Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Roses on November 12, 2019, 01:58:56 PM
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We all know that smoking tobacco is very harmful to the lungs, apparently half of all smokers die due to smoking related diseases.
People thought vaping was safer but that appears not to be the case.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50377256
I am so very grateful none of my close family smoke.
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People thought vaping was safer but that appears not to be the case.
One case like this, tragic as it is, does not mean that vaping isn't safer than smoking, all it shows is that it isn't risk-free.
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Just as it took a long time (partly due to the deliberate obfuscation of vested interests) to establish that tobacco was as dangerous as it is, so it's likely to take a long time (in the face of perhaps similar obfuscation from some of the same vested interests) to establish a sufficient body of evidence to show that vaping is harmful, and to determine the extent.
In the short term, where it's not clear how dangerous (if at all) vaping intrinsically is, there is a case to be argued that if it gets people off of tobacco, which we know to be lethal in a high proportion of cases, it's probably beneficial, as there aren't many things we do that aren't immediately lethal that are as likely to kill as smoking tobacco.
I recall hearing today (I think BBC's 'Analysis' podcast?) that 8 million people a year, worldwide, die of smoking related conditions; if vaping reduces that to, say, six-million with a further million vaping related deaths, that's a net benefit. It's not as good as nobody smoking or vaping, I'll grant you, but sometimes pragmatism has its place.
O.
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One case like this, tragic as it is, does not mean that vaping isn't safer than smoking, all it shows is that it isn't risk-free.
Surely it is far better not to indulge in either smoking or vaping.
Another unpleasant thing about vaping is it creates an awful lot of smoke. A while back my husband saw smoke coming over the fence from our neighbour's garden, it was only when the smell hit us we realised it wasn't a fire but the young chap vaping.
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Just as it took a long time (partly due to the deliberate obfuscation of vested interests) to establish that tobacco was as dangerous as it is, so it's likely to take a long time (in the face of perhaps similar obfuscation from some of the same vested interests) to establish a sufficient body of evidence to show that vaping is harmful, and to determine the extent.
In the short term, where it's not clear how dangerous (if at all) vaping intrinsically is, there is a case to be argued that if it gets people off of tobacco, which we know to be lethal in a high proportion of cases, it's probably beneficial, as there aren't many things we do that aren't immediately lethal that are as likely to kill as smoking tobacco.
I recall hearing today (I think BBC's 'Analysis' podcast?) that 8 million people a year, worldwide, die of smoking related conditions; if vaping reduces that to, say, six-million with a further million vaping related deaths, that's a net benefit. It's not as good as nobody smoking or vaping, I'll grant you, but sometimes pragmatism has its place.
O.
The figure quoted in the article is that vaping is 95% safer than cigarettes. I'm not quite sure what that means exactly but probably vaping is quite a bit safer than cigarettes so if every smoker switched to vaping, many fewer people would die because of their nicotine addiction.
As the article says "smoking is pretty much the worst thing you can do for your health", although, personally, I would have thought it is less dangerous than jumping off tall buildings or juggling with chainsaws.
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Surely it is far better not to indulge in either smoking or vaping.
Of course it is, but, if you are addicted to nicotine, vaping is a safer way to satisfy your craving.
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Of course it is, but, if you are addicted to nicotine, vaping is a safer way to satisfy your craving.
But is it though, there have been reports from the US, which bring that into doubt.
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But is it though, there have been reports from the US, which bring that into doubt.
Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure.
CDC
The deaths of 39 people in the US have been connected to vaping and have prompted worldwide concern about its safety. There have been 2,051 cases of e-cigarette, or vaping, product use associated lung injury (called EVALI) in the outbreak
BBC
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What is lacking with vaping is long term studies because it is a relatively new phenomenon.
WE have decades of medical evidence about the ill effects of tobacco, but precious little for vaping. It could be just an unfortunate few that have an adverse reaction, or it could be that over time we will see more and more people affected. AS yet, we don't have enough evidence to go on. Proceed with caution is the best we've got.
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One single very exceptional case proves nothing. He had a rare reaction to it. Some people are allergic to milk. are you going to ban that?
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But is it though
Yes.
there have been reports from the US, which bring that into doubt.
I'm not saying vaping is safe, I'm saying it's safer than smoking. Yes, it would be better if people didn't vape or smoke at all, but that is cloud cuckoo territory.
Furthermore there are disturbing implications to banning things just because they can be harmful to some people. Steve mentioned milk allergies. I like peanuts but people have died from eating them so they should be banned, right?
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Yes.
