Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Literature, Music, Art & Entertainment => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on February 28, 2019, 06:14:53 PM
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And I hear Eric Morecambe
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2019/02/28/517960940/andre-previn-musical-polymath-has-died-at-age-89
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And I hear Eric Morecambe
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2019/02/28/517960940/andre-previn-musical-polymath-has-died-at-age-89
I'm sorry to hear that - a man of multiple talents and the Mr Preview moment with Morecambe and wise is unforgettable.
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I saw the LSO and Andre Previn on a number of occasions. There is one which lives vividly in my memory.
They were playing the Walton's first symphony at the Proms. During the last few minutes of the final movement - which are loud and clamorous - a thunderstorm broke out over London matching the loud percussion and brass chords of the orchestra and rain could be heard hammering the Albert Hall's glass roof. Orchestra and nature were vying with each other to be heard.
And when we walked into the streets around the RAH, they were flooded. So much rain had fallen in such a short time that the drains could not cope. My wife and I reached our car, in Hyde Park, with our shoes and feet absolutely sodden. I drove to our home in Windsor in bare feet.
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The recording he did of Shostakovich's 5th symphony for RCA in 1966 was a record I bought when I was studying A level music (1974). It still remains my favourite recorded version of that magnificent symphony.
Although many (for very good reasons) remember the M & W moments he really was a very , very fine conductor and interpreter of music.
And if that talent wasn't enough he was an exceptional jazz pianist.
All the above confirms my long held conviction of the non-existence of God. IF there was a God you'd think they'd share the talent out more equitably. IF you detect a tinge of jealousy, you are indeed correct.
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Lovely tribute, trent, and thought occurs as to whether we would see such a thing as his appearance on M & W today.
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Not many people cross the classical / jazz boundaries so effortlessly. As a teenager learning classical piano I got a copy of Play Like Andre Previn (https://www.amazon.com/Play-Like-Andre-Previn-No/dp/B001N15B18) and it came as a revelation to me, such complex harmonies and off beat rhythms and it became a staple of my early years, I still return to it now and then. Feel like I've lost a guiding spirit.
Here he is duoing with Oscar Peterson :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51fUTDWhXys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51fUTDWhXys)
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I recall a concert by the LSO and Andre Previn at the Albert Hall, Trent (your Albert Hall, that is). It was unusual in that the concert started at a rather early time (I cannot recall precisely what time, but it may have been about 6.00pm).
Previn played a Mozart piano concerto, directing from the keyboard, and finished with Rachmaninov's 3rd symphony - which was wonderful.
IIRC Andre Previn was with the LSO for about 10 years and was as responsible as anyone else for starting the transformation of the orchestra into one of the world's best.
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And I hear Eric Morecambe
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2019/02/28/517960940/andre-previn-musical-polymath-has-died-at-age-89
FFS - as funny as the sketch on Morecombe and Wise was I hardly think that it is the defining moment of his very long and hugely varied musical career. I wonder if he rued the day he agreed to go on the show - I gather that BBC radio 4's piece on him had the sketch ... on the radio ... I mean what is that all about.
Thanks to others here for focussing on his actual talents and achievements.
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FFS - as funny as the sketch on Morecombe and Wise was I hardly think that it is the defining moment of his very long and hugely varied musical career. I wonder if he rued the day he agreed to go on the show - I gather that BBC radio 4's piece on him had the sketch ... on the radio ... I mean what is that all about.
Thanks to others here for focussing on his actual talents and achievements.
Didn't say it was. It was , oh let me think for a second, something called a J O K E.
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Didn't say it was. It was , oh let me think for a second, something called a J O K E.
Ok - a J O K E :o - hmm is that what you always do as a mark of respect for someone hugely talented and influential dies.
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Ok - a J O K E :o - hmm is that what you always do as a mark of respect for someone hugely talented and influential dies.
How hard is it to walk with that stick up.your arse?
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How hard is it to walk with that stick up.your arse?
Nice to know that when push comes to shove all you have are insults NS.
My point was that it is extremely belittling to someone with the range of influence in the world of music as Previn to boil down their phenomenal career to a single appearance on someone else's comedy show. While that appearance might be hugely relevant to the impact of M&W in their chosen profession (comedy) is totally irrelevant to the importance of Previn in his chosen career (music).
Interestingly NS - you are often the person who starts the 'someone notable' has died threads - usually with just a link or with a link plus a generous comment on their importance and the sadness of their passing - that's appropriate. Belittling their career with a joke about Morecombe isn't. To do so and when pulled up on it to claim it was just a J O K E and then to insult me speaks far more about you than it does about me.
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Heard a rather entertaining Previn anecdote from my choir's musical director (who'd met his many times over his career).
Apparently he was hired by the LSO largely on the basis of a fantastic performance conduction Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto.
So the first thing he did with the LSO was an extended tour of the US with Rachmaninov's 2nd part of the programme every night. Well actually every night except one concert where it was replaced by Beethoven 5th. Previn had missed this completely until the night before when he realised to his horror that he was to conduct a piece he'd not done before and was totally unprepared. Fortunately the orchestra leader was also a conductor and said he'd coach Previn - 'just do what I'd do, keep it simple and we'll do the rest - we know the piece like the back of our hands - it will be fine'.
But on the night Previn just couldn't help himself and added some trademark flamboyance - resulting in a complete car-wreck with half the orchestra coming in on da-da-da-dum a full bar before the rest.
After the concert Previn apologised profusely to the orchestra and bought everyone a drink, at which the long-suffering orchestra leader was hear to mutter:
'Hmm - Beethoven 5 - LSO nil.
A great man and such a range of musical talent (even if it doesn't extend to conducting Beethoven's 5th without any preparation!).
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Nice to know that when push comes to shove all you have are insults NS.
My point was that it is extremely belittling to someone with the range of influence in the world of music as Previn to boil down their phenomenal career to a single appearance on someone else's comedy show. While that appearance might be hugely relevant to the impact of M&W in their chosen profession (comedy) is totally irrelevant to the importance of Previn in his chosen career (music).
Interestingly NS - you are often the person who starts the 'someone notable' has died threads - usually with just a link or with a link plus a generous comment on their importance and the sadness of their passing - that's appropriate. Belittling their career with a joke about Morecombe isn't. To do so and when pulled up on it to claim it was just a J O K E and then to insult me speaks far more about you than it does about me.
You really have a firm grip on the balloon of pomposity.
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You really have a firm grip on the balloon of pomposity.
Yet more insults - ho hum.
Anything to say on Previn's musical achievements?
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My point was that it is extremely belittling to someone with the range of influence in the world of music as Previn to boil down their phenomenal career to a single appearance on someone else's comedy show. While that appearance might be hugely relevant to the impact of M&W in their chosen profession (comedy) is totally irrelevant to the importance of Previn in his chosen career (music).
I was having similar thoughts when I first heard about the announcement. Obviously the entire media went to that sketch immediately when announcing his death and I thought it was kind of sad to be glossing over the rest of a substantial career
However, like it or not, that sketch is the only frame of reference most people have for who Preview was. You have to talk about it. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but for the majority of people, that appearance on the Morcambe and Wise Show is the defining moment of Preview's career. Probably more people watched him on that show on its first airing than have ever seen him conduct an orchestra.
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Indeed, Jeremyp.
As publicity for a later M&W series, the BBC showed Andre Previn at work as a conductor - on a London transport bus ... saying something like "this is what appearing with Morecambe and Wise has done for my career." However - that Andre Previn was prepared to play along with the joke does say much that is positive about him.
I wonder if the millions who have seen the film version of My Fair Lady ever read the credits?
Incidentally, Yehudi Menuhin also once, briefly, appeared in a M&W programme. Eric asked him to bring his banjo.
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Heard a rather entertaining Previn anecdote from my choir's musical director (who'd met his many times over his career).
Apparently he was hired by the LSO largely on the basis of a fantastic performance conduction Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto.
So the first thing he did with the LSO was an extended tour of the US with Rachmaninov's 2nd part of the programme every night. Well actually every night except one concert where it was replaced by Beethoven 5th. Previn had missed this completely until the night before when he realised to his horror that he was to conduct a piece he'd not done before and was totally unprepared. Fortunately the orchestra leader was also a conductor and said he'd coach Previn - 'just do what I'd do, keep it simple and we'll do the rest - we know the piece like the back of our hands - it will be fine'.
