Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sriram on August 29, 2018, 01:46:29 PM
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Hi everyone,
A 9 year old declares himself gay, is bullied and commits suicide!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45341355
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The mother of a US nine-year-old, who she says killed himself after enduring homophobic bullying, says she "should have seen the pain in his eyes".
Leia Rochelle Pierce from Denver, Colorado, said her son, Jamel Myles, had been proud to tell people he was gay when he returned to school.
She told Victoria Derbyshire some fellow pupils told him to kill himself.
Denver Public Schools said it was committed to ensuring all pupils were treated with dignity and respect.
Ms Pierce said she blamed herself for his death, adding that her "heart was breaking every second".
"I feel responsible because I didn't see the pain in my baby's eyes. I should have just known. It's my fault, I didn't know."
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How can a 9 year old even know that he is gay, let alone declare it to his friends? How the heck did the parents allow him to even think that at his age?
Next it will be a five year old, I guess! ::)
Sriram
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A terrible tragedy! :o I was bullied throughout my time at elementary school, it was a ghastly experience!
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Based on your previous posts, this is at the age you think would be reasonable to send your child for epigenetic therapy to stop them having a disease of being homosexual, Sriram?
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Moderator Note I corrected the spelling of Suicide in the title and follow up comments.
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I am sure a similar issue arose fairly recently where a child was bullied for being gay, even though they weren't. It seems to me Sririam that you are focussing on the wrong people here. Regardless of whether you think the parents were misguided, would it not be better to concentrate on the real issue here which is bullying, rather than trying to make yet another negative point about homosexuality, which despite the years spent on this board discussing the issue has left you none the wiser.
I can assure you many children have fully realised what sexuality they are by the age of 9 or 10. At least, thats what my heterosexual friends tell me. .
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Based on your previous posts, this is at the age you think would be reasonable to send your child for epigenetic therapy to stop them having a disease of being homosexual, Sriram?
I don't want to get into an argument about homosexuality but since you mentioned epigenetics...yes indeed....epigenetics could be the cause of homosexuality. That is science.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic_theories_of_homosexuality
That issue however has nothing to do with the idea of a 9 year old declaring himself gay.
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I don't want to get into an argument about homosexuality but since you mentioned epigenetics...yes indeed....epigenetics could be the cause of homosexuality. That is science.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic_theories_of_homosexuality
That issue however has nothing to do with the idea of a 9 year old declaring himself gay.
It's a thread about homosexuality. Which you think is a treatable disease and you want to avoid discussing what effect that might have on a 9 year old who thinks they are gay...mmm
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So tell me Sririam, if a 9 year old told you they were straight (heterosexual) would you tell them its too early to know what your sexuality is or would you take it at face value?
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As Trent said, I think 9 or 10 is quite a common age to start fancying people. Homophobic OP.
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As Trent said, I think 9 or 10 is quite a common age to start fancying people. Homophobic OP.
The extraordinary thing was the total lack of condemnation of the bullying but a quick bit of blaming everyone else,
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The extraordinary thing was the total lack of condemnation of the bullying but a quick bit of blaming everyone else,
Indeed.
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What a terribly sad story!
Agree it is about bullying, not about Jamel child saying he was gay. His sister told mum that was the reason but bullies will pick on anything. So tragic that he ended his life though.
I've never before heard of a nine year old saying they are gay, at that age they do hero worship but that isn't sexual. If Jamel had lived to be thirteen he might well have found out that he was seriously heterosexual! What a waste.
Regarding epigenetics, we have discussed that before but I skim read the Wiki article. It's just a theory amongst many other theories, I wouldn't pay too much attention to it. There will be those who latch on because they have an agenda but not too many, it's far too airy fairy. Sririam posted it as he often posts things for discussion but he hasn't said he espouses it. I sincerely hope not.
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Sririam posted it as he often posts things for discussion but he hasn't said he espouses it. I sincerely hope not.
Oh yes he does.
(I'm in pantomime dame mode)
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Oh yes he does.
(I'm in pantomime dame mode)
He's behind you!
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How can a 9 year old even know that he is gay, let alone declare it to his friends?
How many gay people do you know? If it's a number greater than 0 (which I doubt), why don't you ask them when they were first aware of being gay?
How the heck did the parents allow him to even think that at his age?
Sexual orientation is something that simply exists, and isn't "allowed" by a third party ::)
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To reiterate the obvious:
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2018/08/yes-9-year-old-can-know-gay/
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How can someone ask how parents can allow their child to think something? WTF. My son, I forbid you thinking or feeling certain things. That's the way to bring up a child!
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Alright...alright! Just hold on. Homophobic? Where did that come from?! You people seem to be paranoid!!
I was just saying that a nine year old would not have even attained puberty. Even if it is a case of precocious puberty, how the heck would a child know that he is gay. At that age, it is common to mix with friends of the same sex. Many boys around that age even hate girls.
So, instead of explaining such matters to the child and waiting for him to grow up, how can parents take it for granted that the child is gay and allow him to declare it at school?
That was the point...so don't get your hackles up, for God's sake! ::)
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Alright...alright! Just hold on. Homophobic? Where did that come from?! You people seem to be paranoid!!
I was just saying that a nine year old would not have even attained puberty. Even if it is a case of precocious puberty, how the heck would a child know that he is gay.
How many gay people do you know? If it's a number greater than 0 (which I doubt), why don't you ask them when they were first aware of being gay?
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Alright...alright! Just hold on. Homophobic? Where did that come from?! You people seem to be paranoid!!
I was just saying that a nine year old would not have even attained puberty. Even if it is a case of precocious puberty, how the heck would a child know that he is gay. At that age, it is common to mix with friends of the same sex. Many boys around that age even hate girls.
