Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Roses on August 31, 2018, 12:15:03 PM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
I would prefer the clocks to be the same all the year round, but I doubt this would be popular with people much further north than us.
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Point of information: it is not the EU that has proposed this but the EU Commission. It still has to be approved by the EU states and the EU parliament. I wouldn't normally argue the point but with Brexit, we need to be accurate.
Having said that, I would be in favour of having summer time all year round. I don't like having to bugger around with clocks twice a year and I have seen studies that say lighter afternoons would reduce road deaths.
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Point of information: it is not the EU that has proposed this but the EU Commission. It still has to be approved by the EU states and the EU parliament. I wouldn't normally argue the point but with Brexit, we need to be accurate.
Having said that, I would be in favour of having summer time all year round. I don't like having to bugger around with clocks twice a year and I have seen studies that say lighter afternoons would reduce road deaths.
That was tried in the mid 60s but scrapped after a couple of years, I think it was, which I have always thought was a pity.
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Having said that, I would be in favour of having summer time all year round. I don't like having to bugger around with clocks twice a year and I have seen studies that say lighter afternoons would reduce road deaths.
Tell the Commission:
There is also no reliable evidence that the clock changes reduce traffic accidents, the Commission says.
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I know I may have a macabre sense of humour but while flitting across the Web researching the subject I found this, which elicited a gallows grin:
In 1999 four would-be terrorists loaded two bombs into two cars. The bombs were set to go off at 6.30pm.
Their intention was to load the bombs onto the luggage racks of two intercity buses before hopping off and driving away.
They armed the bombs in a Palestinian area. Their targets were in Israel.
Israel had turned the clocks back a day before but the bombers hadn't noticed the difference. The bombs blew up at 5.30pm local time while still in their cars, killing the bombers.
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That was tried in the mid 60s but scrapped after a couple of years, I think it was, which I have always thought was a pity.
1968 to 1971. It was a pity for the Scots in that period:
Alex Salmond called the campaign an attempt to “plunge Scotland into morning darkness”. The complaints are founded; in the winter, the sun wouldn’t rise until 10am in parts of Scotland. The country’s 1,000 or so dairy farmers, who wake up before 5am, would have to work for hours in the dark. Other farmers and construction workers, who need sunlight to perform their jobs, would end up working later into the evening.
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1968 to 1971. It was a pity for the Scots in that period:
... in the winter, the sun wouldn’t rise until 10am in parts of Scotland. The country’s 1,000 or so dairy farmers, who wake up before 5am, would have to work for hours in the dark. Other farmers and construction workers, who need sunlight to perform their jobs, would end up working later into the evening.
So 70,000,000 people have to bow to the whim of 1,000 Scottish farmers who didn't have the nouse to set their alarms for 6am instead of 5am in the winter. And given that, on the days when the Sun rises at 9am, it sets at around 4pm, the workers who need daylight would in fact have to work as late as 5pm if summer time was used.
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So 70,000,000 people have to bow to the whim of 1,000 Scottish farmers
... that's assuming that 70,000,000 want to stop changing the clocks twice a year and stick to BST all year round. I don't - I don't have a problem with a job of moments twice a year. It's no big deal. A great many clocks and other devices these days do it automatically in any case.
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... that's assuming that 70,000,000 want to stop changing the clocks twice a year and stick to BST all year round.
No. It's just that there seems to be a lot of concern about a really small group of people - the tail wagging the dog, so to speak.
I don't - I don't have a problem with a job of moments twice a year. It's no big deal. A great many clocks and other devices these days do it automatically in any case.
I like having a bit of daylight when I leave the office in the evening. At present, during winter, when I leave home in the morning it's dark and when I leave the office in the evening it's dark. A bit more daylight in the late afternoon would be great.
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Point of information: it is not the EU that has proposed this but the EU Commission. It still has to be approved by the EU states and the EU parliament. I wouldn't normally argue the point but with Brexit, we need to be accurate.
Having said that, I would be in favour of having summer time all year round. I don't like having to bugger around with clocks twice a year and I have seen studies that say lighter afternoons would reduce road deaths.
