds. There was a concerted, determined effort to intimidate people on the basis of whatever characteristic they may have. The fact that being gay had no influence on my decision didn't matter - they played the person not the ball.
And as the adage has it "not every leave supporter is racist, but every racist is a leave supporter."
-
I think Wiggs hit the nail on the head when he noted that for Brexit enthusiasts it is now an article of faith - and we also see in that the zeal of the recently converted: for that is what they are.
There was no public clamour for exiting the EU prior to the last GE won by Cameron: the only clamour was from the lunatic fringe of the Tory party, and they had been clamouring for ages since I recall John Major described them as 'bastards' when he was PM. Cameron offered the referendum as a means to sideline said lunatic fringe but he never planned for the contingency that there were sufficient numbers of the gullible in certain parts of the UK (but not all parts of the UK) that would be susceptible to lies and misinformation.
The result is that the Tory party, which is the subject of this thread, has changed fundamentally in that the mentality of their lunatic fringe has now taken over the party to the extent that even a PM who wasn't pro-Brexit, and who no doubt realises that it is in reality a disastrous policy, is unable to stand up to them for fear of being accused of treachery and so she steers a course direct towards the iceberg while the frantic and constant reorganising of the deckchairs gives the false impression of purposeful activity.
Perhaps, even now, somebody might yet be able to get their hands on the tiller and change course.
-
May's deal looks dead in the water now. Some journalists are talking up EEA but the Ultras will nix that. There is also some belief that the EU really don't want a chaotic Brexit, and will offer some kind of transition. But the inmates have taken over the asylum, after all Ultras probably stand to make money out of no deal. What else Is there? Have we really spent the last two years moving towards chaos and stockpiling?
-
Your thinking reminds me of a bloke I used to work with who would spend pounds of his hard earned
On the fruit machine in the pub but would be happy with a win no matter if his losses far exceeded the
Amount won.
Of course he just used his own money.
There is no fucking bright side to this.
Yes Vlad, in your opinion.
Regards ippy.
-
That sounds a bit like the sunk cost fallacy, I've invested so much in this project, I can't stop now, even though I'm losing. Often found among gamblers, ha ha.
-
It doesn't, but I would have thought pause for thought would have been given when you look at the people you are allied with.
During the referendum I was subjected to homophobic abuse on the Facebook platform for supporting remain - I think I even posted it here. The same happened to friends who were from ethnic backgrounds. There was a concerted, determined effort to intimidate people on the basis of whatever characteristic they may have. The fact that being gay had no influence on my decision didn't matter - they played the person not the ball.
And as the adage has it "not every leave supporter is racist, but every racist is a leave supporter."
I have no interest in any ones sexuality some you can't help noticing but that's all and in 1979 I adopted the first of me two black sons, my wife and I are so called white people.
I do think that the remainers are so frustrated that any of the slimmest pieces of anti-leavers propaganda they can find that's probably correct in a few cases, has been blown up to proportions that exaggerate anything the remainers wish to use against the leavers.
I dare say you would find something like a similar amount of things like homophobia etc among the remainers if you were bothered enough to look for it.
I have never had anyone try to intimidate me or have seen or read about this happening except here of course, nor would I want to get involved in the intimidating of anyone else.
Regards ippy
-
I think Wiggs hit the nail on the head when he noted that for Brexit enthusiasts it is now an article of faith - and we also see in that the zeal of the recently converted: for that is what they are.
There was no public clamour for exiting the EU prior to the last GE won by Cameron: the only clamour was from the lunatic fringe of the Tory party, and they had been clamouring for ages since I recall John Major described them as 'bastards' when he was PM. Cameron offered the referendum as a means to sideline said lunatic fringe but he never planned for the contingency that there were sufficient numbers of the gullible in certain parts of the UK (but not all parts of the UK) that would be susceptible to lies and misinformation.
The result is that the Tory party, which is the subject of this thread, has changed fundamentally in that the mentality of their lunatic fringe has now taken over the party to the extent that even a PM who wasn't pro-Brexit, and who no doubt realises that it is in reality a disastrous policy, is unable to stand up to them for fear of being accused of treachery and so she steers a course direct towards the iceberg while the frantic and constant reorganising of the deckchairs gives the false impression of purposeful activity.