But on the night Previn just couldn't help himself and added some trademark flamboyance - resulting in a complete car-wreck with half the orchestra coming in on da-da-da-dum a full bar before the rest.
After the concert Previn apologised profusely to the orchestra and bought everyone a drink, at which the long-suffering orchestra leader was hear to mutter:
'Hmm - Beethoven 5 - LSO nil.
A great man and such a range of musical talent (even if it doesn't extend to conducting Beethoven's 5th without any preparation!).
An interesting story - but I'm not sure that it has the ring of truth about it. Perhaps it has been embellished in the telling. It would already have been at least second hand by the time it reached your choir's director.
Previn was a thorough professional - and it is impossible that he did not know a staple orchestral piece such as Beethoven 5. If not with the LSO, he would have played it with his former orchestra in Houston. And do I not recall, in one of his TV programmes, him sitting away from the orchestra when it, conductorless, started playing Beethoven 5? I also recall him telling about the first time he conducted Stravinsky's Rite of Spring - with its myriad of shifting time signatures - and admitting that he had got lost but the orchestra played on and he was able to find his place again.
It is also very unlikely that there would not have been a seating rehearsal for a concert in a fresh location. Perhaps the incident happened in rehearsal rather than the show.
As for developing the ability to think on his feet, Andre Previn had spent years writing and recording scores for Hollywood films. This is an environment which requires split-second thinking and reaction ... and the ability to make instant changes if the film's director considers it necessary.
By the time he decided to settle as an orchestral conductor he was well past the stage where he would have behaved as you have suggested.
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However, like it or not, that sketch is the only frame of reference most people have for who Preview was. You have to talk about it. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but for the majority of people, that appearance on the Morcambe and Wise Show is the defining moment of Preview's career. Probably more people watched him on that show on its first airing than have ever seen him conduct an orchestra.
I'm sorry Jeremy but I can't agree with you and you comment is amazingly UK-centric and parochial.
Andre Previn was a global star of the music world. While most of his career was spent in the USA, he held major positions on 3 continents and was a star in every continent. M&W, by contrast never made it beyond the UK. Indeed Previn had won 4 Oscars by the time M&W were making their failed attempt to break America in the mid 60s.
So it might be true that in the UK 'that sketch is the only frame of reference most people have for who Preview was'.
But in Germany, the country of his brith - nope
In the US, the country of his residence and most of his work in Hollywood and various orchestras - nope
In Norway where he was director of the Oslo Philharmonic - nope
In Japan where he was director of the NHK Symphony Orchestra - nope
etc, etc
Indeed I suspect the majority of people in those countries will never have heard of M&W, never seen that sketch and if they had the point of reference (the person they knew) would be Previn introducing them to the unknowns of M&W.
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An interesting story - but I'm not sure that it has the ring of truth about it. Perhaps it has been embellished in the telling. It would already have been at least second hand by the time it reached your choir's director.
Previn was a thorough professional - and it is impossible that he did not know a staple orchestral piece such as Beethoven 5. If not with the LSO, he would have played it with his former orchestra in Houston. And do I not recall, in one of his TV programmes, him sitting away from the orchestra when it, conductorless, started playing Beethoven 5? I also recall him telling about the first time he conducted Stravinsky's Rite of Spring - with its myriad of shifting time signatures - and admitting that he had got lost but the orchestra played on and he was able to find his place again.
It is also very unlikely that there would not have been a seating rehearsal for a concert in a fresh location. Perhaps the incident happened in rehearsal rather than the show.
As for developing the ability to think on his feet, Andre Previn had spent years writing and recording scores for Hollywood films. This is an environment which requires split-second thinking and reaction ... and the ability to make instant changes if the film's director considers it necessary.
By the time he decided to settle as an orchestral conductor he was well past the stage where he would have behaved as you have suggested.
Sure but it is a nice story.
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If not with the LSO, he would have played it with his former orchestra in Houston. And do I not recall, in one of his TV programmes, him sitting away from the orchestra when it, conductorless, started playing Beethoven 5? I also recall him telling about the first time he conducted Stravinsky's Rite of Spring - with its myriad of shifting time signatures - and admitting that he had got lost but the orchestra played on and he was able to find his place again.
Actually that is the point of the story - the orchestra leader effectively telling him to 'mime' with the orchestra knowing it well enough to perform basically without a conductor. However Previn confused the hell out of them at the beginning bringing half the orchestra in one bar before the rest.
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do you think, then, that we should not have mentioned M&W at all? Not even think about something that makes us all smile warmly and fondly at a memory which shows Previn's sense of humour, lack of pomposity? That does notmake us less respectful of André Previn's life and work and if we're not sure of a point, then we can look it up. I have had over the years many CDs of classical music with him as conductor because it was the best version to have. If I could, I would go and find them and play them all, but I can't see which CD is which for a start, so I'm afraid I can't do that.
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On its Facebook page, on Thursday, the LSO paid the following tribute:
We are deeply saddened to hear of the death this morning of our Conductor Emeritus Andre Previn. He will be hugely missed by everyone at the LSO and remembered with great affection. May he always play the right notes in the right order.
https://lso.co.uk/1207-obituary-andre-previn-1929-2019.html
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do you think, then, that we should not have mentioned M&W at all? Not even think about something that makes us all smile warmly and fondly at a memory which shows Previn's sense of humour, lack of pomposity? That does notmake us less respectful of André Previn's life and work and if we're not sure of a point, then we can look it up.
Of course I'm not saying it shouldn't be mentioned. However what I am saying is that its prominence in the context of his life and work needs to be appropriate. So a brief mention (to bring a smile to those in the UK who are aware of the appearance) is fine, but if the focus is predominantly or even exclusively on this one appearance on a comedy show then - yes - this does lack respect for his work and achievements.
The LSO obit linked to by HH seems to get that balance right - the clear focus being his musical achievements with a brief nod to the appearance on M&W, with a photo. And of course the LSO are a UK based organisation so to nod to a UK-centric appearance briefly seems appropriate.
The New York times (from his country of residence and where he spent most of his career) is extensive and appropriate:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/obituaries/andre-previn-dead.html
Mentions of M&W - zero. Why, because the mainly US based readers of the NY times would have had a clue what we were talking about had it been referenced.
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Of course I'm not saying it shouldn't be mentioned. However what I am saying is that its prominence in the context of his life and work needs to be appropriate. So a brief mention (to bring a smile to those in the UK who are aware of the appearance) is fine, but if the focus is predominantly or even exclusively on this one appearance on a comedy show then - yes - this does lack respect for his work and achievements.
The LSO obit linked to by HH seems to get that balance right - the clear focus being his musical achievements with a brief nod to the appearance on M&W, with a photo. And of course the LSO are a UK based organisation so to nod to a UK-centric appearance briefly seems appropriate.
The New York times (from his country of residence and where he spent most of his career) is extensive and appropriate:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/obituaries/andre-previn-dead.html
Mentions of M&W - zero. Why, because the mainly US based readers of the NY times would have had a clue what we were talking about had it been referenced.
Oh my god! Alert interinterpol, there's a UK based messageboard that had an post of Andrew Preview's death that wasn't like an obituary in the New York Times. Those who ride in the armour of self regard must stop this 'inappropriate' behaviour.
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And I hear Eric Morecambe
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2019/02/28/517960940/andre-previn-musical-polymath-has-died-at-age-89
It's always great when someone really talented goes out of their way to publicly show they also have a sense of humour and a lack of pomposity. Makes them seem so much more approachable and human. Nice tribute to Andre Previn, the man, rather than just to his musical talent.
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Oh my god! Alert interinterpol, there's a UK based messageboard that had an post of Andrew Preview's death that wasn't like an obituary in the New York Times. Those who ride in the armour of self regard must stop this 'inappropriate' behaviour.
Do you actually have any comment to make about the great man's remarkable musical achievements extending over an astonishing 8 decades?
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I'm sorry Jeremy but I can't agree with you and you comment is amazingly UK-centric and parochial.
Andre Previn was a global star of the music world. While most of his career was spent in the USA, he held major positions on 3 continents and was a star in every continent. M&W, by contrast never made it beyond the UK. Indeed Previn had won 4 Oscars by the time M&W were making their failed attempt to break America in the mid 60s.