So, instead of explaining such matters to the child and waiting for him to grow up, how can parents take it for granted that the child is gay and allow him to declare it at school?
That was the point...so don't get your hackles up, for God's sake! ::)
You condemned the parents and not the bullies.
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So, instead of explaining such matters to the child and waiting for him to grow up, how can parents take it for granted that the child is gay and allow him to declare it at school?
Not wishing to point out the obvious but plenty of parents take it for granted that their child is heterosexual, without talking to their child about it (and I definitely know about this from personal experience), so the parents, in this case, appear to have taken the child's feelings into account.
As Rhi says and I said earlier, you are shifting the blame and emphasis from the real issue bullying, to the parents.
It is yet another failure of society and you yourself, not seeing and holding homosexual people and heterosexual people of being intrinsically of equal value.
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Not wishing to point out the obvious but plenty of parents take it for granted that their child is heterosexual, without talking to their child about it (and I definitely know about this from personal experience), so the parents, in this case, appear to have taken the child's feelings into account.
As Rhi says and I said earlier, you are shifting the blame and emphasis from the real issue bullying, to the parents.
It is yet another failure of society and you yourself, not seeing and holding homosexual people and heterosexual people of being intrinsically of equal value.
It’s actively saying that not only are homosexual people of less value, they are somehow ‘wrong’.
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It’s actively saying that not only are homosexual people of less value, they are somehow ‘wrong’.
This individual has already made his views on being gay abundantly clear:
Alright...some people may feel that homosexuality is not...repeat not... a disease and does not need to be cured! But I tend to disagree.
https://tinyurl.com/ycemw8e5
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This individual has already made his views on being gay abundantly clear:
https://tinyurl.com/ycemw8e5
And that if a therapy were available he would take his child to be 'cured'
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10205.150
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... and homosexuality is all about 'lust':
Thousands of mothers and fathers […] see their sons/daughters struggling as homosexuals […] from a purely evolutionary and survival point of view, every person wants his/her genes to be propagated through their children. Its a natural impulse […] they see their progeny merely bedding people for lust and not for children.
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It’s because we haven’t overcome our animal nature.
Thank god. What would life be without a bit of ‘lust’?
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It’s because we haven’t overcome our animal nature.
Thank god. What would life be without a bit of ‘lust’?
Very much the poorer, in my experience.
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How can a 9 year old even know that he is gay, let alone declare it to his friends? How the heck did the parents allow him to even think that at his age?
OK, let's assume for the moment that he was too young to really know if he was gay or not and that he merely said so to gain attention or something.
How does that make it OK to bully him to the point he commits suicide? Why are you blaming his parents for something done by other people?
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We already know why.
It's one of those things that we don't have to guess at any more, since - conveniently - we have his own words to seal the deal.
Homosexuality is motivated by lust, and is an abnormal condition that merits "treatment."
Some people think that homosexuality isn't a disease and doesn't stand in need of treatment. With these people Sriram "tends to disagree" - therefore he tends to think that it is and it does.
It's all here, and easily searchable anyway.
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We already know why.
It's one of those things that we don't have to guess at any more, since - conveniently - we have his own words to seal the deal.
Homosexuality is motivated by lust, and is an abnormal condition that merits "treatment."
Even if you believe this, I don't understand why you think it lets the bullies off the hook.
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Even if you believe this, I don't understand why you think it lets the bullies off the hook.
I don't. Sriram ostensibly does, since his OP contained no condemnation of bullying but instead chose to point the finger at the parents for "allowing" their child to identify as gay:
How the heck did the parents allow him to even think that at his age?
Sriram is the one who said precisely zero about a child being bullied to the point of suicide and instead wondered why the parents "allowed" their child to identify as gay.
Direct your fire where it's deserved.
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OK, let's assume for the moment that he was too young to really know if he was gay or not and that he merely said so to gain attention or something.
How does that make it OK to bully him to the point he commits suicide? Why are you blaming his parents for something done by other people?
No...what the bullies did is not ok. Who said anything about that?
Its about how the problem started in the first place. If a child is trying to get attention, as you claim, why would the parents allow him to declare such things in school? Why would a prepubescent child be allowed to declare such a thing?
Bullies are bullies. Parents cannot be irresponsible!
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No...what the bullies did is not ok. Why said anything about that?
You said nothing about it. Absolutely nothing. You chose to point the finger at the parents of a child dead by suicide instead of the bullies who drove said child to suicide.
Its about how the problem started in the first place.
Homophobic bullying is how the problem of a dead child started in the first place.
Why would a prepubescent child be allowed to declare such a thing?
Why wouldn't they?
What's to stop them?
What barriers are in place?
Third time of asking and, I very strongly suspect, third time of cowardly, weaselly, slippery, slimy evasion of answering the question on your part. How many gay people do you know? If it's a number greater than 0 (which I doubt), why don't you ask them when they were first aware of being gay?
Bullies are bullies.
Congratulations on mastering the Law of Identity.
Parents cannot be irresponsible!
Were the parents of Jamel Myles irresponsible?
Were they irresponsible or were they not irresponsible?
If in your opinion they were irresponsible, exactly how were they irresponsible? In what way were they irresponsible?
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I don't. Sriram ostensibly does, since his OP contained no condemnation of bullying but instead chose to point the finger at the parents for "allowing" their child to identify as gay:
Sriram is the one who said precisely zero about a child being bullied to the point of suicide and instead wondered why the parents "allowed" their child to identify as gay.
Direct your fire where it's deserved.
My apologies. I thought I was responding to Sriram. Your names both begin with S, so it’s your fault that I got confused.
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No...what the bullies did is not ok. Who said anything about that?
You seem to be blaming the parents for what happened instead of the bullies.
