Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Sriram on December 08, 2019, 12:19:18 PM
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Hi everyone,
Its surprising that a small country like the UK has so many internal differences.
https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2019/12/world/uk-election-scottish-independence/
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For Scottish voters, a key issue in the December 12 general election will be whether, in the long term, they want to remain part of the UK or to break away and become an independent country.
“Independence is not about ‘oh we hate the English,’” says 22-year-old Scot and pro-independence campaigner Iona Fraser-Collins. “It’s about us wanting to be in charge of our own laws, and England being in charge of its own laws.”
Scotland rejected independence at a 2014 referendum, 55% to 45%. But circumstances have changed dramatically since then, according to the Scottish National Party (SNP) -- the third-largest party in the UK Parliament.
In 2016 Scotsvoted overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union. Instead, they got Brexit – setting the country on a path it hadn’t agreed to and re-energizing the fight for independence.
The students say Scotland feels like a “second-class country” where Westminster overlords dictate everything from their finance to defense policies. “We want to sit next to England at the table,” says Stage, “rather than in the back taking the scraps they can throw.”
They point to the UK’s Trident nuclear weapons, carried by submarines based on Scotland’s west coast, as an example of the “double standards” and “condescending nature” of Westminster lawmakers towards their country.
“You couldn’t do it in the Thames (in London) because it’s too much of a threat to human life,” says Stage. “But what’s a trident bomb going to do amongst lochs and glens and Glasgow.”
She believes the same argument for staying in the EU, applies to staying in the UK. “We are better off in the UK with the relationships we have across these islands, as well as remaining in the EU and maintaining those relationships we have across the continent,” Chamberlain says, the sea breeze ruffling her long curly hair.
Scotland isn’t traditional territory for the Conservatives. But in the last few years the party has made significant gains while Labour, which had triumphed here since the 1960s, lost huge swaths of voters to a reinvigorated SNP.
Even the North East Fife’s Conservative candidate, Tony Miklinski, admits that “Boris does alienate some Scottish voters.”
The Prime Minister is “easily portrayed as the cartoon character, Eton-educated toff who’s out of touch with the working class, and with the people of Scotland.”
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I don't know much about UK politics but I thought it would at least want to stay one country....
Cheers.
Sriram
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Here is one prepared earlier
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=13551.0
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It isn't one country though sririam, Scotland, England and Wales are different countries with distinct cultures even if under the umbrella of the UK government.
My feeling is if the majority of Scots want independence from Westminster they should have it but so far there hasn't been such a majority; there may be in near future because of Brexit, the majority of Scots voted to remain.
I don't know about Wales, we have someone on here living Wales who would know better than me how the Welshfeel. I remember when I was yuong hearing a lot of talk about Plaid Cymru, nationalism etc. but not heard much of that recently.
Thanks for link NS.
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It isn't one country though sririam, Scotland, England and Wales are different countries with distinct cultures even if under the umbrella of the UK government.
My feeling is if the majority of Scots want independence from Westminster they should have it but so far there hasn't been such a majority; there may be in near future because of Brexit, the majority of Scots voted to remain.
I don't know about Wales, we have someone on here living Wales who would know better than me how the Welshfeel. I remember when I was yuong hearing a lot of talk about Plaid Cymru, nationalism etc. but not heard much of that recently.
Thanks for link NS.
And that is what I find very odd. Even in a big country like India with multiple languages, religions and major cultural differences, we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence. Even large countries like the US or China would discourage any idea of independence by any region.
Why in a tiny island like the UK?!
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And that is what I find very odd. Even in a big country like India with multiple languages, religions and major cultural differences, we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence. Even large countries like the US or China would discourage any idea of independence by any region.
Why in a tiny island like the UK?!
?
https://www.dw.com/en/kashmir-independence-activists-draw-inspiration-from-german-reunification/a-51091943
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And that is what I find very odd. Even in a big country like India with multiple languages, religions and major cultural differences, we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence. Even large countries like the US or China would discourage any idea of independence by any region.
Why in a tiny island like the UK?!
The UK is a group of islands, and part of one. It is by no means tiny: we are one of the larger countries in Europe. and Great Britain is the eighth largrst island in the world. The UK is 21st-largest country in the world by population.
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NS,
Kashmir was an independent kingdom till 1947. They chose to be with India after the partition with Pakistan.
But a special status was given (perhaps wrongly) to Kashmir under the Indian constitution.
India has now chosen to revoke the special status and make Kashmir an integral part of the country like the other states, because of the terrorist activity that Pakistan is creating there.
Not quite the same situation to what we are discussing here...
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NS,
Kashmir was an independent kingdom till 1947. They chose to be with India after the partition of Pakistan.
But a special status was given (perhaps wrongly) to Kashmir under the Indian constitution.
