Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Sriram on December 17, 2019, 07:12:03 AM
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Hi everyone,
We can see a trend towards nationalism in many parts of the world. UK, US, India and some countries in Europe.
Some people see this as a reversal of the globalization trend....and as retrograde.
I see the trend as a natural cyclical process through which societies evolve. There is nothing right or wrong about either globalization or nationalism in an absolute sense. They are natural processes that wax and wane. Nothing is permanent after all. The one is bound to follow the other.
Any views?
Cheers.
Sriram
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Nationalism (https://www.lexico.com/definition/nationalism) is about the promotion of one's own nation possibly at the expense or exclusion of others. The alternative isn't globalisation (https://www.lexico.com/definition/globalization), which is about businesses, but internationalism (https://www.lexico.com/definition/internationalism) which is about cooperation and understanding between nations.
Nationalism is a step in the wrong direction for all sorts of reasons, including encouraging xenophobia and racism, making wars (trade, cold, and literal) more likely, and hindering cooperation on global problems like climate change.
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Is it me or do we need to reintroduce the irony meter?
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Hi everyone,
We can see a trend towards nationalism in many parts of the world. UK, US, India and some countries in Europe.
Some people see this as a reversal of the globalization trend....and as retrograde.
I see the trend as a natural cyclical process through which societies evolve. There is nothing right or wrong about either globalization or nationalism in an absolute sense. They are natural processes that wax and wane. Nothing is permanent after all. The one is bound to follow the other.
Any views?
Cheers.
Sriram
There is a fundamental issue with withdrawal from multi-lateral agreements and global initiatives in the pursuit of narrow self-interest in the face of global problems like climate instability, international tax evasion, state-sponsored electoral interference and ongoing international tensions such as the Korean peninsula, Israel, and the India/Pakistan border.
O.
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Everything is part of a "natural process" - so what?
To solve global and international problems we need international solutions and actions.
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I think Nationalism is very bad indeed. >:(
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I think Nationalism is very bad indeed. >:(
But presumably patriotism is fine?
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But presumably patriotism is fine?
Patriotism is the last bastion of a scoundrel, so the saying goes. I am not in the least bit patriotic.
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Patriotism is the last bastion of a scoundrel, so the saying goes. I am not in the least bit patriotic.
So you feel no connection with any country? I think that's great, but I am forever a Glaswegian
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But there are different kinds of nationalism. For example, a colonized country wants to be free from its colonial status, and this will create a nationalist movement, e.g., Ireland. But when the oppressive country uses nationalism, it tends to be reactionary, e.g., China. I don't think Scotland is a colony, but Scottish nationalism strikes me as OK.
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But there are different kinds of nationalism. For example, a colonized country wants to be free from its colonial status, and this will create a nationalist movement, e.g., Ireland. But when the oppressive country uses nationalism, it tends to be reactionary, e.g., China. I don't think Scotland is a colony, but Scottish nationalism strikes me as OK.
And indeed one can think a country should exist as the best way of organisation for that area, given that nation states are a default.
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So you feel no connection with any country? I think that's great, but I am forever a Glaswegian
I live in the UK and prefer to live here than elsewhere, but it has its faults like anywhere else. I would never support the country in which I live right or wrong. If the UK team is competing against ones from other countries, I would want the best team to win from wherever in the world it comes.
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But there are different kinds of nationalism. For example, a colonized country wants to be free from its colonial status, and this will create a nationalist movement, e.g., Ireland.
Arguably, i.e. Scotland. Certainly there's a portion of the populace that thinks the Act of Union didn't create an equal union at all, and that Scotland is treated as an appendage to England.
O.
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Arguably, i.e. Scotland. Certainly there's a portion of the populace that thinks the Act of Union didn't create an equal union at all, and that Scotland is treated as an appendage to England.
O.
Scottish Tourism has a new slogan ;
Visit Scotland - England's biggest county 👍
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Scottish Tourism has a new slogan ;
Visit Scotland - England's biggest county 👍
;D ;D ;D
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Everything is part of a "natural process" - so what?
To solve global and international problems we need international solutions and actions.
i don't think an alien invasion would even do it !
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i don't think an alien invasion would even do it !
True, expect Putin, Xi Jinping, and Trump would be in a race to sign up with the aliens first...
