Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Steve H on November 21, 2019, 10:48:32 PM
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This is getting bloody ridiculous. The right are getting desperate. (https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/20/jeremy-corbyn-accused-anti-semitism-pronunciation-epsteins-name-11186885/)
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It certainly is ridiculous, did you read the comments below from David Baddiel and Gerald Ratner? I saw the debate and didn't notice how he said the name.
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David Baddiel will say and do anything to keep himself in the public eye .
He is a self serving has been who can't bear to think he's all washed up
Pathetic .
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David Baddiel will say and do anything to keep himself in the public eye .
He is a self serving has been who can't bear to think he's all washed up
Pathetic .
Let's just dismiss Jewish people's view because they are 'self serving'
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Let's just dismiss Jewish people's view because they are 'self serving'
Walter said Baddiel was self-serving, not that all Jewish people were. Jews are as capable as anyone else of being over-sensitive, and pretending to be offended, both of which are excessively common in these snowflakey days.
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It certainly is ridiculous, did you read the comments below from David Baddiel and Gerald Ratner? I saw the debate and didn't notice how he said the name.
I did notice the difference in pronunciation - but thought nothing of it, any more than when watching a programme where one commentator kept referring to Ther-ay-sa May rather than The-ee-sa May.
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I read about this yesterday. Apparently there are at least 4 ways of pronouncing Epstein, all of which are equally acceptable. The common ones are these (From memory) Epsteen, Epstine, Ephstine, Ephsteen. The last 2 are arguably more correct as they recognise the German pronunciation of what was originally a German town.
A fuss over nothing.
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I read about this yesterday. Apparently there are at least 4 ways of pronouncing Epstein, all of which are equally acceptable. The common ones are these (From memory) Epsteen, Epstine, Ephstine, Ephsteen. The last 2 are arguably more correct as they recognise the German pronunciation of what was originally a German town.
A fuss over nothing.
I think the correct pronunciation is the one he and his family use themselves. No idea what that is, but the media have tended to use Epsteen universally in the UK. Whether that is how his family pronounce their name I have no idea.
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Walter said Baddiel was self-serving, not that all Jewish people were. Jews are as capable as anyone else of being over-sensitive, and pretending to be offended, both of which are excessively common in these snowflakey days.
And Baddiel was not the only Jewish person to raise it - I'm loathe to dismiss the views of Jewish people on what they think is anti Semitism. Nor am I willing to assign motivations on the basis of a lazy generalisation
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Let's just dismiss Jewish people's view because they are 'self serving'
my post still stands no matter what spin YOU want to put on it .
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So what is this about? Corbyn pronounces Epstein's name wrongly allegedly in order to make him sound more Jewish?
Is it anti-semitic of me to point out that Epstein was Jewish (at least according to Wikipedia)?
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And Baddiel was not the only Jewish person to raise it - I'm loathe to dismiss the views of Jewish people on what they think is anti Semitism.
I'd prefer to to judge a view based on its merits, not the general class of who said it.
Anyway, Walter made a comment about a specific person, not Jews. He may be right or he may be wrong but even if David Baddiel is washed up and will say anything, it doesn't mean he (Baddiel) is wrong in this particular case (or right).
Nor am I willing to assign motivations on the basis of a lazy generalisation
I like the irony.
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I'd prefer to to judge a view based on its merits, not the general class of who said it.
Anyway, Walter made a comment about a specific person, not Jews. He may be right or he may be wrong but even if David Baddiel is washed up and will say anything, it doesn't mean he (Baddiel) is wrong in this particular case (or right).
I like the irony.
I'm not judging the merits of it but I'm aware that people who are Jewish might well be more attuned to what is anti semitic than I am. I agree that Walter's ad hominem is incorrect. Where is the irony?
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my post still stands no matter what spin YOU want to put on it .
All posts that are on the board 'still stand'. It's not exactly a significant claim.
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I'm not judging the merits of it but I'm aware that people who are Jewish might well be more attuned to what is anti semitic than I am. I agree that Walter's ad hominem is incorrect.
I think it's a classic ad hom.
Where is the irony?
In the previous sentence you made a lazy generalisation about the views of Jewish people.
To address this particular point in a more serious manner, it is problematic to give a particular class of people carte blanche in deciding what constitutes persecution of that class. For example, a Christian tells me that the shops being open on Sundays is persecution of Christians. Well, they would know, they're Christians, we'd better shut the shops. Another example: some Jewish people claim that criticism of Israel's policies towards Palestine is antisemitic. They're Jewish, they're more attuned to antisemitism, so we'd better stop criticising Israel.
David Baddiel thinks it is potentially antisemitic to pronounce Jeffrey Epstein's name in a more Jewish way. I assume that David Baddiel's reasoning is that the subtext is "Epstein the paedophile sex trafficker is Jewish. What do you expect from Jews?" Is it rational that Jeremy Corbyn would want to deliberately convey that message in the middle of an election campaign when he's already under scrutiny for antisemitism? I don't think so.