Its about how the problem started in the first place. If a child is trying to get attention, as you claim
Let’s be completely clear: I do not claim the victim was trying to get attention. I merely hypothesized that as a worst case scenario and then asked if that lets the bullies off the hook. The answer to that question should be no, by the way.
, why would the parents allow him to declare such things in school? Why would a prepubescent child be allowed to declare such a thing?
How could they stop him? In the USA I understand it is not customary for parents to follow their children around all the time at school.
Bullies are bullies. Parents cannot be irresponsible!
Again, I ask, how could they have stopped him?
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You said nothing about it. Absolutely nothing. You chose to point the finger at the parents of a child dead by suicide instead of the bullies who drove said child to suicide.
Homophobic bullying is how the problem of a dead child started in the first place.
Why wouldn't they?
What's to stop them?
What barriers are in place?
Third time of asking and, I very strongly suspect, third time of cowardly, weaselly, slippery, slimy evasion of answering the question on your part. How many gay people do you know? If it's a number greater than 0 (which I doubt), why don't you ask them when they were first aware of being gay?Congratulations on mastering the Law of Identity.
Were the parents of Jamel Myles irresponsible?
Were they irresponsible or were they not irresponsible?
If in your opinion they were irresponsible, exactly how were they irresponsible? In what way were they irresponsible?
Shaker...Tut...Tut.....you are going to burst a blood vessel if you are not careful. :(
I suggest you visit a church and chant some Hail Marys or something. It'll help you calm down.
Cheers. :)
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You seem to be blaming the parents for what happened instead of the bullies.
Let’s be completely clear: I do not claim the victim was trying to get attention. I merely hypothesized that as a worst case scenario and then asked if that lets the bullies off the hook. The answer to that question should be no, by the way.How could they stop him? In the USA I understand it is not customary for parents to follow their children around all the time at school.
Again, I ask, how could they have stopped him?
I have already explained that.
It all started because a 9 year old, who is in all probability prepubescent, wanted to declare himself gay. His parents allowed him to do that.
From the report....
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"Pierce said her son, who was enrolled at Joe Shoemaker Elementary School, told her he was gay over the summer and that he wanted to come out as such to his classmates when he started school.
"He went to school and said he was gonna tell people he's gay because he's proud of himself," she said."
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Instead of explaining to him that he was too young to even know if he was gay.... and knowing fully well how school children react...the mother had no business permitting him to do any such thing.
The primary blame rests with the parent. The bullying by class mates is a subsequent matter which should have been foreseen in any case. They were children too.
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The primary blame lies with the bullies. Anything else is victim blaming. The school has a responsibility also. You can say it might have been wise for them to counsel caution from their son, and they may have done, but they are not to blame for what happened.
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The primary blame lies with the bullies. Anything else is victim blaming. The school has a responsibility also. You can say it might have been wise for them to counsel caution from their son, and they may have done, but they are not to blame for what happened.
You can blame wider society too.
Find it absolutely heartbreaking.
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You can blame wider society too.
Find it absolutely heartbreaking.
Absolutely.
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You can blame wider society too.
Find it absolutely heartbreaking.
Yep, I think people who argue that homosexuality is a disease that should be cured have some responsibility,
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Yep, I think people who argue that homosexuality is a disease that should be cured have some responsibility,
Yes, and people who think that parents shouldn't let their child be proud of who they are too.
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I don’t know what it was like in that particular school in the US but over here my experience of my 13 year old’s year group is that when she was in Primary school, from what she said, 9 year old girls sounded quite inclusive when it came to sexuality and trans issues, though children still were quite mean to each other about other stuff. It seems to have changed for the better for LGBT issues between the time my 18 year old was in Year 5 and my 13 year old was in Year 5.
When I was 9, some of the children I was at school with in London talked about boyfriends and kissing so Sriram I am not sure why you are surprised that a 9 year old in the US would talk about sexuality. The subject is very high-profile now - you would have to walk around with ear plugs and blinkers to not be aware of it. I blame the bullies.
If the 9 year old did not tell his parents or the school that he was being bullied not sure what they could have done. I think the parents of the children who were doing the bullying should have one of a series of chats with them about how bullying is wrong and to stand up for children who are being bullied or tell a teacher.
Individual children mature differently. If a child declares their identity as gay, I don’t think there is anything useful to be gained by a parent giving the impression that they need to be ashamed of that by hiding it from people, which is the impression created if you discourage them from saying anything. You are right to expect bullying and I would have talked to the child every few days about coping mechanisms and responses to bullying. I did that with both my kids, as children can be unkind.
But maybe they did talk to him before he told people at school, and maybe they did say, you are probably going to get bullied by some children who are too immature to deal with diversity - how can we deal with it if it happens? There are many issues children feel insecure about and can be bullied for. It’s impossible to safeguard children completely from their own mind and their own insecurities, especially if they won’t talk no matter how supportive a parent tries to be.
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I think it is true that kids will pick on other kids for pretty much anything. Liking soup was one when I was at school. Having red hair still seems acceptable even among adults.
So sad, this story. Poor little lad.
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While I totally agree with the majority of opinions and sentiments on this thread and condemn the bullying, and suspect that Sriram may be living in a culture whose approaches to sexuality lack the sensitivity and acceptance that most of us now take for granted.
We don't know very much of the culture of Denver, Colorado. Is it heavily Republican? Is it Trump territory? Is it Christian fundamentalist in character? Are there cultural contexts at work here also?
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While I totally agree with the majority of opinions and sentiments on this thread and condemn the bullying, and suspect that Sriram may be living in a culture whose approaches to sexuality lack the sensitivity and acceptance that most of us now take for granted.
We don't know very much of the culture of Denver, Colorado. Is it heavily Republican? Is it Trump territory? Is it Christian fundamentalist in character? Are there cultural contexts at work here also?
