Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Keith Maitland on August 22, 2018, 04:05:45 AM

Title: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Keith Maitland on August 22, 2018, 04:05:45 AM
"Rampant pessimism underlies diseases of anxiety and depression. While there is no known cause (or cure) for such an outlook on life, researchers from MIT and Kyoto University decided to investigate whether a specific brain region can be implicated in fomenting pessimism. They believe they might have found it"


https://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/is-there-a-cure-for-pessimism
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 22, 2018, 07:40:18 AM
A cure for pessimism? What would be the point?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 22, 2018, 07:51:24 AM
What the feck is 'rampant pessimism'? And in what way would that 'underlie' depression? Surely logically some form of physical/mental cause underlies 'rampant pessimism' which is actually what the majority of the article argues?


It's also horribly simplistic to suggest that depressed people don't take risks, or that it holds them back career wise. Things are way more complex than that, and I suggest that the research here has been simplified and sensationalised.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 22, 2018, 07:59:49 AM
Ok, I decided to take the article seriously and read it, and I agree with NS, it's a load of old pony. What actually is 'rampant pessimism'? One feature of anxiety and depression is that you know that life can be good but you just can't access it. When it comes to personal success, I know a lot of people who have MH problems and who are high achievers. And as for risk taking..ffs. Go and read Mad Girl by Bryony Gordon for an account of how she dealt with her OCD with drugs and sex.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Steve H on August 22, 2018, 08:11:16 AM
The article seems reasonable enough to me. I think NS and Rhi are trying to find fault.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 22, 2018, 08:19:20 AM
The article seems reasonable enough to me. I think NS and Rhi are trying to find fault.

Do you have experience of anxiety and depression?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 22, 2018, 08:29:31 AM
The article seems reasonable enough to me. I think NS and Rhi are trying to find fault.
You need to work on your mentalism act.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Steve H on August 22, 2018, 08:31:33 AM
Do you have experience of anxiety and depression?
I've had a brush with reactive depression in the past.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 22, 2018, 08:34:19 AM
I've had a brush with reactive depression in the past.

So have friends of mine.

I have had both anxiety and depression (primarily the former, which sometimes comes back to bite me), and I'm not a pessimist. I've also been alongside a lot of people who have both, and OCD, both as a fellow traveller and a volunteer, and again, I've not noticed a large degree of pessimism. I have noticed risk taking (self-medicating with drugs and sex are big ones as already mentioned) and I have noticed a high proportion of high achievers (successful business people, education experts and scientists among them). Do you think the this is reflected in the article?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Steve H on August 22, 2018, 08:36:42 AM
You need to work on your mentalism act.
What on earth is that supposed to mean?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Roses on August 22, 2018, 08:38:48 AM
I have always been an anxious person, many of the photos of me as a child, going back to infancy, picture me with a worried frown. It is so much part of me I wouldn't be me if I didn't have something to worry about, however unwarranted it might be. This poem of mine states my case quite well.


Wot, Me Worry?

A worry gene is implanted in my DNA
It predisposes me to attacks of anxiety!
Each new day is greeted with a frown,
What problem will disquiet my breast today?
Will World War 3 eliminate the human race?
Or a meteor hit my house before I break my fast?
The news bulletin provides an endless worry opportunity.
Earthquakes, floods, interminable bad news items
To add to my already overfull lexicon of cares.
I find a lump in my bra, PANIC, OH GOLLY GOSH!
Relief as the large crumb of toast is revealed!
The day rolls on, no major disasters to report,
Then why is my face still puckered with concern?
I am worried because I have nothing to worry about!!!!!!!!!!!

