Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Harrowby Hall on August 08, 2018, 08:12:17 AM
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I have to admit that I am somewhat conflicted by the consequences of Mr Johnson's latest characterisation of "islamic dress".
In the first place, anything which restricts the progress of this fatuous, self-important, bloated nonentity on its self-appointed journey to 10 Downing Street has my approval, but I am disappointed to observe that it appears to be some form of political correctness that is currently being used.
My view is that everyone has the right to hold any religious belief they wish and that right is absolute. But it is also my view that believers do not have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else. There is little that is "islamic" about the grossly enveloping and de-humanising garments that are forced upon adult (and sometimes child) female adherents of islam. They are most likely remnants of earlier tribal times where women were considered to be possessions with values equivalent to those of well-kept camels. That women should choose to wear such garments is one thing - but there remains the possibility that they either have no choice in the matter or have been brainwashed in a patriarchal environment into doing so.
The idea that religious practices and beliefs may not be questioned is inimical in a civilised, secular society. It is up to believers to justify their beliefs not to expect society to protect them. Boris Johnson has expressed a valid opinion in an open society on the behaviour of some citizens. He should not be penalised for this. I note that Baroness Warsi does not go around dressed in a bell tent.
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As a Muslim women said yesterday, I don't notice any great outcry to ban motorcycle helmets and yet I have been robbed twice by men on mopeds wearing helmets. Strangely a woman in a burka has never attacked me.
It's an exercise in "othering" as discussed elsewhere on the board. I think it is borderline racist - you can argue that it's typical Johnson hyperbole, but the problem with that is, as we are seeing over the pond, hyperbole can have some very unfortunate consequences.
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On the Radio 4 PM programme yesterday, Eddie Mair read out quite a long section of the Daily Telegraph article and it was quite cclear from that that the remarks taken out of context were not the vile, terrible slur they are alredy being made out to be.
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As a Muslim women said yesterday, I don't notice any great outcry to ban motorcycle helmets and yet I have been robbed twice by men on mopeds wearing helmets.
Helmets serve a legitimate purpose though - and though you may never have encountered it, there's a libertarian argument that people should not be legally compelled to wear them (likewise seatbelts).
It's an exercise in "othering" as discussed elsewhere on the board.
As in the aforementioned discussion, some people other themselves.
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I see that the notion he is speaking on behalf of a liberal agenda has been raised by one of his supporters (as quoted in the BBC website).
Call me a cynic if you will but I wonder if this isn't more about keeping up Boris's profile during the Westminster recess now that he isn't a cabinet minister any more - it reminds me of the adage that goes along the lines of 'there is no such thing as bad publicity: there is just publicity'.
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I see that the notion he is speaking on behalf of a liberal agenda has been raised by one of his supporters (as quoted in the BBC website).
Call me a cynic if you will but I wonder if this isn't more about keeping up Boris's profile during the Westminster recess now that he isn't a cabinet minister any more - it reminds me of the adage that goes along the lines of 'there is no such thing as bad publicity: there is just publicity'.
Could he actually be wanting to lose the whip?
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I think that what really concerns me about this is the implication that religious beliefs and associated behaviour are beyond criticism. I do not think that the Conservative Party will do itself any good by punishing Johnson for his comments.
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Could he actually be wanting to lose the whip?
Perhaps.
This reminds me of yet another adage, one I recall from Yes Minister along the lines of 'politicians much prefer notoriety to obscurity'. Maybe he wants to be thought of as an edgy charismatic leader albeit he has as much charisma as a rotten apple, unless of course one is a fan of rotten apples.
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I think that what really concerns me about this is the implication that religious beliefs and associated behaviour are beyond criticism.
That is a fair point, but I don't think that is Boris's key point in this episode - I think in this episode Boris's key point is Boris.
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Could he actually be wanting to lose the whip?
No,but he would love the threat to be made. Essentially this is straight out the Trump playbook.
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I think that what really concerns me about this is the implication that religious beliefs and associated behaviour are beyond criticism. I do not think that the Conservative Party will do itself any good by punishing Johnson for his comments.
Not sure that implication is there, and the much bigger worry on that is surely the argument on anti-Semitism in the Labour Party?
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Boris behaves like a clown, his remarks about burkas weren't helpful!
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I think that what really concerns me about this is the implication that religious beliefs and associated behaviour are beyond criticism. I do not think that the Conservative Party will do itself any good by punishing Johnson for his comments.
