Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Roses on October 27, 2018, 04:59:03 PM
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46002549
This time at a synagogue! >:(
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46002549
This time at a synagogue! >:(
These stories were bad enough before Trump started spouting on about the death penalty and gun control. At least he didn't send thoughts and prayers.
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It is so tragic the US cannot see that their weapons don't make them any safer.
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The question here is whether the rhetoric bein spewed out in Fox about Soros (dog whistle for Jews) being behind the immigrant caravan contributed to it.
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The question here is whether the rhetoric bein spewed out in Fox about Soros (dog whistle for Jews) being behind the immigrant caravan contributed to it.
"Dog whistle for Jews" my arse. Is no-one allowed to criticise Jewish people?
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"Dog whistle for Jews" my arse. Is no-one allowed to criticise Jewish people?
Using Soros as a name is the same dog whistle as mentioning the Rothschilds. Nice to see you supporting Fox news, and Orban in Hungary.
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"Dog whistle for Jews" my arse. Is no-one allowed to criticise Jewish people?
Trump made up shit about Soros. He repeated conspiracy theories about him. That’s not ‘criticism’.
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I linked to this on the Soros thread.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/24/george-soros-antisemitism-bomb-attacks
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David Schneider on the reaction of some on the 'left' to the shooting
https://mobile.twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1056489516595322881
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This
https://mobile.twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1056324117329297409
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Trump applauds violence against a journalist. Calls neo naxis good people and anybody is fucking surprised that this happens in a society more laden with guns than good sense?
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Using Soros as a name is the same dog whistle as mentioning the Rothschilds. Nice to see you supporting Fox news, and Orban in Hungary.
I am doing nothing of the kind, but criticism of them must be valid, and that isn't.
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I am doing nothing of the kind, but criticism of them must be valid, and that isn't.
If you don't think using Soros conspiracy theories are anti semitic , then you are either supporting them or being played.
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More on the anti Semitic conspiracy stuff
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/why-false-narratives-about-the-migrant-caravan-and-mail-bombs-wont-go-away-on-social-media/2018/10/25/f506cc5e-d889-11e8-a10f-b51546b10756_story.html
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Good
https://mobile.twitter.com/CelebrateMercy/status/1056284142701346817
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Yes, as NS has said, many of the obsessions of the right wing are brought together in Bowers, the Jewish conspiracy against the US, often said to be headed by Soros, the incredibly dangerous "caravan" heading for the US border, probably financed by Jews, and threatening all white people, as these people are brown and poor. There is also the reversal that you often find - we are threatened by slaughter, so the solution is my own slaughter - of Jews. Of course, the racists, including Trump, will deny any responsibility.
Cue Julius Streicher, "can't you feel that the German people has carried for 7 years from one station of pain to another, a huge cross? Help us that the German people will be freed from the weight of the yoke of Jewry." A speech in 1932, I think.
I was wondering how you combat this stuff, as it is a kind of fantasy. So it's hard to fact check.
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Yes, as NS has said, many of the obsessions of the right wing are brought together in Bowers, the Jewish conspiracy against the US, often said to be headed by Soros, the incredibly dangerous "caravan" heading for the US border, probably financed by Jews, and threatening all white people, as these people are brown and poor. There is also the reversal that you often find - we are threatened by slaughter, so the solution is my own slaughter - of Jews. Of course, the racists, including Trump, will deny any responsibility.
Cue Julius Streicher, "can't you feel that the German people has carried for 7 years from one station of pain to another, a huge cross? Help us that the German people will be freed from the weight of the yoke of Jewry." A speech in 1932, I think.
And indulged in by many on the 'left' seeing Soros as banker as Rothschild as Jew.
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I keep wondering why we're seeing the renaissance of fascist/hard right ideology now? Some people say it's about uncertainty, but there has been plenty of that since the war.
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I keep wondering why we're seeing the renaissance of fascist/hard right ideology now? Some people say it's about uncertainty, but there has been plenty of that since the war.
Social media? That's what some seem to think.
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I keep wondering why we're seeing the renaissance of fascist/hard right ideology now? Some people say it's about uncertainty, but there has been plenty of that since the war.
I think it is a combination of several things. Firstly, there is the conflict in the Middle East which the West intervened in thus creating a migration crisis which gives the Right something to hate against. Then there is the relative decline of some industries like coal and steel in the West in combination with the Left refocusing on identity politics and leaving a vacuum amongst their traditional (now unemployed) base for the right to fill (this is how Trump got into power).
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Social media? That's what some seem to think.
I can't believe that. An American friend suggested austerity, and that fits Germany in the 30s. Not the only factor.
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I keep wondering why we're seeing the renaissance of fascist/hard right ideology now? Some people say it's about uncertainty, but there has been plenty of that since the war.
Change
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I can't believe that. An American friend suggested austerity, and that fits Germany in the 30s. Not the only factor.
Austerity in the 70's?
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Change
Doing what we do.
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There were about 10 years between the Great Depression and the accession of Hitler. The great recession was in 2008, about 10 years ago. Time lag?
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There were about 10 years between the Great Depression and the accession of Hitler. The great recession was in 2008, about 10 years ago. Time lag?
I think this kind of thing can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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I think this kind of thing can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
That's what Hitler hoped.
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It struck me that one of the strong themes in fascist groups is humiliation. That is, we are humiliated and weakened now, as our former greatness has been attacked by lefties, liberals, immigrants, Jews, etc. The task is to recover that greatness.
So there is a strong sense of victimhood, and usually there is a handy scapegoat who is responsible. Of course, humiliation is used outside fascism.
Bowers seems to express this sense of humiliation, as he says, we are being slaughtered. Solution? Slaughter.
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There were about 10 years between the Great Depression and the accession of Hitler. The great recession was in 2008, about 10 years ago. Time lag?
The Great Depression started in 1929. Hitler was appointed chancellor in 1932. Three years.
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The Great Depression started in 1929. Hitler was appointed chancellor in 1932. Three years.
