Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Aruntraveller on March 15, 2019, 08:57:17 AM
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Another day, another atrocity. The shock to many of us is that it could happen in such a leafy place as New Zealand. A relatively well ordered place. But then terrorism knows no bounds.
Expressions of sympathy and regret for those lost is a given. Grief, heartbreak, sorrow and anger all arriving as surely as the dawn will tomorrow.
And yet, the New Zealand PM expressing something I have heard in varying forms from leaders all over the world worries me.
What she expressed was the thought that "this is not who we are" - referring to the NZ people. This is, I think an understandable attempt at building a feeling of community or solidarity. However it feels like a misstep to me. It "others" those people who carried out the atrocity and makes the rest of us think it is not our problem. Nothing to do with us.
And yet it is, this IS who we are, at least in part. These things don't happen in isolation. TO even begin to deal with these issues we have to recognise that this is indeed, who we are.
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Thoughts and prayers with the good people of New Zealand today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dPcj_aC8fk&app=desktop
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Beyond shocking! >:( I can think of one world leader who would probably be on the side of the shooters!
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Not sure about a world leader but Fraser Anning gets close to supporting.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/03/15/right-wing-australian-senator-blames-immigration-new-zealand-mosque-attacks/?utm_term=.6c9eba0e50b3
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Another day, another atrocity. The shock to many of us is that it could happen in such a leafy place as New Zealand. A relatively well ordered place. But then terrorism knows no bounds.
Expressions of sympathy and regret for those lost is a given. Grief, heartbreak, sorrow and anger all arriving as surely as the dawn will tomorrow.
And yet, the New Zealand PM expressing something I have heard in varying forms from leaders all over the world worries me.
What she expressed was the thought that "this is not who we are" - referring to the NZ people. This is, I think an understandable attempt at building a feeling of community or solidarity. However it feels like a misstep to me. It "others" those people who carried out the atrocity and makes the rest of us think it is not our problem. Nothing to do with us.
And yet it is, this IS who we are, at least in part. These things don't happen in isolation. TO even begin to deal with these issues we have to recognise that this is indeed, who we are.
Very shocking. The lovely young guy from Bangladesh who taught my children to recite the Quran emigrated to New Zealand a few years ago, got married, had children so my first thought was to check if he was safe. He was.
It does seem more shocking that it happened in New Zealand, with its strict gun laws (unlike places such as Pakistan or the US where everyone has fairly easy access to guns) as I don't associate the country with extremism. But I was shocked about Anders Breivik and Norway for the same reason, and apparently the suspect in this New Zealand shooting wrote "“I have read the writings of Dylann Roof and many others, but only really took true inspiration from Knight Justiciar Breivik,” They are both white supremacists and wanted to avenge “thousands of deaths caused by foreign invaders”. Except New Zealand has a small Muslim community so this may have been more about picking a target that would generate publicity. Plus it happened during Friday Jummah prayers (compulsory to go to mosque) so he could be assured of a packed crowd in an enclosed space.
Maybe the New Zealand PM meant most of us can't comprehend the mindset and thinking that would do this. I can understand and relate to frustration, anger etc, I can even understand racist thoughts though can't relate to them, but to take it to the level of a deliberate murderous action such as planned mass violence on unarmed people makes them the "other". Pretty much the way I feel about Muslim supremacists who do the same.
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The issue that I have with the idea that these people are not of us is that it plays into the idea that 'white terrorism' is a set of lone wolves as opposed to the more evil organised terrorism of the 'others'. It also allows the politicians and media who play a part in creating the hatred to avoid questions about that. Link below to thread on this
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1106408644181139456.html
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Maybe the New Zealand PM meant most of us can't comprehend the mindset and thinking that would do this. I can understand and relate to frustration, anger etc, I can even understand racist thoughts though can't relate to them, but to take it to the level of a deliberate murderous action such as planned mass violence on unarmed people makes them the "other". Pretty much the way I feel about Muslim supremacists who do the same.
Most probably the NZ mosques were chosen for ease of access and maximizing publicity. to me it seems there is no real difference between such events in different locations or by or for different religions, ethnicity or politics.
The terrorists are "other", but as Trent says these things don't happen in isolation .. they start off just as any one of "us" or anyone else with similar inherited characteristics and in similar environments. They become "other" and this in turn also directs their actions.
People should be able to see this happening and intervene to stop it resulting in these tragedies?
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The issue that I have with the idea that these people are not of us is that it plays into the idea that 'white terrorism' is a set of lone wolves as opposed to the more evil organised terrorism of the 'others'. It also allows the politicians and media who play a part in creating the hatred to avoid questions about that. Link below to thread on this
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1106408644181139456.html
It's a difficult one. Yes I agree there is a right-wing ideological infrastructure that can recruit through social media. We already see how hard it is to combat slick operations like this - the number of people groomed and recruited by ISIS online is baffling, and ISIS do not even have a legitimate presence in the UK. And the way people managed to tap into the feelings that led to some people voting Brexit to preserve their English identity from foreigners shows that the rampage can be economic rather than bullets.