India has now chosen to revoke the special status and make Kashmir an integral part of the country like the other states, because of the terrorist activity that Pakistan is creating there.
Not quite the same situation to what we are discussing here...
Didn't say it was the same. But you stated 'we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence' - given those looking for Kashmir independence that is incorrect.
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Didn't say it was the same. But you stated 'we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence' - given those looking for Kashmir independence that is incorrect.
Kashmir has now become integrated more than ever before. This was democratically done with MP's from Kashmir being present in Parliament.
Fringe groups are not an issue. There are Pak and terrorist links to these group.....and hence much more complex.
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Kashmir has now become integrated more than ever before. This was democratically done with MP's from Kashmir being present in Parliament.
Fringe groups are not an issue. There are Pak and terrorist links to these group.....and hence much more complex.
And yet even if you dismiss them as fringe groups they still exist.
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If you are trying to justify Scottish independence because some fringe Pakistan linked groups in Kashmir want independence,....that is fine. ::)
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If you are trying to justify Scottish independence because some fringe Pakistan linked groups in Kashmir want independence,....that is fine. ::)
No, I'm doing nothing of the sort. I was just pointing out that one of your statements was wrong.
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Nobody is trying to justify on those grounds sririam. Scotland is a different country to England and many Scots believe they can govern themselves. It's very different to down here, (Scotland) is cosmopolitan and egalitarian; some English move to live there and others would like to. Scotland used not to be part of the UK, it was a completely separate country at one time. My view is that Scotland should be independent of us if that is what most of the Scots want. It wouldn't happen overnight nor would it mean border checks but it could work.
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Its been one country for more than 300 years...!! Still not integrated culturally? And its not really a huge country...!
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Its been one country for more than 300 years...!! Still not integrated culturally? And its not really a huge country...!
I agree, it would be even smaller if Scotland gains its independence.
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There is an analogy with Ireland. As the joke goes, the first 70 years of independence are the worst! Of course there are big differences also, the armed struggle in Ireland is very old. I expect independent Scotland would be successful, why not?
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I noticed in the old thread the play on "take back control", but not for Scotland.
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I'd have thought that Brexit, which is primarily an English disease, demonstrated clearly that the UK is no longer 'united'.
Some us Scots, though not all, feel no great allegiance to the UK, and especially so since it seems that our immediate political future depends on the extent to which ex-Labour voters in certain parts of England are stupid enough to vote Tory: after all, a 'no deal' situation in 12 months time is what they would be risking by doing so, and to me it seems perverse to countenance Johnson staying as PM and the likes of fuckers like Raab and Patel in high political office.
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And that is what surprises me. Being one country for 300 years and being an island nation, how could people in Scotland not feel allegiance to the UK?
Specific issues of political parties, Brexit etc. are a different matter. These are matters of individual preference and have nothing to do with wanting independence.
In a democratic set up one has to go with the majority view...
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I agree, it would be even smaller if Scotland gains its independence.
See my earlier post. The UK is quite large, bith in area and in population.
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And that is what surprises me. Being one country for 300 years and being an island nation, how could people in Scotland not feel allegiance to the UK?
There are important differences, Sriram: for example, the legal and educational systems in Scotland are unique to Scotland.
Specific issues of political parties, Brexit etc. are a different matter. These are matters of individual preference and have nothing to do with wanting independence.
Of course it has: if the majority of the electorate in England, given the relative population sizes, intend to pursue a political pathway that has minimal support here, and if the consequences of that are long term, then independence does become an option.
In a democratic set up one has to go with the majority view...
Or decide not to be part of that democratic set-up.
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It's also part of international law, that is, the right of nations to self-determination. Of course, the UK lost many colonies like this, e.g., Ireland. I don't think Scots see it in colonial terms.
Brexit - a symptom of post-imperial decline?
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There are important differences, Sriram: for example, the legal and educational systems in Scotland are unique to Scotland.
The Christian denominations are different, as well.
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Not to mention the games - who tosses cabers down here in London?
Nice, friendly hairy cattle.
Always prepared to walk 500 miles.
Ian Rankin and J K Rowling.
What's not to love? Viva la difference!
Sririam you may not understand why the Scots want to be independent, or some of them, but so what? If they do they do.
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If they gaiin independence, and stay in, or re-join, the EU, I'll have to consider moving up there. I'm currently reading 'The Diary od a Bookseller, by Shaun Bythell, owner of the country's largest second-hand bookshop in Wigtown, down in the bottom left-hand corner of Scotia, which is an official 'Town of Books', like Hay-on-Wye, so I could move there: loads of bookshops, a literary festival, and still in the EU if that happens - couldn't be better. (I won't really move - I can't afford to - but I bet some people do. I've got a bit of Scottish ancestry, though, so maybe I'd be entitled to Scottish citizenship.)