I'm not saying vaping is safe, I'm saying it's safer than smoking. Yes, it would be better if people didn't vape or smoke at all, but that is cloud cuckoo territory.
Furthermore there are disturbing implications to banning things just because they can be harmful to some people. Steve mentioned milk allergies. I like peanuts but people have died from eating them so they should be banned, right?
You are not comparing like with like. Food allergies are very different to deliberately harming yourself by smoking or vaping.
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You are not comparing like with like. Food allergies are very different to deliberately harming yourself by smoking or vaping.
The story that you opened this thread with was about somebody nearly dying because they had an allergy to the chemicals in vape (if that's what you call it). It's exactly analogous to somebody nearly dying because of an allergy to peanuts.
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The story that you opened this thread with was about somebody nearly dying because they had an allergy to the chemicals in vape (if that's what you call it). It's exactly analogous to somebody nearly dying because of an allergy to peanuts.
People with food allergies avoid the foods those foods. No one who smokes is unaware of how dangerous it can be so if they take up the ghastly habit, they know it could eventually kill them. Now vaping has been flagged up as likely to be dangerous too it is best to avoid doing it.
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But is it though, there have been reports from the US, which bring that into doubt.
For Information
Many of the patients affected by the illnesses in the US have admitted buying their e-liquids off the street. About 86% have reported using products containing tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), a substance found in cannabis that produces the ‘high’ sensation associated with smoking the drug. 34% reported exclusive use of THC-containing products. THC is legal in some states in the US, but it’s illegal in the UK. Recent labatory tests by The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the US have found vitamin E acetate - a substance used in some THC-containing e-liquids - in samples from people affected. This is the first time that scientists have found a chemical of concern in patients with these lung injuries.
https://yorkshirecancerresearch.org.uk/news/in-the-news-is-it-safe-to-keep-vaping?gclid=EAIaIQobChMInous247n5QIVSbDtCh0ANwrdEAAYASAAEgIA2fD_BwE
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People with food allergies avoid the foods those foods.
They don't before they find out that they have got the allergy. I guarantee that the young man in your link will avoid vaping in the future.
No one who smokes is unaware of how dangerous it can be so if they take up the ghastly habit, they know it could eventually kill them. Now vaping has been flagged up as likely to be dangerous too it is best to avoid doing it.
But you know smoking is addictive, right? People who are smokers know it is bad for them, but they can't give up because they are addicted. Vaping is less bad for them, even if it is still a bit dangerous. It's an improvement on smoking.
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They don't before they find out that they have got the allergy. I guarantee that the young man in your link will avoid vaping in the future.
But you know smoking is addictive, right? People who are smokers know it is bad for them, but they can't give up because they are addicted. Vaping is less bad for them, even if it is still a bit dangerous. It's an improvement on smoking.
They are crazy to start in the first place knowing it is dangerous and addictive, I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.
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They are crazy to start in the first place knowing it is dangerous and addictive, I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.
It is what it is. People start smoking because they did and do. Get addicted. Want to stop. Choose vaping because it IS safer.
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There are other ways of giving up smoking which are safe, vaping seems a bit 'posery' to me, I've not known anyone who has done it but several people who gave up the weed successfully with other types of help.
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There are other ways of giving up smoking which are safe, vaping seems a bit 'posery' to me, I've not known anyone who has done it but several people who gave up the weed successfully with other types of help.
I successfully gave up smoking back in 2011 using supermarket own berand of nicotine lozenges
£7 for 72 tabs which last about a week . Also flying to NZ was a powerful motivator .
I haven't touched a cig since !
To be honest not smoking has NOT improved my asthma ?
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I successfully gave up smoking back in 2011 using supermarket own berand of nicotine lozenges
£7 for 72 tabs which last about a week . Also flying to NZ was a powerful motivator .
I haven't touched a cig since !
To be honest not smoking has NOT improved my asthma ?
Well done you, and your asthma might well have worsened had you not stopped smoking.
I was amazed to learn recently that the cost of a pack of 20 cigarettes is now around £10, so your wallet will have benefited too.
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People with food allergies avoid the foods those foods. No one who smokes is unaware of how dangerous it can be so if they take up the ghastly habit, they know it could eventually kill them. Now vaping has been flagged up as likely to be dangerous too it is best to avoid doing it.
Yes, of course it is best to avoid both, but vaping is much safer than smoking, and is a good way of giving up.
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Well done you, and your asthma might well have worsened had you not stopped smoking.