Perhaps, even now, somebody might yet be able to get their hands on the tiller and change course.
I see all leavers are lunatics, well yes that another point of view, you're entitled.
Regards ippy
-
I see all leavers are lunatics, well yes that another point of view, you're entitled.
Regards ippy
How else can you describe endangering the health and food supply of yourself and your countrymen and still describe yourself as not only patriotic but a better patriot?
-
We were joking about a subsistence diet in Norfolk. We could grow spuds and leeks, gather samphire at the coast, and fish for pike and zander in local rivers. It is a joke, isn't it?
I see warnings about diabetes medicine, which keep for 3 months in the fridge, so can't be stockpiled. Hard to believe this stuff, but it's the govt that are stockpiling, isn't it?
-
All in your opinion jp, I don't agree with you just as all of the others that decided that in their opinion they want to leave the E U, it's not rocket science.
The government is stockpiling supplies for christ's sake. This is not my opinion.
The wording of the referendum wasn't complicated, I must admit I would be as equally annoyed as you appear to be if the vote had gone the other way.
You might have been annoyed but you wouldn't be looking forward to shortages of food and drugs.
It's obvious, in hindsight, that the wording was too simple. There should have been a way for Leavers to specify which form of Brexit they did want.
I will keep doing everything I can to stop the so called soft brexit coming to fruition,
Why? There's no democratic mandate for a hard Brexit. Had the referendum asked what kind of Brexit people wanted, the soft option together with Remain would probably have an overwhelming majority.
By the way I dont see remainers as wolly headed moaners or thick I just think you're overall wrong so obviously I see leaving has more on the plus side than remaining, probably it's similar for you only visa versa.
Well I just think you are wrong and the evidence is on my side.
-
Yes it would be an insult if it were not on the whole explaining things as they are.
Regards ippy
So you think people aren’t entitled to ‘moan’ about not being able to feed their kids, because they will lose their jobs, their friends? People aren’t entitled to moan because they can’t get life-saving medication? And for what? A point of principle you can’t even be bothered to explain.
-
when you look at the people you are allied with.
In the spirit of trying to keep the conversation slightly on topic, let's look at who Ippy is allied with, from the Tory Party.
We have Michael Gove who stabbed his leader in the back and stabbed his ally in the back and failed to step up himself.
We have David Davies who stabbed his leader in the back and abandoned his post.
We have Jacob Rees Mogg who wants to go back to the 60's (the 1860's) and who has now said it will be 50 years before we know if this has been worth it or not. He is also moving some of his money into Ireland.
We have Boris Johnson who stabbed two of his leaders in the back and abandoned his post. The morning after the Brexit vote, the expression on his face suggests that he had just shat himself. He never really wanted Brexit but is using it to further his domestic ambitions.
We have Nigel Farage whose strong commitment to leaving the EU doesn't go as far as refusing his MEP's salary (paid in Euros which means the tanking of Sterling is a pay rise for him).
These people want to repeal the European Human Rights laws and labour laws. Why is that do you think? They have not got the ordinary people of the UK's best interests at heart only their own ambition and greed.
-
It’s the same smoke-and-mirrors tactics used by Trump.
-
The government is stockpiling supplies for christ's sake. This is not my opinion.
You might have been annoyed but you wouldn't be looking forward to shortages of food and drugs.
It's obvious, in hindsight, that the wording was too simple. There should have been a way for Leavers to specify which form of Brexit they did want.
Why? There's no democratic mandate for a hard Brexit. Had the referendum asked what kind of Brexit people wanted, the soft option together with Remain would probably have an overwhelming majority.
Well I just think you are wrong and the evidence is on my side.
Always good to hear the other side's case and I'm sure I referred to a 'so called' hard brexit which means we agree on that one specific point.
I have no idea why this stockpiling is going on and it doesn't surprise me you take a negative view on anything you think is a brexit area, we'll see in the end where the leave takes us just as you take a negative view I think the evidence I've seen and heard about leaving has more on the plus side than the other way around, we'll see.
I've no doubt we'll have years and years of blaming leaving the E U for everything from remainers and I have to be fair and admit if the vote had been visa versa, I'd more than likely do the same.
