Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Literature, Music, Art & Entertainment => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on August 13, 2018, 05:18:19 PM
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Problem or not? Seems to me that unlike black actors precluded from white roles, or indeed make vs female roles, there has not been a restriction on gay actors playing straight roles so the idea of speaking to power here is very different
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/aug/13/jack-whitehall-role-gay-disney-character-row-jungle-cruise
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My suspicion is that Disney won't cast someone who is actually really gay. A bit like Eric McCormack.
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My suspicion is that Disney won't cast someone who is actually really gay. A bit like Eric McCormack.
This becomes a hugely complex double bluff then as gay actors get cast in straight roles all the time. I don't have any evidence that the Will role was cast to stop someone being gay in it, do you?
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This becomes a hugely complex double bluff then as gay actors get cast in straight roles all the time. I don't have any evidence that the Will role was cast to stop someone being gay in it, do you?
I know that was what was being said at the time. In an ideal world it wouldn't matter.
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I know that was what was being said at the time. In an ideal world it wouldn't matter.
John Barrowman tells the story he was turned down for coming across too straight. I just think there is a difference about a minority who aren't excluded from majority roles
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John Barrowman tells the story he was turned down for coming across too straight. I just think there is a difference about a minority who aren't excluded from majority roles
But the reason that there is such a thing as 'majority roles' is because for so long there was no gay representation in terms of parts available. I have no answer to this but given that it's now acceptable to have gay characters, is it acceptable that they aren't played by gay actors?
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But the reason that there is such a thing as 'majority roles' is because for so long there was no gay representation in terms of parts available. I have no answer to this but given that it's now acceptable to have gay characters, is it acceptable that they aren't played by gay actors?
Again there is a big difference to a situation where a lack of gay roles didn't stop gay actors working, and one where there was a lack of black/female roles which did reduce their chances of working.
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Again there is a big difference to a situation where a lack of gay roles didn't stop gay actors working, and one where there was a lack of black/female roles which did reduce their chances of working.
But was it ok for gay people to have to play straight people because it was that or not work?
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But was it ok for gay people to have to play straight people because it was that or not work?
'Have to play straight people'? Are you suggesting that it was some imposition? If so, how close does the character you play have to be to the individual so as not to be an imposition?
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Isn't acting about pretending you are someone/something that you are not?
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Isn't acting about pretending you are someone/something that you are not?
I think though that the idea of having actors blacking up to play Othello was problematic when black actors had few roles to play, so it's not a complete out to talk about playing what you are not.
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I seem to recall (though I did not see it) that when the National Theatre did Carousel - perhaps 20 years ago - the part of Mr Snow was played by a black actor. And Entwhistle, in Last of the Summer Wine, was played by Burk Kwock, admittedly an Englishman but of Chinese parentage. We have also seen the development of women playing Shakespearian male roles.
Othello is not necessarily a "black up" part. Othello is a moor and consequently could be almost any skin shade. Perhaps we shall soon see demands that Hamlet can only be played by people from Denmark.
Sierra Boggess - a wonderful performer - refused to play Maria in the Proms production of West Side Story, saying the role should go to a Latino. I hadn't realised that Spanish people who migrated to Central America were of a different ethnic type from those who remained in Spain.
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This seems to miss the point. There was a time when effectively the only roles black actors could play were specifically written as black characters, and given the small number of those, that some that might be construed as black characters, and the fact that actors blacked up to play Othello shows that it was one, were more likely to go to blacked up actors is even more problematic.
Again women suffered from a lack of rokes, and given the originals in Shakespeare were not played by women, a bit of readjustment now causes me no problems.
Both of those seem very different to the question of sexuality where there doesn't seem to be a restriction for gay actors.
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Your point about lack of roles is entirely valid - and in respect of this I accept your mild admonishment. However, my suspicion now is that political correctness is also having some effect.
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Your point about lack of roles is entirely valid - and in respect of this I accept your mild admonishment. However, my suspicion now is that political correctness is also having some effect.
I think we are agreeing in at least some scale on the last part. I am not convinced there is an issue for gay actors here. I think there are issues about transgender roles but I would hope we could move to that not being important.
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But the reason that there is such a thing as 'majority roles' is because for so long there was no gay representation in terms of parts available. I have no answer to this but given that it's now acceptable to have gay characters, is it acceptable that they aren't played by gay actors?
The whole point of acting is to pretend you are something you are not. Of course it’s acceptable for straight people to play gay characters and vice versa. Also, women can play men and men can play women as long as they are good enough to carry it off.
So yes, it is acceptable for a gay role to be taken by somebody who is not gay. Of course it is.