1933. Four years.
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I keep wondering why we're seeing the renaissance of fascist/hard right ideology now? Some people say it's about uncertainty, but there has been plenty of that since the war.
A fascist ideology is an extreme of authoritarian - liberal axis not necessarily right wing. Some of Hitlers policies were socialist.
The are debates exactly where he existed on the political spectrum.
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/hitler-and-the-socialist-dream-1186455.html
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46135459
Just to note that yet again innocent people died because of the devotion to guns in the US.
As someone said on TV this morning it doesn't even come as a shock or surprise anymore. Just "oh, here we are again"
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46187460
Well, here we do go again.
Except that this is the other gun problem - police killing someone because he is black.
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A note from Adam Gopnik in the latest edition of the New Yorker:
As the pace of mass shootings seems only to intensify, the possibility of action, at least on a federal level, seems to recede. It is overwhelmingly clear that the majority of Americans want to move away from the misread Second Amendment madness toward comprehensive gun sanity—and just as clear that no national political path forward can be found right now. Not because not enough people want it but because the deep democratic deficits in our system, which have been making themselves felt in so many spheres recently, prevent it. An electoral system designed from its inception to give undue weight to rural white men is giving undue weight to rural white men who, for whatever reason, value weapons at the expense of lives.
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If it is true that "a majority of Americans" want to reform gun ownership law then there should be, at least, some hope that this can be achieved.
Of course, it is this "democratic defect" which gave the keys of the White House to Donald Trump - not that he would accept that. Unless there is some move to rectify this constitutional distortion then Americans must face a future in which their nation will become more and more isolated from civilised norms.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46270195
And so it goes on, this time in a hospital in Chicago! :o
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48481814
This time the gun massacre was in Virginia with 12 people dead. There have been 150 such massacres in the US this year. >:(
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Sometimes I think this thread should be pinned. That's just a depressing thought.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48481814
This time the gun massacre was in Virginia with 12 people dead. There have been 150 such massacres in the US this year. >:(
It does not matter nothing will change soon
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It does not matter nothing will change soon
Agreed! >:(
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Sometimes I think this thread should be pinned. That's just a depressing thought.
If we dealt with knife crime here, the US might take note and deal with it's gun crime.
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If we dealt with knife crime here, the US might take note and deal with it's gun crime.
You are joking of course!
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If we dealt with knife crime here, the US might take note and deal with it's gun crime.
No.
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You are joking of course!
No, there is no point judging the US if we can't sort out our own crime. More police on the street.
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No, there is no point judging the US if we can't sort out our own crime. More police on the street.
We don't permit people to carry knives or guns here in the UK. No it doesn't stop knife or gun crime, but at least we don't have the number of massacres they have in the US because everyone, including kids, seem to be permitted to own a gun. When my daughter and her family were in the US a year or two back they were shocked to see you could buy guns at Walmart when buying your groceries! :o
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Yes it's a scary place, but no more than east London. The numbers killed must be similar relative to the size of the populations.
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Yes it's a scary place, but no more than east London.
I think it is a lot scarier than even east London, as people have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions afterwards.
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What an insult to Eastenders Spud. There are dodgy areas all over London and cities generally but you can't write off an entire section in one sweeping statement. Plenty of good, safe places in East London, fashionable too.
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What an insult to Eastenders Spud. There are dodgy areas all over London and cities generally but you can't write off an entire section in one sweeping statement. Plenty of good, safe places in East London, fashionable too.
The east end of that city seems to seems to fair the worst when it comes to knife. I am so very glad I don't live there. My husband is a Londoner by birth and was glad to abandon the place when we married.
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I think it is a lot scarier than even east London, as people have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions afterwards.
Just checked, and the homicide rate in the US is about 4 times what it is here, so you are right. Are you sure about your statistics in #35, the BBC website says 90 mass shootings between 1982 and 2012.
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Wiki says 7 in 2019
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Just checked, and the homicide rate in the US is about 4 times what it is here, so you are right. Are you sure about your statistics in #35, the BBC website says 90 mass shootings between 1982 and 2012.
The BBC website mentions 150 shootings of this nature since January.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48481814
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The BBC website mentions 150 shootings of this nature since January.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48481814
Roger roge, my mistake.
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If we dealt with knife crime here, the US might take note and deal with it's gun crime.
Huh?
Our knife crime problem is nowhere near as bad as the US gun crime problem. For example, the latest mass shooting in the US is the 150th mass shooting this year. Last year there were about 750 knife related homicides in the UK. In 2017, the USA had nearly fifteen thousand gun homicides. The US population is only about five times ours.
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Yes it's a scary place, but no more than east London. The numbers killed must be similar relative to the size of the populations.
Lol! What's scary about east London?
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He's thinking of the Seven Dials and Alsatia.
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The pollution in London has suddenly got worse now a certain person has landed! >:(
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Huh?
Our knife crime problem is nowhere near as bad as the US gun crime problem. For example, the latest mass shooting in the US is the 150th mass shooting this year. Last year there were about 750 knife related homicides in the UK. In 2017, the USA had nearly fifteen thousand gun homicides. The US population is only about five times ours.
When nobody is being murdered here then we can criticize the US.
Gun crime is easy to control, as they aren't essential for living so can be banned. Basically we await a generation in the US with the sense to do it.
But you can't really ban knives. Capital punishment doesn't seem to be an effective deterrent against murder in general. The issue may be the effectiveness of rehabilitation of offenders before they commit more serious crime. That's about the best thing I can come up with (not being an expert).
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No, there is no point judging the US if we can't sort out our own crime. More police on the street.
We have quite strict laws about the carrying of knives.
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We have quite strict laws about the carrying of knives.
Also need measures to enforce them. Recent increased stop and search has apparently been very effective.
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When nobody is being murdered here then we can criticize the US.
Nah. We can criticise them now.
Gun crime is easy to control, as they aren't essential for living so can be banned. Basically we await a generation in the US with the sense to do it.