Regards ippy
-
In the spirit of trying to keep the conversation slightly on topic, let's look at who Ippy is allied with, from the Tory Party.
We have Michael Gove who stabbed his leader in the back and stabbed his ally in the back and failed to step up himself.
We have David Davies who stabbed his leader in the back and abandoned his post.
We have Jacob Rees Mogg who wants to go back to the 60's (the 1860's) and who has now said it will be 50 years before we know if this has been worth it or not. He is also moving some of his money into Ireland.
We have Boris Johnson who stabbed two of his leaders in the back and abandoned his post. The morning after the Brexit vote, the expression on his face suggests that he had just shat himself. He never really wanted Brexit but is using it to further his domestic ambitions.
We have Nigel Farage whose strong commitment to leaving the EU doesn't go as far as refusing his MEP's salary (paid in Euros which means the tanking of Sterling is a pay rise for him).
These people want to repeal the European Human Rights laws and labour laws. Why is that do you think? They have not got the ordinary people of the UK's best interests at heart only their own ambition and greed.
I felt sure that I didn't break any laws E U or U K when I voted for leave?
Regards ippy.
-
I felt sure that I didn't break any laws E U or U K when I voted for leave?
Regards ippy.
As I suspect that history will show Brexit, if it happens, to be disastrous and Brexit supporters to be those whose gullibility and biases allowed them to believe lies, misinformation and no information and who are in denial that this suicidal policy will damage everyone affected by it. Much as I would like Brexit to be a precursor the the break-up of the UK, it gives me no pleasure to see the damage it will cause to everyone in the UK if it happens.
When I listen to the nonsense spouted by Brexit enthusiasts it is akin to listening to Ward Bond advising us all to get the wagons in a circle and all will then be well - and it won't.
-
So you think people aren’t entitled to ‘moan’ about not being able to feed their kids, because they will lose their jobs, their friends? People aren’t entitled to moan because they can’t get life-saving medication? And for what? A point of principle you can’t even be bothered to explain.
It's very striking that fans of Brexit rarely explain what they want. Well, ippy talks of a complete break, but this is unreal, so we close Dover to EU traffic? I suppose the Ultras talk of WTO, but I wonder if they know what that involves, e.g. non-tariff barriers and non-discrimination rules. I mean Davis looked completely out of his depth. I think they think that we will crash out, barring an emergency transition. A friend of mine joked that we might get UN emergency intervention, bringing food and medicine, not all that funny.
-
As I suspect that history will show Brexit, if it happens, to be disastrous and Brexit supporters to be those whose gullibility and biases allowed them to believe lies, misinformation and no information and who are in denial that this suicidal policy will damage everyone affected by it. Much as I would like Brexit to be a precursor the the break-up of the UK, it gives me no pleasure to see the damage it will cause to everyone in the UK if it happens.
When I listen to the nonsense spouted by Brexit enthusiasts it is akin to listening to Ward Bond advising us all to get the wagons in a circle and all will then be well - and it won't.
Likewise in the opposite way the opposing way to leave is just a bad to me, but I only think of remainers as wrong.
Regards ippy.
-
Likewise in the opposite way the opposing way to leave is just a bad to me, but I only think of remainers as wrong.
Regards ippy.
Because why? You still won't explain yourself.
-
Because why? You still won't explain yourself.
No point, neither of us will be argued around.
Regards ippy
-
Let's face it, the public were kept in the dark about the details of Brexit, partly because hardly anyone understood it, least of all the govt. For example, it is probably impossible to have frictionless trade outside the single market, but May has kept up her fantasy that you could. If the hard Brexit fans were honest about what they want, they would crash and burn. Still, Rule Britannia, and long live ignorance and lies!
-
One incredible point about N. Ireland, is that it voted remain, yet the govt seem to listen to the DUP, more than anyone, for obvious reasons. I hope they are not stoking up trouble there. What a way to run a whelk-stall.
-
No point, neither of us will be argued around.
Regards ippy
I am not seeking to argue - what would the point of that even be? I am seeking to understand. At the moment it looks like you have no reason to put forward.
-
It could be that now it looks like a national disaster, Public Brexitteering is at an end....after all has anyone heard anything serious from Johnson, Davis, Mogg or Farage. The press are now pleading with us not to recreate the Scene of crime (a referendum) exposing their offence of bullshitting the public.
