Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on September 20, 2018, 11:07:40 AM
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That there are people that think he should be out on the Supreme Court without any investigation, I find depressing.
That there are those who think even if the allegations are correct, he should still be put on as it's no big deal, I find sickening
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45583248
This blog post gets it right for me.
https://www.simchafisher.com/2018/09/17/between-brock-turner-and-brett-kavanaugh-when-do-girls-matter/
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Yes.
When I read Christine Blasey Ford’s account I remembered the times that happened to me, to my friends, to most girls I knew, and far worse besides. If all the boys who did this lost their jobs, their university places and went to jail the system wouldn’t be able to cope.
I knew as a girl that I was for using, groping, raping. It seems to be different these days, but not by much.
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You read some of the comments on this, and feel the need to scrub yourself.
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I was inappropriately touched by three men when I was young, it was most unpleasant. >:(
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I was inappropriately touched by three men when I was young, it was most unpleasant. >:(
You were assaulted. I think we can say that's a bit more than 'most unpleasant'. And yet there are those who would think that it was just normal for the male of the species, nothing to worry about.
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I read this earlier on the internet elsewhere:
"Hello. I am an opportunistic woman. I make up decades old sexual assault allegations against rich and powerful men because my lifelong dream is to get death threats from strangers calling me a lying whore"
And they wonder why women don't report sexual assaults in the first place.
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You were assaulted. I think we can say that's a bit more than 'most unpleasant'. And yet there are those who would think that it was just normal for the male of the species, nothing to worry about.
It was LR that suffered it, so I think she gets to choose the words to describe it.
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It was LR that suffered it, so I think she gets to choose the words to describe it.
Indeed she does.
Most of us say it wasn’t much, doesn’t matter, move on. And we do. What choice do we have?
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It was LR that suffered it, so I think she gets to choose the words to describe it.
In relation to her absolutely - but in relation to it being a crime it's not just that.
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Indeed she does.
Most of us say it wasn’t much, doesn’t matter, move on. And we do. What choice do we have?
And that choice is policed by the worst of us (see extreme example in link). My point about LR's phrasing is while it is her experience, it is part of what those who see it as just part of life use to minimise it, and question it. What happened to LR in addition her experience was a vile crime.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/opinions/arlington-texas/?utm_term=.97b614500dfc
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If I were Kavanaugh and innocent, I would be begging for a full investigation
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That there are those who think even if the allegations are correct, he should still be put on as it's no big deal, I find sickening
Then this is probably not the time to remind you that the current President of the USA has claimed on tape that he likes to “grab women’s pussies” and they let him get away with it because he is rich and on Telly. The fact that it did not end his presidential campaign there and then is pretty depressing by itself. Then he went on to win the election and, astonishingly, some women voted for him. American politics is so fucked up.
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Followed Dr Ford's testimony yesterday. Like many other women -and men too, I have no doubt - I cried, and remembered why we seldom tell our stories.
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A couple of things which really disturb about this affair:
1 The general point that at its highest level, the judicial system of the USA is politicised - and thus open to possible corruption, and
2. The readiness that Kavanaugh will jump on the religion bandwagon if he thinks that it will give him an advantage ... to the extent of reporting his 10 year old daughter's prayers.
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It is indeed outrageous that Supreme Court appointments are openly political: the responsibility for appointment should be taken out of the hands of politicians altogether.
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Agree with both of you. There is no way that justice will be seen to be done regardless of the outcome.
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While the politicisation of the Supreme Court is an issue, it seems to me the most important thing currently is the message this sends to any woman who has been sexually assaulted. I struggle to comprehend quite how damaging this will be.
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While the politicisation of the Supreme Court is an issue, it seems to me the most important thing currently is the message this sends to any woman who has been sexually assaulted. I struggle to comprehend quite how damaging this will be.
I don't think you can separate the two. Not in this case.
But it does also give a glimpse of what happens in court. I wouldn't report sexual assault, domestic abuse. There's no point.