So it might be true that in the UK 'that sketch is the only frame of reference most people have for who Preview was'.
But in Germany, the country of his brith - nope
In the US, the country of his residence and most of his work in Hollywood and various orchestras - nope
In Norway where he was director of the Oslo Philharmonic - nope
In Japan where he was director of the NHK Symphony Orchestra - nope
etc, etc
Indeed I suspect the majority of people in those countries will never have heard of M&W, never seen that sketch and if they had the point of reference (the person they knew) would be Previn introducing them to the unknowns of M&W.
That’s all very nice and I’m sure the coverage of his death in those countries didn’t mention Morcambe and Wise. However, British coverage pretty much has to.
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Do you actually have any comment to make about the great man's remarkable musical achievements extending over an astonishing 8 decades?
For all we know the M&W sketch, showing his sense of humour, may be something that his family think of fondly. Why belittle and disrespect Andrè Previn by pretending he was nothing more than his musical achievements? He is not a commodity and no one here has any proprietary rights to how he is remembered.
His sense of humour seems to have been important to him since he went public with it so why disrespect the man now he is dead by trying to start an argument on a thread about him that, among other things, celebrates his sense of humour.
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From what I've read in the various obituaries he enjoyed doing M&W: from Wiki.
Previn himself recalled in 2005 that people in Britain still recall the sketch years later: "Taxi drivers still call me Mr Preview".[1] He later said he was happy that the sketch meant as much to everyone else as it did to him....
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I would agree with that Gabriella. Furthermore it is well documented that he had quite a good sense of humour and a very quick, fierce intelligence, so it is also equally possible that he realised the huge reach that M&W had in the UK and used it partially as a way of making classical music more "human" as it did have, and to a certain extent still retains, an undeserved reputation for stuffiness.
It may have been an attempt at trying to ensure accessibility to classical music.
Or he just liked a good laugh.
Either way it seems entirely appropriate that M&W have been mentioned.
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That’s all very nice and I’m sure the coverage of his death in those countries didn’t mention Morcambe and Wise. However, British coverage pretty much has to.
So you accept that your earlier comment:
'I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but for the majority of people, that appearance on the Morcambe and Wise Show is the defining moment of Preview's career.'
Is complete non-sense unless you adopt a totally UK-centric view which is completely inappropriate for a German born, US resident who was a global star.
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So you accept that your earlier comment:
'I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but for the majority of people, that appearance on the Morcambe and Wise Show is the defining moment of Preview's career.'
Is complete non-sense unless you adopt a totally UK-centric view which is completely inappropriate for a German born, US resident who was a global star.
This is a UK message board and most of the posters who post here would have been aware of the M&W clip and if the man himself was happy with it, perhaps you would be better off posting on a US message board about your thoughts on the matter rather than trying to spoil this thread.
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This is a UK message board and most of the posters who post here would have been aware of the M&W clip and if the man himself was happy with it, perhaps you would be better off posting on a US message board about your thoughts on the matter rather than trying to spoil this thread.
How am I trying to spoil this thread - I'm trying to get people to focus on Previn's actually 8 decade career, rather than on a 5 minute comedy sketch (which wasn't even new), which seems to be the only thing some people on this thread seem interested in.
Actually I'm not convinced Previn was actually too enamoured with the whole episode - he was decidedly grumpy about it in a relatively recent UK interview, and apparently his most recent wife wasn't even aware of it until Previn had to explain to her why a taxi driver in the UK was calling him Mr Preview, which understandably bemused her.
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How am I trying to spoil this thread - I'm trying to get people to focus on Previn's actually 8 decade career, rather than on a 5 minute comedy sketch (which wasn't even new), which seems to be the only thing some people on this thread seem interested in.
Actually I'm not convinced Previn was actually too enamoured with the whole episode - he was decidedly grumpy about it in a relatively recent UK interview, and apparently his most recent wife wasn't even aware of it until Previn had to explain to her why a taxi driver in the UK was calling him Mr Preview, which understandably bemused her.
Maybe try a different approach rather than bicker over someone else's post. Looking for an argument on a thread about a dead man who freely chose to go on M&W doesn't seem very respectful and seems to belittle him. Presumably you are not suggesting that he was too incompetent to make an informed decision about the pros and cons of celebrity from appearing on a popular comedy show that would possibly reach an audience of almost half the UK population at the time? From the way he dressed, his choice of wife, his astute self-promotion of his musical talent - he seemed interested in popular culture. That's part of who he was and so it seems reasonable to celebrate that part of him as that meant classical music reached a wider audience.
If your English is any good you should be able to do what Trent did - move people with his writing about what he felt was important to him about the musically-gifted Mr Preview.
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Maybe try a different approach rather than bicker over someone else's post. Looking for an argument on a thread about a dead man who freely chose to go on M&W doesn't seem very respectful and seems to belittle him. Presumably you are not suggesting that he was too incompetent to make an informed decision about the pros and cons of celebrity from appearing on a popular comedy show that would possibly reach an audience of almost half the UK population at the time?
I have no doubt it was mutually beneficial to all involved, but remember Previn and the LSO were under contract with the BBC for Andre Previn's Music Night, as of course were M&W. The BBC will have put them together as part of their contractual arrangements. Previn made a number of appearances on M&W but only during the period when he was separately under contract with the BBC - never before and never afterwards.
If your English is any good you should be able to do what Trent did - move people with his writing about what he felt was important to him about the musically-gifted Mr Preview.
I'll leave it to others to expand on his remarkable 8 decade career (perhaps even 9 decades as he was improvising on piano for silent films in the late 1930s) from highly respected obits, from around the globe:
https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-andre-previn-composer-dead-20190228-story.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/arts/music/andre-previn-dead.html?module=inline
https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/andre-previn-oscarwinning-composer-has-died-at-89-20190301-h1buze.html
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/28/andre-previn-obituary
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/andre-previn-obituary-death-oscar-composer-conductor-dead-a8803221.html
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I have no doubt it was mutually beneficial to all involved, but remember Previn and the LSO were under contract with the BBC for Andre Previn's Music Night, as of course were M&W. The BBC will have put them together as part of their contractual arrangements. Previn made a number of appearances on M&W but only during the period when he was separately under contract with the BBC - never before and never afterwards.
Are you implying that Previn appeared on M&W because he was contractually obliged to by the BBC and he himself didn't want to do it? Because on the show "Andre Previn at the BBC" he actually said he was a great fan of M&W and tried not to miss their shows, and when the Head of BBC2 asked him if he would ever do something as outrageous as being on their show, he said "Like a shot". And despite his busy schedule - he was on tour in America - as soon as he landed back in Britain he went to the studio to do the M&W show, and learned the script in the cab on the way from the airport.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06gxxxh/andre-previn-at-the-bbc
I'll leave it to others to expand on his remarkable 8 decade career (perhaps even 9 decades as he was improvising on piano for silent films in the late 1930s) from highly respected obits, from around the globe:
https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-andre-previn-composer-dead-20190228-story.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/arts/music/andre-previn-dead.html?module=inline
https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/music/andre-previn-oscarwinning-composer-has-died-at-89-20190301-h1buze.html
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/28/andre-previn-obituary
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/andre-previn-obituary-death-oscar-composer-conductor-dead-a8803221.html
Ok.
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So you accept that your earlier comment:
'I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but for the majority of people, that appearance on the Morcambe and Wise Show is the defining moment of Preview's career.'
Is complete non-sense unless you adopt a totally UK-centric view which is completely inappropriate for a German born, US resident who was a global star.
I reckon that if you polled the entire World’s population on what they associate with André Previn, the vast majority will never have heard of him. Maybe some millions will have some idea that he was an orchestra conductor but not be able to name any significant achievement of his and they might outnumber the people - mainly from the UK - who will say “he was the one in the right notes in the wrong order sketch”. I’d be quite sure that this last group would outnumber the people who could name a specific achievement of his that isn’t appearing on Morcambe and Wise.
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How am I trying to spoil this thread - I'm trying to get people to focus on Previn's actually 8 decade career, rather than on a 5 minute comedy sketch
Thirteen minutes, actually.
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Thirteen minutes, actually.