It's not easy to control in the USA thanks to the Second Amendment and a very powerful lobby on behalf of gun owners and manufacturers.
But you can't really ban knives.
It's illegal to carry a knife in the UK without a good reason. They are effectively banned in public places already. Upholding the ban is another matter though.
Capital punishment doesn't seem to be an effective deterrent against murder in general. The issue may be the effectiveness of rehabilitation of offenders before they commit more serious crime. That's about the best thing I can come up with (not being an expert).
We agree on capital punishment but that issue is orthogonal to the problem of gun crime.
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I love guns and whenever we took a holiday in Florida a highlight for me was to go to the gun range.
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I love guns and whenever we took a holiday in Florida a highlight for me was to go to the gun range.
How can anyone one 'love' guns when they kills so money people? :o
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How can anyone one 'love' guns when they kills so money people? :o
Well, I'm guessing it's because they enjoy the skill of shooting at targets. I it is considered a sport. I have no objection to that at all. I have in the distant past taken part in shooting competitions at country fairs and the like. Very enjoyable.
The argument is weak, how can one love cars when they kill so many people?
The key to the issue lies in effective legislation and control, not criticising people for enjoying something, be that guns or cars.
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It's illegal to carry a knife in the UK without a good reason.
Not quite true. Folding knives with non-lockable blades that are 3" long or less, and can't be opened quickly by just pressing a button or something, are street-legal. I carry a Victorinox multi-tool every day, and it comes in hady for all sorts of things.
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How can anyone one 'love' guns when they kills so money people? :o
Easy I love guns, but I do not want to kill anything
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How can anyone one 'love' guns when they kills so money people? :o
There are a couple of historic gun channels (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrfKGpvbEQXcbe68dzXgJuA) on Youtube that I quite enjoy. There is one in particular that has a series on gunsmithing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-BWo2RPhyA&list=PLJvsSlrbdhn4PDXdIuLKWJCkVEu4i2HAV) that I find completely addictive. These channels could not exist in the UK for obvious reasons, so I am conflicted. Basically, people die in the USA so I can have my entertainment.
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Not quite true. Folding knives with non-lockable blades that are 3" long or less, and can't be opened quickly by just pressing a button or something, are street-legal. I carry a Victorinox multi-tool every day, and it comes in hady for all sorts of things.
ha ha, that's not a knife This is a knife (https://youtu.be/WWl8EbNN8NM?t=26)
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There are a couple of historic gun channels (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrfKGpvbEQXcbe68dzXgJuA) on Youtube that I quite enjoy. There is one in particular that has a series on gunsmithing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-BWo2RPhyA&list=PLJvsSlrbdhn4PDXdIuLKWJCkVEu4i2HAV) that I find completely addictive. These channels could not exist in the UK for obvious reasons, so I am conflicted. Basically, people die in the USA so I can have my entertainment.
jeremyp
that channel looks highly interesting , thanks . Now I've got another subject to get immersed in late at night
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Two more in quick succession https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49224816
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Two more in quick succession https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49221936 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49224816
Hmm... must be summer ...
My wife says it is always men, is that true? Why?
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Hmm... must be summer ...
My wife says it is always men, is that true? Why?
The phrase "toxic masculinity" crops up in American English with alarming regularity. I've not heard a definition of it yet, but perhaps that would explain the reason why it is predominantly men who commit these crimes. Furthermore, white men.
To me it's almost as if all the racists and bigots that we thought we'd ( we = loosely speaking Western society) dealt with so well have suddenly been emboldened (Trump = enabler in chief) and decided to do the thing they do best. :(
This gives more figures and possible reasons/motives:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
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That dangerous racist clown in the White House is blaming mental health issues for the massacres! It is much more likely his racist white supremacist attitude and the crazy gun laws in the US encourage these evil outrages. >:(
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Well, at least he is admitting to his mental health issues. ???
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Well, at least he is admitting to his mental health issues. ???
I wish. I believe he refused to have his mental health tested when standing for president!
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I wish. I believe he refused to have his mental health tested when standing for president!
I think Ekim is referring to the "shooter", not the president.
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I think Ekim is referring to the "shooter", not the president.
I'll vote with LR here, I think ekim was jokingly referring to Trump.
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The phrase "toxic masculinity" crops up in American English with alarming regularity. I've not heard a definition of it yet, but perhaps that would explain the reason why it is predominantly men who commit these crimes. Furthermore, white men.
To me it's almost as if all the racists and bigots that we thought we'd ( we = loosely speaking Western society) dealt with so well have suddenly been emboldened (Trump = enabler in chief) and decided to do the thing they do best. :(
This gives more figures and possible reasons/motives:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
Yes, that seems to confirm it:
- access to guns
- loners (ie. poor communicators)
- low esteem (eg. due to bullying)
- poor at handling loss (eg. divorce)
All more likely for men.
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The UK might be far from perfect, by compared with the US with Trump as president it is a shining star on the face of the planet.
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The UK might be far from perfect, by compared with the US with Trump as president it is a shining star on the face of the planet.
Gun massacres happened pre Trump and we have our own dangerous narcissist PM
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So President Racist has now issued a statement on the two mass shootings this weekend, blaming the internet, 'violent video games', mental health and social media, which of course don't exist anywhere else in the Western World.
However, the respondents jumping in with 'Gun Control' arguments continue to fail to appreciate the nuance of America's gun issues.
Some other countries have significant gun numbers, and also don't have mass shootings on the scale or frequency of the US, so gun control isn't the only thing that might work. More significantly, American gun deaths in general (including but not limited to just those in mass shootings) occur in quantities disproportionate to the level of gun ownership. It's not just the ready presence of firearms that's the issue, it's the American attitude towards those firearms, and if that isn't addressed then all the gun control in the world isn't going to help.
O.
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Gun massacres happened pre Trump and we have our own dangerous narcissist PM
Yes they did, but some of the deadliest have occurred since Trump became president or so I have just been reading.
As for Boris, as bad as he might be, he is not nearly as bad as Trump, imo.