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Given the antisemitic issues in the Labour party, and the increased scrutiny on what precisely politicians say, or have said, and that this involves the leader of the Labour party, I can see that Jewish people might justifiably be sensitive to what, for most of us, would be an unusual pronunciation of Epstein (thinking of say, Brian Epstein).
Unless he explains himself, and it would be good to know if he had pronounced the name differently before, my guess is that he was probably trying to show that he was aware of how Jewish people might pronounce this name but was unaware that by doing so he could be seen as either being patronising or was highlighting the Jewishness of Epstein.
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There are no antisemitic "issues" in the Labour party. It's all a fabrication by Zionists and the Tory party. Supporting the Palestinians and criticising Israel is not antisemitic.
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I think it's a classic ad hom.
In the previous sentence you made a lazy generalisation about the views of Jewish people.
To address this particular point in a more serious manner, it is problematic to give a particular class of people carte blanche in deciding what constitutes persecution of that class. For example, a Christian tells me that the shops being open on Sundays is persecution of Christians. Well, they would know, they're Christians, we'd better shut the shops. Another example: some Jewish people claim that criticism of Israel's policies towards Palestine is antisemitic. They're Jewish, they're more attuned to antisemitism, so we'd better stop criticising Israel.
David Baddiel thinks it is potentially antisemitic to pronounce Jeffrey Epstein's name in a more Jewish way. I assume that David Baddiel's reasoning is that the subtext is "Epstein the paedophile sex trafficker is Jewish. What do you expect from Jews?" Is it rational that Jeremy Corbyn would want to deliberately convey that message in the middle of an election campaign when he's already under scrutiny for antisemitism? I don't think so.
I'm not giving anyone carte blanche to decide what is persecution but I'm allowing that they will be better placed that people not belonging to that group to notice persecution. I agree with you in this case I don't think he was but not all anti Semitism is a rational choice. We all have unconscious biases. Again I don't think this is an example but I'm honestly not close enough to it to make much of a judgement.
Oh and I think we are violently agreeing about the ad hom.
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There are no antisemitic "issues" in the Labour party. It's all a fabrication by Zionists and the Tory party. Supporting the Palestinians and criticising Israel is not antisemitic.
So Chris Williamson was suspended erroneously?
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It's also standard German pronunciation. Thus the word "Stein" is pronounced "shtein". What a fuss over nothing.
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It's also standard German pronunciation. Thus the word "Stein" is pronounced "shtein". What a fuss over nothing.
It's not nothing anymore, it's something. And the reason it is something rather than nothing is because certain people have put it into our heads.
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I'm not judging the merits of it but I'm aware that people who are Jewish might well be more attuned to what is anti semitic than I am. I agree that Walter's ad hominem is incorrect. Where is the irony?
There are some Jewish people who don’t agree that Jeremy Corbyn is racist and Labour is a racist institution. Michael Rosen, Noam Chomsky, Alexei Sayle and Miriam Margoyles to name a few.
So Chris Williamson was suspended erroneously?
Chris Williamson said Labour had been too apologetic in its response to the evidentially-challenged accusations of racism. He said Labour was being demonised as a racist party as a result. How is that anti-Semitic? It's the only evidence I've seen presented that he's a racist - if you know of something else he said that actually shows him being racist, I'd be interested to see it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Israeli_government#Critics_of_Israel_who_have_been_accused_of_antisemitism
Noam Chomsky argues that Israel's foreign minister Abba Eban equated anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism in an effort to "exploit anti-racist sentiment for political ends", citing statement Eban made in 1973: "One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all." Commenting on Eban's statement, Chomsky replied: "That is a convenient stand. It cuts off a mere 100 percent of critical comment!"
I read Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem a while ago. She was accused of anti-Semitism too, because she criticised the actions of some Jewish people during the war and Israel's conduct of Eichmann's prosecution.
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Well it's all very strange. Brian Epstein, the very late Beatles manager, was always referred to as Epstine unless my memory has got that wrong.
Still I always had my suspicions about that Mary Shelley woman. ;)
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Well it's all very strange. Brian Epstein, the very late Beatles manager, was always referred to as Epstine unless my memory has got that wrong.
Still I always had my suspicions about that Mary Shelley woman. ;)
You reminded me of Gene Wilder stabbing himself in the thigh. Fronkenshteen!!!
Thanks :)
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This is getting bloody ridiculous. The right are getting desperate. (http://www.religionethics.co.uk/2019/11/20/jeremy-corbyn-accused-anti-semitism-pronunciation-epsteins-name-11186885/)
I agree.
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Jezza
It most certainly was a classic ad Hom, a very useful tool in many cicumstances .
I used it here because I don't like Baddiel and I like to lob in a Granade occasionally to liven things up .
You're welcome .
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Jezza
It most certainly was a classic ad Hom, a very useful tool in many cicumstances .
I used it here because I don't like Baddiel and I like to lob in a Granade occasionally to liven things up .
You're welcome .
You must mean grenadine - always good with tequila and oj ...