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If they gaiin independence, and stay in, or re-join, the EU, I'll have to consider moving up there. I'm currently reading 'The Diary od a Bookseller, by Shaun Bythell, owner of the country's largest bookshop in Wigtown, down in the bottom left-hand corner of Scotia, which is an official 'Town oof Books', like Hay-on-Wye, so I could move there: loads bookshops, a literary festival, and still in the EU if that happens - couldn't be better. (I won't really move - I can't afford to - but I bet some people do. I've got a bit of Scottish ancestry, though, so maybe I'd be entitled to Scottish citizenship.)
you'd love it in Wigtown Steve H
Those bookshops are fascinating , the one you mention was a home on about 3 or 4 floors with the original room layouts with fire places and sofas but walls full of book shelves . I spent about 3 hours in there , loved it .
Infact I stayed in the Wigtown / Garliston area for about 6 weeks
One of my fave places on my travels 👍
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you'd love it in Wigtown Steve H
Those bookshops are fascinating , the one you mention was a home on about 3 or 4 floors with the original room layouts with fire places and sofas but walls full of book shelves . I spent about 3 hours in there , loved it .
Infact I stayed in the Wigtown / Garliston area for about 6 weeks
One of my fave places on my travels 👍
Sounds great! "Largest second-hand bookshop", I should have said. I'll edit.
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And that is what I find very odd. Even in a big country like India with multiple languages, religions and major cultural differences, we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence. Even large countries like the US or China would discourage any idea of independence by any region.
Why in a tiny island like the UK?!
India gained independence, and within a year had split into two independent nations, with one of those further splitting formally in the early 1970s, and even into this year there are still territorial disputes. The US had a civil war where a number of states tried to secede from the Union, and China continues to argue with territories like Nepal, Tibet, Taiwan and Hong Kong about the extents of their independence whilst arguing with the rest of the world about how far into the South China Sea their national boundaries extend.
The Balkan states have a long and bloody history of amalgamations, divisions, fractures and wars about who is or isn't part of who else.
The UK, really, isn't that different from most of those save, perhaps, that it's been politically a little more stable than some of the others.
O.
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India and Pakistan were created on the same day when the British Raj ended in August 1947....not after a year.
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India and Pakistan were created on the same day when the British Raj ended in August 1947....not after a year.
And it's been pretty much a disaster, although I admit I don't have a better solution.
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And it's been pretty much a disaster, although I admit I don't have a better solution.
It would have been a bigger disaster if we have been together as one country.
I am of the view that if two groups of people have major differences....it is better to let them live in peace separately rather than force them to live together. If this idea is valid in marriage or among brothers or even parents and children, it should be valid in all social groups.
It is also valid for Scotland no doubt....I was merely wondering why there were major differences in such a small country that have lived together for 300 years....
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It would have been a bigger disaster if we have been together as one country.
I am of the view that if two groups of people have major differences....it is better to let them live in peace separately rather than force them to live together. If this idea is valid in marriage or among brothers or even parents and children, it should be valid in all social groups.
It is also valid for Scotland no doubt....I was merely wondering why there were major differences in such a small country that have lived together for 300 years....
There's a lot more Scotsmen living outside of Scotland than actually live there.
We have plenty of Scots here pleased to be here in England, as long as they keep those bloody pipes of theirs to themselves it's fine with me.
My maternal Grandfather was a full blooded Scot, my paternal Grandmother was a half Irish and my family name is an instantly obviously Flemish one so I can't be saying too much.
The only trouble I have is with some that come from in or around Glasgow that have such a broad accent I genuinely cannot understand them.
All of the ex pat Scots I've ever had any dealings with here have been mostly very pleasant and amicable to me they're just another bunch of your run of the mill Brits and as such I would rather they stay with the rest of us here in the UK but then again it's for them to decide, I've no problem with them staying.
We're not adversaries with the Scots other than in our sports, politicians? Well they're always fighting!
Regards, ippy.
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There's a lot more Scotsmen living outside of Scotland than actually live there.
What is your definition of 'Scotsmen'?
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There's a lot more Scotsmen living outside of Scotland than actually live there.
Do you have any data on that? Genuinely interested on sources.
We have plenty of Scots here pleased to be here in England, as long as they keep those bloody pipes of theirs to themselves it's fine with me.
It's not the pipes that alarm me, it's those god-awful excuses for chip-shop pies they serve!
My maternal Grandfather was a full blooded Scot, my paternal Grandmother was a half Irish and my family name is an instantly obviously Flemish one so I can't be saying too much.
The only trouble I have is with some that come from in or around Glasgow that have such a broad accent I genuinely cannot understand them.