Then I apologise and will rephrase:
How am I trying to spoil this thread - I'm trying to get people to focus on Previn's actually 8 decade career, rather than on a 13 minute comedy sketch
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I reckon that if you polled the entire World’s population on what they associate with André Previn, the vast majority will never have heard of him. Maybe some millions will have some idea that he was an orchestra conductor but not be able to name any significant achievement of his and they might outnumber the people - mainly from the UK - who will say “he was the one in the right notes in the wrong order sketch”. I’d be quite sure that this last group would outnumber the people who could name a specific achievement of his that isn’t appearing on Morcambe and Wise.
Thank you for rather begrudgingly confirming that you were wrong to claim that 'but for the majority of people, that appearance on the Morcambe and Wise Show is the defining moment of Preview's career.'
I not even convinced that the M&W sketch has the reach in the UK you might think it does. Sure most of us on this MB are of an age where M&W is part of our heritage, but don't forget that there are generations of younger people who really have no idea who M&W were, including my kids. Yet my son was loving the Previn/Peterson duet on youtube the other day, as he is a big jazz fan.
Now I understand it isn't anything to do with his musical achievements, but I suspect the most widely known aspect of Previn's life is that he was married to Mia Farrow.
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Then I apologise and will rephrase:
How am I trying to spoil this thread - I'm trying to get people to focus on Previn's actually 8 decade career, rather than on a 13 minute comedy sketch
You made your point a long time ago. Why are you still going on about it?
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Thank you for rather begrudgingly confirming that you were wrong to claim that 'but for the majority of people, that appearance on the Morcambe and Wise Show is the defining moment of Preview's career.'
You’re right. I should have said “for the majority of people who can name anything specific he did” or “for the majority of British people”.
I not even convinced that the M&W sketch has the reach in the UK you might think it does.
Really? How come pretty much every British media outlet led with that sketch?
Now I understand it isn't anything to do with his musical achievements, but I suspect the most widely known aspect of Previn's life is that he was married to Mia Farrow.
Maybe in the USA. But wouldn’t you prefer to be known for a genius comedy sketch than a failed marriage?
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Really? How come pretty much every British media outlet led with that sketch?
Except they didn't - the M&W sketch barely gets a mention in the obits from the Guardian, Independent and Telegraph and none led on it.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/28/andre-previn-obituary
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/andre-previn-obituary-death-oscar-composer-conductor-dead-a8803221.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2019/02/28/andre-previn-prodigiously-talented-conductor-pianist-composer/
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But wouldn’t you prefer to be known for a genius comedy sketch than a failed marriage?
Yup - but if I were a musical genius with an 8 decade career that was global and spanned jazz, film music and classical that I think I'd prefer to be remembered for that rather than a failed marriage or a comedy sketch.
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And despite his busy schedule - he was on tour in America - as soon as he landed back in Britain he went to the studio to do the M&W show, and learned the script in the cab on the way from the airport.
Not true - the reason why he had no time to rehearse was because he had to return to New York because his mother was seriously ill, not because he was on tour. Another reason why the whole thing was pretty stressful for all concerned as the producer has confirmed on a number of occasions. Apparently Morecambe was so concerned about the lack of preparation he wanted to cancel the whole thing.
And I think he has freely admitted that he'd only seen the sketch once in his lifetime, some 25 years after it was made.
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Not true - the reason why he had no time to rehearse was because he had to return to New York because his mother was seriously ill, not because he was on tour. Another reason why the whole thing was pretty stressful for all concerned as the producer has confirmed on a number of occasions. Apparently Morecambe was so concerned about the lack of preparation he wanted to cancel the whole thing.
We weren't discussing Eric Morecambe's recollection of rehearsing the sketch, but feel free to start a tribute thread to Morcambe and Wise if you want to discuss Eric Morcambe's rehearsing techniques. We were discussing whether Previn did the sketch out of contractual obligations to the BBC as you seemed to be implying. Previn's own words in the BBC interview says he jumped at the chance of being in the M&W show when he was approached by the BBC to ask if he would consider it, as Previn said he was a big fan of M&W.
Glad you now accept that your opinions that he may have done the show due to the BBC putting it together based on contractual obligations, were complete nonsense. Previn just seems to have had a better sense of humour than you give him credit for.
In my BBC iPlayer link, Previn discusses the sketch from about 9 minutes into the programme, and about 9 mins 20 secs he says he was in tour in America and when he came back they had this sketch in mind and he "rehearsed it on the way from the airport to the BBC and we did it. It was that simple".
Which is why I said he had a busy schedule because he was on tour in America and as soon as he came back he went to the studio to do the M&W sketch. Are you saying you have proof that Previn was mistaken in his recollection of his involvement in the M&W comedy sketch?
If you want to add other information to the story, it's up to you to provide evidence to back up your assertions. You're credibility on this is running a bit low.
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In my BBC iPlayer link, Previn discusses the sketch from about 9 minutes into the programme, and about 9 mins 20 secs he says he was in tour in America and when he came back they had this sketch in mind and he "rehearsed it on the way from the airport to the BBC and we did it. It was that simple".
Which is why I said he had a busy schedule because he was on tour in America and as soon as he came back he went to the studio to do the M&W sketch. Are you saying you have proof that Previn was mistaken in his recollection of his involvement in the M&W comedy sketch?
Nope that isn't what happened, and what Previn says (note the edit half way through) is entirely consistent with the reality. This is a direct quote about the events from the show's producer John Ammonds:
'“His agent needed to know how long we would want him, as he was obviously very busy. I told them a full week. We always had the guests a full week so they could rehearse. I could almost hear a crash at the other end of the phone. Andre could not give us a full week and the best we could agree on was three days.”
“Eric was unhappy with the situation and expressed concern about how he could learn the whole routine in that time. I managed to persuade him it would be fine.”
“At the first read through I was helpless with laughter. As Andre was reading it, he was also performing it, and we all knew it was going to be great. Then trouble struck. Later that day I got a call from his agent who told me Andre had to leave. He had to fly to America because his mother was ill. Worse still, he wouldn’t be back until the night before the actual show. I was dreading breaking the news to Eric.”
“Eric seriously considered scrapping the whole routine. Based on the brief rehearsal I said it would be fine, but there were very real concerns over this. He confided in me that the routine was not as funny as thought it was. The next night when we did it for real, in front of an audience and the roof went off.”'
So the plan was that once Previn returned from tour there would be a read through of Green and Hill's long-standing sketch (which happened as planned, alluded to in Previn's clip before the edit). After that things went wrong - Previn's mother became ill and he needed to return to the USA (rather than being on tour) and the planned rehearsals therefore couldn't take place. We've no idea what Previn said in the edited section, but his comment on coming in from the airport refers to his return from his unplanned trip due to his mother's illness, not his scheduled tour, as clearly indicated in Ammonds' piece.
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If you are reading through the Morecambe and Wise website for your information, why did you pretend that Previn did the show because of contractual obligations to the BBC? And why not just link to the website? It's almost like you're trying to hide the information that proves you wrong about Previn's willing involvement with M&W. Just before the section you just quoted it says:
The most famous guest was probably Andre Previn, and the way in which John got him was a mix of good luck, coincidence and perseverance.
“I’d seen him on a BBC2 programme talking to camera, and I knew he had a good experience with all kinds of entertainment.” John begins, “Eric liked the idea of using for the Grieg sketch but said I would never get him.”
“I called up the producer of the show I had seen him in and was told by his secretary that he was three floors below me at the BBC, editing a show. I went straight down. He informed me he was meeting Andre for lunch the next day and would mention the idea.”
“The following day I got a call and eventually ended up speaking to the man himself. He was keen on the idea and so it was up to his agent and myself to put the plan together that fitted us both.”
http://www.morecambeandwise.com/ViewPage.aspx?pageID=405
That Previn did a tour of America, came to London to rehearse and do the M&W show, flew back to America to visit his sick mother and still came back in time to do the show with little rehearsal when he could have cancelled just shows what a big fan he must have been of M&W. An ill mother and no rehearsal time would have been a perfectly acceptable reason for him to drop out from doing the show. Glad we are celebrating something on this thread that seems to have mattered to him, despite your best efforts.
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I just want to say something else about Andre Previn if I can penetrate this seemingly unending stuff about Morecambe and Wise.