RJG
[/b]
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 22, 2018, 08:40:14 AM
What on earth is that supposed to mean?
That your attempt at mindreading about other people's motivations isn't hugely impressive.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Steve H on August 22, 2018, 08:43:02 AM
That your attempt at mindreading about other people's motivations isn't hugely impressive.
If I think that the article is reasonable, but you pick holes in it, it's reasonable to assume that you're trying to find fault.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 22, 2018, 08:45:06 AM
If I think that the article is reasonable, but you pick holes in it, it's reasonable to assume that you're trying to find fault.
No, people disagreeing with something are more likely to just be disagreeing with it.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Steve H on August 22, 2018, 08:46:37 AM
Do you pick arguments with yourself when there's no-one else around?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 22, 2018, 08:47:44 AM
If I think that the article is reasonable, but you pick holes in it, it's reasonable to assume that you're trying to find fault.

I actually like articles that go some way to explaining the topics under discussion. I want to understand. This is full of lazy generalisations. And wtf is 'rampant pessimism'? That alone is just made-up shit.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 22, 2018, 08:48:47 AM
Do you pick arguments with yourself when there's no-one else around?
I disagree with the article, why is that problematic for you?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 22, 2018, 08:49:18 AM
If I think that the article is reasonable, but you pick holes in it, it's reasonable to assume that you're trying to find fault.

No, it means that NS and I don't agree with it and see it differently from you.

Do you think that every time someone disagrees with something they just want to 'pick holes' in it? Are no other opinions allowed?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Roses on August 22, 2018, 09:17:34 AM
Do you pick arguments with yourself when there's no-one else around?

I do, I am always telling myself what a daft old bat I am. ;D
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Robbie on August 22, 2018, 12:51:35 PM
I thought mentalism referred to magic, psychics and that sort of thing.

Rampant pessimism is an extreme term. However people who take a lot of knocks (despite trying to think positively and believing 'this time it will be different'), will become pessimistic and if they're depressed & anxious the pessimism will feed the depression & anxiety. It becomes a cycle.They no longer believe in themselves which is demoralising. I'm not sure calling it 'rampant pessimism' is helpful but sort of get what the writer is saying. It means fear.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 22, 2018, 12:57:09 PM
I thought mentalism referred to magic, psychics and that sort of thing.

Rampant pessimism is an extreme term. However people who take a lot of knocks (despite trying to think positively and believing 'this time it will be different'), will become pessimistic and if they're depressed & anxious the pessimism will feed the depression & anxiety. It becomes a cycle.They no longer believe in themselves which is demoralising. I'm not sure calling it 'rampant pessimism' is helpful but sort of get what the writer is saying. It means fear.
But that isn't what depression is for many people so to portray that is as Rhiannon has pointed out a lazy generalisation. Plenty of people who are depressed don't have a lot of hard knocks. Furtherthe article doesn't even say that it is about hard knocks but part of the brain.

Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Robbie on August 22, 2018, 01:02:18 PM
Oh yes NS I agree with you there. Many forms of depression& anxiety (I have experience). Presumably the writer was concentrating on one particular type. Might have been helpful if he/she had said as much. Gottago back to work, laters.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 22, 2018, 01:05:32 PM
I thought mentalism referred to magic, psychics and that sort of thing.

Rampant pessimism is an extreme term. However people who take a lot of knocks (despite trying to think positively and believing 'this time it will be different'), will become pessimistic and if they're depressed & anxious the pessimism will feed the depression & anxiety. It becomes a cycle.They no longer believe in themselves which is demoralising. I'm not sure calling it 'rampant pessimism' is helpful but sort of get what the writer is saying. It means fear.