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Yes they did, but some of the deadliest have occurred since Trump became president or so I have just been reading.
As for Boris, as bad as he might be, he is not nearly as bad as Trump, imo.
Correlation does not mean causation.
And assertion.
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So President Racist has now issued a statement on the two mass shootings this weekend, blaming the internet, 'violent video games', mental health and social media, which of course don't exist anywhere else in the Western World.
However, the respondents jumping in with 'Gun Control' arguments continue to fail to appreciate the nuance of America's gun issues.
Some other countries have significant gun numbers, and also don't have mass shootings on the scale or frequency of the US, so gun control isn't the only thing that might work. More significantly, American gun deaths in general (including but not limited to just those in mass shootings) occur in quantities disproportionate to the level of gun ownership. It's not just the ready presence of firearms that's the issue, it's the American attitude towards those firearms, and if that isn't addressed then all the gun control in the world isn't going to help.
O.
And yet the murders predate Trump. Did Obama cause Sandy Hook? Is there a problem? Yep. Is that problem Trump? Not if you believe numbers. Is Trump a problem? Quite possibly but you need to understand the issue.
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And yet the murders predate Trump. Did Obama cause Sandy Hook? Is there a problem? Yep. Is that problem Trump? Not if you believe numbers. Is Trump a problem? Quite possibly but you need to understand the issue.
Sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest that Trump was in any way causative in this - I don't think he's helping, but I think there's something fundamentally awry with the American love of guns that goes beyond administrations and into something cultural.
Trump's election is a result of that culture, perhaps a symbol of where it's heading in some ways, but it's not the cause of it.
O.
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Sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest that Trump was in any way causative in this - I don't think he's helping, but I think there's something fundamentally awry with the American love of guns that goes beyond administrations and into something cultural.
Trump's election is a result of that culture, perhaps a symbol of where it's heading in some ways, but it's not the cause of it.
O.
My apologies for the misreading. The deaths from guns in the States goes down, and yet the massacres go up. It is more complex than we view it.
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So President Racist has now issued a statement on the two mass shootings this weekend, blaming the internet, 'violent video games', mental health and social media, which of course don't exist anywhere else in the Western World.
However, the respondents jumping in with 'Gun Control' arguments continue to fail to appreciate the nuance of America's gun issues.
Some other countries have significant gun numbers, and also don't have mass shootings on the scale or frequency of the US, so gun control isn't the only thing that might work. More significantly, American gun deaths in general (including but not limited to just those in mass shootings) occur in quantities disproportionate to the level of gun ownership. It's not just the ready presence of firearms that's the issue, it's the American attitude towards those firearms, and if that isn't addressed then all the gun control in the world isn't going to help.
O.
I think violence on the TV is another factor. Last night I watched 'London has fallen', a 2016 film with rampant shooting and stabbing. Viewers must surely be becoming increasingly de-sensitized to this kind of violence, hence the increasing knife crime here.
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(we have also become de-sensitized to the f-word)
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(we have also become de-sensitized to the f-word)
Fascist?
O.
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However, the respondents jumping in with 'Gun Control' arguments continue to fail to appreciate the nuance of America's gun issues.
In that case many Americans continue to fail to appreciate the nuances of America's gun issues.
Some other countries have significant gun numbers, and also don't have mass shootings on the scale or frequency of the US,
Correlations are rarely perfect , but just because they aren't doesn't mean there is no causal relationship. I'm sure we all know of people who smoked twenty a day and went on to live to be 90, but none of us doubt smoking is a health risk.
so gun control isn't the only thing that might work.
I don't think anybody is suggesting you can't do other things as well as control guns, but they obviously do need to control guns.
More significantly, American gun deaths in general (including but not limited to just those in mass shootings) occur in quantities disproportionate to the level of gun ownership.
Do they? Do you think they have disproportionately more gun deaths or disproportionately fewer gun deaths than they should?
It's not just the ready presence of firearms that's the issue, it's the American attitude towards those firearms, and if that isn't addressed then all the gun control in the world isn't going to help.
That's bullshit.
If you could miraculously introduce British gun laws into the USA, no matter what the attitude of the people, there would definitely be fewer gun deaths. You can't kill people with a gun if you can't get hold of one.
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I think violence on the TV is another factor. Last night I watched 'London has fallen', a 2016 film with rampant shooting and stabbing. Viewers must surely be becoming increasingly de-sensitized to this kind of violence, hence the increasing knife crime here.
Err, no.
Violent films are available in the UK and yet we don't have a gun homicide rate anything like that of the USA. The same applies to most developed countries even ones with more relaxed gun control laws.
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Some numbers
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081
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I think violence on the TV is another factor. Last night I watched 'London has fallen', a 2016 film with rampant shooting and stabbing. Viewers must surely be becoming increasingly de-sensitized to this kind of violence, hence the increasing knife crime here.
Except the rate of violent crime has generally been falling. So facts have fucked your assertion.
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I think violence on the TV is another factor. Last night I watched 'London has fallen', a 2016 film with rampant shooting and stabbing. Viewers must surely be becoming increasingly de-sensitized to this kind of violence, hence the increasing knife crime here.
Did watching it make you want to go out and try to kill people? I din t understand the anecdote part, there.
As to the idea that TV violence (and video game violence) might be linked to actual violence, the research is mixed at best, and video games are pretty reliably not a good indicator.
O.
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Correlations are rarely perfect , but just because they aren't doesn't mean there is no causal relationship. I'm sure we all know of people who smoked twenty a day and went on to live to be 90, but none of us doubt smoking is a health risk.
An individual, perhaps, but the point of correlation is that over a larger sample - say an entire nation - Those individual quirks are accommodated.
I don't think anybody is suggesting you can't do other things as well as control guns, but they obviously do need to control guns.
Agreed.
Do they? Do you think they have disproportionately more gun deaths or disproportionately fewer gun deaths than they should?
My understanding is that they have significantly more gun death sentence per capita than anywhere in the world that isn't a war zone, and my personal take is each of them is one too many.