The London Symphony Orchestra is now considered to be one of the four or five best orchestras in the world. It wasn't when he was appointed its chief conductor. In fact, it was an almost all-male, macho, laddish ensemble renowned (in the pages of Private Eye at least) for taking a delight in destroying conductors it didn't like. Principals would also absent themselves for more remunerative engagements and send along deputies to replace them. It always behaved itself on the public platform but at rehearsals ... A significant reason for the LSO being able to get away with such behaviour was that it was self-governing.
During his eleven years in that post Previn - helped by enlightened management - was able to start the process whereby the orchestra began to review the way it behaved. Appointing women players helped (although it was several years before the proportion of women approached that of - say - the BBC Symphony Orchestra). I suspect that he helped the orchestra to start taking itself seriously.
Following his formal resignation from the post, Previn continued to appear regularly with the LSO - and for the last twenty years or so has held honorary positions as Conductor Laureate and Conductor Emeritus - meaning that his association with the LSO was longer than with any other orchestra.
Another aspect of the LSO's life that Previn probably influenced was its association with American music and musicians. Michael Tilson Thomas became chief conductor and a very close relationship developed with Leonard Bernstein. Another composer/conductor who worked frequently with the orchestra was John Williams - this relationship has probably resulted in the LSO being heard by more people than any other orchestra in history!
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I just want to say something else about Andre Previn if I can penetrate this seemingly unending stuff about Morecambe and Wise.
The London Symphony Orchestra is now considered to be one of the four or five best orchestras in the world. It wasn't when he was appointed its chief conductor. In fact, it was an almost all-male, macho, laddish ensemble renowned (in the pages of Private Eye at least) for taking a delight in destroying conductors it didn't like. Principals would also absent themselves for more remunerative engagements and send along deputies to replace them. It always behaved itself on the public platform but at rehearsals ... A significant reason for the LSO being able to get away with such behaviour was that it was self-governing.
During his eleven years in that post Previn - helped by enlightened management - was able to start the process whereby the orchestra began to review the way it behaved. Appointing women players helped (although it was several years before the proportion of women approached that of - say - the BBC Symphony Orchestra). I suspect that he helped the orchestra to start taking itself seriously.
Following his formal resignation from the post, Previn continued to appear regularly with the LSO - and for the last twenty years or so has held honorary positions as Conductor Laureate and Conductor Emeritus - meaning that his association with the LSO was longer than with any other orchestra.
Another aspect of the LSO's life that Previn probably influenced was its association with American music and musicians. Michael Tilson Thomas became chief conductor and a very close relationship developed with Leonard Bernstein. Another composer/conductor who worked frequently with the orchestra was John Williams - this relationship has probably resulted in the LSO being heard by more people than any other orchestra in history!
Absolutely correct - Previn turned the LSO from just another of many orchestras (even just those based in London) to one of the most highly regarded in the world.
Interesting you mention self governing - and one of the aspects of that was that it was the orchestra directly, rather than separate administrative structures that determined that Previn should be appointed.
And you are correct that he used a whole range of approaches to ensure that the LSO was both accessible, and accessed (not the same thing) by the widest possible audience, including those regular links with John Williams which was no doubt helped by Previn's background in film music and Hollywood. And that included the LSO recording the orchestral soundtracks for the first Star Wars films. HH do you know whether Previn was conducting the LSO for those sessions - I know he was instrumental in setting up the link between the orchestra and John Williams.
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Thank you, PD.
Previn did not conduct the Star Wars soundtrack, John Williams did.
John Williams has also developed a very strong relationship with the LSO. He is now in mid-80s and doesn't feel able to travel much. I believe that a recent LSO concert to celebrate the association with John Williams did involve a video link enabling him to be "present". (Or I may have misunderstood a report of the concert).
Incidentally, I recall that in one of his early Andre Previn's Music Night shows, Previn included music by John Williams.
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That Previn did a tour of America, came to London to rehearse and do the M&W show, flew back to America to visit his sick mother ...
So you accept my version of events was correct (or rather the actual producer of the show's version of events, consistent with Previn's words himself) - now I know this is the height of pedantry, but if you are in effect accusing another poster of lying then I think you need to get your facts right first.
... and still came back in time to do the show with little rehearsal when he could have cancelled just shows what a big fan he must have been of M&W.
Perhaps - but rather more is shows that he was the consummate professional who had a contractual obligation to appear on the show and was going to make sure he didn't break that contractual obligation.
He might have loved M&W - who knows - but there is no evidence that he loved the sketch. He freely admitted that he'd never even seen the finished version until 1996, some 25 years after it was made. And that was only because he was kind of 'ambushed' - he was at a reception for receiving his honorary knighthood with the US ambassador who, unbeknown to Previn, insisted on a viewing. He was also so enamoured by the sketch that he never even mentioned it to his most recent wife, she only found out when she asked him why a taxi driver was calling him Mr Preview.
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Thank you, PD.
Previn did not conduct the Star Wars soundtrack, John Williams did.
John Williams has also developed a very strong relationship with the LSO. He is now in mid-80s and doesn't feel able to travel much. I believe that a recent LSO concert to celebrate the association with John Williams did involve a video link enabling him to be "present". (Or I may have misunderstood a report of the concert).
Incidentally, I recall that in one of his early Andre Previn's Music Night shows, Previn included music by John Williams.
I didn't know that - but Andre Previn's Music Night was pretty groundbreaking too - bringing serious classical music to the masses, but in a manner that was very engaging and not stuffy.
He also included the other John Williams - who was himself a bit of a classical crossover superstar at the time.
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If you are reading through the Morecambe and Wise website for your information, why did you pretend that Previn did the show because of contractual obligations to the BBC? And why not just link to the website? It's almost like you're trying to hide the information that proves you wrong about Previn's willing involvement with M&W. Just before the section you just quoted it says:
The most famous guest was probably Andre Previn, and the way in which John got him was a mix of good luck, coincidence and perseverance.
“I’d seen him on a BBC2 programme talking to camera, and I knew he had a good experience with all kinds of entertainment.” John begins, “Eric liked the idea of using for the Grieg sketch but said I would never get him.”
“I called up the producer of the show I had seen him in and was told by his secretary that he was three floors below me at the BBC, editing a show. I went straight down. He informed me he was meeting Andre for lunch the next day and would mention the idea.”
“The following day I got a call and eventually ended up speaking to the man himself. He was keen on the idea and so it was up to his agent and myself to put the plan together that fitted us both.”
Quite the contrary - this rather confirms my assertion, that the appearance on M&W and his existing contract for Music Night were linked. My words were:
'I have no doubt it was mutually beneficial to all involved, but remember Previn and the LSO were under contract with the BBC for Andre Previn's Music Night, as of course were M&W. The BBC will have put them together as part of their contractual arrangements.'
That is exactly what happened - the whole deal was brokered by the Music Night producer - the M&W producer went to him. If there was no contractual link to the BBC that would have been completely inappropriate - he'd have worked via Previn's agent.
It is absolutely standard that BBC contracts (and other media organisations) have a contractual requirement to engage in a range of promotional activities. These will include print-type promotional material, but also as appropriate appearances on other shows. Of course there is nothing the BBC likes better than to have one of their stars promote their show on another high profile BBC platform (have you ever watched Graham Norton) - this has been going on for years and arguably the balance was tipped more in favour of the BBC rather than the artists back in the 60s and 70s.
Now the contract rarely specifies exactly what has to be done - that is to be determined by the show's producers. They also have a veto on appearances they consider to be inappropriate and detrimental to the show's promotion. So Ammonds piece is entirely consistent with that approach. He'd like Previn, Previn is contracted with the BBC to do Music Night and will need to fulfil promotional requirements - so Ammonds goes directly to the Music Night producer rather than Previn's agent. The Music Night producer brokers the deal and gains the agreement of Previn (before Previn's agent is even involved).
None of that means that Previn didn't want to do it - it was mutually agreeable to all involved, but without doubt the BBC, via their respective producers, put them together due to their existing contractual arrangements.
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So you accept my version of events was correct (or rather the actual producer of the show's version of events, consistent with Previn's words himself) - now I know this is the height of pedantry, but if you are in effect accusing another poster of lying then I think you need to get your facts right first.
If you are going to accuse another poster of accusing you of lying best quote where I accused you of lying. What I said was that if you are going to add to the story you need to link to evidence. Asking someone for evidence of an assertion about someone else isn't accusing them of lying - it's teaching them how a forum works - why should anyone believe your assertions about Previn unless you provide evidence to back them up? You're a nobody like the rest of us on a fairly small forum - just another poster.