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I don't think you can separate the two. Not in this case.
But it does also give a glimpse of what happens in court. I wouldn't report sexual assault, domestic abuse. There's no point.
But if it isn't reported the abuser gets away with it, and will carry on abusing their victims.
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But if it isn't reported the abuser gets away with it, and will carry on abusing their victims.
Nice idea that reporting it means justice and an end to the abuse. It rarely does. In a case like this,(and most of not all women have a story like this one) it isn't worth the re-abuse of the court process, assuming it even gets that far, which it probably won't.
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...most of not all women have a story like this one...
It's not just women, you know: I doubt if many men make it to adulthood without at least one unpleasant encounter with a d.o.m.
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It's not just women, you know: I doubt if many men make it to adulthood without at least one unpleasant encounter with a d.o.m.
Very true. Sadly.
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Well, he did a great line in self-pity and bluster, a kind of Trump mini-me. The reversal of roles was incredible, Ford was composed and dignified, Kavanaugh verged on hysteria. But he guarantees the right wing a reversal on abortion, their great prize. This is why the evangelicals voted Trump!
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As a woman in court you can't win. If you are composed, calm, then at best whatever happened didn't really matter, at worst you are lying. If you get upset you are hysterical, manipulative, unreliable, unstable.
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I half hesitate to post this as what is happening seems so dangerous in terms of women feeling that they cannot come forward about sexual abuse that there can be nothing funny about it - but this from Marina Hyde makes both that point and is savagely funny.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/28/brett-kavanaugh-testimony-nominee-supreme-court
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Lots of people are remembering Anita Hill who was in a similar case, in 1991. I think she was quite articulate, and almost scornful of the committee and they didn't like it. Uppity nigger.
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Flake's voted for Kavanaugh. I think that's it.
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Lots of people are remembering Anita Hill who was in a similar case, in 1991. I think she was quite articulate, and almost scornful of the committee and they didn't like it. Uppity nigger.
Yeah, she faced double the prejudice.
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Lots of people are remembering Anita Hill who was in a similar case, in 1991. I think she was quite articulate, and almost scornful of the committee and they didn't like it. Uppity nigger.
The 'n' word is NOT acceptable! >:( >:(
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Powerful footage.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-45684050/republican-senator-flake-cornered-by-sexual-assault-survivor
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I think her testimony seemed to be very credible, unlike Kavanaugh and his reaction.
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Wow, so this guy will be on the SC for life, and Trump can fill any further vacancies. I know that abortion is the biggie for the Republicans and evangelicals, it will depend whether some states can still allow it. But the SC could deal with anything, e.g., gay marriage, climate change. Why is the West becoming right wing?
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It isn't simply right wing, but right and left. Both harder. Both more polarised. In the west only one of those wins elections. Why? Because as those with money and power grabbed more and more of it everyone else was left behind.
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Alex Massie on good form
https://capx.co/the-kavanaugh-hearings-mark-a-low-point-in-a-low-era-of-american-politics/
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Why is the West becoming right wing?
Is the West?
Or is those parts of the west that have electoral systems that polarise opinion?
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There's a rumour that Flake is wavering...
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There's a rumour that Flake is wavering...
Which he did, but only kind of.
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Have to say that the footage in the elevator had the hairs on the back of my neck standing on end. I watched it wit my daughter and we both agreed we were watching a man with a level of decency struggle with the fact that he ad doing something wrong. And the power of those women...'Don't look away from me.'
Compelling stuff.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45687301
Kavanaugh will be investigated by the FBI before his appointment can be verified.
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https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/9/29/1799939/-The-Kavanaugh-Hearings-in-Cartoons
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Just heard on the 'Sunday' programme on Radio 4 that Kavanaugh was, at the time of the alleged assault, a pupil at a Jesuit school. Enough said, as far as I'm concerned; that in itself should be a bar against his appointment. Biased against him? Yes, definitely!