I seem to recall everyone had sympathy with the fuel protestors until it was realised how much life was disrupted.
-
From the people who brought you Carry on up the Brexit
Theresa May stars in the remake of CRANK
After injected with Brexit by a break away group of UKIP known as ''their entire membership'', The Tories have to keep up their adrenaline levels other wise they will become remainer again.
To do this they arrange a non stop tour of Europe but even this fails to keep them going so they have to indulge in shafting the British people in public.
With Jason Statham as Jeremy Hunt.
-
I have no interest in any ones sexuality some you can't help noticing but that's all and in 1979 I adopted the first of me two black sons, my wife and I are so called white people.
I do think that the remainers are so frustrated that any of the slimmest pieces of anti-leavers propaganda they can find that's probably correct in a few cases, has been blown up to proportions that exaggerate anything the remainers wish to use against the leavers.
I dare say you would find something like a similar amount of things like homophobia etc among the remainers if you were bothered enough to look for it.
I have never had anyone try to intimidate me or have seen or read about this happening except here of course, nor would I want to get involved in the intimidating of anyone else.
Regards ippy
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
My point was not about you. It was about some of the people who voted for Brexit and if you can't find it in your mind to ackowledge the truth about them, then there really is little point discussing this with you. But to put it bluntly you are in the bloc that voted with Britain First and all the other nasty, ugly racist groups that are out there.
My point sucvinctly put is, if you sleep with dogs you will catch fleas.
-
I have no idea why this stockpiling is going on
It's pretty basic. If there's a no deal Brexit, the borders immediately become hard borders with customs checks and tariffs (possibly) on all goods in transit. Also certain agreements that we depend on for the smooth flow of goods become void. For example, in a no deal Brexit, British driving licences will no longer be valid in Europe and vice versa. What will the lorry divers do? British air worthiness certificates will no longer be valid in Europe and vice versa. Therefore no flights.
The problems of things like driving licences and aircraft are easy to resolve, but nobody has done anything about them yet, and time is running out. The problem of customs inspections is much harder to resolve because it will need a lot of new infrastructure and staff and they really needed to plan this about five years ago for us to be ready in March next year.
and it doesn't surprise me you take a negative view on anything you think is a brexit area, we'll see in the end where the leave takes us just as you take a negative view I think the evidence I've seen and heard about leaving has more on the plus side than the other way around, we'll see.
The Remoaners[sic] have been explaining why we have a negative view since before the referendum. We've listed the issues and explained why we think they are issues. We've pointed to the evidence. In response, you are just hand waving. There's no substance to your posts, they all come down to "you're really negative and I think it's going to be fine". Well it's not going to be fine.
-
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
My point was not about you. It was about some of the people who voted for Brexit and if you can't find it in your mind to ackowledge the truth about them, then there really is little point discussing this with you. But to put it bluntly you are in the bloc that voted with Britain First and all the other nasty, ugly racist groups that are out there.
My point sucvinctly put is, if you sleep with dogs you will catch fleas.
Especially with reference to the last line of your post, I find the whole of your mailing on this subject out of character, measured against the usual approach you take on most other subjects?
Regards ippy
-
It's pretty basic. If there's a no deal Brexit, the borders immediately become hard borders with customs checks and tariffs (possibly) on all goods in transit. Also certain agreements that we depend on for the smooth flow of goods become void. For example, in a no deal Brexit, British driving licences will no longer be valid in Europe and vice versa. What will the lorry divers do? British air worthiness certificates will no longer be valid in Europe and vice versa. Therefore no flights.
The problems of things like driving licences and aircraft are easy to resolve, but nobody has done anything about them yet, and time is running out. The problem of customs inspections is much harder to resolve because it will need a lot of new infrastructure and staff and they really needed to plan this about five years ago for us to be ready in March next year.
The Remoaners[sic] have been explaining why we have a negative view since before the referendum. We've listed the issues and explained why we think they are issues. We've pointed to the evidence. In response, you are just hand waving. There's no substance to your posts, they all come down to "you're really negative and I think it's going to be fine". Well it's not going to be fine.