And I don't accept your version is correct - I wouldn't know what is correct and neither do you. But I accept that Ammond's recollection according to the Morecambe and Wise website is that Previn's mother was sick and that Previn was keen enough to do the show that he flew back in time to record it, when he could have decided it was too stressful and not taken part. Previn's own words in the iPlayer link doesn't mention his mother, so without more information I have no idea if Previn agrees with Ammond's version of events, or if he mentioned a sick mother and it was edited out or if he never mentioned it.
Perhaps - but rather more is shows that he was the consummate professional who had a contractual obligation to appear on the show and was going to make sure he didn't break that contractual obligation.
An ill mother and no rehearsal time would have been a perfectly acceptable reason for a star like him to miss doing a comedy sketch so no, it seems rather more that he was there because he wanted to do the show, even though he could have cancelled.
He might have loved M&W - who knows
You know because Previn said he was a big fan of their show and would be on their show "like a shot" but there is no evidence that he loved the sketch.
If he was unhappy with it, he would have said something in the interviews that he did where the sketch was mentioned. And he would not have agreed to return to poke fun at himself again in another M&W show, by appearing as a bus conductor. Face it - he had a sense of humour, and liked to display that side of himself to the public. Which is as good a reason as any to keep you talking about Previn's appearances on M&W, because it's a good way to celebrate the humourous side of the talented Mr. Previn. Thanks for quoting from the M&W website by the way. Compared to the one line by NS concerning Eric Morecambe at the start of the thread, we've managed to turn the majority of this thread to be about Morecambe & Wise. You must be pleased.
He freely admitted that he'd never even seen the finished version until 1996, some 25 years after it was made. And that was only because he was kind of 'ambushed' - he was at a reception for receiving his honorary knighthood with the US ambassador who, unbeknown to Previn, insisted on a viewing. He was also so enamoured by the sketch that he never even mentioned it to his most recent wife, she only found out when she asked him why a taxi driver was calling him Mr Preview.
You know the drill - evidence please. By the way, I am sure there were lots of non-musical things from the 1970s he didn't get time to mention to his fifth wife, a renowned violinist who was invited by the conductor Herbert von Karajan to play with the Berlin Philharmonic at the age of 13, and to whom he was married for all of 4 years before they divorced in 2006, almost 30 years after the final episode date of the M&W show, and who was German and had probably never heard of Morecambe & Wise. While they were married they probably spent a lot of time talking about, rehearsing and performing music. I've been married for 25 years and there are still things from the 1970s that are important to me that I haven't gotten around to talking about to my husband because I only recall them when they seem relevant to something happening today. But that's fine - you keep this thread on Andre Previn and Morecambe and Wise going, by coming up with more of your theories on Andre's feelings about the comedy sketches he did with them. It was a very funny collaboration and popular with British fans of Previn so certainly worth mentioning a few more times on a British forum.
"I told Previn that my favourite line of the sketch – which sent up Eric’s efforts to play the Grieg Piano Concerto – was “for another fiver we could have had Ted Heath”. Previn’s face creased with mirth, and I was pleased to see that the sketch meant as much to him as everybody else."
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/mar/01/andre-previn-interview-philip-clark-morecombe-and-wise
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Quite the contrary - this rather confirms my assertion, that the appearance on M&W and his existing contract for Music Night were linked. My words were:
'I have no doubt it was mutually beneficial to all involved, but remember Previn and the LSO were under contract with the BBC for Andre Previn's Music Night, as of course were M&W. The BBC will have put them together as part of their contractual arrangements.'
That is exactly what happened - the whole deal was brokered by the Music Night producer - the M&W producer went to him. If there was no contractual link to the BBC that would have been completely inappropriate - he'd have worked via Previn's agent.
It is absolutely standard that BBC contracts (and other media organisations) have a contractual requirement to engage in a range of promotional activities. These will include print-type promotional material, but also as appropriate appearances on other shows. Of course there is nothing the BBC likes better than to have one of their stars promote their show on another high profile BBC platform (have you ever watched Graham Norton) - this has been going on for years and arguably the balance was tipped more in favour of the BBC rather than the artists back in the 60s and 70s.
Now the contract rarely specifies exactly what has to be done - that is to be determined by the show's producers. They also have a veto on appearances they consider to be inappropriate and detrimental to the show's promotion. So Ammonds piece is entirely consistent with that approach. He'd like Previn, Previn is contracted with the BBC to do Music Night and will need to fulfil promotional requirements - so Ammonds goes directly to the Music Night producer rather than Previn's agent. The Music Night producer brokers the deal and gains the agreement of Previn (before Previn's agent is even involved).
None of that means that Previn didn't want to do it - it was mutually agreeable to all involved, but without doubt the BBC, via their respective producers, put them together due to their existing contractual arrangements.
The important point in all that waffle is that Previn, when asked if he would ever do something as outrageous as the M&W show replied, "like a shot" according to his words, because he was a big fan of their show. So I'm quite happy for you and me to keep celebrating the Morcambe and Wise / Andre Previn comedy sketch by talking about it some more, especially given the OP of this thread.
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If you are going to accuse another poster of accusing you of lying best quote where I accused you of lying.
Please don't misquote me Gabriella. What I said was:
'... if you are in effect accusing another poster of lying then I think you need to get your facts right first ...'
I think your accusation:
'Are you saying you have proof that Previn was mistaken in his recollection of his involvement in the M&W comedy sketch?'
is in effect accusing me of lying.
Regardless, as it turns out I provided the proof and the actual facts aren't inconsistent with what Previn said.
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An ill mother and no rehearsal time would have been a perfectly acceptable reason for a star like him to miss doing a comedy sketch so no, it seems rather more that he was there because he wanted to do the show, even though he could have cancelled.
That's pure speculation - what we do know is that he was contracted to appear on the show and despite serious 'curve-balls' in the last few days he did appear on the show. Whether that's because he wanted to do it at that point or because as the consumate professional he felt he should fulfil his obligations neither you nor I know.
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You know the drill - evidence please.
His Desert Island Discs interview and:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/jun/06/classicalmusicandopera2
Amongst others telling the same story
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The important point in all that waffle is that Previn, when asked if he would ever do something as outrageous as the M&W show replied, "like a shot" according to his words ...
Have you asked yourself who it was that actually asked Previn and gained his agreement to appear on the show. You know the 'shadowy' figure that Ammonds went to take to in the editing suite and who said he was having lunch with Previn the following day. The person who actually asked Previn, got his agreement and brokered the deal.
Well actually we know exactly who he was.
He wasn't just the producer of Music Night (where he was effectively the custodian of Previn's BBC contract) he was also the Head of music programmes for whole of BBC television, responsible for everything from Music Night to the Proms toTop of the Pops.
He was significantly senior to Ammonds in the BBC hierarchy and would have had the authority and seniority to take decisions on appropriate promotional activities for artists contacted to produce music programmes. And that would have included the authority to veto a promotional appearance he considered not to be consistent with the image of Music Night (clearly he didn't).
He was also a hugely influential figure in classical music recording and a person who Previn personally respected hugely and had worked with over many years. He was also the person who brought Previn and the LSO to the BBC.
His name was John Culshaw - perhaps you've never heard of him, Gabriella. But I suspect some of the classical music aficionados on here, e.g. HH will have done, or will certainly know his work, as he was responsible for much of the legendary Decca classical music recordings of the late 50s and early 60s, including works conducted by Solti, Karajan, Bernstein, Britton etc. His recording of the Ring cycle was actually voted the greatest recording ever made ever by readers of Gramophone magazine.
He is perhaps the 'unsung hero' of this tale
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Except they didn't - the M&W sketch barely gets a mention in the obits from the Guardian, Independent and Telegraph and none led on it.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/28/andre-previn-obituary
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/andre-previn-obituary-death-oscar-composer-conductor-dead-a8803221.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2019/02/28/andre-previn-prodigiously-talented-conductor-pianist-composer/
Your links are to the obituaries of those papers. What did their news stories say?
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Who gives a toss about how Morcambe and Wise managed to book Previn?
Yes Previn was a great conductor and did many great things in the world of classical music, but his participation in the Morcambe and Wise sketch really does stand out. There are many great conductors of Previn’s calibre but only he allowed a comedian to take the Mickey in one of the all time great comedy sketches.