Try weorking on the land, producing food or milk.
You'll sing a different song, especially in Scotland.
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1968 to 1971. It was a pity for the Scots in that period:
Yep.
I remember going to school in the pitch dark.
The sun only arose around 9:30, and full dawn by 10:00 am - and that was only Ayrshire.
It was still dark at 10:15 in Aberdeen and Inverness.
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I like having a bit of daylight when I leave the office in the evening. At present, during winter, when I leave home in the morning it's dark and when I leave the office in the evening it's dark. A bit more daylight in the late afternoon would be great.
If you're leaving the office in the evening you won't have much if any benefit from year-round BST. The closer we get to December 21st, it's dark by half past four or so anyway; changing to BST would make barely any difference. We can't change the planet's axial tilt and most of us can't or don't want to move closer to the equator; the best we can do is juggle the clocks to give the majority of people the most usable daylight when they need it (utilitarianism in action - the greatest happiness of the greatest number), which the present system was designed to do.
I like the dark mornings and afternoons anyway.
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Try weorking on the land, producing food or milk.
You'll sing a different song, especially in Scotland.
Don't buy it - if you work on the land you use all the available daylight there is. If the sun rises in winter at 9am and sets at 3pm, that's the time you work. If it rises at 10am and sets at 4pm you start work (the daylight critical part) an hour later and finish it an hour later.
Shifting the time makes no difference to the actual amount of daylight.
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Nay, nay, and thrice nay! I remember when they tried this in the late 60s, at the behest of big business, It was hugely unpopular, especially oop north and in Scotland, and the government ended the experiment pretty quickly.
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The only piece of Scottish exceptionalism that I might find significant is about kids going to and from school. Essentially though especially in the north islands we live in a country where it's never light in December. It won't matter after Brexit anyway as Jacob Rees Mogg is developing a cloaking device so that we will only appear once every hundred years.
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It's always possible for individual employers, if a majority of employees want it, to alter their hours of work; there's no need for a national abolition of daylight saving. Anyway, it's swings and roundabouts: what you gain at one end of the day, you lose at the other end.
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What frustrates me is the point in the year when we shift.
In the Autumn this is later October, so about 5 weeks the winter side of the equinox. That's the equivalent of mid February. Yet come spring we have to wait until late March, actually on the Summer side of the equinox.
I'd be happy with that change, so keep GMT in the winter and BST in the summer, but make the changes symmetrical either side of the winter solstice - so back in late October and forward in mid Feb.
If we can cope with the sunrise and sunset time in mid Oct on BST we can do so in late Feb, as they are the same.
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What frustrates me is the point in the year when we shift.
In the Autumn this is later October, so about 5 weeks the winter side of the equinox. That's the equivalent of mid February. Yet come spring we have to wait until late March, actually on the Summer side of the equinox.
I'd be happy with that change, so keep GMT in the winter and BST in the summer, but make the changes symmetrical either side of the winter solstice - so back in late October and forward in mid Feb.
If we can cope with the sunrise and sunset time in mid Oct on BST we can do so in late Feb, as they are the same.
Good point, but why not on the Sundays nearest the equinoxes?
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After Brexit in the sunlit uplands it will always be a beautiful early May morning with the thwack of the cricket bat on the cheeks, and the trilling of lovely maidens as they milk the Jersey, and the sound of church bells is as we burn the ceremonial nigger.
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It's always possible for individual employers, if a majority of employees want it, to alter their hours of work; there's no need for a national abolition of daylight saving. Anyway, it's swings and roundabouts: what you gain at one end of the day, you lose at the other end.
That might work for some companies but not others that deal with other companies, as they would have to change their working hours too.
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After Brexit in the sunlit uplands it will always be a beautiful early May morning with the thwack of the cricket bat on the cheeks, and the trilling of lovely maidens as they milk the Jersey, and the sound of church he is as we burn the ceremonial nigger.