But this has to be seen in the context of the problems that Labour has with anti-Semitism, which are being countered with accusations that the Tories have similar issues with Islamophobia. Obviously the two aren't the same, but the Tories could be thinking about point-scoring by taking 'decisive' action over Johnson. The downside to that would be that Johnson is the a loose cannon, but he is that anyway.
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No,but he would love the threat to be made. Essentially this is straight out the Trump playbook.
Yep, agree with this. He's not stupid, is he?
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Boris behaves like a clown, his remarks about burkas weren't helpful!
He might behave like a clown....but he knows exactly what he's doing, and he probably had every intention of being 'Boris' in his column.
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Yep, agree with this. He's not stupid, is he?
Not at all, the discussion of the burqa, allows him to play the liberal card so that he isn't seen as too right wing but he can signal the nod to the right wing by use of the 'jokey' terms such as letterbox and bank robber, and remember this is in a piece where he was calling for grown up discussion.
It would be ideal for a threat to remove the whip to happen because he then has a justification to stand against May to protect the party. This would also lend itself to him saying that given the problems caused by simply discussing this, perhaps he had been wrong and consideration should be given to what happens with the burqa.
The irony of course is May, the prime pusher of racist policies when in the Home Office, trying to appear as the progressive here.
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I wonder if he cares that attacks on Muslims may increase because of his vile language? I guess not, it's all in the cause of Boris.
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I wonder if he cares that attacks on Muslims may increase because of his vile language? I guess not, it's all in the cause of Boris.
I don't believe he has the self-awareness to think that could happen. He is Boris, and Boris is right; people who may be violent to Muslims are Other People.
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And I read that it's women who are mainly attacked, presumably because they are recognizable if they are wearing headscarves.
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And I read that it's women who are mainly attacked, presumably because they are recognizable if they are wearing headscarves.
And the kind of people who attack Muslim women probably don't like women much anyway. It's not simply a justification to attack Muslims, it is at least as much a justification to attack women.
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What an absolute creep to attack women in this way, and use dehumanizing language. Tommy Robinson eat your heart out. I suppose it will please the Tory heartlands.
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What an absolute creep to attack women in this way, and use dehumanizing language. Tommy Robinson eat your heart out. I suppose it will please the Tory heartlands.
While dressing it up to look like he’s trying to protect woman from coercion.
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Javid is likely to stand in the next Tory leadership contest, Johnson is blowing the whistle to get the public to the pro/anti Muslim starting line.
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Helmets serve a legitimate purpose though - and though you may never have encountered it, there's a libertarian argument that people should not be legally compelled to wear them (likewise seatbelts).
As in the aforementioned discussion, some people other themselves.
Balaclavas then. Of course Ive come across it. Even read some Ayn Rand. As to othering themselves, funny it comes up in the conversation about Muslims, but not if you talk about skinheads, or racists or the neo right. Oh yes we are truly in a time of redfinitions of lots of things. And its working.
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A group of young people who chose to 'other' themselves. One sadly no longer with us.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40628457
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As to othering themselves, funny it comes up in the conversation about Muslims, but not if you talk about skinheads, or racists or the neo right. Oh yes we are truly in a time of redfinitions of lots of things. And its working.
As to people othering themselves, it was precisely the right I was thinking of in connection with the other thread - Tory MPs who are landlords but vote against legislation to ensure a minimum standard of habitation for tenants; those who claim tens of thousands in expenses but vote for benefits cuts for the disabled. And so on. They are certainly 'other' to me.
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He might behave like a clown....but he knows exactly what he's doing, and he probably had every intention of being 'Boris' in his column.
I agree the guy is far from stupid, even if the way he behaves gives that impression.
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It's all panning out perfectly for Johnson. The demands for apologies, the ease with which they can be used to show himself as the victim, somehow being denied free speech while being paid £000,000s to speak. The telegraph using reports on his columns, latest today on housing, as front page news. A piece in the Spectator from Rod Liddle which asked for more Islamophobia in the Tory party - imagine if someone had asked for more anti-Semitism in the Labour Party!
He is a dangerous person, and the schtick of the 'buffoonery' is just one of the tactics
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It's all panning out perfectly for Johnson. The demands for apologies, the ease with which they can be used to show himself as the victim, somehow being denied free speech while being paid £000,000s to speak. The telegraph using reports on his columns, latest today on housing, as front page news. A piece in the Spectator from Rod Liddle which asked for more Islamophobia in the story party - imagine if someone had asked for more anti-Semitism in the Labour Party!
He is a dangerous persin, and the schtick of the 'buffoonery' is just one of the tactics
Ditto to all that. I really, really despair of and detest politics in England at the moment.
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Why is it Islamophobic to make fun of the burqa?