That sounds to me to be a description of someone who has had a tough time, not someone who has depression or anxiety. In fact a common thing that depressives hear is 'what do you have to be miserable about?" IIRC that was John Gregory's response to Stan Collymore.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 22, 2018, 01:08:42 PM
Oh yes NS I agree with you there. Many forms of depression& anxiety (I have experience). Presumably the writer was concentrating on one particular type. Might have been helpful if he/she had said as much. Gottago back to work, laters.
That doesn't make much sense either since it is written to suggest that the 'rampant pessimism' is somehow the cause of the depression rather than a symptom as you have described it, and which makes more sense, Also the rest of the article itself doesn't really tie up with the idea that 'rampant pessimism' is a cause, and further it sensationalises the idea of a 'cure' at this stage.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 22, 2018, 01:11:37 PM
I'm not sure that it's especially helpful to link the 'glass half full' mentality with not having depression or anxiety either.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Robbie on August 22, 2018, 11:21:02 PM
I thought the article was very superficial. Probably not very helpful to anyone clinically depressed and anxious, can imagine them saying, "You've no idea!".
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 22, 2018, 11:27:08 PM
I thought the article was very superficial. Probably not very helpful to anyone clinically depressed and anxious, can imagine them saying, "You've no idea!".
It isn't a question of it being unhelpful to anyone who might have a version of depression or anxiety not covered by the article. It's just simplistic, sensationalized, and badly written.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Dicky Underpants on August 23, 2018, 03:29:54 PM
That sounds to me to be a description of someone who has had a tough time, not someone who has depression or anxiety. In fact a common thing that depressives hear is 'what do you have to be miserable about?" IIRC that was John Gregory's response to Stan Collymore.

But aren't there two types of depression - one of which Steve mentioned (reactive depression)?  The other posh name for the latter would be exogenous depression, and the type to which you're referring is endogenous depression. The type Steve referred to results from things happening to you (and having suffered it, I can tell you it bloody well is depression). The other type, much more difficult to deal with usually, and the type least likely to gain understanding or empathy from the general public, is the endogenous kind, since it originates within the brain itself, and appears unrelated to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune (except in itself being one of those).
Have I spelt those two greeky adjectives right?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 23, 2018, 03:46:33 PM
But aren't there two types of depression - one of which Steve mentioned (reactive depression)?  The other posh name for the latter would be exogenous depression, and the type to which you're referring is endogenous depression. The type Steve referred to results from things happening to you (and having suffered it, I can tell you it bloody well is depression). The other type, much more difficult to deal with usually, and the type least likely to gain understanding or empathy from the general public, is the endogenous kind, since it originates within the brain itself, and appears unrelated to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune (except in itself being one of those).
Have I spelt those two greeky adjectives right?
I think there are as many types of depression as there are people who are depressed. I would think that all types are in a sense endogenous in that where else are they going to orginate. The article though seems to look on something called 'rampant pessimism' as a cause, except when it doesn't, and presents an exogenous idea at the start only to then move onto endogeneous as a cause. It is a steaming pile of wombat shite.
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Shaker on August 23, 2018, 04:30:44 PM
I think there are as many types of depression as there are people who are depressed. I would think that all types are in a sense endogenous in that where else are they going to orginate.
I think if we're honest "endogenous" in terms of depression occupies the same niche in psychology and psychiatry that "idiopathic" does in medicine generally - in other words: "It just happens. Why? Search me, sunshine. Haven't a Scooby."
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Nearly Sane on August 23, 2018, 04:43:54 PM
I think if we're honest "endogenous" in terms of depression occupies the same niche in psychology and psychiatry that "idiopathic" does in medicine generally - in other words: "It just happens. Why? Search me, sunshine. Haven't a Scooby."
agree, but then the worst issue there is the use of exogenous as how would you tell?
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Rhiannon on August 23, 2018, 04:59:36 PM
But aren't there two types of depression - one of which Steve mentioned (reactive depression)?  The other posh name for the latter would be exogenous depression, and the type to which you're referring is endogenous depression. The type Steve referred to results from things happening to you (and having suffered it, I can tell you it bloody well is depression). The other type, much more difficult to deal with usually, and the type least likely to gain understanding or empathy from the general public, is the endogenous kind, since it originates within the brain itself, and appears unrelated to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune (except in itself being one of those).
Have I spelt those two greeky adjectives right?

Of course reactive depression is a thing, but that isn't what I read Robbie's description as. PTSD is also a thing, as are single point and complex trauma. Still not sure what any of this has to do with 'rampant pessimism' though
Title: Re: Is There A Cure For Pessimism?
Post by: Robbie on August 23, 2018, 08:57:21 PM
It isn't a question of it being unhelpful to anyone who might have a version of depression or anxiety not covered by the article. It's just simplistic, sensationalized, and badly written.

Wot NS said.