I think it is important to challenge "politicians, academics & media heads who give right-wing extremist ideology a platform and spout it under the guise of "free speech" and fighting "political correctness." It only becomes worrying when challenging such speech turns into intolerance to silence legitimate concerns, dissent.or contentious views. Also, a counter-tactic that seems to have developed against being challenged is to dismiss the facts as "fake news" as some people just aren't prepared to change the beliefs that they hold.
Another concern I have would be to ensure that ethnic minorities who spout intolerance are challenged as robustly as anyone else. It was frustrating seeing authorities allow people to play the race card or the religious/ cultural minority card to perpetuate unwanted behaviour and it makes their race/religion/ culture become a point of focus for hate.
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Seen on twitter
"We've never seen white supremacist violence in New Zealand"
"How do think New Zealand became called New Zealand"
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I hear ,I see , I say nothing
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The sheer cowardice of it, guns against unarmed people, I guess this is the MO of fascism, gutless twats, bragging on social media.
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Pretty much
ttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/15/islamophobia-christchurch-shooting-anti-muslim-bigotry-new-zealand?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
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Pretty much
ttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/15/islamophobia-christchurch-shooting-anti-muslim-bigotry-new-zealand?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
The link without the missing "h"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/15/islamophobia-christchurch-shooting-anti-muslim-bigotry-new-zealand?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
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Thanks to jeremyp for correcting my miscopying. But also this
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/15/prevent-another-christchurch-confront-right-hate-preachers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Thoughts and prayers with the good people of New Zealand today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dPcj_aC8fk&app=desktop
Just beautiful, thank you, Jim.
The world stands with New Zealand in their time of sorrow..
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The usual slimeballs are blaming Muslims for the attack, I see that Yiannopoulos has been banned from Australia for foul comments. But then anti-Islam comments are widespread today, and are quite respectable. They tend to deny that this has anything to do with violence, yeah, good joke.
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Yes - if the problem is violent, barbaric Muslim supremacists as Yiannopoulos claims, he doesn't explain why the white supremacist didn't hunt for some violent, barbaric Muslim supremacists in New Zealand, rather than shoot unarmed people peacefully praying in a mosque.
I've read some people saying the shoe is on the other foot now, with Muslims being afraid of white supremacist non-Muslim terrorism rather than non-Muslims being afraid of supremacist Muslim terrorism. The 2 sets of extremists feed off each other.
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They tend to be cowards, I mean the anti-Islam people. Keyboard warriors, or like this guy, kill unarmed people. Yes, there is a kind of mirror image of IS.
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The evil white supremacists would consider all Muslims fair game, just as the equally evil ISIS terrorists would regard all non Muslins targets.
We should be offering the hand of friendship to all moderate Muslims who are in the majority, whilst protesting against white supremacist scum who are evil.
I heard on the lunchtime news that churches in NZ are allowing Muslims to hold their acts of worship in them, whilst the mosques are closed.
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Bizarre that the killer apparently referred to immigration and "invaders", when most of the population of NZ and OZ are invaders, and killed off many indigenous people, less so in NZ I suppose, where Maori culture seems respected.
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Report in the Guardian that in the 2nd mosque, there were a group of elderly people, sitting and praying, and he started to fire at them. Good God, the inhumanity.
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Bizarre that the killer apparently referred to immigration and "invaders", when most of the population of NZ and OZ are invaders, and killed off many indigenous people, less so in NZ I suppose, where Maori culture seems respected.
Likewise the UK is made up of 'invaders' who have come to live here over the centuries.
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Likewise the UK is made up of 'invaders' who have come to live here over the centuries.
Which goes to show what bullshit this anti immigrant stuff is. We are all descended from immigrants.
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Which goes to show what bullshit this anti immigrant stuff is. We are all descended from immigrants.
Precisely, I suppose I could be regarded as an immigrant as I wasn't born in the UK.
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I went to a very moving and inspiring event at Regent’s Park Mosque today that was introduced as an event for people of all faiths and none to show solidarity against the extremism and terrorist act carried out in Christchurch. Some of the speakers there included the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby, London Mayor Sadiq Khan, the Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis, the Home Secretary Sajid Javid, founding Chair of City Sikhs, Jasvir Singh, a female Muslim scholar whose name I'm afraid don't recall. I briefly spoke to Laura Janner-Klausner, Senior Rabbi of the Reform Movement, as we shared a lift going down to leave the event.