Why does anybody care anymore what Boris says? He's finished politically.
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Why is it Islamophobic to make fun of the burqa?
Why does anybody care anymore what Boris says? He's finished politically.
In itself it isn't Islamophobic, though tgat doesn't preclude someobe doing it because of Islamophobia. In this case Boris was indulging in something to get attention as the edgy candidate which he has achieved. It's nice to know you think he is finished but polling indicates otherwise. Further the Telegraph's treatment of their new columnist by treating his column's as front page news show they don't see him as finished.
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I don’t think anyone seriously thinks his career is toast, surely? As for Rowan Atkinson’s intervention, he seems to fail to recognise the difference between the role of a comic and the role of a politician.
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I don’t think anyone seriously thinks his career is toast, surely? As for Rowan Atkinson’s intervention, he seems to fail to recognise the difference between the role of a comic and the role of a politician.
In itself it isn't Islamophobic, though tgat doesn't preclude someobe doing it because of Islamophobia. In this case Boris was indulging in something to get attention as the edgy candidate which he has achieved. It's nice to know you think he is finished but polling indicates otherwise. Further the Telegraph's treatment of their new columnist by treating his column's as front page news show they don't see him as finished.
I'll take these two together.
The Telegraph is promoting him because they paid a lot of money to have him write for them. They need to get a return on their investment.
Boris's political career is over because of all the backstabbing he's done and the gaffes he's made. He's soiled goods. The Tory Party will not elect him to their leadership. The first stage of the election involves the Tory MPs having a vote. That alone will stitch him up like it did last time.
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They’ll vote for who they think will keep them in government. That’s more likely to be Johnson than anyone else.
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I'll take these two together.
The Telegraph is promoting him because they paid a lot of money to have him write for them. They need to get a return on their investment.
Boris's political career is over because of all the backstabbing he's done and the gaffes he's made. He's soiled goods. The Tory Party will not elect him to their leadership. The first stage of the election involves the Tory MPs having a vote. That alone will stitch him up like it did last time.
Yes, they need a return on their investment but that doesn't mean he is finished politically so you haven't really dealt with a campaign being effectively run for him there and in addition the Spectator.
As to your second point, there is obvious dissatisfaction with May, the Tory grass roots aren 't put out by what we might see as Johnson's gaffes. He's made them throughout his political career and in the main they are deliberate to appeal to certain voters.
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They’ll vote for who they think will keep them in government. That’s more likely to be Johnson than anyone else.
You think Boris is more likely to keep the Tories in power than anybody else? I don't think that's the case and I don't think the Tory MPs think that is the case. He failed last time and that was before he'd shown how useless he is in the great offices of state and stabbed his currently leader in the back.
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Yes, they need a return on their investment but that doesn't mean he is finished politically so you haven't really dealt with a campaign being effectively run for him there and in addition the Spectator.
I made that point to counter your argument that the Telegraph thinks he's not finished because they are promoting him as front page news. The Telegraph is not campaigning for Boris, it is monetising him.
As to your second point, there is obvious dissatisfaction with May, the Tory grass roots aren 't put out by what we might see as Johnson's gaffes. He's made them throughout his political career and in the main they are deliberate to appeal to certain voters.
The grass roots don't matter if they are not given the chance to vote for him.
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You think Boris is more likely to keep the Tories in power than anybody else? I don't think that's the case and I don't think the Tory MPs think that is the case. He failed last time and that was before he'd shown how useless he is in the great offices of state and stabbed his currently leader in the back.
I think the perception that he will keep them in power might exist.
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I made that point to counter your argument that the Telegraph thinks he's not finished because they are promoting him as front page news. The Telegraph is not campaigning for Boris, it is monetising him.
The grass roots don't matter if they are not given the chance to vote for him.
And it's willing to invest and monetise him because they are happy to be seen campaigning for him. Not sure why you ignored the point about The Spectator too. The Mail is also happy to be pro Johnson and anti May.
Grass roots do matter to politicians of they think it tells them about the support they might get. Few, if any Tory MPs, will feel betrayed by Johnson. The last time was a specific issue with a specific 'supporter'. He survived all the gaffes to both become and stay Foreign Secretary. The pro hard Brexit lot of Mps will need a standard bearer, and Mogg is unlikely to stand. Johnson is carefully positioning himself as their best hope.
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And it's willing to invest and monetise him because they are happy to be seen campaigning for him.
No, because they think they will sell more newspapers.