Colorado went for Clinton. Denver is the more Democrat area of the state.
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I have already explained that.
It all started because a 9 year old, who is in all probability prepubescent, wanted to declare himself gay. His parents allowed him to do that.
For the prevention of going around in circles, can we assume that we all know that. Please answer the questions:
1. How could his parents have stopped him from declaring he is gay?
2. Are you prepared to state for the record that the cause of the boy's suicide was the bullying?
Instead of explaining to him that he was too young to even know if he was gay.... and knowing fully well how school children react...the mother had no business permitting him to do any such thing.
Neither of us know this boy as well as his own parents did. Isn't it time you stopped blaming them and started blaming the bullies?
The primary blame rests with the parent.
No. It doesn't, it rests with the bullies.
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Shaker...Tut...Tut.....you are going to burst a blood vessel if you are not careful. :(
I suggest you visit a church and chant some Hail Marys or something. It'll help you calm down.
Cheers. :)
So instead of responding to the points raised or answering the questions put to you, you make a fatuous and inane comment.
What a surprise.
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Yep, I think people who argue that homosexuality is a disease that should be cured have some responsibility,
Like this?
some people may feel that homosexuality is not...repeat not... a disease and does not need to be cured! But I tend to disagree.
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What is this??!! You bunch think you can bully me into saying something that I don't agree with??!! ::)
I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him. The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.
Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.
A nine year old is still a child and the parents are responsible for his behavior, especially when he has told them what he plans to do.
That is my final opinion on this!
Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job! I appreciate that!
Cheers.
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The primary cause was the bullying.
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What is this??!! You bunch think you can bully me into saying something that I don't agree with??!! ::)
I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him. The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.
Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.
A nine year old is still a child and the parents are responsible for his behavior, especially when he has told them what he plans to do.
That is my final opinion on this!
Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job! I appreciate that!
Cheers.
By the Goddess - I've met some seriously stubborn buggers in my life but you really are a candidate for the Oscar in this case.
Your attitude to homosexuality, in all its multifarious guises, ranks as positively Neolithic!
You are, Sir, a disgrace to 21st Century humanity! I truly hope that you are in a minority of one!
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What is this??!! You bunch think you can bully me into saying something that I don't agree with??!! ::)
I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him. The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.
Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.
A nine year old is still a child and the parents are responsible for his behavior, especially when he has told them what he plans to do.
That is my final opinion on this!
Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job! I appreciate that!
Cheers.
Person that thinks homosexuality is a disease to be cured blamed parents for their child being bullied. And then complains about being bullied for being pulled up on their attitude.
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Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job! I appreciate that!
Cheers.
No, I don't keep track; the forum's search function does that. That's what it's there for. That's its purpose.
If you think that revealing your disgusting attitude toward homosexuality by quoting your own words is a matter for thanks, you're patently even more warped than your own comments demonstrate you to be.
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Person that thinks homosexuality is a disease to be cured blamed parents for their child being bullied. And then complains about being bullied for being pulled up on their attitude.
An irony vacuum indeed.
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Just seen on Twitter:
The people asking if a 9 year old kid can even know that he is gay should be asking how the other 9 year olds already know to bully him for coming out.
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I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him. The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.
But it's only your opinion that he is wrong to declare himself gay. Perhaps his parents disagree with you. Even if they were wrong, it's not acceptable to bully somebody, especially to the point where they commit suicide.
Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.
His suicide wouldn't.
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As a parent the most important thing is that you let your child know that he or she is loved unconditionally. Out of that comes the need to ensure, as far as you can, that your child feels no shame over who they are. Parents who fail are the ones who tell their kids to shut up, keep quiet, that they are wrong, mistaken, too young to understand. They are the ones who leave their children struggling for self-acceptance well into adulthood.
As Shaker has already alluded to, there are parents to blame here, but they aren't the parents of the boy who died.
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What is this??!! You bunch think you can bully me into saying something that I don't agree with??!! ::)
I am saying that the parents should take responsibility for their wards. Since the child had already told them what he is going to do, they should have explained and dissuaded him. The bullying is only the immediate cause of the suicide. The parents permitting him is the primary cause.
Some of you are making this out to be an issue about homosexuality. It isn't. Even if the child had wanted to strip naked in front of his class mates and had told so to his parents and they had allowed it. And if that had resulted in bullying and suicide, it would still be the responsibility of his parents.
A nine year old is still a child and the parents are responsible for his behavior, especially when he has told them what he plans to do.
That is my final opinion on this!
Shaker....you seem to keep track of all my posts from earlier years. You have done some digging up before on other subjects too. Good job! I appreciate that!
Cheers.
Ok if that's your final opinion on this.
Presumably the boy was trying to say that he felt attracted to people of the same sex. I find it strange that you think it so strange that a 9 year old could feel attracted to another person.
You make it sound like every parent should expect that their child will get bullied and will kill themselves without talking to someone or asking for help, if they were to come out as gay at school.
I would expect that there might be the odd person who would have a problem with someone else being different, or there might be someone in the class who bullies others because of their own low self-esteem, but I would not expect the situation to get so out of control that no one at the school picked up on it or the boy himself did not try confiding in an adult rather than taking his own life without saying anything.
Not sure what taking your clothes off has to do with anything - that's against school rules, whereas declaring yourself gay isn't against school rules. Is there any need to actually be gay to declare yourself gay - couldn't someone try it out as an identity for a while? Some young children currently seem to be experimenting with identifying as a different gender from their biological sex. Presumably people can similarly adopt a different racial identity, if that is who they feel they are in their heads, rather than worry about accusations of cultural appropriation.
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Ok...so you guys are really bored...and looking for an argument. Fine...I'll bite...for the last time!