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Just heard on the 'Sunday' programme on Radio 4 that Kavanaugh was, at the time of the alleged assault, a pupil at a Jesuit school. Enough said, as far as I'm concerned; that in itself should be a bar against his appointment. Biased against him? Yes, definitely!
Anyone who is favoured by Trump has a big NO! NO!, imo.
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Just heard on the 'Sunday' programme on Radio 4 that Kavanaugh was, at the time of the alleged assault, a pupil at a Jesuit school. Enough said, as far as I'm concerned; that in itself should be a bar against his appointment. Biased against him? Yes, definitely!
Ah well that's me out as well then.
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Just heard on the 'Sunday' programme on Radio 4 that Kavanaugh was, at the time of the alleged assault, a pupil at a Jesuit school. Enough said, as far as I'm concerned; that in itself should be a bar against his appointment. Biased against him? Yes, definitely!
Now you're being silly. He can't help where he went to school.
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Dani Garavelli, powerful, moving, angry, true.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/dani-garavelli-injustice-cries-out-at-kavanaugh-hearing-1-4807373
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Now you're being silly. He can't help where he went to school.
Guess I'm out to - I went to Sunday School. ;)
Its ridiculous to base exclusion on a person's education. It's what they do with the education that is important, how they learn from it; how they recognise the shortcomings, failures and advantages of the education they received.
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While the politicisation of the Supreme Court is an issue, it seems to me the most important thing currently is the message this sends to any woman who has been sexually assaulted. I struggle to comprehend quite how damaging this will be.
That is the point - it is beyond comprehension to anyone who has not experienced sexual assault.
'Assault' everyone understands to some degree or other, only a small minority (but not small enough to be in anyway acceptable) understand what 'sexual assault' means, what it feels like at the time, what the memory of it feels like even years and years after the event.
Even without it being vocalised by anyone not involved, the victim will, to a greater or lesser degree, blame themselves, even if it goes no further that wondering WTF did I do to deserve that?
I have for many years been an advocate of surgical castration of any male convicted of a second offence of sexual assault. (Cue screams of horror from the liberal wing of humanity!)
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The problem with your suggestion of castration, Sir Owl, is that many (if not most) acts of rape and sexual assault are about power and rage and not sex, or not exclusively. Being castrated won't stop someone from hating others and wanting power; instead they may use razor blades or broken bottles.
Life meaning life makes a lot more sense.
Incidentally, I do think most of us comprehend how damaging this is, because most of us have been there.
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Maybe having SEX OFFENDER branded on their foreheads might be more effective.
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Maybe having SEX OFFENDER branded on their foreheads might be more effective.
Ffs.
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Maybe having SEX OFFENDER branded on their foreheads might be more effective.
Effective in achieving what?
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Effective in achieving what?
People giving them a wide berth!
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People giving them a wide berth!
Say that leads them to rape more? And an increase in rapes?
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Maybe having SEX OFFENDER branded on their foreheads might be more effective.
While we are at it, maybe we could brand others STUPID.
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Maybe having SEX OFFENDER branded on their foreheads might be more effective.
I know that my support for castration is barbaric and impractical but branding seems to hark back to severing the hands of thieves!
We live in modern times and there are, so I have been told, drugs that will render anybody catatonic and totally incapable of any kind of sexual activity, I think it is called 'an extreme excess of alcohol' administred over a very short period orally.
I regret that this thread shows just why permanent imprisonment is probably the only sure preventive measure for sexual assaults, repeated assaults anyway.
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I know that my support for castration is barbaric and impractical but branding seems to hark back to severing the hands of thieves!
We live in modern times and there are, so I have been told, drugs that will render anybody catatonic and totally incapable of any kind of sexual activity, I think it is called 'an extreme excess of alcohol' administred over a very short period orally.
I regret that this thread shows just why permanent imprisonment is probably the only sure preventive measure for sexual assaults, repeated assaults anyway.
That's true of everything. So no one should be out of prison.