That's bullshit.
Poor phrasing on my part, I'm out of practice on here :) It would help, obviously, but I have reservations about whether it would be enough to bring America in line with the rest of the world.
If you could miraculously introduce British gun laws into the USA, no matter what the attitude of the people, there would definitely be fewer gun deaths. You can't kill people with a gun if you can't get hold of one.
Fewer, yes, but introducing UK style gun laws wouldn't change the underlying culture, and the sheer volume of firearms at large in the US would make implementation of those laws problematic, I think.
Not that I can envision anything if that sort of strength being even considered, let alone passed through their legislature.
O.
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I have just been looking up violent crime on a BBC website and it says here in the UK it is up by 19%.
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The UK might be far from perfect, by compared with the US with Trump as president it is a shining star on the face of the planet.
Not any more, with Boris Badenough in charge.
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Not any more, with Boris Badenough in charge.
Even with Boris in charge.
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Did watching it make you want to go out and try to kill people? I din t understand the anecdote part, there.
I will confess that the following day I kicked a stool in anger and also said something I wouldn't normally say and regretted it. Whether that was a result of watching the film I can't be sure.
As to the idea that TV violence (and video game violence) might be linked to actual violence, the research is mixed at best, and video games are pretty reliably not a good indicator.
O.
I've found a study that shows a reduction in neural activity in an area of the brain associated with the regulation of aggression, when subjects were exposed to violence in films. While it doesn't mean that exposure to such media will cause a non-aggressive person to become criminally aggressive, it does suggest that an already aggressive person could become so. And since the study was carried out on adults, one could hypothesize that those with built-in aggression may have been exposed to more media violence during development (eg violence in cartoons - Tom & Jerry etc).
"Repeated Exposure to Media Violence Is Associated with Diminished Response in an Inhibitory Frontolimbic Network"
https://tinyurl.com/y3vw4m4p
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An individual, perhaps, but the point of correlation is that over a larger sample - say an entire nation - Those individual quirks are accommodated.
But never perfectly.
My understanding is that they have significantly more gun death sentence per capita than anywhere in the world that isn't a war zone, and my personal take is each of them is one too many.
But they also have more significantly more guns per person than anywhere else in the World that isn't a war zone.
Actually I'm not a fan of the "guns per person statistic". The USA has more than one gun per person but what really counts is how many people own guns. There are around 400 million guns in the USA in private ownership. If they were all owned by one person, it would be less of a problem than if everybody had one gun.
Poor phrasing on my part, I'm out of practice on here :) It would help, obviously, but I have reservations about whether it would be enough to bring America in line with the rest of the world.
Even just helping would result in lives saved.
Fewer, yes, but introducing UK style gun laws wouldn't change the underlying culture, and the sheer volume of firearms at large in the US would make implementation of those laws problematic, I think.
Not that I can envision anything if that sort of strength being even considered, let alone passed through their legislature.
I did use the word "miraculously" :) We will not see UK style laws in the US for a long time, but that is not an excuse to not start the ball rolling on something.
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I will confess that the following day I kicked a stool in anger and also said something I wouldn't normally say and regretted it. Whether that was a result of watching the film I can't be sure.
I've found a study that shows a reduction in neural activity in an area of the brain associated with the regulation of aggression, when subjects were exposed to violence in films. While it doesn't mean that exposure to such media will cause a non-aggressive person to become criminally aggressive, it does suggest that an already aggressive person could become so. And since the study was carried out on adults, one could hypothesize that those with built-in aggression may have been exposed to more media violence during development (eg violence in cartoons - Tom & Jerry etc).
"Repeated Exposure to Media Violence Is Associated with Diminished Response in an Inhibitory Frontolimbic Network"
https://tinyurl.com/y3vw4m4p
There have been studies done measuring the actual effect of playing video games on real life violence. No correlation has been found. The idea that video games or films are the cause of the current craze for mass shootings or gun crime in general is just a red herring.
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There have been studies done measuring the actual effect of playing video games on real life violence. No correlation has been found. The idea that video games or films are the cause of the current craze for mass shootings or gun crime in general is just a red herring.
Maybe, maybe not, but those sort of games can't do a person's mindset any good, imo . My children would not have been permitted to play those sort of video games had the Internet been around when they were children.
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Maybe, maybe not, but those sort of games can't do a person's mindset any good, imo . My children would not have been permitted to play those sort of video games had the Internet been around when they were children.
And that's why the games industry has an age rating system that huge numbers of parents blatantly ignore in a way that they wouldn't to the same extent with film ratings - which, it's worth remembering, were also once linked to violence without any reliable evidence ever being presented.
There are violent depictions in all of the art through history - does the Bayeux Tapestry incite violence with all the depictions of axes and arrows? - because art, amongst other things, explores the extremes of the human situation. The human propensity for violence feeds art - including film and video games - as much as, if not more than, the other way round.
O.
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And that's why the games industry has an age rating system that huge numbers of parents blatantly ignore in a way that they wouldn't to the same extent with film ratings - which, it's worth remembering, were also once linked to violence without any reliable evidence ever being presented.
There are violent depictions in all of the art through history - does the Bayeux Tapestry incite violence with all the depictions of axes and arrows? - because art, amongst other things, explores the extremes of the human situation. The human propensity for violence feeds art - including film and video games - as much as, if not more than, the other way round.
O.
Static art, however violent, isn't quite in the same league as violent video games, which many children play for hours each day.
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Static art, however violent, isn't quite in the same league as violent video games, which many children play for hours each day.
In the same league for what? Entertainment - that's a subjective, I'd say, but I'd personally agree with you. For its influence on the real-world expressions of violence - the evidence suggests that's it pretty much exactly the same, which is to say 'none'.
O.
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Maybe, maybe not, but those sort of games can't do a person's mindset any good, imo
There's no maybe about it. It is as certain as it can be that there is no such link.
My children would not have been permitted to play those sort of video games had the Internet been around when they were children.
But if you had allowed them to play those sorts of video games it would not have increased their chances of becoming mass murderers.