Grass roots do matter to politicians of they think it tells them about the support they might get. Few, if any Tory MPs, will feel betrayed by Johnson. The last time was a specific issue with a specific 'supporter'. He survived all the gaffes to both become and stay Foreign Secretary. The pro hard Brexit lot of Mps will need a standard bearer, and Mogg is unlikely to stand. Johnson is carefully positioning himself as their best hope.
The pro-hard Brexit group do not have a majority of Tory MPs. Most Tory MPs want a trade deal with the EU - or even no Brexit at all. The reason the pro-hard Brexit crowd appear to have a lot of power is that there are enough of them to bring down the government. They are a vocal minority, which makes this whole Brexit fiasco even more difficult to stomach.
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No, because they think they will sell more newspapers.
The pro-hard Brexit group do not have a majority of Tory MPs. Most Tory MPs want a trade deal with the EU - or even no Brexit at all. The reason the pro-hard Brexit crowd appear to have a lot of power is that there are enough of them to bring down the government. They are a vocal minority, which makes this whole Brexit fiasco even more difficult to stomach.
You seem to be falling for a false dichotomy that it's either make money or campaign. That they are willing to invest to make money and the their last means they are already tied up in what is quite obviously Johnson's campaign.
Perhaps you are right in your opinion of what Tory MPs think, though the evidence has been that the make up of the 2017 set is significantly more to the hard Brexit than prior to that. However they seem unable to control the party, and that a leadership challenge is possible is entirely clear. Maybe Johnson won't get the numbers for it, but in current times, I don't see how you can claim anything like the certainty your posting suggests
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Rhiannon
What did Rowan Williams have to say about Boris Johnson's article? I've googled but can't find anything.
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Rhiannon
What did Rowan Williams have to say about Boris Johnson's article? I've googled but can't find anything.
It's Rowan Atkinson, not Williams. He argued that it's ok to make jokes about religion and that Johnson 's comparison of the burqa to a letterbox was a good joke.
As an aside, I have to admit the the concentration in the letterbox comment as opposed to the bank robber comment by those arguing against Johnson has seemed odd to me.
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I think normally, Johnson would be finished, not because of his Muslim bank robber comments, but his numerous gaffes. But the the context of Brexit changes things. It's possible that right wing politicians could use racism and xenophobia, to foment a poisonous English nationalism and white racism, which would erase normal politics. I'm not saying this will happen, but Brexit is a Pandora's box, especially in the case of a crash out, when scapegoats will be required, and betrayal will be in the air, think Dolchstosslegende., (stab in the back for Germans after WW1).
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It's Rowan Atkinson, not Williams. He argued that it's ok to make jokes about religion and that Johnson 's comparison of the burqa to a letterbox was a good joke.
As an aside, I have to admit the the concentration in the letterbox comment as opposed to the bank robber comment by those arguing against Johnson has seemed odd to me.
Did I get it wrong? That's so funny. ;D
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I think normally, Johnson would be finished, not because of his Muslim bank robber comments, but his numerous gaffes. But the the context of Brexit changes things. It's possible that right wing politicians could use racism and xenophobia, to foment a poisonous English nationalism and white racism, which would erase normal politics. I'm not saying this will happen, but Brexit is a Pandora's box, especially in the case of a crash out, when scapegoats will be required, and betrayal will be in the air, think Dolchstosslegende., (stab in the back for Germans after WW1).
The gaffes have a long history - 'watermelon smiles'? Johnson makes them deliberately to harm back to empire. He's made his career in the gaffes, not despite of them.
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The gaffes have a long history - 'watermelon smiles'? Johnson makes them deliberately to harm back to empire. He's made his career in the gaffes, not despite of them.
Yes, good point. I think the stuff about Brexit still stands. I suppose Powell was marginalized, but these are different times, when white racism could find fertile soil, and the hunt for traitors has already started. And we don't need Jewish scapegoats, we've got Muslims.
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In itself it isn't Islamophobic, though tgat doesn't preclude someobe doing it because of Islamophobia. In this case Boris was indulging in something to get attention as the edgy candidate which he has achieved. It's nice to know you think he is finished but polling indicates otherwise. Further the Telegraph's treatment of their new columnist by treating his column's as front page news show they don't see him as finished.
No, I don't think it's Islamophobic, but Boris' comment has everything to do with his political ambitions as has been already noted. I personally agree with his sentiments on this ridiculous tribal garb (as noted in the opening post here), but loathe his motives and his devious political machinations.
I note that the liberal imam Taj Hargey* - regularly seen on Sunday TV discussion programmes - has approved of the sentiments Boris expressed, saying that this tribal dress has nothing to do with the relevance of Islam to the modern world, and indeed detracts from it. And of course, wearing it and having politicians comment on it plays into the hands into the hands of extreme nationalists and racists.