I am surprised at you, that is a highly unpleasant racist comment to which I take great exception! >:(
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I am surprised at you, that is a highly unpleasant racist comment to which I take great exception! >:(
It was a sarcastic joke, not an actual racist comment.
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Westminster wanted us in their 'precious union'. It's far pas time they staryed listening to us...if the idiots want to keep us there. Have you ever tried finding yowes in the mirk?
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I am surprised at you, that is a highly unpleasant racist comment to which I take great exception! >:(
Take as much exception as you like. Indeed, I have a few large exceptions that you could take. They will need a big van though.
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Westminster wanted us in their 'precious union'. It's far pas time they staryed listening to us...if the idiots want to keep us there. Have you ever tried finding yowes in the mirk?
whatever time you decide it is makes no difference to doing that
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Good point, but why not on the Sundays nearest the equinoxes?
Nope too little BST. No-one complains about it being too dark in October, so if that's OK then we can put the hour forearm in mid Feb. So best would be 5 weeks before (Spring) and after (Autumn) the equinox.
There is nothing more frustrating than it being solidly light at 5:30 in the morning in late March and then finding it gets dark at 6:30 in the evening before you're home from work.
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Take as much exception as you like. Indeed, I have a few large exceptions that you could take. They will need a big van though.
So you think it ok to make an unpleasant racist comment using the awful 'n' word do you?
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It was a sarcastic joke, not an actual racist comment.
I forget my burning the ceremonial nigger emoji🎆
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So you think it ok to make an unpleasant racist comment using the awful 'n' word do you?
I think it is ok to mock people who are racist using any word.
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whatever time you decide it is makes no difference to doing that
Trust me, it does if you have to take a quad up the knowe in he early morning. Don't forget that lambing starts in late December in the Southern Uplands.
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Trust me, it does if you have to take a quad up the knowe in he early morning. Don't forget that lambing starts in late December in the Southern Uplands.
No, it really doesn't. There are x number of daylight hours. Calling them different numbers makes no difference to that.
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I forget my burning the ceremonial nigger emoji🎆
The 'n' word has such terrible connotations it should never be used even when mocking racists, imo.
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So you think it ok to make an unpleasant racist comment using the awful 'n' word do you?
Yeah, he's a bit of an awful c word, isn't he?
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The 'n' word has such terrible connotations it should never be used even when mocking racists, imo.
Why? And since I'm not a racist and didn't make a racist comment, any chance of an apology for you using the 'r' word?
As an aside can we only ever have 26 words in English that are 'first letter words'? Or could you have combinations?
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Yeah, he's a bit of an awful c word, isn't he?
'F' word me, and I was thinking I was merely a 'B' word. At times though I can be a bit big 'M' small 'f' er word. Could be worse I could be a JRM word!
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45366390
I would prefer the clocks to be the same all the year round, but I doubt this would be popular with people much further north than us.
The further north you go the days are so long changing the clocks is meaningless. It's just a pain in the arse.
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Why? And since I'm not a racist and didn't make a racist comment, any chance of an apology for you using the 'r' word?
As an aside can we only ever have 26 words in English that are 'first letter words'? Or could you have combinations?
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Using the 'n' word is racist, whether you think so or not. I don't think it does the reputation of this forum any good at all if you use it in whatever context.
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The further north you go the days are so long changing the clocks is meaningless. It's just a pain in the arse.
Quite a number of people, who live in the north, have made that comment I have noticed.
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Why? And since I'm not a racist and didn't make a racist comment, any chance of an apology for you using the 'r' word?
As an aside can we only ever have 26 words in English that are 'first letter words'? Or could you have combinations?
Using the 'n' word is racist, whether you think so or not. I don't think it does the reputation of this forum any good at all if you use it in whatever context.
Words in themselves are not racist, They are only a set of symbols or noises. If intent in using the word is meaningless then all language becomes pointless
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The further north you go the days are so long changing the clocks is meaningless. It's just a pain in the arse.
Or so short.
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Using the 'n' word is racist, whether you think so or not. I don't think it does the reputation of this forum any good at all if you use it in whatever context.