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000c9s6
"Tom Holland and Iszi Lawrence explore historical connections behind today’s issues. This week - the roots of nationalism, its use by past generations and how it has shaped history."
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So you feel no connection with any country? I think that's great, but I am forever a Glaswegian
"Ten thousand devils take all nationality", said the composer Mendelssohn (maybe his grandfather Moses M. felt the same)
No doubt he was speaking from the perspective of the internationalist outlook of the educated Jew, as well as from his awareness of the historical rootlessness of the Jews since the diaspora. I like to think of myself as European, but as I grow older, I'm beginning to feel more rooted in my 'Englishness' (whatever that is - it certainly has nothing whatever to do with memories of 'Empire').
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"Ten thousand devils take all nationality", said the composer Mendelssohn (maybe his grandfather Moses M. felt the same)
No doubt he was speaking from the perspective of the internationalist outlook of the educated Jew, as well as from his awareness of the historical rootlessness of the Jews since the diaspora. I like to think of myself as European, but as I grow older, I'm beginning to feel more rooted in my 'Englishness' (whatever that is - it certainly has nothing whatever to do with memories of 'Empire').
I accept nation states as unavoidable. And I tend towards thinking that small states are better. Their natural insecurity makes them more likely to look to internationalism.
I find it odd that LR who is supportive of many traditional institutions in the UK like the monarchy is then able to avoid some idea of patriotism or nationalism.
And as stated I see myself as more Glaswegian than anything, and that allows me to identify with those in cities like Milan, Barcelona, Chicago where I feel a similar vibe. That is not to say my city, right or wrong as LR put it, rather the awareness of the many deep flaws are part of my sense of place, and my love for it. Love needs imperfection to thrive, perfection is for worship.
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I accept nation states as unavoidable. And I tend towards thinking that small states are better. Their natural insecurity makes them more likely to look to internationalism.
I find it odd that LR who is supportive of many traditional institutions in the UK like the monarchy is then able to avoid some idea of patriotism or nationalism.
And as stated I see myself as more Glaswegian than anything, and that allows me to identify with those in cities like Milan, Barcelona, Chicago where I feel a similar vibe. That is not to say my city, right or wrong as LR put it, rather the awareness of the many deep flaws are part of my sense of place, and my love for it. Love needs imperfection to thrive, perfection is for worship.
I am a mishmash of different cultures, I was born in Guernsey to a half Channel Islander, half Irish father, and an English mother. My English husband and I moved to North Wales in 1990, having lived in the North, South West, and East of England previously. I obtained Irish citizenship in 2008, just because I could, so I now have dual British and Irish citizenship.
As for my respect for the present Monarch, I probably have a little more knowledge of the Royals than most due to my family connections, which is why I rate her.
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I am a mishmash of different cultures, I was born in Guernsey to a half Channel Islander, half Irish father, and an English mother. My English husband and I moved to North Wales in 1990, having lived in the North, South West, and East of England previously. I obtained Irish citizenship in 2008, just because I could, so I now have dual British and Irish citizenship.
As for my respect for the present Monarch, I probably have a little more knowledge of the Royals than most due to my family connections, which is why I rate her.
The point wasn't about Liz but about the institution.
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The point wasn't about Liz but about the institution.
I prefer the idea of a Monarchy to having a republic with a president.
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Patriotism is the last bastion of a scoundrel, so the saying goes. I am not in the least bit patriotic.
Can we leave Johnson and his boot licking sycophant Boswell out of it?
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I prefer the idea of a Monarchy to having a republic with a president.
False dichotomy, especially given your usual idea that the only type of presidency is the US.
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False dichotomy, especially given your usual idea that the only type of presidency is the US.
Untrue! There are many presidents in this world, besides the idiot in the US for whom I have no respect, like Comrade VP! At least the British Monarchy is supposed to be neutral in public where politics are concerned.
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I prefer the idea of a Monarchy to having a republic with a president.
A president isn't compulsory you know: even then the arrangements as to what the scope of the presidential role might be aren't fixed, and there are possibilities other than either the current Trumpesque madness or the anachronistic Windsor parasites.