If you wander into a dark alley in London at 11 pm...you can expect to get mugged...not that it is acceptable but that it is to be expected. Anyone with any maturity will know that. You can blame the muggers all you want but it is still your mistake in the first place.
Similarly, since a 9 year old is a child...its for the parents to know what to expect and to prevent it.
Why the heck would any parent tell their 9 year old child to go ahead and declare himself gay in school?! Weird! ::)
There .... Now, have fun and vent out all your frustration! ::)
The stage is all yours...!
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Ok...so you guys are really bored...and looking for an argument. Fine...I'll bite...for the last time!
If you wander into a dark alley in London at 11 pm...you can expect to get mugged...not that it is acceptable but that it is to be expected. Anyone with any maturity will know that. You can blame the muggers all you want but it is still your mistake in the first place.
Similarly, since a 9 year old is a child...its for the parents to know what to expect and to prevent it.
Why the heck would any parent tell their 9 year old child to go ahead and declare himself gay in school?! Weird! ::)
There .... Now, have fun and vent out all your frustration! ::)
The stage is all yours...!
You are UNBELIEVABLE. One should be permitted to wander down any dark ally, at any time of night, it is the muggers who are in the wrong not an innocent victim. >:(
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It's called victim blaming.
She was pissed/half-dressed/well up for it, your honour etc.
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Ok...so you guys are really bored...and looking for an argument. Fine...I'll bite...for the last time!
If you wander into a dark alley in London at 11 pm...you can expect to get mugged...not that it is acceptable but that it is to be expected. Anyone with any maturity will know that. You can blame the muggers all you want but it is still your mistake in the first place.
Similarly, since a 9 year old is a child...its for the parents to know what to expect and to prevent it.
Why the heck would any parent tell their 9 year old child to go ahead and declare himself gay in school?! Weird! ::)
There .... Now, have fun and vent out all your frustration! ::)
The stage is all yours...!
Why would a parent tell their 9 year old to not say anything and risk them feeling ashamed of being gay? Any mature, sensible parent would realise the potential psychological problems that might produce, and feel it is better that they feel accepted and moreover feel that the school and other parents would try to send the message out that bullying is not ok. I know I certainly spoke to my kids about how bullying is not ok, and moreover, not standing up for other people who are being bullied is also not ok.
Certainly in leafy suburbs of London, I would not normally expect a 9 year old to be bullied to the point where he kills himself if he did declare himself gay at school. He might face a bit of bullying as that happens to children for various reasons, but as a parent you don't expect it to end in suicide without having a clue of anything that has been going on. You usually expect that it will be flagged in school, you would get a phone call, your child would confide in you or start refusing to go to school - you would expect that something would alert you that they are going through some exceptional suffering. As I said before, I have no idea what that particular US school is like, or the kind of expectations parents have.
And your analogy about the alleyway - criminals see dark, secluded places as an opportunity to carry out a crime without getting caught. I don't think parents see schools as something similar to an alleyway. You expect schools to be something more like broad daylight with the police just round the corner.
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Ok...so you guys are really bored...and looking for an argument.
The "argument" began long ago when you vomited up your opinion that being gay is an illness that stands in need of treatment.
P.S. and N.B.: Not remembered by me, but by this forum's search function. Just so you know.
Fine...I'll bite...for the last time!
I wish; but it won't be. It wasn't your "final opinion" on August 31st at 03:27:50pm, so why would this be?
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Why would a parent tell their 9 year old to not say anything and risk them feeling ashamed of being gay? Any mature, sensible parent would realise the potential psychological problems that might produce, and feel it is better that they feel accepted and moreover feel that the school and other parents would try to send the message out that bullying is not ok. I know I certainly spoke to my kids about how bullying is not ok, and moreover, not standing up for other people who are being bullied is also not ok.
Certainly in leafy suburbs of London, I would not normally expect a 9 year old to be bullied to the point where he kills himself if he did declare himself gay at school. He might face a bit of bullying as that happens to children for various reasons, but as a parent you don't expect it to end in suicide without having a clue of anything that has been going on. You usually expect that it will be flagged in school, you would get a phone call, your child would confide in you or start refusing to go to school - you would expect that something would alert you that they are going through some exceptional suffering. As I said before, I have no idea what that particular US school is like, or the kind of expectations parents have.
And your analogy about the alleyway - criminals see dark, secluded places as an opportunity to carry out a crime without getting caught. I don't think parents see schools as something similar to an alleyway. You expect schools to be something more like broad daylight with the police just round the corner.
"You expect schools to be something more like broad daylight with the police just round the corner."
Yeah right! Then why did such things happen?
Bullying, sexual abuse by teachers, even shootings...seem to be common in schools. If we can't face realities and prepare our children accordingly, we have a problem!
You need to prepare children even to attend Church it seems....regardless of what kind of 'broad daylight' you might expect churches to be.
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Well there's so far at least two more "final opinions".
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Yeah right! Then why did such things happen?"
"The people asking if a 9 year old kid can even know that he is gay should be asking how the other 9 year olds already know to bully him for coming out."
Answer came there none.
You need to prepare children even to attend Church it seems.
Hell yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes again.
Given the hellish, life-ruining, life-destroying shit which has happened there since who knows how long*.
* Not the only offenders by any means, but the worst of the mob: ask the Catholics.
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You are UNBELIEVABLE. One should be permitted to wander down any dark ally, at any time of night, it is the muggers who are in the wrong not an innocent victim. >:(
Sriram did not say it was acceptable to mug someone wandering down an alleyway at 11pm. He said it was unacceptable. The point he made was that it was something a person could expect to happen. Do you note the difference between the word “accepted” and “expected”?
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It's called victim blaming.
She was pissed/half-dressed/well up for it, your honour etc.