Words in themselves are not racist, They are only a set of symbols or noises. If intent in using the word is meaningless then all language becomes pointless
In your head maybe. Anyway as this is way off topic, I suggest you start another thread on racism.
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In your head maybe. Anyway as this is way off topic, I suggest you start another thread on racism.
I note the lack of argument, and that it is you objecting. You want a discussion on your challenge to me, off you go and raise it.
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Or so short.
Indeed.
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My body clock has gone back to GMT already :(
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My body clock needs new batteries, I think ::)
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Since the experiment ran 50 years ago, the world has changed. Travelling times are different, the structure of the working day is changed. AS ad_o notes, the further north you go the less it makes any difference.
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I really don't know why EU countries can't each decide what they want to do. The EU has 4 or 5 time zones so we already have countries on different times anyway.
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During WW2 they had double summer time the clocks were put on 2hrs. I think they stayed like that all year round, but no doubt I will be corrected if I got that wrong.
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No, it really doesn't. There are x number of daylight hours. Calling them different numbers makes no difference to that.
Farmers need to feed the stock in the hills. That means taking a load up a steep hill in winter - sometimes hairy at the best of times, given the climate.
Add on trying to do it in low light conditions and the problem's even worse.
Sheep don't live by the clock, but by the light level, and if the first feed they get is at nine thirty, then that can cause premature abortion.
The only alternative is to bring the whole flock into a barn....but if you're dealing with a flock of over a thousand, you need a bloomin' big barn!
Last year, several farmers were injured on the hills in daylight. Can you imagine how many more would suffer broken limbs in the gloaming before full light over the hills at ten o'clock?
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Farmers need to feed the stock in the hills. That means taking a load up a steep hill in winter - sometimes hairy at the best of times, given the climate.
Add on trying to do it in low light conditions and the problem's even worse.
Sheep don't live by the clock, but by the light level, and if the first feed they get is at nine thirty, then that can cause premature abortion.
The only alternative is to bring the whole flock into a barn....but if you're dealing with a flock of over a thousand, you need a bloomin' big barn!
Last year, several farmers were injured on the hills in daylight. Can you imagine how many more would suffer broken limbs in the gloaming before full light over the hills at ten o'clock?
So if they live by the light level then you take the action allowed by the light. Again what time we call it by number is entirely irrelevant.
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Farmers need to feed the stock in the hills. That means taking a load up a steep hill in winter - sometimes hairy at the best of times, given the climate.
Add on trying to do it in low light conditions and the problem's even worse.
Sheep don't live by the clock, but by the light level, and if the first feed they get is at nine thirty, then that can cause premature abortion.
The only alternative is to bring the whole flock into a barn....but if you're dealing with a flock of over a thousand, you need a bloomin' big barn!
Last year, several farmers were injured on the hills in daylight. Can you imagine how many more would suffer broken limbs in the gloaming before full light over the hills at ten o'clock?
So a farmer just adjusts his or her day accordingly to ensure that the things that need to be done during daylight hours are done during those hours. Changing the clock makes no difference at all, as all of this is under the control of the farmer.
Where there might be an effect is if someone is in a job reliant on daylight, but also reliant on external factors (e.g. trains running, planning regulations etc) that didn't align. So for example if clocks were shifted so that the the precious few hours of daylight in winter started at 7am, but planning regulations prevented building works before 9am, then this would be an issue as two hours of usable daylight would be lost.
But this doesn't apply to a farmer whose work patterns are under their own control.
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Farmers need to feed the stock in the hills. That means taking a load up a steep hill in winter - sometimes hairy at the best of times, given the climate.
Add on trying to do it in low light conditions and the problem's even worse.
Sheep don't live by the clock, but by the light level, and if the first feed they get is at nine thirty, then that can cause premature abortion.
The only alternative is to bring the whole flock into a barn....but if you're dealing with a flock of over a thousand, you need a bloomin' big barn!
Last year, several farmers were injured on the hills in daylight. Can you imagine how many more would suffer broken limbs in the gloaming before full light over the hills at ten o'clock?