I was amazed to learn recently that the cost of a pack of 20 cigarettes is now around £10, so your wallet will have benefited too.
thanks Gordon
I think the last pack of fags I bought was about £4.50
I'll have to sit down and work out how much money I've saved 👍
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Yes, of course it is best to avoid both, but vaping is much safer than smoking, and is a good way of giving up.
It isn't much safer than smoking if apparently people have died due to vaping.
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It isn't much safer than smoking if apparently people have died due to vaping.
Who has died due to it? The young man in the news item didn't. It is much safer than smoking, but not completely safe.
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It isn't much safer than smoking if apparently people have died due to vaping.
Would you agree that driving a car is safer than riding a motorcycle even though people do sometimes die driving cars?
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It isn't much safer than smoking if apparently people have died due to vaping.
So getting out of bed is as unsafe as rock climbing by this 'logic'.
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So getting out of bed is as unsafe as rock climbing by this 'logic'.
As usual you are not comparing like with like. ::)
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As usual you are not comparing like with like. ::)
I was though. I made essentially the same point as NS but using two modes of motorised transport.
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Surely as vaping has been flagged up as having problems it would be better to avoid switching from one harmful thing to another?
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As usual you are not comparing like with like. ::)
You have the same grasp of logic as Boris Johnson has grasp of the truth.
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Surely as vaping has been flagged up as having problems it would be better to avoid switching from one harmful thing to another?
Driving cars has been flagged up as having problems.
Getting out of bed (https://www.theonion.com/report-getting-out-of-bed-in-morning-sharply-increases-1819578645) has been flagged up as having problems.
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What exactly would be the point of comparing like with like? "Oh look! This table is just like a table!". The whole point of making comparisons is the the items comared are NOT alike!
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It isn't much safer than smoking if apparently people have died due to vaping.
Plain wrong.
While vaping is a recently developed alternative, and while for some it may involve risks, it is still much safer in terms of mortality rates from the range of health conditions associated with tobacco. This details below apply just to England were updated just 3 days ago and confirms that compared to vaping tobacco is by magnitudes far more dangerous.
Smoking is the leading cause of premature death, killing 78,000 people in England each year. For every death caused by smoking, about 20 smokers are suffering from a smoking-related disease. In England in 2017 to 2018 there were an estimated 489,300 smoking-related admissions to hospital, equating to over 1,300 each day. One in 4 patients in hospital beds are smokers. Smokers also see their GP 35% more than non-smokers.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/smoking-and-tobacco-applying-all-our-health/smoking-and-tobacco-applying-all-our-health
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Surely as vaping has been flagged up as having problems it would be better to avoid switching from one harmful thing to another?
Giving up smoking is very difficult, so switching to something which satisfies the c raving, but is much less harmful (though not completely safe) makes sense. It isn't that hard to understand!
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People buried their heads in the sand when the dangers of smoking were first realised, it appears they are going to do the same about vaping.
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People buried their heads in the sand when the dangers of smoking were first realised, it appears they are going to do the same about vaping.
This isn't what anyone has said here.
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I have had my say, so I will leave it at that.
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Giving up smoking is very difficult...
Nah, giving up smoking is really easy, I've done it hundreds of times...
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Yes, of course it is best to avoid both, but vaping is much safer than smoking, and is a good way of giving up.
I can see that vaping is a good route to quitting smoking but should only be seen as an interim step to stopping completely (smoking and vaping).
But I think there is a slightly unexpected phenomenon where people, particularly young people, take up vaping when they have never smoked. In that case even if vaping is less risky than smoking it is more risky than doing neither. I don't think people sufficiently predicted non-smokers taking up vaping and this needs to be addressed. I certainly think that allowing vaping to be portrayed as cool and trendy (rather than a safer alternative to, and route away from, smoking) is a problem. Vaping/e-cigarette marketing should never be allowed to attract non-smokers.
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People buried their heads in the sand when the dangers of smoking were first realised, it appears they are going to do the same about vaping.
That is a gross oversimplification though: the risks may have been known to the tobacco companies decades ago but tobacco was heavily promoted via advertising and was portrayed as being a social norm for much of the 20th century, and many of us here will remember the TV commercials and recall that tobacco was treated as a core tax revenue stream - tobacco is addictive, and in effect people were encouraged to become addicts without realising the risks, and for addicts, once addicted, it isn't just as simple as making a choice not to smoke.
Now we know better, and we've removed advertising tobacco advertising and we legally disallow smoking in places where it was once seen as acceptable - but the legacy of addiction remains, and vaping does seem to have a role as a less dangerous alternative.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50434755
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50434755
Read the last two paragraphs of the article in particular and you'll see that it refers to some information that I've already provided.
It might be also worthwhile reading this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50436296