Another one having trouble differentiating between words. Are you suggesting that people argue that a victim was well up for a mugging?
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Another one having trouble differentiating between words. Are you suggesting that people argue that a victim was well up for a mugging?
Me?
No.
Sriram was.
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Another one having trouble differentiating between words. Are you suggesting that people argue that a victim was well up for a mugging?
From Sriram:
You can blame the muggers all you want but it is still your mistake in the first place.
That's victim blaming.
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“Expected” means likely to happen. It doesn’t mean you want it to happen or you were up for it. It just means you recognise the risk but took the risk because different people have different appetites for risk. I was arguing against the idea that the suicide was expected.
As for mistakes, we all make mistakes, especially when it comes to judging risk. Sriram has undoubtedly made lots of mistakes that have had negative consequences- it’s part of our process of learning from our mistakes. His post is therefore irritatingly hypocritical and reflects a poor understanding of how younger parents in other cities in other countries could assess risk differently from an older man in that particular suburb of India. He has no idea of how the situation and conflicting risks appeared to those particular parents.
I certainly disagree with his nonsensical and brutal conclusion that the parents are to blame rather than the bullies. Maybe Sriram still needs to evolve hos ability to argue with compassion on this particular topic. But that could be said of me too and many others on other topics.
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No one is saying that anyone wants anything to happen. Sriram is putting the blame on victims, or their families, for behaving 'irresponsibly', when the blame lies elsewhere.
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Sriram has undoubtedly made lots of mistakes that have had negative consequences- it’s part of our process of learning from our mistakes. His post is therefore irritatingly hypocritical and reflects a poor understanding of how younger parents in other cities in other countries could assess risk differently from an older man in that particular suburb of India. He has no idea of how the situation and conflicting risks appeared to those particular parents.
I certainly disagree with his nonsensical and brutal conclusion that the parents are to blame rather than the bullies. Maybe Sriram still needs to evolve hos ability to argue with compassion on this particular topic. But that could be said of me too and many others on other topics.
Albert Schweitzer said that the Africans in Lambaréné were his brothers but that they were his younger brothers.
That seems to fit here.
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::) ::) ::)
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No one is saying that anyone wants anything to happen. Sriram is putting the blame on victims, or their families, for behaving 'irresponsibly', when the blame lies elsewhere.
The blame certainly lies with the bullies. Whether these particular parents behaved responsibly or irresponsibly or simply made a mistake or none of the above - I don’t know as there is no information to make an assessment. For example, we don’t know what discussions took place, thought processes, what they knew about previous incidents of bullying at the school or in that class. My 13 year old daughter says there is not really “bullying” at her school just some people being a bit “snakey” and no bullying around people coming out, they read books with positive gay characters, so it depends on each school and each child’s experience.
I think the parents expected some bullying but didn’t expect it to be the level it was and thought their son would come to them if he was suffering rather than not ask for help. Or they probably thought they would see signs of distress and would have time to step in and support.
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Albert Schweitzer said that the Africans in Lambaréné were his brothers but that they were his younger brothers.
That seems to fit here.
When you quoted me you left out the first sentence of my paragraph where I said we all make mistakes. That would make you the younger brother...
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The blame certainly lies with the bullies. Whether these particular parents behaved responsibly or irresponsibly or simply made a mistake or none of the above - I don’t know as there is no information to make an assessment. For example, we don’t know what discussions took place, thought processes, what they knew about previous incidents of bullying at the school or in that class. My 13 year old daughter says there is not really “bullying” at her school just some people being a bit “snakey” and no bullying around people coming out, they read books with positive gay characters, so it depends on each school and each child’s experience.
I think the parents expected some bullying but didn’t expect it to be the level it was and thought their son would come to them if he was suffering rather than not ask for help. Or they probably thought they would see signs of distress and would have time to step in and support.
I think also we have to see it through the limited understanding that a nine year old has of suicide. He may not have had the verbal skills to articulate to his parents how he felt. He may not have had the concept of how suicide is final, or the pain it causes. He may not have thought he'd succeed. It could have been the impulse of a little boy, a gesture. He may even have been influenced by stories of suicide in the media.
Such a young life. :(
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I think also we have to see it through the limited understanding that a nine year old has of suicide. He may not have had the verbal skills to articulate to his parents how he felt. He may not have had the concept of how suicide is final, or the pain it causes. He may not have thought he'd succeed. It could have been the impulse of a little boy, a gesture. He may even have been influenced by stories of suicide in the media.
Such a young life. :(
I didn't have a limited understanding of what suicide meant when contemplating it age the of ten. I had played a 'game' of, 'if you show me yours, I will show you mine', with I lad of the same age with whom I used to play. He had told the kids at the school we attended that we had sex, like as if he was capable! I was terrified my parents would find out, that would have been a fate much worse than death. ::) I decided that jumping off the outhouse roof might not kill me, and as I couldn't get onto the much higher roof of our house, I decided to leave it at that and hope for the best. My parent's never did discover my naughty secret, thank goodness.
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You are UNBELIEVABLE. One should be permitted to wander down any dark ally, at any time of night, it is the muggers who are in the wrong not an innocent victim. >:(
That's what he said. Try reading what people have written, before coming on with the synthetic indignation.
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I think also we have to see it through the limited understanding that a nine year old has of suicide. He may not have had the verbal skills to articulate to his parents how he felt. He may not have had the concept of how suicide is final, or the pain it causes. He may not have thought he'd succeed. It could have been the impulse of a little boy, a gesture. He may even have been influenced by stories of suicide in the media.
I think, if he had an understanding of what it means to be gay, we must assume that he also knew what it means to commit suicide.
I don't think that materially affects the story though. This was a tragedy caused by bullies who had acquired the view that being gay makes you fair game for brutality. If there are parents responsible for this, they are not the parents of the boy who died.