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You must mean grenadine - always good with tequila and oj ...
thanks, don't mind if I do 👍
Auto correct isn't always 😤
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Epstein: epsteen, epstine, epshteen or epshtine ?
Weinstein: winestine, weensteen, winesteen, weenstine, wineshtine, weenshteen, wineshteen, weenshtine,
vinestine, veensteen, vinesteen, veenstine, vineshtine, veenshteen, vineshteen, veenshtine
Einstein: inestine or ineshtine - definitely not eenstine or inesteen etc.
Frankenstein: frankenstine or frankenshtine - definitely not frankensteen ...
Think e before i implies ay sound, i before e implies ee .. but itself doesn't work for "implies".
Given up now...
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It's also standard German pronunciation. Thus the word "Stein" is pronounced "shtein". What a fuss over nothing.
This particular issue may indeed be a fuss over nothing. However I don't think we should underestimate the significance of names, their pronunciation and their spelling etc within the Jewish cultural psyche. Don't forget that thousands of Jews felt the need to anglicise or even completely change their names to feel accepted as immigrants to the UK and USA when fleeing persecution in the 30s and earlier. Effectively this was a process of 'hiding' their jewishness as doors would close were it clear that they were indeed jewish. And the need to do this is inextricably linked to the persecution they were fleeing in the first place.
So don't underestimate the cultural importance of names.
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Well it's all very strange. Brian Epstein, the very late Beatles manager, was always referred to as Epstine unless my memory has got that wrong.
E before I in German is usually pronounced to rhyme with wine. I before e is usually pronounced to rhyme with ween. However, Jeffrey Epstein was an American. I guess he could pronounce his name in whatever way he liked.
Still I always had my suspicions about that Mary Shelley woman. ;)
It's pronounced Frankensteen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxxSIX3fmmo)
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E before I in German is usually pronounced to rhyme with wine. I before e is usually pronounced to rhyme with ween. However, Jeffrey Epstein was an American. I guess he could pronounce his name in whatever way he liked.
It's pronounced Frankensteen (http://www.religionethics.co.uk/watch?v=nxxSIX3fmmo)
Can't get to the link ... but isn't that in contradiction to your rule? What ethnic background did Shelly give him?
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Watching and listening to Jo Swinson on BBC1 atm, she firmly believes Corbyn has done little to combat antisemitism in the Labour Party. She hasn't actually said she thinks Jeremy C is antisemitic. I've heard others say same, the rumour must have started somewhere. I can't quite believe it, someone in the audience said that Corbyn been fighting antisemitism for more years than she has been on the earth & I would like to believe that because the idea of that sort of prejudice in a Labour leader doesn't sit well with me - but...why is this criticism so often aimed at him & the party?
I agree that the pronunciation of Epstein's name was nothing more than JeremyC trying to say it correctly, not an indication of anything sinister.
Oh BJ is coming on now. Wish I'd seen earlier part of programme, when I switched on Nicola Sturgeon (whom I quite admire) was just walking off the podium to the sound of the audience's applause. Not that that means owt, they're clapping everyone.
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Watched Corbyn and Sturgeon .. will watch the rest later or skip...
Thought Corbyn did very well, the format works better for him as he gets time to explain his position, not just repeat slogans.
One audience member did seem quite irate about anti-Semitism and misogyny but over an obscure incident.
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Think e before i implies ay sound, i before e implies ee .. but itself doesn't work for "implies".
Given up now...
"implies" is an English word, so it doesn't apply. English and German pronounce ei and ie the opposite way round from each other, cf English die (snuff it) and German die (feminine the). ei in German is pronounced "eye", and in English "ee", but I can't think of any English words with ei them: I think it's a rare letter-combination in English. Mind you, English id inconsistent, cf "thief", pronounced theef, not thife.
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"implies" is an English word, so it doesn't apply. English and German pronounce ei and ie the opposite way round from each other, cf English die (snuff it) and German die (feminine the). ei in German is pronounced "eye", and in English "ee", but I can't think of any English words with ei them: I think it's a rare letter-combination in English. Mind you, English id inconsistent, cf "thief", pronounced theef, not thife.
Yes, of-course. Thanks.
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Actually, thinking about it, it seems that ie in Emglsih is pronouced "eye" at the end of a word (die, lie, pie, and fie (as in "fie on't!" in Hamlet)), but "ee" within a word (thief, chief, relieve, grieve). I wonder if it's got anything to do with the great vowel shift of the late 14th Century onwards. I used to have a recording of the General Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, read in the original miiddle-English pronunciation, as far as we can work out what it was. I remember that the words "bake a pie" occur somewhere in it, and it was pronounced "bark a pea".
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I suppose German words in the US are sometimes americanized, as with Epstein, and sometimes not, Einstein. But then the Beatles' Epstein was pronounced like German. Weinstein has both.
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Can't get to the link ... but isn't that in contradiction to your rule? What ethnic background did Shelly give him?
I fixed the link, I think. If you watch it, all will become clear. If it still doesn't work, this is it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxxSIX3fmmo