Sometimes I need to catch an early flight. I do not expect everyone to adjust the clocks for me. I just get up in time to catch the flight.
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During WW2 they had double summer time the clocks were put on 2hrs. I think they stayed like that all year round, but no doubt I will be corrected if I got that wrong.
I think the clocks were not returned to GMT at the end of summer 1940 and were put forward by another hour the following spring and back by an hour in the autumn until the end of the war.
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1947, in fact.
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1947, in fact.
Maybe one of our more senior posters, like Susan Doris, might remember how well it worked in those days.
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'F' word me, and I was thinking I was merely a 'B' word. At times though I can be a bit big 'M' small 'f' er word. Could be worse I could be a JRM word!
Hope I didn't offend, NS, not my intention, I just hate it when words are referred to by letter like that in an adult conversation and in a context where to do so manages to both trivialise and give them added power.
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Hope I didn't offend, NS, not my intention, I just hate it when words are referred to by letter like that in an adult conversation and in a context where to do so manages to both trivialise and give them added power.
offend? Heaven forfend! Nah, I was just riffing on the whole alphabet thing.
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offend? Heaven forfend! Nah, I was just riffing on the whole alphabet thing.
Yeah, I got that, but even so. Cool.
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Yeah, I got that, but even so. Cool.
I was just pleased to stick forfend in a post. Anyway back to topic, the whole idea of some standard working day in daylight hours seems archaic.
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Try weorking on the land, producing food or milk.
You'll sing a different song, especially in Scotland.
As I previously said, there aren’t many people doing that and if 5am is too early, get up at 6 instead.
Let me tell you a secret: putting the clocks back does not actually increase the amount of daylight available.
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Yep.
I remember going to school in the pitch dark.
The sun only arose around 9:30, and full dawn by 10:00 am - and that was only Ayrshire.
It was still dark at 10:15 in Aberdeen and Inverness.
I googled daylight hours in Scotland. On the shortest day of the year, the Sun comes up at around 8.45 and goes down again at around 3.30pm. If we didn’t put the clocks back, it’s still 9.45 and 4.30
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I googled daylight hours in Scotland. On the shortest day of the year, the Sun comes up at around 8.45 and goes down again at around 3.30pm. If we didn’t put the clocks back, it’s still 9.45 and 4.30
Not disagreeing about the general point but where were the daylight times for? One time for Scotland is not that informative.
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Farmers need to feed the stock in the hills. That means taking a load up a steep hill in winter - sometimes hairy at the best of times, given the climate.
Add on trying to do it in low light conditions and the problem's even worse.
Sheep don't live by the clock, but by the light level, and if the first feed they get is at nine thirty, then that can cause premature abortion.
The only alternative is to bring the whole flock into a barn....but if you're dealing with a flock of over a thousand, you need a bloomin' big barn!
Last year, several farmers were injured on the hills in daylight. Can you imagine how many more would suffer broken limbs in the gloaming before full light over the hills at ten o'clock?
You realize that you have just invalidated your whole argument? The farmer needs to start work at first light. It doesn’t matter whether you call first light 5am, 6am or unicorn o’clock.
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Point of information: it is not the EU that has proposed this but the EU Commission. It still has to be approved by the EU states and the EU parliament. I wouldn't normally argue the point but with Brexit, we need to be accurate.
Having said that, I would be in favour of having summer time all year round. I don't like having to bugger around with clocks twice a year and I have seen studies that say lighter afternoons would reduce road deaths.
I work shifts, and would happily stay on GMT all year round so that I can have another month of going to work in the daylight.
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Why do so many people have a fetish about daylight?
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It's more that daylight is fundamental to our physical wellbeing. And I know that people who work long hours find that daylight gives the illusion of having something of an evening.
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So you think it ok to make an unpleasant racist comment using the awful 'n' word do you?
Sarcasm is not a word in your vocabulary, is it?
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Sarcasm is not a word in your vocabulary, is it?
YAWN!
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YAWN!
Grow up.
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Grow up.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Why do so many people have a fetish about daylight?
Who has a fetish about daylight?