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Who gives a toss about how Morcambe and Wise managed to book Previn?
Yes Previn was a great conductor and did many great things in the world of classical music, but his participation in the Morcambe and Wise sketch really does stand out. There are many great conductors of Previn’s calibre but only he allowed a comedian to take the Mickey in one of the all time great comedy sketches.
As part of an interest in expanding the interest in classical music. Something that this thread would seem to have become an antithesis to.
I cannot think that anything similar would happen today.
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Yes Previn was a great conductor and did many great things in the world of classical music, but his participation in the Morcambe and Wise sketch really does stand out.
Matter of opinion, but I cannot agree with you.
The sketch was a high point of M&W's career - it was not a high point of Previn's career.
Just my opinion.
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I cannot think that anything similar would happen today.
Not so sure about that ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC65NkjhkPA
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Not so sure about that ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC65NkjhkPA
Seems in no way related. Nothing about music
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Seems in no way related. Nothing about music
Correct - nothing to do with music.
I thought you meant a 'serious' professional allowing themselves to be sent up on a comedy sketch. Interesting parallels as both Previn and Hawking were passionate about bringing their 'serious' subject (classical music, physics) the masses and weren't precious about the approaches they adopted.
By the way the M&W sketch is far funnier (in my opinion) than the Little Britain/Hawking one.
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Correct - nothing to do with music.
I thought you meant a 'serious' professional allowing themselves to be sent up on a comedy sketch. Interesting parallels as both Previn and Hawking were passionate about bringing their 'serious' subject (classical music, physics) the masses and weren't precious about the approaches they adopted.
By the way the M&W sketch is far funnier (in my opinion) than the Little Britain/Hawking one.
let's go on a point of agreement. The M&W sketch is funnier.
My question was about someone in music like Previn doing such a sketch.
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My question was about someone in music like Previn doing such a sketch.
I think there have been plenty involving pop/rock musicians, including carpool karaoke-type stuff with James Cordon, e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvuENG3O9TM
Not sure about classical musicians though but that's perhaps because there a few currently with the rock star-like profile of Previn (or DuPre or Barenboim) in the late 60s.
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That's pure speculation - what we do know is that he was contracted to appear on the show and despite serious 'curve-balls' in the last few days he did appear on the show. Whether that's because he wanted to do it at that point or because as the consumate professional he felt he should fulfil his obligations neither you nor I know.
Your posts on here about Previn doing the show because of his contractual obligations to the BBC regarding promotion and publicity, and Previn's reasons for not telling his wife 30 years later about his appearance on M&W have been pure speculation. The far simpler explanation is the one he gave and which made him seem like a good sport with the ability to laugh at himself. He was a fan of the M&W show and therefore jumped at the chance to appear. He probably thought it would be funny, outrageous, good publicity and he could see how it might broaden his appeal to a wider audience.
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Please don't misquote me Gabriella. What I said was:
'... if you are in effect accusing another poster of lying then I think you need to get your facts right first ...'
I think your accusation:
'Are you saying you have proof that Previn was mistaken in his recollection of his involvement in the M&W comedy sketch?'
is in effect accusing me of lying.
Regardless, as it turns out I provided the proof and the actual facts aren't inconsistent with what Previn said.
It was a question asking if you had any proof that Previn was mistaken in his recollection. People make mistakes when they recollect events - the issues of inaccurate eye witness testimony and reconstructed memories that can be altered by suggestion or leading questions has been discussed a few times on this forum. How have you managed to interpret a question asking for proof as an accusation that you were posting information that you knew to be false?
And yes, you provided an account from the producer of M&W about Previn flying to the US because his mother was sick, which wasn't in the video of the interview with Previn recounting his appearance on M&W. Whether he was on tour or visiting his sick mother in the US is incidental to the point he made in his interview that he was keen to take part in the show and rehearsed his part for the M&W sketch in the car from the airport to the studio.
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I think there have been plenty involving pop/rock musicians, including carpool karaoke-type stuff with James Cordon, e.g.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvuENG3O9TM
Not sure about classical musicians though but that's perhaps because there a few currently with the rock star-like profile of Previn (or DuPre or Barenboim) in the late 60s.
I suppose the closest we have had in recent times is Lesley Garrett on SCD but not sure that quite translates. I don't see Du Pre or Barenboim as being likely to appear in the same way though I think Menuhin a possible. I have linked on the Music thread to Perlman playing with Larry Adler on Parkinson but mt thought is that we have backed away from classical music as accessible and rebuilt the wall of snobbishness.
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I suppose the closest we have had in recent times is Lesley Garrett on SCD but not sure that quite translates. I don't see Du Pre or Barenboim as being likely to appear in the same way though I think Menuhin a possible. I have linked on the Music thread to Perlman playing with Larry Adler on Parkinson but mt thought is that we have backed away from classical music as accessible and rebuilt the wall of snobbishness.
Simon Rattle and the LSO with Rowan Atkinson at the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony?
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Simon Rattle and the LSO with Rowan Atkinson at the 2012 Olympics opening ceremony?
And yet Rattle and the orchestra were not noticeable to most people? We don't do classical music for people well in this country. Which i think was one of Previn's interests.
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And yet Rattle and the orchestra were not noticeable to most people? We don't do classical music for people well in this country. Which i think was one of Previn's interests.
Yes that's right - it was Atkinson's sketch with the orchestra not really more noticeable and involved as the orchestra in the M&W sketch.
On the broader point, not sure we don't do classical music well in the UK - but it is niche and as with all niche interests they can seem a bit hidden to the broader public. In fact I think music generally is becoming much more complex from a media perspective and it isn't so easy to pick out the popular vs the niche any more. Once upon a time most of us received our music via a few well trodden media outlets (radio plus a few tv shows and magazines) and we'd then perhaps buy the record. Now, of course, most young people have pretty well the whole music spectrum at their fingertips via streaming services.
So my 17 year old thinks nothing of drifting between listening to hard core rap/grime one moment, some old Coltrain/Davis the next and then onto some choral music. It's just the way he works, as do his friends.
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I would suggest that the whole discussion here is an illustration of us not doing classical music well. Previn wanted to make it popular and was excoriated for that. In part that was the genius of the sketch - we haven't moved beyond it imo.
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I would suggest that the whole discussion here is an illustration of us not doing classical music well. Previn wanted to make it popular and was excoriated for that. In part that was the genius of the sketch - we haven't moved beyond it imo.
Rainer Hersch has some good funny live orchestral pieces IMO.
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Rainer Hersch has some good funny live orchestral pieces IMO.
Luvverly luvverly Rainer is recognized by what % of the UK?
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I would suggest that the whole discussion here is an illustration of us not doing classical music well. Previn wanted to make it popular and was excoriated for that.
I'm not sure anyone here certainly is excoriating Previn for his desire to popularise classical music, including his decision to appear on M&W. Certainly not me - I think it was a great opportunity, a smart move on his part to agree to do it and it is a great sketch. My point is that we shouldn't define his career by that performance and that is most definitely isn't the high point of his career (although it might arguably be the high point of M&W's careers).
In part that was the genius of the sketch -
In a weird way that so many in the UK still see Previn defined by that sketch demonstrates, sadly, that he actually failed in his attempt to popularise classical music. If people see that sketch as the high point of his career then all he achieved was to make himself very well known in the UK, rather than to make classical music more accessible and well known.
Actually, in my view, Music Night was much more faithful to the vision of popularising classical music and more pioneering - the notion of a conductor and an orchestra engaging directly with an audience on prime time tv and focussing on serious classic music in a serious (albeit unstuffy manner), was revolutionary. And for that we need to thank Previn's fellow traveller on that vision, John Culshaw. And he deserves thanks too for being visionary enough to agree to ask Previn on Ammond's behalf to do M&W and to be the person who gained his approval. As custodian of Previn's Music Night contract he'd have been perfectly within his rights to say 'over my dead body - I'm protecting the image of my star and my programme, no way is he going to made to look stupid on a comedy sketch'. But he didn't.
Sadly Culshaw died earlier and younger than even Eric Morecambe.
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Luvverly luvverly Rainer is recognized by what % of the UK?
I don't know.
What is the answer?
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I don't know.
What is the answer?