When we leave the effectively the united states of europe, there's bound to be some temporary disruption the Brussels lot I doubt will be making things easy for us, I understand why remainers it seems want to hear these sorts of stories in some sort of I told you so responce, it would more than likely be the same if the vote had been visa versa, yes when I think about it I would be furious.
I overall think the balance favours all of the reasons you most often hear or read about the leaving side of the arguments, and the remaining arguments haven't come up with anything that makes me want to change my mind, I understand your arguments but I think overall you've got it wrong.
I'm sorry if you don't like it because I wont argue here but that's only because it would be fruitless, I wont be budging from my leaving opinion just the same as you with your remaining.
Regards ippy
-
Especially with reference to the last line of your post, I find the whole of your mailing on this subject out of character, measured against the usual approach you take on most other subjects?
Regards ippy
Well maybe that's because I have not seen such a threat to my way of life thus far in my life. I'm feeling threatened on a number of issues: health, defence, security, energy, rights for working people.
You have a mantra of everything will turn out alright. I have no such faith in the people in charge to even begin to make this anywhere approaching OK.
-
When we leave the effectively the united states of europe, there's bound to be some temporary disruption the Brussels lot I doubt will be making things easy for us, I understand why remainers it seems want to hear these sorts of stories in some sort of I told you so responce, it would more than likely be the same if the vote had been visa versa, yes when I think about it I would be furious.
I overall think the balance favours all of the reasons you most often hear or read about the leaving side of the arguments, and the remaining arguments haven't come up with anything that makes me want to change my mind, I understand your arguments but I think overall you've got it wrong.
I'm sorry if you don't like it because I wont argue here but that's only because it would be fruitless, I wont be budging from my leaving opinion just the same as you with your remaining.
Regards ippy
You may find people have more respect for your opinion if you said why you voted to leave 'the united states of Europe', but as you refuse to do so we can only conclude that it was 'because I felt like it'.
-
You may find people have more respect for your opinion if you said why you voted to leave 'the united states of Europe', but as you refuse to do so we can only conclude that it was 'because I felt like it'.
I explained my P O V in my post 82 on this thread Rhiannon, it looks like you may have missed it.
Regards ippy
-
I explained my P O V in my post 82 on this thread Rhiannon, it looks like you may have missed it.
Regards ippy
No, it doesn't explain why you voted the way that you did.
-
Well maybe that's because I have not seen such a threat to my way of life thus far in my life. I'm feeling threatened on a number of issues: health, defence, security, energy, rights for working people.
You have a mantra of everything will turn out alright. I have no such faith in the people in charge to even begin to make this anywhere approaching OK.
It doesn't take a brain as fluidly perceptual as Einstine to understand that the E U H Q can't be seen to give the U K a nice sunny Sunday easy drive out of their charge via the scenic root.
We'll never agree on this one but say you or anyone else looks at any given problem, sometimes it's a good idea to sit down and write a list with two columns, for and against.
The EU leave/remain isn't an easy one, I've no reason to plant nasturtiums on any of your thought processes, my two columns I think well thought out look at all of the various arguments isn't the same as your, I'm sure, well thought out too list of for and against and as I keep on saying I really think it's time we learned that this state of disagreement isn't going to change.
Is there anything we could say to each other that would turn either one of us? I wont be changing my mind just as no doubt you wont be changing yours.
With such strong points of view held all over the U K the best that could be done in my view was dealt with.
Regards ippy.
-
No, it doesn't explain why you voted the way that you did.
In your opinion.
Regards ippy.
-
You're right (Rhiannon), the post doesn't explain why ippy voted to leave. I don't think many people find their reasons easy to explain, it was a sort of gut reaction. Brexit will not have too much of an unfavourable effect on those on pension with mortgage paid up but will affect their children and grandchildren.
After the disastrous (imo) and unexpected result of the referendum I felt sure it would be reversed, there would be another referendum or an about turn. Now I'm genuinely worried, not for myself but for younger people who are likely to face great difficulties in the not too distant future - which is dreadful & how long will it last? Life isn't all that easy for many now, it's downright cruel to make it worse.
Sorry, haven't added much to the discussion but I feel somewhat wound up about it all. (Yes I voted Remain.)
-
Especially with reference to the last line of your post, I find the whole of your mailing on this subject out of character, measured against the usual approach you take on most other subjects?