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There's no maybe about it. It is as certain as it can be that there is no such link.
But if you had allowed them to play those sorts of video games it would not have increased their chances of becoming mass murderers.
Maybe not, but I don't think it would have done them any good either.
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Maybe not, but I don't think it would have done them any good either.
Better they get out in the fresh air and play Cowboys and Indians?
O.
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Better they get out in the fresh air and play Cowboys and Indians?
O.
As well as playing health improving games outside, my husband used to play all sort of board games with the children, which were good for their intellect. Our eldest girl enjoyed playing 'space lines' with him a sort of three dimensional noughts and crosses. By the time she was 6 years old he couldn't beat her, and she couldn't beat him, it was stalemate! :D
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As well as playing health improving games outside, my husband used to play all sort of board games with the children, which were good for their intellect. Our eldest girl enjoyed playing 'space lines' with him a sort of three dimensional noughts and crosses. By the time she was 6 years old he couldn't beat her, and she couldn't beat him, it was stalemate! :D
And I played dexterity and abstract thought improving games with my eldest on Playstation, co-operative strategy games with him on-line when he was at university, and now with our youngest I'm starting to play some that work on hand-eye co-ordination and educational things on dinosaur genera - as well, of course, as regular trips to the park.
My eldest keeps up with his various friends and family across the world while they play on-line.
There are benefits to gaming, and as such there's nothing wrong with making them a part of a child's upbringing.
O.
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And I played dexterity and abstract thought improving games with my eldest on Playstation, co-operative strategy games with him on-line when he was at university, and now with our youngest I'm starting to play some that work on hand-eye co-ordination and educational things on dinosaur genera - as well, of course, as regular trips to the park.
My eldest keeps up with his various friends and family across the world while they play on-line.
There are benefits to gaming, and as such there's nothing wrong with making them a part of a child's upbringing.
O.
The trouble is, many kids don't seem to do anything else, which is definitely not healthy.
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The trouble is, many kids don't seem to do anything else, which is definitely not healthy.
Is it what they're doing, then, that's unhealthy, or the limited range of what they're doing? Is it any better for people's general wellbeing to be out in the park until all hours kicking a ball around to the exclusion of everything else? They'll be physically fitter, probably, but will their reading be up to spec, will they have the fine motor skills to do precision work, will they be able to type at a reasonable speed?
I'd suggest that fixation on any single thing is going to be detrimental to a developing mind - one of the things that makes the all-consuming passions of children so hard to bear - and that it's not intrinsically gaming that is the issue in that situation, as the lack of anything else in their life.
O.
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Is it what they're doing, then, that's unhealthy, or the limited range of what they're doing? Is it any better for people's general wellbeing to be out in the park until all hours kicking a ball around to the exclusion of everything else? They'll be physically fitter, probably, but will their reading be up to spec, will they have the fine motor skills to do precision work, will they be able to type at a reasonable speed?
I'd suggest that fixation on any single thing is going to be detrimental to a developing mind - one of the things that makes the all-consuming passions of children so hard to bear - and that it's not intrinsically gaming that is the issue in that situation, as the lack of anything else in their life.
O.
Physical exercise is most important, too many kids are very overweight these day. Of course they need to study to keep their minds active, but playing computer games for hours on end isn't the way to do it, reading books of an educational nature is far better imo.
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The trouble is, many kids don't seem to do anything else, which is definitely not healthy.
Evidence?
Thought not.
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I just want to reiterate the following:
Studies have been done on the relationship between violent video games and actual violence: no link has been found. None.Let's stop obsessing with something that isn't a problem.
Meanwhile, about those guns...
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Physical exercise is most important, too many kids are very overweight these day. Of course they need to study to keep their minds active, but playing computer games for hours on end isn't the way to do it, reading books of an educational nature is far better imo.
Physical exercise is, probably, important - there are some studies that suggest diet is far more important in our health (as opposed to fitness) than exercise. Whether it's the 'most' important is questionable - is it better a life to be eminently employable and die at 65 or minimum wage but fit until you're 90?
As to the idea that there is no educational value in games but an intrinsic education value in books I'll pitch the historically well-informed and elucidating Assassin's Creed series against, say, Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings (both of which, to be clear, I'd heartily recommend).
O.
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Physical exercise is, probably, important - there are some studies that suggest diet is far more important in our health (as opposed to fitness) than exercise. Whether it's the 'most' important is questionable - is it better a life to be eminently employable and die at 65 or minimum wage but fit until you're 90?
Someone on the minimum wage is most umlikely to be fit until 90, and there is no reason why someone with a desireable job and a reasonably high income should die in their 60s: the job may be sedentary, but they will have the education and intelligence to know the value of physical and mental exercise, and be able to eat a good, balanced diet.
As to the idea that there is no educational value in games but an intrinsic education value in books I'll pitch the historically well-informed and elucidating Assassin's Creed series against, say, Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings (both of which, to be clear, I'd heartily recommend).
There are lots of books not worth reading, and some downright harmful ones, and there may be some computer games with some educational value, but it remains true that, broadly speaking, books, and traditional, outdoor play, are better than computer games for kids.
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Someone on the minimum wage is most umlikely to be fit until 90, and there is no reason why someone with a desireable job and a reasonably high income should die in their 60s: the job may be sedentary, but they will have the education and intelligence to know the value of physical and mental exercise, and be able to eat a good, balanced diet.
Someone on minimum wage is a little more likely to be fit until old age, as they are more likely to have a job that involves considerable movement and manual handling elements. Unfortunately, they are more likely to suffer mobility issues from degradation in that old age as they have worked harder for longer.
There are lots of books not worth reading, and some downright harmful ones, and there may be some computer games with some educational value, but it remains true that, broadly speaking, books, and traditional, outdoor play, are better than computer games for kids.
And, again, that's still to an extent an apples and oranges comparison - they have differing benefits (and opportunity costs) but neither is inherently better than the other.
O.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49540160
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49540160
It's getting hard to keep track of these. Is this another new one?