Genuine question - Morecambe and Wise are recognised by what % of the UK population?
They were without doubt huge stars in the late 60s and 70s and people old enough to have seen them then remember them implicitly. But I don't think they have worn well - I don't see new generations of people, too young to have seen them then, coming to them fresh years later and loving them, unlike some artists.
So I suspect they have a weird cliff edge of recognition:
Over 50 - huge recognition factor
Under 40 - really low recognition factor
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I'm not sure anyone here certainly is excoriating Previn for his desire to popularise classical music, including his decision to appear on M&W. Certainly not me
I didn't say anyone on here had. Read what was written.
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Genuine question - Morecambe and Wise are recognised by what % of the UK population?
They were without doubt huge stars in the late 60s and 70s and people old enough to have seen them then remember them implicitly. But I don't think they have worn well - I don't see new generations of people, too young to have seen them then, coming to them fresh years later and loving them, unlike some artists.
So I suspect they have a weird cliff edge of recognition:
Over 50 - huge recognition factor
Under 40 - really low recognition factor
Try Mike Yarwood for a drop.
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I don't know.
What is the answer?
The only way to settle this is...
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I didn't say anyone on here had. Read what was written.
Fair enough - just clarifying.
Who is it you were referring to NS - I wasn't only 5 when the 1971 Xmas special came out so I'm too young to remember, but in the intervening years I struggling to think of anyone criticising Previn for going on M&W, nor for producing Music Night.
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I cannot think that anything similar would happen today.
Anything similar to what?
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Matter of opinion, but I cannot agree with you.
The sketch was a high point of M&W's career - it was not a high point of Previn's career.
Just my opinion.
I think that's a kind of snobbery. Your implication is that classical music is somehow better than great comedy.
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I would suggest that the whole discussion here is an illustration of us not doing classical music well. Previn wanted to make it popular and was excoriated for that. In part that was the genius of the sketch - we haven't moved beyond it imo.
Who excoriated Previn's attempts to make classical music available to the masses?
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Who excoriated Previn's attempts to make classical music available to the masses?
Here No one. Externally his music night was challenged in my view.
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Fair enough - just clarifying.
Who is it you were referring to NS - I wasn't only 5 when the 1971 Xmas special came out so I'm too young to remember, but in the intervening years I struggling to think of anyone criticising Previn for going on M&W, nor for producing Music Night.
What relevance is that to your strawman?
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Externally his music night was challenged in my view.
By whom NS - I'm not aware of anyone criticising Previn for Music Night. Albeit I was a child when Music Night was being broadcast so I may not have been aware of this criticism, but as you've made the assertion I assume you have some evidence to back it up, which I'd be interested to hear.
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I think that's a kind of snobbery. Your implication is that classical music is somehow better than great comedy.
Rubbish - my implication is that the high point of the career of a classical musician will necessarily be to do with his achievements in the field of classical music, not in the field of comedy.
Likewise the high point of the career of a comedian or comic actor will necessarily be to do with his achievements in the field of comedy or comic acting, not in the field of classical music (or sports or pipe smoking etc, etc).
That isn't implying one field is 'better' than another - there is no snobbery.
In a manner your argument that the M&W sketch is the high point of Previn's career is an argument from popularity - that the most important thing is necessarily the most popular. Alternatively it could be an argument from ignorance - that as you don't really have vision of the rest of Previn's career and achievements with enough understanding to judge their importance you simply opt for the one thing about him you know really well. Neither are good arguments.
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What relevance is that to your strawman?
What straw man? All I did was to ask you who excoriated Previn for trying to make classical music popular. You've clarified that you didn't mean anyone on this MB - thanks for that, but failed to tell me (nor Jeremy) who you mean.
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Try Mike Yarwood for a drop.
I'm no fan of Mike Yarwood, but to be fair to him it is almost impossible for his type of comedy to translate to future generations, as it involved impressions of people who were famous and in the news at the time.
I can see how the Monty Python parrot sketch or the M&W breakfast sketch are perfectly intelligible to a current 17 year old (regardless of whether they find them funny). But Mike Yarwood doing an impression of Eddie Waring ?!?! it is totally bewildering unless you know who Eddie Waring is.
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Last night was choir night for me so it's time to share another second, third or n-th hand Andre Previn story.
As you might imagine our musical director told us that the last 7 days since we last saw him have been wall-to-wall Andre Previn stories in his professional music world, as many of the people he sees had worked with him and knew him well over many years.
Anyhow this story relates to a time when Previn had a part time teaching position (I think at Princeton) and was in discussion with a colleague the best way to get the most out of students and their personal experiences when they were younger.
Previn told him how at the age of 16 he was taught by Ernst Toch (check him out on wiki). Toch was about 60 at the time but he and Previn had similar heritage - Toch being an Austrian Jew who'd fled to the USA during the Nazi period and also ended up in California. Toch was a pretty big cheese at the time, and most notably was a major figure in Hollywood producing film music, something Previn was trying to break into at the time. So Toch would have been important and influential to Previn.
Anyhow Toch spent an hour with Previn making him play Mozart, Beethoven, Bach etc without a word of comment. At the end of this marathon session Toch stood up and announced to Previn - 'I have listened to you and I have concluded that you are completely without talent'.
Now Previn and his colleague agreed this to be an appalling way to engage with a student - how you should always be positive and encouraging, particularly to a 16 year old.
Previn's colleague returned to the story and said to Previn 'you must have been devastated to have been told you were talentless, particularly by someone like Toch. I wouldn't have been surprised if you'd been speechless - was there anything you could think of to say to him'.
'Oh yes' replied Previn 'I simply told him to fuck off!!'
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Last night was choir night for me so it's time to share another second, third or n-th hand Andre Previn story.
As you might imagine our musical director told us that the last 7 days since we last saw him have been wall-to-wall Andre Previn stories in his professional music world, as many of the people he sees had worked with him and knew him well over many years.
Anyhow this story relates to a time when Previn had a part time teaching position (I think at Princeton) and was in discussion with a colleague the best way to get the most out of students and their personal experiences when they were younger.
Previn told him how at the age of 16 he was taught by Ernst Toch (check him out on wiki). Toch was about 60 at the time but he and Previn had similar heritage - Toch being an Austrian Jew who'd fled to the USA during the Nazi period and also ended up in California. Toch was a pretty big cheese at the time, and most notably was a major figure in Hollywood producing film music, something Previn was trying to break into at the time. So Toch would have been important and influential to Previn.
Anyhow Toch spent an hour with Previn making him play Mozart, Beethoven, Bach etc without a word of comment. At the end of this marathon session Toch stood up and announced to Previn - 'I have listened to you and I have concluded that you are completely without talent'.
Now Previn and his colleague agreed this to be an appalling way to engage with a student - how you should always be positive and encouraging, particularly to a 16 year old.
Previn's colleague returned to the story and said to Previn 'you must have been devastated to have been told you were talentless, particularly by someone like Toch. I wouldn't have been surprised if you'd been speechless - was there anything you could think of to say to him'.
'Oh yes' replied Previn 'I simply told him to fuck off!!'
OK - not entirely accurate but pretty close:
https://vimeo.com/140204929?fbclid=IwAR1lhsRihBTDksSt7ZMcdY8-0JKq9KuuOIMzQPumyg9FwaNeMn7kczrV8yA
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Previn's colleague returned to the story and said to Previn 'you must have been devastated to have been told you were talentless, particularly by someone like Toch. I wouldn't have been surprised if you'd been speechless - was there anything you could think of to say to him'.
'Oh yes' replied Previn 'I simply told him to fuck off!!'
Nice story. It may be of significance that Toch is still best known to the world by (and perhaps only by) the spoken Geographical Fugue. (Quite clever, but only marginally better than Rap in my opinion - which rates its musical value at pretty close to zero)
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Nice story. It may be of significance that Toch is still best known to the world by (and perhaps only by) the spoken Geographical Fugue. (Quite clever, but only marginally better than Rap in my opinion - which rates its musical value at pretty close to zero)
Indeed - although I gather Toch didn't think it was consequential himself.
A bit of a bizarre piece in my opinion. I'm not a fan of rap but I can see it's merits more than the Geographical Fugue, which is apparently almost the same in its original German and its English translation. I've only heard the English where Trinidad seems rather prominent and is, I gather, one of the place names that is different in the German.