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LR; You quoted Johnson on patriotism. Leaving aside the fact that you took the quote out of context, choosing Johnson was singularly inappropriate. JBoswell wrote a diary of their 'Highland tour' which was more of a highland sneer on Johnson's part, and the man was cordially loathed by Boswell's father. Incidentally, Boswell is arather mixed up kid. A staunch advocate for Corsican independence, he nevertheless despised the flickering flame of Scots independence. He's buried in the private burial vault less tha n thirty yards from the place in which I worship each Sunday morning.
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Untrue! There are many presidents in this world, besides the idiot in the US for whom I have no respect, like Comrade VP! At least the British Monarchy is supposed to be neutral in public where politics are concerned.
You have just concentrated on the US presidential SYSTEM again showing that I was correct. It's not about the individual it's about the system. And you ignored that you continue with the false dichotomy. What is the need for s president? What does the Queen do except have a sex criminal in the family?
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Untrue! There are many presidents in this world, besides the idiot in the US for whom I have no respect, like Comrade VP! At least the British Monarchy is supposed to be neutral in public where politics are concerned.
I refer you to the Spider letters care of Charlie-boy and the rather backward contention that his writing to the Prime Minister didn't prejudice his supposed impartiality, but the free press printing them would...?
O.
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I refer you to the Spider letters care of Charlie-boy and the rather backward contention that his writing to the Prime Minister didn't prejudice his supposed impartiality, but the free press printing them would...?
I feel rather sorry for Charlie-boy. He is an intelligent and capable man who has been under house-arrest since 1958 with only one constitutional duty to perform. And that hasn't happened yet - his mother is still alive. He has been the longest serving Prince of Wales, he may be one of the shortest serving monarchs.
I am not a royalist. I would welcome the United Republic of Great Britain - but with a non-executive presidency which could be a reward for someone who has genuinely brought great honour to the country.
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I feel rather sorry for Charlie-boy. He is an intelligent and capable man who has been under house-arrest since 1958 with only one constitutional duty to perform. And that hasn't happened yet - his mother is still alive. He has been the longest serving Prince of Wales, he may be one of the shortest serving monarchs.
I feel sorry for all of them, to an extent, but that plank wants the NHS to waste money on homeopathy, wants to have a special line to the Prime Minister for his chosen causes but not to be accused of compromising his political neutrality and wants to preserve brutalist architecture... he gets more sympathy than Andrew, these days, but not by much. As to his wait to become Monarch... so he's been paid all this time and hasn't actually had to step up to the mark...
I am not a royalist. I would welcome the United Republic of Great Britain - but with a non-executive presidency which could be a reward for someone who has genuinely brought great honour to the country.
I second the motion. Now, change.org petition, or does anyone have Prime Minister Cummings' number?
O.
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Outrider ,
I thought he supported the homeopathy thing as an instrument for medics to use to get rid of truoblesome 'patients' who were taking up preciousness time and NHS money ?
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Outrider ,
I thought he supported the homeopathy thing as an instrument for medics to use to get rid of truoblesome 'patients' who were taking up preciousness time and NHS money ?
Not as far as I'm aware, I was given to understand that he genuinely accepted it, even went to the World Health Assembly and promoted it, amongst other 'alternative therapies' - either way, the way to deal with troublesome patients is to spend a little time to find out why they're so desperate for treatment, not to fob them off with pseudoscience.
O.
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Not as far as I'm aware, I was given to understand that he genuinely accepted it, even went to the World Health Assembly and promoted it, amongst other 'alternative therapies' - either way, the way to deal with troublesome patients is to spend a little time to find out why they're so desperate for treatment, not to fob them off with pseudoscience.
O.
Well...Prince Charles was in my city recently for a week or so with Camilla and friends to undergo homeopathic and naturopathy treatment. Sarah Ferguson and some European royals also visit this place for treatment quite often.
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I feel rather sorry for Charlie-boy. He is an intelligent and capable man who has been under house-arrest since 1958 with only one constitutional duty to perform. And that hasn't happened yet - his mother is still alive. He has been the longest serving Prince of Wales, he may be one of the shortest serving monarchs.
Not sure I feel sorry for him as he has been able to live a life of luxury without having to earn a penny. Not sure also that he will be a particularly short serving monarch. If he lives as long as his father (who is nearly 100) then he could be monarch for 20 years or more, which would of course mean William in exactly the same position as Charles - waiting decades longer until he attains the top job.