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The whole point of acting is to pretend you are something you are not. Of course it’s acceptable for straight people to play gay characters and vice versa. Also, women can play men and men can play women as long as they are good enough to carry it off.
So yes, it is acceptable for a gay role to be taken by somebody who is not gay. Of course it is.
And while I agree with much of that, if women in general have led roles to play, then having men play them is more of an issue? Just as if there are few black roles, having white actors play the black roles is an issue?
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And while I agree with much of that, if women in general have led roles to play, then having men play them is more of an issue? Just as if there are few black roles, having white actors play the black roles is an issue?
As far as female roles are concerned, a female actor has an inherent advantage over a male actor when it comes to auditioning. The problem is surely that there are not enough good leading female roles being written to begin with.
When it comes to the black-white thing, I would argue that the inherent racism comes when a role has no specific skin colour tied to it and yet it is assumed that the character is white. For example, last week, I saw Mission Impossible Fall Out. All of the main characters are played by white actors except Luther Stickell and Erika Sloane, but there's no reason why they needed to be.
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Othello is not necessarily a "black up" part. Othello is a moor and consequently could be almost any skin shade. Perhaps we shall soon see demands that Hamlet can only be played by people from Denmark.
This is not true. The character of Othello has to be black and everybody else in the play has to be white. It's central to Iago's scheme to destroy Othello:
Your heart is burst, you have lost half your soul.
Even now, now, very now, an old black ram
Is tupping your white ewe.
That was Iago conjuring up a vulgar image of Brabanzio's daughter - Desdemona - having sex with Othello. Hre's using a racist image to drive a wedge between Brabanzio and his son in law.
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As far as female roles are concerned, a female actor has an inherent advantage over a male actor when it comes to auditioning. The problem is surely that there are not enough good leading female roles being written to begin with.
When it comes to the black-white thing, I would argue that the inherent racism comes when a role has no specific skin colour tied to it and yet it is assumed that the character is white. For example, last week, I saw Mission Impossible Fall Out. All of the main characters are played by white actors except Luther Stickell and Erika Sloane, but there's no reason why they needed to be.
So if there aren't any where enough near good enough female roles, is that not an issue?
As to bkack/white that was my point. It's not an issue for white actors to get a role for being white. There are %wise few roles assumed to black, yet most roles are case as whites even if that is questiinabkdy, see Othello.
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This is not true. The character of Othello has to be black and everybody else in the play has to be white. It's central to Iago's scheme to destroy Othello:
That was Iago conjuring up a vulgar image of Brabanzio's daughter - Desdemona - having sex with Othello. Hre's using a racist image to drive a wedge between Brabanzio and his son in law.
Applause!
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My tuppenceworth. Gay people have a lot more experience playing straight in real life anyway. So gay actors I suspect can make a decent job of playing straight. Maybe more difficult the other way around. Although I don't think it can be that difficult - Guy Pearce was very good in Priscilla QOTD. But Rock Hudson had a career built on seducing women. They are actors, darlings - it's all make believe anyway.
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My tuppenceworth. Gay people have a lot more experience playing straight in real life anyway. So gay actors I suspect can make a decent job of playing straight. Maybe more difficult the other way around. Although I don't think it can be that difficult - Guy Pearce was very good in Priscilla QOTD. But Rock Hudson had a career built on seducing women. They are actors, darlings - it's all make believe anyway.
But gay actors are not stopped from playing characters. It's very different from what has happened for women and blacks where there are so few roles you can play.
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But gay actors are not stopped from playing characters. It's very different from what has happened for women and blacks where there are so few roles you can play.
YEs but that is just the age old bias towards white males. Nowt to do with being gay as such.
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YEs but that is just the age old bias towards white males. Nowt to do with being gay as such.
Exactamundo.
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Did I see some suggestion a few days ago that the next James Bond could be black?
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Did I see some suggestion a few days ago that the next James Bond could be black?
You did. Idris Elba. And?
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What do you mean ... "and" ... ?
Was this not a perfectly reasonable observation to make in view of the subject of this thread? Or were you looking for an argument?
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A point of view.
https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2018/08/jack-whitehall-disney-straight-actor-first-gay-character-problem
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What do you mean ... "and" ... ?
Was this not a perfectly reasonable observation to make in view of the subject of this thread? Or were you looking for an argument?
I wondered what point you were making. I am still not sure.
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So if there aren't any where enough near good enough female roles, is that not an issue?
Of course it is. In fact it is the real issue in respect of women getting good parts in plays and movies. Apologies if that didn't come through in my previous post.
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Applause!
Othello was one of our O level texts in Eng. Lit. Our English teacher had great fun in explaining to us what the line I quoted meant, since IIRC none of knew the verb "to tup".
