Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on September 13, 2018, 08:25:29 AM
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/viktor-orban-conservative-european-parliament-theresa-may-a8534401.html
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/viktor-orban-conservative-european-parliament-theresa-may-a8534401.html
The article doesn’t say anything about May supporting Orban.
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The article doesn’t say anything about May supporting Orban.
I had been thinking in this case of Orban's support for May's plan, but that the Tory MEPs supported Orban, and May leads the Tories means the vice versa works as well.
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I had been thinking in this case of Orban's support for May's plan, but that the Tory MEPs supported Orban, and May leads the Tories means the vice versa works as well.
That doesn't necessarily follow.
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That doesn't necessarily follow.
Why? Orban is a racist. Tories supported him. May leads the Tory Party.
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Why? Orban is a racist. Tories supported him. May leads the Tory Party.
You really don't like that poor woman do you?
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Obviously an institutionally anti semitic party
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-orban-hungary-jewish-deputies-board-antisemitism-tory-british-meps-eu-vote-latest-a8535846.html
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You really don't like that poor woman do you?
I have to ask. What's to like?
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You really don't like that poor woman do you?
I don't like that she set up racist policies at the Home Office. Btw what was wrong with the logic of my previous post?
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Why? Orban is a racist. Tories supported him. May leads the Tory Party.
Some Tories supported him. That doesn't mean that May supports him. All political parties, including the Tories, are a broad church of opinions. It is, at best, muddled thinking to surmise that just because some members of a political party support/oppose a particular person or policy that their leader necessarily does too.
So to provide an analogy - there are plenty of Tories who vehemently oppose the Chequers Brexit proposals - by your inference as May is leader of the Tory party she must too oppose Chequers.
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Some Tories supported him. That doesn't mean that May supports him. All political parties, including the Tories, are a broad church of opinions. It is, at best, muddled thinking to surmise that just because some members of a political party support/oppose a particular person or policy that their leader necessarily does too.
So to provide an analogy - there are plenty of Tories who vehemently oppose the Chequers Brexit proposals - by your inference as May is leader of the Tory party she must too oppose Chequers.
I agree.
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Some Tories supported him. That doesn't mean that May supports him. All political parties, including the Tories, are a broad church of opinions. It is, at best, muddled thinking to surmise that just because some members of a political party support/oppose a particular person or policy that their leader necessarily does too.
So to provide an analogy - there are plenty of Tories who vehemently oppose the Chequers Brexit proposals - by your inference as May is leader of the Tory party she must too oppose Chequers.
The Tories are members of the same group in the European parliament that Orban is. May has made no objection to that. She has made no objection to the vote so the analogy with the Chequers plan is specious.
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The Tories are members of the same group in the European parliament that Orban is. May has made no objection to that. She has made no objection to the vote so the analogy with the Chequers plan is specious.
The current Tory government is in an arrangement with the DUP - does this mean that May necessarily supports all DUP policy positions, for example their opposition to equal marriage. Of course it doesn't.
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The current Tory government is in an arrangement with the DUP - does this mean that May necessarily supports all DUP policy positions, for example their opposition to equal marriage. Of course it doesn't.
Except I didn't say she supported all of his policies, so that's just a strawman.
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Except I didn't say she supported all of his policies, so that's just a strawman.
OK - I will rephrase:
The current Tory government is in an arrangement with the DUP - does this mean that May necessarily supports any particular DUP policy position, for example their opposition to equal marriage.
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OK - I will rephrase:
The current Tory government is in an arrangement with the DUP - does this mean that May necessarily supports any particular DUP policy position, for example their opposition to equal marriage.
No,but rephrasing the man of straw doesn't help.
Let's say there was a vote to censure the Tory govt and the DUP voted against that. Are you honestly saying that that would in no sense be support of the PM?
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No,but rephrasing the man of straw doesn't help.
Let's say there was a vote to censure the Tory govt and the DUP voted against that. Are you honestly saying that that would in no sense be support of the PM?
Poor analogy - this vote was in the European Parliament, not in the commons. There will be plenty of examples where Tory members have voted in manners we might find unacceptable (e.g. in Local councils, Welsh/London/Scottish Assembly/Parliament or in the European Parliament. That doesn't mean that May supports that action, let alone support any particular individual who might benefit.
I imagine up and down the country there are examples of Tory councillors voting in support of Labour administrations on certain topics - does that mean (as you seem to be implying) that May supports Corbyn. No it doesn't. It doesn't even mean that May supports Harry Smith, the Labour leader of Bloggshire Council if he has received the support of Tory councillors in a vote.
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Poor analogy - this vote was in the European Parliament, not in the commons. There will be plenty of examples where Tory members have voted in manners we might find unacceptable (e.g. in Local councils, Welsh/London/Scottish Assembly/Parliament or in the European Parliament. That doesn't mean that May supports that action, let alone support any particular individual who might benefit.
I imagine up and down the country there are examples of Tory councillors voting in support of Labour administrations on certain topics - does that mean (as you seem to be implying) that May supports Corbyn. No it doesn't. It doesn't even mean that May supports Harry Smith, the Labour leader of Bloggshire Council if he has received the support of Tory councillors in a vote.
The Tories sit with the same group as Orban, May doesn't object. The Tories vote to support Orban, May doesn't object.