Regards ippy
More handwaving. Instead of addressing the points you just claim it is "out of character" for the rest offs to come up with inconvenient truths.
-
When we leave the effectively the united states of europe,
That's a falsehood. The EU is not a united states of Europe. As a member of the EU, the UK (ironically a set of united states) has a veto over any moves to make the EU a united states. Anyway, what's so bad about the concept?
there's bound to be some temporary disruption the Brussels lot I doubt will be making things easy for us, I understand why remainers it seems want to hear these sorts of stories in some sort of I told you so responce, it would more than likely be the same if the vote had been visa versa, yes when I think about it I would be furious.
But if the vote had gone the other way, there would be no disruption, temporary or otherwise. Also, we wouldn't have spent the last two years doing nothing but tearing each other apart. Nothing would have changed so you would be no more furious now than you were before the vote was announced.
I overall think the balance favours all of the reasons you most often hear or read about the leaving side of the arguments, and the remaining arguments haven't come up with anything that makes me want to change my mind, I understand your arguments but I think overall you've got it wrong.
We haven't heard any of your arguments. You just keep saying "I am right".
I'm sorry if you don't like it because I wont argue here but that's only because it would be fruitless, I wont be budging from my leaving opinion just the same as you with your remaining.
Here's my main problem. You don't put up any arguments. WSe are in the midst of chaos and all you keep saying is "I am right. You lot should stop moaning". Please take an objective look at what Brexit has done to our country.
-
Very few fans of Brexit are able to give concrete explanations. As jeremy said, lots of handwaving. And now, incredibly, after two years, few of them are able to give any more detail, except mumbling something about WTO. Neither Davis or Johnson have given any further explanations after their resignations. I remember Suez, and this is about as bonkers, and remember Suez was based on a gigantic lie.
-
More handwaving. Instead of addressing the points you just claim it is "out of character" for the rest offs to come up with inconvenient truths.
Neither of us will be changing our minds about how we voted in the Ref, so I see it as completely pointless arguing about the various aspects of in or out.
I probably agree with most of the people you see as damn near holding views about the EU as poisonous, so it is rather obvious any exchange I'm sure would turn in ways I don't wish to go.
The last paragraph is telling you my thoughts as far I will be going into how I feel about the EU.
I would feel something like bashing remainers if we had lost the vote, I understand a little of how it must feel for remainers and that's about it; perhaps find someone else to bash, metaphorically.
Regards ippy
-
I overall think the balance favours all of the reasons you most often hear or read about the leaving side of the arguments, and the remaining arguments haven't come up with anything that makes me want to change my mind, I understand your arguments but I think overall you've got it wrong.
What arguments? Why on earth is leaving the EU worth the economic cost (even Rees-Mogg is saying it might be 50 years (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-economy-brexit_uk_5b54e3b5e4b0de86f48e3566) before we see any benefit), job losses, and the inevitable disruption (even if we ignore the increasingly likely consequences of having no deal)?
What is so terrible about the EU or even a United States of Europe?
-
You're right (Rhiannon), the post doesn't explain why ippy voted to leave. I don't think many people find their reasons easy to explain, it was a sort of gut reaction. Brexit will not have too much of an unfavourable effect on those on pension with mortgage paid up but will affect their children and grandchildren.
After the disastrous (imo) and unexpected result of the referendum I felt sure it would be reversed, there would be another referendum or an about turn. Now I'm genuinely worried, not for myself but for younger people who are likely to face great difficulties in the not too distant future - which is dreadful & how long will it last? Life isn't all that easy for many now, it's downright cruel to make it worse.
Sorry, haven't added much to the discussion but I feel somewhat wound up about it all. (Yes I voted Remain.)
It's a bit like two substantial brick and perhaps reinforced concrete standpoints this in out of the EU Rob, it wouldn't matter whatever I said about my point of view on this it'd be similar to a head on crash, I would be furious had we lost the vote I am sorry about how you feel not the result of the vote.
We'll I'm sure differ on this till the day we die, the ref annoying as it is for your side of the arguments really was the only way as far as I'm concerned.
Oh yes, I won't be arguing about whether we should of had a ref or not either, so don't bother to bring that up with me, just in case anyone was thinking of that one, this comment isn't so much directed at you Rob.