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Of course it is. In fact it is the real issue in respect of women getting good parts in plays and movies. Apologies if that didn't come through in my previous post.
No problem. Thank you for the clarification.
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Did I see some suggestion a few days ago that the next James Bond could be black?
That's an interesting case. For me, the character of James Bond is white English upper class. A lot of his backstory is predicated on that. A black super spy working for British intelligence would be a different character and the only reason to call that character "James Bond" is box office. I'm not saying it wouldn't work and, to be honest, the existing formula tried my patience a bit in the last two films - I'd definitely pay to see Idris Elba as Bond.
Well, I'd pay to see anybody good as Bond. For some reason Scarlet Johansson as "Jane Bond" just popped into my head.
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Othello was one of our O level texts in Eng. Lit. Our English teacher had great fun in explaining to us what the line I quoted meant, since IIRC none of knew the verb "to tup".
Now I realise just how much of an in-the-sticks dweller I really am.
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That's an interesting case. For me, the character of James Bond is white English upper class. A lot of his backstory is predicated on that. A black super spy working for British intelligence would be a different character and the only reason to call that character "James Bond" is box office. I'm not saying it wouldn't work and, to be honest, the existing formula tried my patience a bit in the last two films - I'd definitely pay to see Idris Elba as Bond.
Well, I'd pay to see anybody good as Bond. For some reason Scarlet Johansson as "Jane Bond" just popped into my head.
And I'm thinking of Ace Rimmer.
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That's an interesting case. For me, the character of James Bond is white English upper class. A lot of his backstory is predicated on that. A black super spy working for British intelligence would be a different character and the only reason to call that character "James Bond" is box office. I'm not saying it wouldn't work and, to be honest, the existing formula tried my patience a bit in the last two films - I'd definitely pay to see Idris Elba as Bond.
Well, I'd pay to see anybody good as Bond. For some reason Scarlet Johansson as "Jane Bond" just popped into my head.
Gillian Anderson suggested herself for the role. I get what you say about the character, though that seems about the books rather than the films, and the upper class bit went when they cast Connery. I think the films have almost no back story for Bond.
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Now I realise just how much of an in-the-sticks dweller I really am.
It's odd, isn't it? I don't think I knew the word when I did Othello either though I can't be sure, but certainly some people in my class would have when we studied it, because they came from more rural backgrounds. It's always sounded Yorkshire in my head.
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A point of view.
https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2018/08/jack-whitehall-disney-straight-actor-first-gay-character-problem
Some interesting points, not quite sure I understand the take on Neil Patrick Harris and Russell Tovey.
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It's odd, isn't it? I don't think I knew the word when I did Othello either though I can't be sure, but certainly some people in my cla s would have when we studied it, because they came from more rural backgrounds. It's always sounded Yorkshire in my head.
I don't even live in sheep country, it's arable here. I think it must have something to do with what I read as a consequence of living in the country. I even know why ewes have coloured bottoms.
https://www.thenaturalfibre.co.uk/blog/time-tup
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Some interesting points, not quite sure I understand the take on Neil Patrick Harris and Russell Tovey.
No, I don't agree with all of it. I think though that I can understand how a group that feel marginalised in society (even if that isn't reflected in the film world in the same way) must feel about seeing a big first played by a straight guy. Like there are no gay actors who could play that part.
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No, I don't agree with all of it. I think though that I can understand how a group that feel marginalised in society (even if that isn't reflected in the film world in the same way) must feel about seeing a big first played by a straight guy. Like there are no gay actors who could play that part.
I hadn't even thought of the sexuality of the actors in Call Me By Your Name, though I don't see a problem in the clauses asked for. And again, I hadn't considered if any openly gay actors had won Oscars. It makes valid points that even in a relatively accepting area of work, there is still miles to go.
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I think the films have almost no back story for Bond.
The only one I can think of is Skyfall.
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The only one I can think of is Skyfall.
Good point, just made me realise that's one of the reasons I find it problematic. My film idea of Bond is that he sprung out of M's mind, rather like Athena and Zeus, with less axe.
My book Bond is very different.
To pull it back to thread, what about a gay Bond?
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Just found this.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/14/maurice-film-merchant-ivory-gay-love-relationships
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First saw Maurice in a double bill wiih My Beautiful Launderette
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Gillian Anderson suggested herself for the role. I get what you say about the character, though that seems about the books rather than the films, and the upper class bit went when they cast Connery. I think the films have almost no back story for Bond.
Skyfall and Spectre are all about Bond's backstory.
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Skyfall and Spectre are all about Bond's backstory.
Out of how many films?