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That's true of everything. So no one should be out of prison.
Doesn't that depend on degree of harm? We accept that having a justice system results in some wrong convictions. I think we also accept that many offenders will reoffend, if not most. Isn't there a discussion to be had about who we imprison in the first place, who we let out and who we don't?
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People giving them a wide berth!
Mistakes can be made.
What does a wrongly branded person do once exonerated?
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Mistakes can be made.
What does a wrongly branded person do once exonerated?
Grow a fringe?
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Doesn't that depend on degree of harm? We accept that having a justice system results in some wrong convictions. I think we also accept that many offenders will reoffend, if not most. Isn't there a discussion to be had about who we imprison in the first place, who we let out and who we don't?
Pretty much my point. What the objective is isn't simple.
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Pretty much my point. What the objective is isn't simple.
This is where the downside of pedantry is that no-one would ever go to prison - just in case it was the wrong bloke/girl - depending on the charge - of course!
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This is where the downside of pedantry is that no-one would ever go to prison - just in case it was the wrong bloke/girl - depending on the charge - of course!
No, that's the point of justice not pedantry. Locking people up who haven't done anything is counterproductive and unjust.
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Apparently these high profile cases of sexual abuse is encouraging people in the 18-34 age range to report abuse they have encountered.
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http://newsthump.com/2018/10/03/man-ridiculing-victim-of-sexual-abuse-on-world-stage-asks-why-didnt-she-come-forward-sooner/
Won't dent the support for him one bit.
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Good for the churches.
http://fortune.com/2018/10/03/national-council-of-churches-demands-kavanaugh-withdraw/
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Good for the churches.
http://fortune.com/2018/10/03/national-council-of-churches-demands-kavanaugh-withdraw/
Good.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45762281
Not good news!
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Surely, the real bad news here is not that Kavanaugh's teenage behaviour was reprehensible, but (something that we well know) at its highest level, the judiciary of the United States of America is politically compromised.
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Surely, the real bad news here is not that Kavanaugh's teenage behaviour was reprehensible, but (something that we well know) at its highest level, the judiciary of the United States of America is politically compromised.
The US judiciary is certainly poliitcally compromised, and Kavanaugh as its big cheese would make it even more so, imo.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45928212
This made me giggle. New York witches have place a hex on Kavanaugh! ;D
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45928212
This made me giggle. New York witches have place a hex on Kavanaugh! ;D
I am, as most here know, a witch amd I am most assuredly NOT giggling!
One, the reaction of about 99% of those reading the article who are not witches are also giggling themselves silly.
Two, typical bloody Americans have to do everything in a blaze of publicity;
Thrre, the chances of the hex, in English, the curse, working vary in inverse proportion to the number of people participating directly or indirectly in the casting of said hex. Thr article states that the witch who is casting the hex is doing it in her shop and has had thousands, fifteen thousand I think, offers of help or potential attendees. The chances of getting the pinpoint concentration of purpose and power direction is so remote as to be negligable.
I wish them luck but hope they don't blow her shop up in the process as that would give the anti-witch American Christians a field day to celebrate their God punishing the heathen evil witches.
And, of course, some on here would not miss the chance either. Thank the Goddess that Johnny Canoe is not around, he would have a field day!
Bright Blessings, Love and Light to all present.
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All you need to know is that she sold tickets. ::)
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I am, as most here know, a witch amd I am most assuredly NOT giggling!
One, the reaction of about 99% of those reading the article who are not witches are also giggling themselves silly.
Two, typical bloody Americans have to do everything in a blaze of publicity;
Thrre, the chances of the hex, in English, the curse, working vary in inverse proportion to the number of people participating directly or indirectly in the casting of said hex. Thr article states that the witch who is casting the hex is doing it in her shop and has had thousands, fifteen thousand I think, offers of help or potential attendees. The chances of getting the pinpoint concentration of purpose and power direction is so remote as to be negligable.