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It's getting hard to keep track of these. Is this another new one?
Yep.
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There are so many of these gun massacres across the pond they are just part of day to day life, almost! >:(
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Not a massacre, just the two teenagers murdered. Hardly news at all. But an utter tragedy.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50422956
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And following on from that
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/18/california-mass-shootings-gun-violence-control?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3OXptTmNg-2o9paTkPPcpuMsrJMSKe92xTDHDwcMTRgg1CLvvQ1VrPmrQ#Echobox=1574110165
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As I have said before I am so grateful I don't live in the US where guns are so prolific. Why on earth can't they see owning a gun doesn't make you any more safe? ::)
The fact this thread is now a sticky, goes to show how we are going to be coming back to the topic over and over again, as there are massacres on such a regular basis. :o
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As I have said before I am so grateful I don't live in the US where guns are so prolific. Why on earth can't they see owning a gun doesn't make you any more safe? ::)
The fact this thread is now a sticky, goes to show how we are going to be coming back to the topic over and over again, as there are massacres on such a regular basis. :o
Pedant alert, prolific is the wrong word there, and is wrong in an ironic way.
The thing is those supporting gun ownership see it as a right and then because it has inherent danger, see it as counter acting that danger. The second amendment is seen as being about freedom.
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Pedant alert
I think that should be "pedantry". After all, you are notifying us that there is about to be some pedantry. You are not warning us that a pedant has suddenly appeared.
, prolific is the wrong word there, and is wrong in an ironic way.
I don't get the irony although I agree it is the wrong word. I would have used "ubiquitous".
The thing is those supporting gun ownership see it as a right and then because it has inherent danger, see it as counter acting that danger. The second amendment is seen as being about freedom.
Yes, you are right about 2A symbolising freedom from interference from the government. There's a guy on Youtube called Paul Harrell who posts videos about guns. They're never political and always focus on the technicalities of owning and using guns. However, the one thing he does say is that as an American you have a right to own a gun and a right to vote and you should exercise both. He seems to put them both on the same level of importance.
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I think that should be "pedantry". After all, you are notifying us that there is about to be some pedantry. You are not warning us that a pedant has suddenly appeared.
I don't get the irony although I agree it is the wrong word. I would have used "ubiquitous".
Yes, you are right about 2A symbolising freedom from interference from the government. There's a guy on Youtube called Paul Harrell who posts videos about guns. They're never political and always focus on the technicalities of owning and using guns. However, the one thing he does say is that as an American you have a right to own a gun and a right to vote and you should exercise both. He seems to put them both on the same level of importance.
Yep, fair point about pedant/pedantry.
Where I saw the irony was in using a word that means amongst other things producing young on a thread discussing killings with guns.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50619957
11 people have been shot in an incident in New Orleans! :o
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And six more dead - though this seems to have been more of a gunfight
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50737537
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46002549
This time at a synagogue! >:(
Whose fault was it this time?
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Whose fault was it this time?
Trump supporting the right to bear arms.
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Trump supporting the right to bear arms.
If there were no guns would the massacre still have happened?
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If there were no guns would the massacre still have happened?
Of course not.
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Trump supporting the right to bear arms.
Michelle Obama exercising her right to bare arms. (https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/02/article-1158643-03B17109000005DC-306_468x617.jpg)
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Just a wholesome family picture! Sick in the head, more like!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59543735
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Powerful stuff:
https://youtu.be/vPvf5RgCU08
The NRA and those senators should hang their heads in shame.
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Powerful stuff:
https://youtu.be/vPvf5RgCU08
The NRA and those senators should hang their heads in shame.
Totally agree of course. It is so deeply saddening.
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The Second Amendment should be annulled. The USA has one of the largest professional armies in the world.
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The Second Amendment should be annulled. The USA has one of the largest professional armies in the world.
Part of the justification for the 2nd amendment is exactly because of that professional army - the capacity for the populace to create a militia to fight back against the government. Absolute nonsense in a practical sense, of course...
The thing is, there are other places with shitloads of guns (even if the US is still an outlier), and this sort of thing just doesn't happen in those places.
The US has 120 guns per 100 people, compared to England and Wales' 5 or Australia's 14. But, Saudi Arabia has in excess of 50, Serbia 40, Montenegro also 40, and these gun death rates aren't even close, whilst El Salvador, Guatemala and Venezuela lead the gun death rates despite ownership rates of 12, 12.1 and 18.5 respectively.
It's also worth noting the US isn't even in the top 10 for gun deaths per capita, but it's #2 for suicides by firearm per capita, and it's the only country in the world with an appreciable rate of deaths in mass shootings.
If the guns weren't there these suicides would likely be lower (there's some evidence that more people survive other suicide attempts more frequently, and fail to complete attempts by other means more often), and the mass attacks would likely be less frequent, less deadly and have fewer victims. However, culturally the US isn't in a position to wholesale ban the sale of guns like the UK and Australia have done.
The culture of gun use, gun ownership and the depiction of firearms in everyday life in the US is the problem - other people have guns and they don't get used like this. It's a culture that has to change, and if that changes then the wholesale control of gun ownership won't be necessary, but if it doesn't change then the wholesale control of guns isn't a possibility anyway.
It seems that Americans are just too invested in their 'rights' and not invested enough in the responsibilities that come along with those rights, and until that changes these deaths are going to continue to happen.
O.
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The NRA and those senators should hang their heads in shame.
For them gun massacres are an acceptable sacrifice if it means they keep their guns. Their only solution is more guns. Inbreds, the lot of them! It's the only explanation.
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Is it really a person's right to own a firearm? I would say it is a privilege, that should be earned.
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Is it really a person's right to own a firearm? I would say it is a privilege, that should be earned.
It's a right if society decides that it's a right. US society has so decided, with disastrous results.
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For them gun massacres are an acceptable sacrifice if it means they keep their guns. Their only solution is more guns. Inbreds, the lot of them! It's the only explanation.