All the speakers mentioned that an attack on one community was an attack on all communities as there is no “us” and “them”. One of the main organisers of the event spoke very warmly about the Orthodox Chief Rabbi’s support and enthusiasm for the event at Regent's Park mosque, highlighting that the Chief Rabbi was the first high profile leader to commit to attending the event, which made it easier for other high profile speakers to come on board. The Chief Rabbi spoke very powerfully about how we should endeavour to be measured in our speech so that we celebrate that which we have in common rather than focus on our differences. All the speakers highlighted how casually divisive speech by mainstream society can embolden extremists.
The Archbishop of Canterbury also gave a moving speech about how upset and sorry he was for what had happened in New Zealand and how we must all pledge to act to change the society that allows such hatred of any community to exist and grow. He pledged that as the Church of England runs thousands of schools and teaches over a million children, at the next meeting of the Bishops they will discuss what they can put into action in their schools to improve their Good Neighbour initiative to guide pupils away from speech and thought that allows divisiveness to flourish in society.
I think all of those speakers talking about the harm done by the words we use has caused me to have a re-think about the importance of moderating speech and promoting political correctness.
Sadiq Khan said that on Friday, while he was attending Friday prayers in East London mosque, there was a touching call from the Bishop of London to check that the congregation in the mosque was ok, following the mass shooting in NZ. He said, similarly in mosques all over London, Rabbis and Christian clergy were calling and checking with mosques if they were ok and to assure them of their support. I don’t know if any of this will get reported by the national media but the solidarity of non-Muslims with the Muslim community was wonderful and hope like-minded Muslims will be equally vocal in their solidarity with other communities, including the Hindu community, or the Jewish community when they encounter anti-Semitic threats and violence, or the Christian community when they face persecution e.g. in Pakistan and Egypt.
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This dreadful atrocity has made headline news for several days, and rightly so. Our local church congregation has been praying for the unfortunate victims of these evil terrorists.
Back in January this year, a similar terrorist attack was made by bombing a Christian cathedral in the Philippines, killing 20 people who were attending the church service.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47018747
But this did not get much publicity, and many people I have mentioned it to were unaware of it. At the time I could not understand why such an atrocity did not get wide publicity such as we have seen for the recent New Zealand attack.
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I went to a very moving and inspiring event at Regent’s Park Mosque today that was introduced as an event for people of all faiths and none to show solidarity against the extremism and terrorist act carried out in Christchurch. Some of the speakers there included the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby, London Mayor Sadiq Khan, the Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis, the Home Secretary Sajid Javid, founding Chair of City Sikhs, Jasvir Singh, a female Muslim scholar whose name I'm afraid don't recall. I briefly spoke to Laura Janner-Klausner, Senior Rabbi of the Reform Movement, as we shared a lift going down to leave the event.
All the speakers mentioned that an attack on one community was an attack on all communities as there is no “us” and “them”. One of the main organisers of the event spoke very warmly about the Orthodox Chief Rabbi’s support and enthusiasm for the event at Regent's Park mosque, highlighting that the Chief Rabbi was the first high profile leader to commit to attending the event, which made it easier for other high profile speakers to come on board. The Chief Rabbi spoke very powerfully about how we should endeavour to be measured in our speech so that we celebrate that which we have in common rather than focus on our differences. All the speakers highlighted how casually divisive speech by mainstream society can embolden extremists.
The Archbishop of Canterbury also gave a moving speech about how upset and sorry he was for what had happened in New Zealand and how we must all pledge to act to change the society that allows such hatred of any community to exist and grow. He pledged that as the Church of England runs thousands of schools and teaches over a million children, at the next meeting of the Bishops they will discuss what they can put into action in their schools to improve their Good Neighbour initiative to guide pupils away from speech and thought that allows divisiveness to flourish in society.
I think all of those speakers talking about the harm done by the words we use has caused me to have a re-think about the importance of moderating speech and promoting political correctness.
Sadiq Khan said that on Friday, while he was attending Friday prayers in East London mosque, there was a touching call from the Bishop of London to check that the congregation in the mosque was ok, following the mass shooting in NZ. He said, similarly in mosques all over London, Rabbis and Christian clergy were calling and checking with mosques if they were ok and to assure them of their support. I don’t know if any of this will get reported by the national media but the solidarity of non-Muslims with the Muslim community was wonderful and hope like-minded Muslims will be equally vocal in their solidarity with other communities, including the Hindu community, or the Jewish community when they encounter anti-Semitic threats and violence, or the Christian community when they face persecution e.g. in Pakistan and Egypt.
I am glad that clergy of others faiths are encouraging people to be supportive of Muslims after the terrible racist attack in NZ.
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At the time I could not understand why such an atrocity did not get wide publicity such as we have seen for the recent New Zealand attack.
That implies you do understand now. What is the reason? My thought is that the Philippines is not a nation of Western Europeans.
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Moderator Please note I've split the discussion of the Sri Lanka bombings into its own thread.