I wish them luck but hope they don't blow her shop up in the process as that would give the anti-witch American Christians a field day to celebrate their God punishing the heathen evil witches.
And, of course, some on here would not miss the chance either. Thank the Goddess that Johnny Canoe is not around, he would have a field day!
Bright Blessings, Love and Light to all present.
Of course, you can't mean there is any real power available here can you since you are against Christians who believe there is a real god who is more than just faith. When you say ''it works'', you can't really mean that can you?
The prospect that a select group of people have this power would be terrifying if it were more than just faith.
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Of course, you can't mean there is any real power available here can you since you are against Christians who believe there is a real god who is more than just faith. When you say ''it works'', you can't really mean that can you?
The prospect that a select group of people have this power would be terrifying if it were more than just faith.
You’re getting into ‘prove prayer works’ territory. I wouldn’t.
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You’re getting into ‘prove prayer works’ territory. I wouldn’t.
That would be 'shifting the burden of proof' Rhiannon.
Owlswing has repeatedly criticised Christians for saying that God is more than just faith and here he is seemingly talking about a mysterious power that works, can be directed and focussed and can blow things up.
All I want to know is does he really believe this power that works is any more than faith, since to do so would spell hypocrisy over his attitude to Christianity in my view.
If you suddenly launch into prove prayer works then that would be blatant deflection tactics.
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I’m not going to ask you to prove prayer works. But you can’t diss Owlswing’s position when you believe in the power of your own.
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I’m not going to ask you to prove prayer works. But you can’t diss Owlswing’s position when you believe in the power of your own.
Owlswing position is that christians are wrong because they say their beliefs are more than faith.
The only way that position can be legitimately dissed is if Owlswing himself believes that what he holds is more than faith. An example being that there is real power in the hexes he talks about.
This would be dissable on the grounds of hypocrisy and contradiction.
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Just to note that Father Thomas as quoted in the article seems to think hexes work
'A Catholic priest and exorcist in California, Father Gary Thomas, planned to counter the spell by saying prayers for the justice at Mass.
"This is a conjuring of evil - not about free speech," Father Thomas told the National Catholic Register.'
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Just to note that Father Thomas as quoted in the article seems to think hexes work
'A Catholic priest and exorcist in California, Father Gary Thomas, planned to counter the spell by saying prayers for the justice at Mass.
"This is a conjuring of evil - not about free speech," Father Thomas told the National Catholic Register.'
Father Thomas certainly isn't dissing a belief that there is power here.
My bet is we will never know whether Owlswing really believes there is real power or not.
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Father Thomas certainly isn't dissing a belief that there is power here.
My bet is we will never know whether Owlswing really believes there is real power or not.
No, he's (Thomas) clearly stating that it works. Why would you counter something that didn't work?
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Whilst I wish there was a spell that could be put on Kavanaugh and his bestie, Trump, to stop them doing any more harm, they have the same amount of credibility as exorcism hocus pocus, imo.
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No, he's (Thomas) clearly stating that it works. Why would you counter something that didn't work?
Could be psychologically helpful. I'm easily spooked. In my head I don't believe in 'hex' but if someone put one on me I'd be nervous. Another person doing something to counter it would help me feel better whether any of it worked or not.
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Could be psychologically helpful. I'm easily spooked. In my head I don't believe in 'hex' but if someone put one on me I'd be nervous. Another person doing something to counter it would help me feel better whether any of it worked or not.
Except that isn't Thomas' position. He obviously thinks his stuff works to stop something he sees as working.
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Could be psychologically helpful. I'm easily spooked. In my head I don't believe in 'hex' but if someone put one on me I'd be nervous. Another person doing something to counter it would help me feel better whether any of it worked or not.
I once had a conversation with woman who was convinced that she was cursed by a rival. When I explained to her how the 'mind game' or whatever you want to call it had been worked on her she didn't want to know. The only way she was going to be convinced that she was ok was to counter the curse so I gave her some suggestions as to deal with that. She'd no more been cursed than she was the queen of England.