Regards ippy
-
On stockpiling, I was chatting to a guy who ordered £3000 worth of catfood on Amazon, and they refused the order, as they thought he was reselling it. Wot a laaf. So remember with spam, just a few tins at a time, and above all, be like dad, keep mum!
-
It's a bit like two substantial brick and perhaps reinforced concrete standpoints this in out of the EU Rob, it wouldn't matter whatever I said about my point of view on this it'd be similar to a head on crash, I would be furious had we lost the vote I am sorry about how you feel not the result of the vote.
We'll I'm sure differ on this till the day we die, the ref annoying as it is for your side of the arguments really was the only way as far as I'm concerned.
Oh yes, I won't be arguing about whether we should of had a ref or not either, so don't bother to bring that up with me, just in case anyone was thinking of that one, this comment isn't so much directed at you Rob.
Regards ippy
And again with the avoidance.
-
Unintelligible too.
We must go on, working, playing and all that, regardless of what happens. It would be bad to be too bogged down with worries - yet the worry is still there even if we shelve it for a while.
Stockpiling? What about people who don't have a garage or even a spare cupboard, never mind a little patch to grow fruit and veg.
I've read about people who are saving for a house deposit and now intend to sit on their money because they think house prices will fall dramatically. We've seen that before, it's lovely for the buyers and fine for those staying put but could be catastrophic for those selling.
-
You will only get avoidance with Brexit fans. Reason is, they haven't a clue what it involves. Ask them about non-discrimination rules under WTO, and have a laugh.
I don't think the govt idea is for households to stockpile, but food companies. But they probably can't, because many have just-in-time production lines. However, no doubt many individuals will start. Do we make our own bog-rolls?
-
And again with the avoidance.
Openly stating exactly my position, sorry you don't like it.
Regards ippy
-
You will only get avoidance with Brexit fans. Reason is, they haven't a clue what it involves. Ask them about non-discrimination rules under WTO, and have a laugh.
I don't think the govt idea is for households to stockpile, but food companies. But they probably can't, because many have just-in-time production lines. However, no doubt many individuals will start. Do we make our own bog-rolls?
Seriously Wiggi, if we both wrote out in full where we think each other have got brexit wrong, I doubt we'd agree about the size or colour of the paper, there can be as many attempted wind ups as anyone likes to comes out with I've said as much as I'm prepared to say/write.
Regards ippy
-
Neither of us will be changing our minds about how we voted in the Ref, so I see it as completely pointless arguing about the various aspects of in or out.
I probably agree with most of the people you see as damn near holding views about the EU as poisonous, so it is rather obvious any exchange I'm sure would turn in ways I don't wish to go.
The last paragraph is telling you my thoughts as far I will be going into how I feel about the EU.
I would feel something like bashing remainers if we had lost the vote, I understand a little of how it must feel for remainers and that's about it; perhaps find someone else to bash, metaphorically.
Regards ippy
Actual arguments conspicuous by their absence. If you feel like you are being bashed, it's probably because Brexiteers have plunged us into chaos and they won't tell us why.
-
One interesting suggestion is to charge no tariffs on EU imports. However, under WTO rules, this must then be applied to all countries. Also, it ignores checks on hygiene, provenance, etc., the legendary non-tariff barriers. Never mind, the govt will give us the full details by 2025.
Isn't the lack of information incredible? But then I thought the govt don't actually know what they're doing.
-
Actual arguments conspicuous by their absence. If you feel like you are being bashed, it's probably because Brexiteers have plunged us into chaos and they won't tell us why.
Why the inference that you think I feel like I'm being bashed? Nothing to do with anything I've written, it looks like a Vlad style twisting of the semantics.
Regards ippy.
-
Why the inference that you think I feel like I'm being bashed? Nothing to do with anything I've written, it looks like a Vlad style twisting of the semantics.
Well there was this.
I would feel something like bashing remainers if we had lost the vote, I understand a little of how it must feel for remainers and that's about it; perhaps find someone else to bash, metaphorically.
The implication of that is that you think we are bashing you
-
I hope Steve Bannon finds Boris Johnson as skilful, trustworthy and loyal a servent as we did when the fat cockwomble of Uxbridge was foreign secretary.