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That's what he said. Try reading what people have written, before coming on with the synthetic indignation.
He was stating someone walking down a dark ally at night could expect to be mugged, so they were at fault for doing so.
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He was stating someone walking down a dark ally at night could expect to be mugged, so they were at fault for doing so.
Because it's their "mistake", apparently.
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I think, if he had an understanding of what it means to be gay, we must assume that he also knew what it means to commit suicide.
I don't think that materially affects the story though. This was a tragedy caused by bullies who had acquired the view that being gay makes you fair game for brutality. If there are parents responsible for this, they are not the parents of the boy who died.
I think the limitation lies largely with how small the world is to a child. Bullying today feels unendurable but it is fixable. That is a perspective that kids don't always have. They can't imagine a time when they are grown and it's all gone away.
There was a terrible story a few year's back about a young boy who argued with his parents and went up to his room. They left him to cool off only to find that he'd hanged himself. No warning, no problems. Distress in the moment rather than a desire to die...I dunno.
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He was stating someone walking down a dark ally at night could expect to be mugged, so they were at fault for doing so.
He said they could blame the muggers all they want but it was the mistake of walking down the alleyway at 11pm, knowing that you could expect to be mugged, that meant you could not avoid being mugged in that alleyway. Individuals often take risks despite the probabilities and statistics, because they think they will be able to get away with it or they will be lucky and the potential bad consequences won’t happen to them.
Possibly it’s similar to leaving valuables on display rather than securely locked away. You have every right to do so, and if they were stolen the thief would be to blame, but your insurance company might not pay out on the basis that it was likely to get stolen and you have a responsibility to store it securely. Your mistake would be taken into account.
I disagree that it is to be expected that your son will kill himself if he declares himself gay at age 9.
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I think the limitation lies largely with how small the world is to a child. Bullying today feels unendurable but it is fixable. That is a perspective that kids don't always have. They can't imagine a time when they are grown and it's all gone away.
There was a terrible story a few year's back about a young boy who argued with his parents and went up to his room. They left him to cool off only to find that he'd hanged himself. No warning, no problems. Distress in the moment rather than a desire to die...I dunno.
Actually, the problem could have been building up over time. I have recent direct experience of a case where a teenager suddenly seemed to become suicidal out of the blue at least as far as the parents were concerned. The issue came to light when the person texted one of their friends that they were going to kill themselves and the friend immediately told their own parents who informed the parents of the suicidal teenager. It's a cliche but the parents are often the last to know.
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Actually, the problem could have been building up over time. I have recent direct experience of a case where a teenager suddenly seemed to become suicidal out of the blue at least as far as the parents were concerned. The issue came to light when the person texted one of their friends that they were going to kill themselves and the friend immediately told their own parents who informed the parents of the suicidal teenager. It's a cliche but the parents are often the last to know.
It's possible. Each case is individual. It's scary for me as a parent. I do have a good relationship with my kids and we talk a lot, but even so.
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Individuals often take risks despite the probabilities and statistics,
The probability of walking down a dark alleyway and getting mugged in the UK is quite low. If you were 100% guaranteed to get mugged, or even 10%, people would never do it and dark alleyways would not be permitted to exist.
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It's possible. Each case is individual. It's scary for me as a parent. I do have a good relationship with my kids and we talk a lot, but even so.
That's what was so scary about the case I mentioned. The parents would have said the same before they found out that they had a child who was suffering from issues that made them suicidal.
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That's what was so scary about the case I mentioned. The parents would have said the same before they found out that they had a child who was suffering from issues that made them suicidal.
We are open about MH and talk about it. I've had to deal with it. Getting off topic, but even if you spot it the support is woeful. I got given a card with a website on it.
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The probability of walking down a dark alleyway and getting mugged in the UK is quite low. If you were 100% guaranteed to get mugged, or even 10%, people would never do it and dark alleyways would not be permitted to exist.
The probabilities depend on the individual and the location of the alleyway. And certain people don’t walk down many dark alleyways at 11pm precisely because they think there is a high probability of getting mugged. If you looked like Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson you would probably think there was a far lower probability of being mugged.
I definitely disagree with the other part of your reasoning. Dark alleyways and any other dangerous, crime-ridden spots exist because of lack of resources to prevent crime and anti-social behaviour. People just don’t think about the risks or accept the risk and hope they can take sufficient measures to mitigate it or hope they will be lucky and it won’t happen to them.
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He said they could blame the muggers all they want but it was the mistake of walking down the alleyway at 11pm, knowing that you could expect to be mugged, that meant you could not avoid being mugged in that alleyway. Individuals often take risks despite the probabilities and statistics, because they think they will be able to get away with it or they will be lucky and the potential bad consequences won’t happen to them.
Possibly it’s similar to leaving valuables on display rather than securely locked away. You have every right to do so, and if they were stolen the thief would be to blame, but your insurance company might not pay out on the basis that it was likely to get stolen and you have a responsibility to store it securely. Your mistake would be taken into account.
I disagree that it is to be expected that your son will kill himself if he declares himself gay at age 9.
Finally...a word I can agree with......... 'Responsibility'.
Nice!
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The probabilities depend on the individual and the location of the alleyway. And certain people don’t walk down many dark alleyways at 11pm precisely because they think there is a high probability of getting mugged. If you looked like Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson you would probably think there was a far lower probability of being mugged.
Define "high probability". What percentage of people walking down dark alleyways at night get mugged?
I definitely disagree with the other part of your reasoning. Dark alleyways and any other dangerous, crime-ridden spots exist because of lack of resources to prevent crime and anti-social behaviour. People just don’t think about the risks or accept the risk and hope they can take sufficient measures to mitigate it or hope they will be lucky and it won’t happen to them.