I doubt very much though whether Kavanaugh needs any such reassurance.
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Except that isn't Thomas' position. He obviously thinks his stuff works to stop something he sees as working.
The man's having a blast. He knows jack about witchcraft mind, but he's still having a massive ego stroke.
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He knows jack about witchcraft mind,
Perhaps you could elucidate what you mean by 'Witchcraft mind'?
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Perhaps you could elucidate what you mean by 'Witchcraft mind'?
Oh Vlad...
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Oh Vlad...
Oh Vlad? Is that as in Oh Vlad, i'm about to get all Masonic?
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Oh Vlad? Is that as in Oh Vlad, i'm about to get all Masonic?
No, it's an 'oh, Vlad, you don't seem to understand colloquial English.'
I'm sure that it is a misunderstanding on your part though and not a wilful misinterpretation designed for effect.
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No, it's an 'oh, Vlad, you don't seem to understand colloquial English.'
I'm afraid I don't understand what you meant when you mentioned 'Witchcraft mind'. Why is it unreasonable to expect elucidation here?
Do you believe there is real power in the curse against Kavanaugh...that is, beyond the psychological?
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I'm afraid I don't understand what you meant when you mentioned 'Witchcraft mind'. Why is it unreasonable to expect elucidation here?
Do you believe there is real power in the curse against Kavanaugh...that is, beyond the psychological?
Oh ffs.
'Mind' as in 'mind you'. It's not difficult.
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Oh ffs.
'Mind' as in 'mind you'. It's not difficult.
I think Vlad read it as the way people who practice witchcraft think, sort of like hive mind
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Except that isn't Thomas' position. He obviously thinks his stuff works to stop something he sees as working.
Well yes, some people really do believe in that stuff. I dunno whether Thomas does or not (is Thos 'Owswing'?), I hope not.
If evil minded people decided to 'hex' me, the very idea of anyone sending horrible thoughts my way in a formulaic manner, using words & phrases that they believe in, even if I don't, would be deeply disturbing.
I think Vlad read it as the way people who practice witchcraft think, sort of like hive mind
If you mean it was taken to mean they are 'of like mind', that's what I thought was meant. I dunno about the 'mind you' business. However......we're getting off the Kavanaugh point.
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If you mean it was taken to mean they are 'of like mind', that's what I thought was meant. I dunno about the 'mind you' business. However......we're getting off the Kavanaugh point.
What don't you know? Whether I am lying? Of course, that's what I do. Oh hang on...
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I think Vlad read it as the way people who practice witchcraft think, sort of like hive mind
Seriously? How odd.
I will phrase it again though seeing as I'm just a thick Londoner what don't talk right.
The priest clearly doesn't know very much about witchcraft but he's having a jolly good time regardless.
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What don't you know? Whether I am lying? Of course, that's what I do. Oh hang on...
Oh come on, I've never once thought you were lying. Not ever! You're the last person I'd think was lying. We may have misinterpreted eachother, I honestly didn't understand you but think someone (NS) explained it.
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Oh come on, I've never once thought you were lying. Not ever! You're the last person I'd think was lying. We may have misinterpreted eachother, I honestly didn't understand you but think someone (NS) explained it.
NS explained what Vlad thought I meant. It's just an expression that's in common usage, an abbreviated form of 'mind you' or 'by the way', I'm amazed anyone thought I was referring to the mind at all.
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Please accept my apologies for not understanding. I certainly never thought for one moment that you were lying. I now 'get' what you are saying as well as 'getting' NS's explanation.
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Please accept my apologies for not understanding. I certainly never thought for one moment that you were lying. I now 'get' what you are saying as well as 'getting' NS's explanation.
No worries. :)
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I can't believe we're having an argument about appending the word "mind" to a sentence. I've got a friend who does it all the time, but usually only in verbal communication, mind.
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Tell me about it. Maybe I was negligent in my usage of commas.
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Never mind ;).