75% of Americans think there should be stricter gun controls. The problem is that the 25% have undue influence and the arms industry makes a lot of money.
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Is it really a person's right to own a firearm? I would say it is a privilege, that should be earned.
What kind of a society would you prefer to live in: one where you can only do things the government says are legal or one where you can do anything except what the government says is illegal.
I would argue that the USA and, indeed, the UK fall into the second category. You have a right to do whatever you like unless the government says you can't and that includes owning guns.
In the UK, the government has said you can't own a gun but we don't regard it as a problem because even two mass shootings were deemed by almost everybody to be an unacceptable price to pay to keep the right.
In the USA there is a problem because the government can't make laws to ban guns, at least not all of them, because of the US Constitution and there are enough people and enough money to stop that clause from being repealed. What's more, it's been shown that, even if there was the political will to repeal the Second Amendment, the people with guns think it's OK to try to overthrow a democratic decision by force.
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What kind of a society would you prefer to live in: one where you can only do things the government says are legal or one where you can do anything except what the government says is illegal.
I would argue that the USA and, indeed, the UK fall into the second category. You have a right to do whatever you like unless the government says you can't and that includes owning guns.
In the UK, the government has said you can't own a gun but we don't regard it as a problem because even two mass shootings were deemed by almost everybody to be an unacceptable price to pay to keep the right.
In the USA there is a problem because the government can't make laws to ban guns, at least not all of them, because of the US Constitution and there are enough people and enough money to stop that clause from being repealed. What's more, it's been shown that, even if there was the political will to repeal the Second Amendment, the people with guns think it's OK to try to overthrow a democratic decision by force.
I love guns and would certainly own them if it was legal.
It's not legal, and I totally understand why, so too bad.
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What kind of a society would you prefer to live in: one where you can only do things the government says are legal or one where you can do anything except what the government says is illegal.
I don't think the first one is likely. What would be the point in, say, legislating that climbing trees, going for a run or doing a headstand is legal?
I would argue that the USA and, indeed, the UK fall into the second category. You have a right to do whatever you like unless the government says you can't and that includes owning guns.
In the UK, the government has said you can't own a gun but we don't regard it as a problem because even two mass shootings were deemed by almost everybody to be an unacceptable price to pay to keep the right.
In the USA there is a problem because the government can't make laws to ban guns, at least not all of them, because of the US Constitution and there are enough people and enough money to stop that clause from being repealed. What's more, it's been shown that, even if there was the political will to repeal the Second Amendment, the people with guns think it's OK to try to overthrow a democratic decision by force.
Does it have to be repealed, or just modified? Bring in licensing and allow anyone who gets through a rigorous testing regime to get one.
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I love guns and would certainly own them if it was legal.
It's not legal, and I totally understand why, so too bad.
If less people had them, less people would want them. The forming-a-militia thing doesn't seem practical since nowadays the government has control over more sophisticated weapons that would be impossible to fight against (?)
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If less people had them, less people would want them. The forming-a-militia thing doesn't seem practical since nowadays the government has control over more sophisticated weapons that would be impossible to fight against (?)
Look at the sort of people advocating for gun rights in the US, do these strike you as primarily 'practical' people?
It's deeper than that caricature, though, the US is culturally founded upon the idea that what makes them different is their cleaving to individual rights. They are a nation created out of the stance that individual rights outweigh other concerns, and it's become the bedrock of their sense of exceptionalism.
Whilst there are examples where they're quite happy to encroach on some people's rights (abortion, voting access etc.), so long as they can keep the 2nd amendment discussion as being about protecting individual rights they're going to have a great deal of success over there.
O.
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If less people had them, less people would want them. The forming-a-militia thing doesn't seem practical since nowadays the government has control over more sophisticated weapons that would be impossible to fight against (?)
The militia thing is not something I would be interested in.
I am in the UK and I like guns, but I cannot have them, so no problem
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View as human sacrifice practice of the US right?
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I don't think the first one is likely. What would be the point in, say, legislating that climbing trees, going for a run or doing a headstand is legal?
Does it have to be repealed, or just modified? Bring in licensing and allow anyone who gets through a rigorous testing regime to get one.
The Second Amendment says the US government cannot make laws to stop people from owning guns. Until it's repealed, there is always a danger that any gun control law can be struck down by the Supreme Court.
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The Second Amendment says the US government cannot make laws to stop people from owning guns. Until it's repealed, there is always a danger that any gun control law can be struck down by the Supreme Court.
But many staes already have stirct laws, so I doubt that.https://www.deseret.com/2022/5/27/23144447/states-with-the-strictest-gun-control-laws-mass-shooting-2nd-amendment-violent-crime-concealed-carry
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But many staes already have stirct laws, so I doubt that.https://www.deseret.com/2022/5/27/23144447/states-with-the-strictest-gun-control-laws-mass-shooting-2nd-amendment-violent-crime-concealed-carry
I think you need to tell us what your definition of "strict" is. Reading that list, none of the laws mentioned seem especially strict to me.
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I think you need to tell us what your definition of "strict" is. Reading that list, none of the laws mentioned seem especially strict to me.
Relatively strict - the sort of laws that the gun-control lobby would like to see nationally.
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Relatively strict - the sort of laws that the gun-control lobby would like to see nationally.
I think your generalising too much. There are some in the gun control lobby that would like to see laws that strict, but there are also some that would like to see laws as strict as the ones in the UK. Of course they know there is no chance of such laws in the near future.
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Interesting video from Full Frontal.
https://youtu.be/QL9hILfREL8
A correspondent interviews people going in to the NRA convention. Some of the highlights are discussing the question of whether it is too soon to talk about the Texas shooting. When people say yes, she asks if it is too soon to talk about Parkland or Sandy Hook.
The section about the Second Amendment is also quite telling. None of the interviewees knew what it actually says.
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That is a very interesting video. Of course, Americans do not understand irony.
I suspect many NRA members consider that unless there is a further constitutional amendment which gives children the right to achieve adulthood without being shot then school shootings will be commonplace.