My mother's family are all from the Dunfermline area, but I spent time at university in Glasgow - I can sometimes struggle with accents from the Islands, but generally I'm ok.
All of the ex pat Scots I've ever had any dealings with here have been mostly very pleasant and amicable to me they're just another bunch of your run of the mill Brits and as such I would rather they stay with the rest of us here in the UK but then again it's for them to decide, I've no problem with them staying.
In my experience Scottish ex-pats are either gung-ho 'Scotland is the greatest place on Earth' types (which makes you wonder why they left) or they hate it with a passion and can't imagine going back - I find very few who could take it or leave it.
We're not adversaries with the Scots other than in our sports, politicians? Well they're always fighting!
For many (most?) of them, though, they are adversaries with the English - much as the English traditionally see themselves as adversaries with the French, but the French see themselves as adversaries with the Germans (who eye up the Russians etc....)
O.
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Do you have any data on that? Genuinely interested on sources.
if Ippy means more people (not just men) of Scottish extraction live outside Scotland than in it then it's true but trivially so. Same is true of every European country as there will be a lot of double counting. If he means more people born in Scotland live outside it than in it, he's wrong. By a distance.
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The only trouble I have is with some that come from in or around Glasgow that have such a broad accent I genuinely cannot understand them.
This might help (in the absence of a Babel fish).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Lk7qivXbw
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My mother's family are all from the Dunfermline area, but I spent time at university in Glasgow - I can sometimes struggle with accents from the Islands, but generally I'm ok.
In my experience Scottish ex-pats are either gung-ho 'Scotland is the greatest place on Earth' types (which makes you wonder why they left) or they hate it with a passion and can't imagine going back - I find very few who could take it or leave it.
O.
Which uni? I am a local and tbh ippy is right, some accents in and around Glasgow can be impenetrable. Never had a problem with an island accent - North East mainland on other hand...
I know what you mean about ex pats. I think that's true generally beyond Scots.
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This might help (in the absence of a Babel fish).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Lk7qivXbw
And of course this
https://youtu.be/sAz_UvnUeuU
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It isn't one country though sririam, Scotland, England and Wales are different countries with distinct cultures even if under the umbrella of the UK government.
My feeling is if the majority of Scots want independence from Westminster they should have it but so far there hasn't been such a majority; there may be in near future because of Brexit, the majority of Scots voted to remain.
I don't know about Wales, we have someone on here living Wales who would know better than me how the Welshfeel. I remember when I was yuong hearing a lot of talk about Plaid Cymru, nationalism etc. but not heard much of that recently.
Thanks for link NS.
Wot Robbie said.
The UK is called a country - it isn't; it's a union of nations. In three cases that union was carried out through military conquest and political skulduggery.
Were it a voluntary union, and a complete merging of cultures, laws, etc, there would be fewer issues.
In Scotland's case, only the political structure changed.
Accordihng to the `1707 Act of union (Don't start me on how that was created), the Scots and English parliaments were to dissolve and create an entirley new structure in an 'equal and incorporating union'.
What happened was that the juggernaut of Westminster blithely ignored the act as soon as it was passed, and continued as the English Parliament with bits added on.
Scottish legal, educational and cultural, as well as religious life was not merged into the UK - thus creating rallying points of opposition which have, over the centuries, kept the flame of national identity alive.
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Its been one country for more than 300 years...!! Still not integrated culturally? And its not really a huge country...!
The legal educational, religious and cultural identity of Scotland were never integrated into the UK after 1707.
Scots language persists in most of the country, and Gaelic remains apotent cultural focus in the areas in which it was spoken.
Devolution in 1999 gave the reconvened Parliamenht control over health, law, tourism, education, nthe arts, etc, thus ensuring there will be no further integration.
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This might help (in the absence of a Babel fish).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Lk7qivXbw
Cheers Gordon, I've done a lot of work for him at his place in West Hampsted, (London),another ex-pat Scot, it was a while ago now 78-79 thereabouts, now, I could easily understand him in spite of his handicap.
Regards, ippy.
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Which uni? I am a local and tbh ippy is right, some accents in and around Glasgow can be impenetrable. Never had a problem with an island accent - North East mainland on other hand...
Glasgow in the early nineties - stayed in one of the brownstone townhouses in Hillhead and studied Aeronautical Engineering at the big grey concrete monstrosity bolted onto the back of the main university building down by Kelvingrove Park.
O.
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Glasgow in the early nineties - stayed in one of the brownstone townhouses in Hillhead and studied Aeronautical Engineering at the big grey concrete monstrosity bolted onto the back of the main university building down by Kelvingrove Park.
O.
I graduated in 1986 from it. It really is a monstrosity that building.
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OK....to aid your memories, a song written and sung by a friend of mine (aye, the same one who wrote 'The jeely piece song') https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It5MsXhsZas