For those who wear it - just for the record - the Koran has nothing to say on the matter, apart from vague references to modesty of dress, the wives of the prophet speaking to the public from behind a curtain, and even vaguer references to 'lowering the hem of garments'. If God had wanted women in general to cover their faces, he should have had no trouble in saying so precisely. That's by the by.
*https://www.thetimes.co.uk/.../taj-hargey-interview-the-burka-is-a-fifth-column-we-will-...
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But Johnson was simultaneously opposing a ban on veils, while using dehumanizing language about women. Quite clever really, liberal and bigoted.
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No, I don't think it's Islamophobic, but Boris' comment has everything to do with his political ambitions as has been already noted. I personally agree with his sentiments on this ridiculous tribal garb (as noted in the opening post here), but loathe his motives and his devious political machinations.
I note that the liberal imam Taj Hargey* - regularly seen on Sunday TV discussion programmes - has approved of the sentiments Boris expressed, saying that this tribal dress has nothing to do with the relevance of Islam to the modern world, and indeed detracts from it. And of course, wearing it and having politicians comment on it plays into the hands into the hands of extreme nationalists and racists.
For those who wear it - just for the record - the Koran has nothing to say on the matter, apart from vague references to modesty of dress, the wives of the prophet speaking to the public from behind a curtain, and even vaguer references to 'lowering the hem of garments'. If God had wanted women in general to cover their faces, he should have had no trouble in saying so precisely. That's by the by.
*https://www.thetimes.co.uk/.../taj-hargey-interview-the-burka-is-a-fifth-column-we-will-...
I have huge issues with the burqa but given his sentiments cover, in theory, the bank robber comparison then I don't agree with those sentiments. It attacks the people wearing it, not the issues that might force them to wear it. It's not Islamophobic but it is willing to play with it to put those women wearing it in danger. So those sentiments I have no trucking fuck with
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I have to admit that I am somewhat conflicted by the consequences of Mr Johnson's latest characterisation of "islamic dress".
In the first place, anything which restricts the progress of this fatuous, self-important, bloated nonentity on its self-appointed journey to 10 Downing Street has my approval, but I am disappointed to observe that it appears to be some form of political correctness that is currently being used.
My view is that everyone has the right to hold any religious belief they wish and that right is absolute. But it is also my view that believers do not have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone else. There is little that is "islamic" about the grossly enveloping and de-humanising garments that are forced upon adult (and sometimes child) female adherents of islam. They are most likely remnants of earlier tribal times where women were considered to be possessions with values equivalent to those of well-kept camels. That women should choose to wear such garments is one thing - but there remains the possibility that they either have no choice in the matter or have been brainwashed in a patriarchal environment into doing so.
The idea that religious practices and beliefs may not be questioned is inimical in a civilised, secular society. It is up to believers to justify their beliefs not to expect society to protect them. Boris Johnson has expressed a valid opinion in an open society on the behaviour of some citizens. He should not be penalised for this. I note that Baroness Warsi does not go around dressed in a bell tent.
I agree that religions should be criticised freely, but burkas and niqabs, both of which conceal the face, are not Islamic religious requirements, unlike the hijab, the standard headscarf, which is. https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241
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Of course, women wearing the veil are now being attacked in the street. Just part of the rough and tumble of English life, eh?
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I have to say that there is black humour in those who say that Muslim women are being forced to wear the veil, so we will force you not to! Good stuff.
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Johnson now favourite to be next leader of Tories, and next PM.
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And Johnson's avoidance of voting about Heathrow to avoid appearing a liar, wasn't cheap for us
https://theferret.scot/boris-johnson-afghan-trip-20000/
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My disquiet about Boris Johnson is exemplified by detention, in an Iranian prison of a British citizen (and mother). Johnson's own lack of attention to detail is part of the reason for the continuation of her detention.
Do we really desire such a slipshod oaf to be the United Kindom's chief executive officer?
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Johnson has trouble qualifying as a prime minister's arsehole...Let alone prime minister
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Johnson now favourite to be next leader of Tories, and next PM.
That's the end of the Tories then.
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Farridge is back but will he divert support away from EmBorisment?
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My disquiet about Boris Johnson is exemplified by detention, in an Iranian prison of a British citizen (and mother). Johnson's own lack of attention to detail is part of the reason for the continuation of her detention.
Do we really desire such a slipshod oaf to be the United Kindom's chief executive officer?
Sad this has happened.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45315979