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The Tories sit with the same group as Orban, May doesn't object. The Tories vote to support Orban, May doesn't object.
You've said this before - none of that means that May specifically supports Orban, let alone specifically supports selected Orban policy positions.
I'm no fan of May, but you are adding two and two and making nine.
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You've said this before - none of that means that May specifically supports Orban, let alone specifically supports selected Orban policy positions.
I'm no fan of May, but you are adding two and two and making nine.
In this case the party she leads voted to support Orban. She hasn't said anything against that or sitting In a group with Orban's party. Anyway already noted my OP was about Orban supporting May's deal. They are both racists.
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... or sitting In a group with Orban's party.
In what way is May (or even the Tories) 'sitting in a group with Orban's party' - as far as I'm aware there aren't any Hungarian MEPs in the same European Parliamentary group as the Tories (European Conservatives and Reformists Group).
I agree that Orban's politics are reprehensible and I suspect I am no more a fan of May than you are, but you mustn't let your views against each cloud your judgement as to the support of the latter for the former.
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In what way is May (or even the Tories) 'sitting in a group with Orban's party' - as far as I'm aware there aren't any Hungarian MEPs in the same European Parliamentary group as the Tories (European Conservatives and Reformists Group).
I agree that Orban's politics are reprehensible and I suspect I am no more a fan of May than you are, but you mustn't let your views against each cloud your judgement as to the support of the latter for the former.
Good point. I accept there aren't any in the grouping. That still leaves the fact that May hasn't spoken out against the vote, that Orban is a racist and May is a racist.
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Good point. I accept there aren't any in the grouping.
Which rather destroys your argument doesn't it.
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Which rather destroys your argument doesn't it.
Since you ignored the rest of the post, no.
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Which rather destroys your argument doesn't it.
And just to add, you seem also to have ignored the point about Organ being the racist PM supporting May, another racist PM which was the point of the OP.
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That still leaves the fact that May hasn't spoken out against the vote ...
But you are being simplistic - now I don't agree, but I gather the reason the Conservative MEPs voted as they did (or at least their official line) wasn't to support Orban but because they felt that the very notion of the European Parliament voting to censure the government and leader of a member state was overstepping their authority. In other words on a matter of principal. And certainly if you believe that the EU should be subservient to its member states you can see why that isn't an unreasonable argument.
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Since you ignored the rest of the post, no.
Which I've addressed above.
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And just to add, you seem also to have ignored the point about Organ being the racist PM supporting May, another racist PM which was the point of the OP.
You do like banding the word racist around, don't you.
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That still leaves the fact that May hasn't spoken out against the vote, that Orban is a racist and May is a racist.
I agree that it is factually correct that May hasn't commented on the vote.
It is an opinion that Orban is a racist (albeit one that is fairly easy to justify). It is an opinion that May is a racist (albeit I suspect rather more difficult to justify than Orban). It is not, however, a fact.
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You do like banding the word racist around, don't you.
Not sure what point you are trying to make here? Are you saying Organ isn't a racist? Or that May isn't?
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I agree that it is factually correct that May hasn't commented on the vote.
It is an opinion that Orban is a racist (albeit one that is fairly easy to justify). It is an opinion that May is a racist (albeit I suspect rather more difficult to justify than Orban). It is not, however, a fact.
of course it isn't a fact that anyone is a racist. So do you think Organ is a racist? Do you think May is a racist?
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But you are being simplistic - now I don't agree, but I gather the reason the Conservative MEPs voted as they did (or at least their official line) wasn't to support Orban but because they felt that the very notion of the European Parliament voting to censure the government and leader of a member state was overstepping their authority. In other words on a matter of principal. And certainly if you believe that the EU should be subservient to its member states you can see why that isn't an unreasonable argument.
Did the vote support Orban in his actions? Do you think Orban is a racist?
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of course it isn't a fact that anyone is a racist.
Then why did you imply it to be in your sentence:
'That still leaves the fact that May hasn't spoken out against the vote, that Orban is a racist and May is a racist.'
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Did the vote support Orban in his actions?
But that wasn't the point you were making - your claim was that May, not the Tory MEPs (who have autonomous shipping arrangements to the Westminster party) was supporting Orban.
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Then why did you imply it to be in your sentence:
'That still leaves the fact that May hasn't spoken out against the vote, that Orban is a racist and May is a racist.'
Because the first part is a fact, and the second and third parts are are opinions. Why did you edit the post and not answer the questions?
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So do you think Organ is a racist?
From what I know of him - yes.
Do you think May is a racist?
From what I know of her - no.
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From what I know of him - yes.
From what I know of her - no.
So you appear to have missed her role as Home Secretary?
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But that wasn't the point you were making - your claim was that May, not the Tory MEPs (who have autonomous shipping arrangements to the Westminster party) was supporting Orban.
So we have the fact that the Tories MEPs supported Orban. We have the fact that May is the leader of the Tory party. And that she hasn't said anything against it.
And if course the fact that Orban was supporting May's plan.
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So you appear to have missed her role as Home Secretary?
Nope
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I have to ask. What's to like?
Seconded.
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So we have the fact that the Tories MEPs supported Orban. We have the fact that May is the leader of the Tory party. And that she hasn't said anything against it.
And if course the fact that Orban was supporting May's plan.
None of which leads to your claim, namely that May supports Orban.