But a dark alleyway where everybody gets mugged would soon be identified and targeted by the law authorities.
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Actually, the problem could have been building up over time. I have recent direct experience of a case where a teenager suddenly seemed to become suicidal out of the blue at least as far as the parents were concerned. The issue came to light when the person texted one of their friends that they were going to kill themselves and the friend immediately told their own parents who informed the parents of the suicidal teenager. It's a cliche but the parents are often the last to know.
My 13 year old was in a similar situation. I think she was 12 at the time. We were at a family event and she was constantly on her phone and quite snappy when I told her to stop being anti-social. She only told me later that her friend had texted to say she was depressed and then that she was going to kill herself and stopped texting. My daughter got really worried and texted her friend’s mother to alert her. I got a call from the mother a few days later, who told me measures had been put in place to stop the friend’s tendency to isolate herself and that her daughter was getting some counselling and her smart phone had been confiscated and replaced with a non-smart phone. The mother told me she had read the messages on her daughter’s phone and that I should do the same as some of the conversations between our two daughters were quite intense in talking about depression and it was probably better if they took a step back from their friendship rather than indulge in the dark conversations.
It turned out that both had read 13 Reasons Why and my daughter said she felt in a dark mood after reading it and was unable to shake off those feelings so when her friend messaged her to talk about depression it made her feel depressed too. I had no clue that the book had affected her so much or that her depressed friends confiding in her affected her so much. I didn’t know that quite a few of her friends had self-harmed or attempted suicide - she had told me but I found it hard to believe and I didn’t think I could exactly bring it up with their parents to ask if it was true.
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My 13 year old was in a similar situation. I think she was 12 at the time. We were at a family event and she was constantly on her phone and quite snappy when I told her to stop being anti-social. She only told me later that her friend had texted to say she was depressed and then that she was going to kill herself and stopped texting. My daughter got really worried and texted her friend’s mother to alert her. I got a call from the mother a few days later, who told me measures had been put in place to stop the friend’s tendency to isolate herself and that her daughter was getting some counselling and her smart phone had been confiscated and replaced with a non-smart phone. The mother told me she had read the messages on her daughter’s phone and that I should do the same as some of the conversations between our two daughters were quite intense in talking about depression and it was probably better if they took a step back from their friendship rather than indulge in the dark conversations.
It turned out that both had read 13 Reasons Why and my daughter said she felt in a dark mood after reading it and was unable to shake off those feelings so when her friend messaged her to talk about depression it made her feel depressed too. I had no clue that the book had affected her so much or that her depressed friends confiding in her affected her so much. I didn’t know that quite a few of her friends had self-harmed or attempted suicide - she had told me but I found it hard to believe and I didn’t think I could exactly bring it up with their parents to ask if it was true.
13 Reasons Why is scary. My daughter hates it because of what it does to young people, although she is old enough to detach from it. friend of mine found similar messages to the ones you describe on her phone - in this case it was a boy egging her daughter on and it was influenced by music IIRC. There was a young girl killed herself after watching Girl, Interrupted. Scary stuff.
Self harming is incredibly widespread.
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Define "high probability". What percentage of people walking down dark alleyways at night get mugged?
I wouldn’t know. Do you have a particular alley way in mind? Wandering around Lambeth at 11pm is a lot more dangerous than wandering around Richmond based on crime statistics but I would have to see the crime statistics for a particular neighbourhood and the number of people wandering around in the neighbourhood at 11pm to get an idea of an actual probability. Decisions about risk also take into account how bad the consequences would be if the event did happen so that might affect the decision someone makes based on their expectations of getting mugged.
But a dark alleyway where everybody gets mugged would soon be identified and targeted by the law authorities.
I would think so.
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Anyone who commits suicide is emotionally very unhappy. We used to protect the emotions of our youngest, but not anymore...we hand it all over to commercialism which thinks every one with a pound/dollar in their pocket is a fair target. Computer games, television, high emotional activity, misleading adverts, soccer team fanaticism, all contribute towards our emotional strength and many have found themselves falling into that emotional black-hole that results in suicide regardless of the weakness or strengths of their reasoning.
The obvious conclusion is that none of us should leave our emotional care to others...especially those that have no family commitment to you...and even these can let you down...I prefer Jesus Christ.
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Anyone who commits suicide is emotionally very unhappy. We used to protect the emotions of our youngest, but not anymore...we hand it all over to commercialism which thinks every one with a pound/dollar in their pocket is a fair target. Computer games, television, high emotional activity, misleading adverts, soccer team fanaticism, all contribute towards our emotional strength and many have found themselves falling into that emotional black-hole that results in suicide regardless of the weakness or strengths of their reasoning.
The obvious conclusion is that none of us should leave our emotional care to others...especially those that have no family commitment to you...and even these can let you down...I prefer Jesus Christ.
Jesus let me down when I prayed and prayed about the problem I mentioned, I never had any feeling he was around in the ether somewhere.
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Jesus let me down when I prayed and prayed about the problem I mentioned, I never had any feeling he was around in the ether somewhere.
Jesus Christ is my own personal faith...but I don't want to overstate his importance in all our lives here. The Samaritans have a code of conduct which deals with these matters. They know that people on the brink are in great anguish and just allowing the anxious person to express their unsolvable problems gives them a moment to see those problems clearer and a breather from the circular argument that leads only to deeper and deeper despair. Here, in this topic, a young lad with normal or even exaggerated anxieties has had those concerns handled very badly...it is likely that he was bleeding his nervous strength from the much confusion that surrounds us all today and became tormented from school bullying which just added to his emotional mayhem. The thing to realise is that emotional bullying is always the same, inflicted upon others by some very sad individuals who just don't care about others except themselves.
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Can't argue there, Nick.