Religion and Ethics Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve H on January 12, 2019, 03:58:18 PM

Title: Definitions
Post by: Steve H on January 12, 2019, 03:58:18 PM
Trump - a loud, offensive fart (British slang).
Trumpery (noun and adjective) - (articles that are) showy but worthless, delusive, or shallow.
T'rump - the buttocks (Yorkshire dialect).
T'rump - a small or unimportant remnant (Yorkshire dialect).
The last trump - the end of the world.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Roses on January 13, 2019, 08:51:09 AM
The sooner Trump is Trumped the better.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Owlswing on January 13, 2019, 11:46:23 AM

The sooner Trump is Trumped the better.


As long as he is firmly on the side of the NRA it ain't likely to happen . . . unfortuneately it is likely to get him his second term.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Roses on January 13, 2019, 11:51:30 AM
As long as he is firmly on the side of the NRA it ain't likely to happen . . . unfortuneately it is likely to get him his second term.


You could well be right, which is very depressing to say the least. :o
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Steve H on January 13, 2019, 12:29:42 PM
As was said somewhere else, either on here or on facebook, I can't remember which, the power of some lobby groups, both in America and here, is a scandal. They should be legally curtailed. Another example - about which the other post was - is AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which ensures that no anti-Zionist president will be elected, and ensures that all American politicians in any senior position kow-tow to Israel. There are some courageous Senators and Representatives who speak out against Israel's injustices and defend the Palestinian cause, especially Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, newly-elected, but their stand for justice ensures that they'll never progress.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: jeremyp on January 13, 2019, 01:25:26 PM
There are some courageous Senators and Representatives who speak out against Israel's injustices and defend the Palestinian cause,

The Palestinian cause is to wipe Israel off the map.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Steve H on January 13, 2019, 02:31:26 PM
The Palestinian cause is to wipe Israel off the map.
Nonsense - moderate Palestinians, and people of goodwill generally, want a peaceful, two-state solution. Personally, I prefer a one-state solution, with Israel as currently constituted ceasing to exist, and it and the Occupied Territories being replaced with a single new state, which would be a secular democracy, in which all religions had a guaranteed right to worship and use peaceful means to try to gain converts, but none had any special privileges, and in which all people of any race, creed or skin-colour had equal rights of immigration.The Palestinian refugres would have a right of return or compensation for a limited period after the founding of the state, say two years, after which everyone would be equal and no-one would have any special priviliges - just like (more or less) the USA, France, and many other mature democracies, in fact.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Owlswing on January 13, 2019, 05:33:38 PM

Nonsense - moderate Palestinians, and people of goodwill generally, want a peaceful, two-state solution. Personally, I prefer a one-state solution, with Israel as currently constituted ceasing to exist, and it and the Occupied Territories being replaced with a single new state, which would be a secular democracy, in which all religions had a guaranteed right to worship and use peaceful means to try to gain converts, but none had any special privileges, and in which all people of any race, creed or skin-colour had equal rights of immigration.The Palestinian refugres would have a right of return or compensation for a limited period after the founding of the state, say two years, after which everyone would be equal and no-one would have any special priviliges - just like (more or less) the USA, France, and many other mature democracies, in fact.


Sorry, Son, but you just lost me - I'm Jewish by birth, and the militant Palistinians are no different from the Nazi's (who wiped out vituallly all my Dutch Jewish ancestors in Holland at Auschwitz) in that they want the complete destruction of the Jewish nation and it is these Palistians, backed by hard-line Arab states, who call the tune, NOT the moderates.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: ad_orientem on January 13, 2019, 06:20:42 PM
Sorry, Son, but you just lost me - I'm Jewish by birth, and the militant Palistinians are no different from the Nazi's (who wiped out vituallly all my Dutch Jewish ancestors in Holland at Auschwitz) in that they want the complete destruction of the Jewish nation and it is these Palistians, backed by hard-line Arab states, who call the tune, NOT the moderates.

That's rather ironic, isn't it, because you look at Gaza and the West Bank Israel's stronghold on them is not much different to that of the Jewish ghettos in Nazi Germany. You would have thought they'd learnt some compasion.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: jeremyp on January 13, 2019, 07:25:48 PM
Nonsense - moderate Palestinians, and people of goodwill generally, want a peaceful, two-state solution.
So do moderate Israelis. However, it isn’t the moderates that are the problem.



Quote
Personally, I prefer a one-state solution, with Israel as currently constituted ceasing to exist, and it and the Occupied Territories being replaced with a single new state, which would be a secular democracy, in which all religions had a guaranteed right to worship and use peaceful means to try to gain converts, but none had any special privileges, and in which all people of any race, creed or skin-colour had equal rights of immigration.
That’s closer to the current state of Israel than the Palestinian controlled territories. If you’re gay, a woman or the wrong religion, you are better off in Israel than in the Palestinian areas.

Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: jeremyp on January 13, 2019, 07:33:44 PM
That's rather ironic, isn't it, because you look at Gaza and the West Bank Israel's stronghold on them is not much different to that of the Jewish ghettos in Nazi Germany. You would have thought they'd learnt some compasion.
Gaza is controlled by a Palestinian terrorist organisations called Hamas.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: ad_orientem on January 13, 2019, 07:56:44 PM
Gaza is controlled by a Palestinian terrorist organisations called Hamas.

As is often said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I'm not saying my comparison is exact. My point was that after what Jews suffered under the Nazi's Israel, a Jewish state, would act a little more sympathetically.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: jeremyp on January 13, 2019, 08:01:46 PM
As is often said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I'm not saying my comparison is exact.
In this man’s book, an organization that makes use of suicide bombers and home made rockets to target civilians is a terrorist organization.

Quote
My point was that after what Jews suffered under the Nazi's Israel, a Jewish state, would act a little more sympathetically.
Huh? The “Nazi’s Israel”. I suspect that the punctuation is wrong here.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: ad_orientem on January 13, 2019, 08:08:42 PM
Perhaps, but you know what I mean. There are parallels.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Steve H on January 14, 2019, 08:18:43 AM
Gaza is controlled by a Palestinian terrorist organisations called Hamas.
And Isrel is controlled by a Jewish terrorist organisation called Likud.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: jeremyp on January 14, 2019, 09:10:44 AM
And Isrel is controlled by a Jewish terrorist organisation called Likud.
As long as you understand that the situation in Israel and Palestine is far more complex than just "Palestine good, Israel bad" that's fine.

Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Steve H on January 14, 2019, 09:25:46 AM
As long as you understand that the situation in Israel and Palestine is far more complex than just "Palestine good, Israel bad" that's fine.
As long as you understand that Israel is the oppressor, and the Palestinians, however badly some of them behave, are the oppressed, that's fine.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: jeremyp on January 14, 2019, 09:29:46 AM
As long as you understand that Israel is the oppressor,
The Israelis would argue that they are just trying to protect their country from people who want to annihilate them.

Quote
and the Palestinians, however badly some of them behave, are the oppressed, that's fine.
Quite a lot of oppression comes from their own leaders. Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist outfit. Don't be a woman or a gay person or an apostate or definitely not a Jew and living in their area of control.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Robbie on January 14, 2019, 09:31:52 AM
I wonder if Oliphant has friends/close acquaintances/colleagues who are Muslim. If he has and discusses such matters with them, he might be surprised at the amount of anti-Israel sentiment such as 'Israel should be erased'. Shocked me too.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Steve H on January 14, 2019, 09:32:18 AM
The Israelis would argue that they are just trying to protect their country from people who want to annihilate them.
Their country exists, in its entirety, on land stolen from the original inhabitants.
Quote
Quite a lot of oppression comes from their own leaders. Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist outfit. Don't be a woman or a gay person or an apostate or definitely not a Jew and living in their area of control.
As I've already made clear, I'm no uncritical defender of all Palestinians.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: jeremyp on January 14, 2019, 09:45:20 AM
Their country exists, in its entirety, on land stolen from the original inhabitants.
So does ours.

The creation of the State of Israel was a huge mistake but complaining about that now is like, when somebody asks you for directions, saying "I wouldn't start from here".

Quote
As I've already made clear, I'm no uncritical defender of all Palestinians.
Well maybe you should offer some criticism of them occasionally then.
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: Steve H on January 14, 2019, 09:54:06 AM
So does ours.

The creation of the State of Israel was a huge mistake but complaining about that now is like, when somebody asks you for directions, saying "I wouldn't start from here".
Well maybe you should offer some criticism of them occasionally then.
Just like all those "critical friends" of Israel who in fact bend over backwards to defend the indefensible, and peddle all the tired old lies about Israel's history, and indulgin in whataboutery, you mean? People like this obnoxious little creep, (https://www.facebook.com/tony.higton.1) one of those self-styled "critical friends".
Title: Re: Definitions
Post by: jeremyp on January 14, 2019, 09:59:14 AM
Just like all those "critical friends" of Israel who in fact bend over backwards to defend the indefensible, and peddle all the tired old lies about Israel's history, and indulgin in whataboutery, you mean? People like this obnoxious little creep, (https://www.facebook.com/tony.higton.1) one of those self-styled "critical friends".
Ha. You realise you are indulging in whataboutery yourself there.