And with the improvements in healthcare this will be our lot - the direct line of heirs to the throne (Charles, William, George, etc) brought up to do a particular job, attaining adulthood and with no proper job for decades until that job finally becomes available in their 60s or 70s. That isn't good as their star always wanes during that long wait.
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Not as far as I'm aware, I was given to understand that he genuinely accepted it, even went to the World Health Assembly and promoted it, amongst other 'alternative therapies' - either way, the way to deal with troublesome patients is to spend a little time to find out why they're so desperate for treatment, not to fob them off with pseudoscience.
O.
Outrider
Your attitudes are far to liberal for my liking . Pseudoscience is far too good for them 😱👽
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Not as far as I'm aware, I was given to understand that he genuinely accepted it, even went to the World Health Assembly and promoted it, amongst other 'alternative therapies' - either way, the way to deal with troublesome patients is to spend a little time to find out why they're so desperate for treatment, not to fob them off with pseudoscience.
O.
My brother reckoned the best way of keeping time wasting patients away from the surgery was by employing dragon Ladies working at the reception desk and on the phones.
Regards, ippy.
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My brother reckoned the best way of keeping time wasting patients away from the surgery was by employing dragon Ladies working at the reception desk and on the phones.
Regards, ippy.
Health care and social care are two points on a spectrum - if a patient is turning up to a surgery with a need that need should be addressed. Sending them away because it can't be treated with a pill or a bandage doesn't make them better, doesn't prevent them coming back again.
O.
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Not as far as I'm aware, I was given to understand that he genuinely accepted it, even went to the World Health Assembly and promoted it, amongst other 'alternative therapies' - either way, the way to deal with troublesome patients is to spend a little time to find out why they're so desperate for treatment, not to fob them off with pseudoscience.
O.
Oh, he STILL accepts it.
As evidence, I cite the homeopathy garden in the Dumfries Hiouse estate - a few miles from my gaffe.
Ye, old Chairlie has done some remarkable things with the ex-ancestral pile; though he's had some daft ideas as well - creating a Scottish version of 'Poundbury' called 'Knockroon' has been less than successful.
Dumfries House seems to be an attempt by him to plump up his popularity as 'Duke of Rothesay' up here - and to some extent, amongst the literati, he has successded - though most of the locals treat him as a joke to be pitied
Chairlie and Cmalla have a flat in Dumfries House, which they use as an alternative to Sandringham or Balmoral.
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Anchs
When you say 'flat' do you mean a bed sit type with a sink and gas stove at one end? 👍😂😂😂
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Anchs
When you say 'flat' do you mean a bed sit type with a sink and gas stove at one end? 👍😂😂😂
It's definately a bedsit.
Dunno about the kitchen - ask his butler.
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Health care and social care are two points on a spectrum - if a patient is turning up to a surgery with a need that need should be addressed. Sending them away because it can't be treated with a pill or a bandage doesn't make them better, doesn't prevent them coming back again.
O.
There's always a few hypochondriacs around Outrider, how many unnecessary caveats do we need to write into our posts potentially involving thousands more words in order to have some normality of understanding within our written form of conversation on this forum, I'm sure you understood my post, I wasn't setting out to write a legal document I didn't think it was a forum requirement.
ippy.
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There's always a few hypochondriacs around Outrider, how many unnecessary caveats do we need to write into our posts potentially involving thousands more words in order to have some normality of understanding within our written form of conversation on this forum, I'm sure you understood my post, I wasn't setting out to write a legal document I didn't think it was a forum requirement.
ippy.
well said ippy 👍
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Arguably, i.e. Scotland. Certainly there's a portion of the populace that thinks the Act of Union didn't create an equal union at all, and that Scotland is treated as an appendage to England.
O.
Considering that, except in geographic area, Scotland is smaller than London, it's not really surprising.
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Considering that, except in geographic area, Scotland is smaller than London, it's not really surprising.
and to be fair it's not just Scotland that might feel like an appendage of London.
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I've had many views during my time, but I've come to the conclusion that if by nationalism you mean some sort of allegiance or elevation of the state, then I'm definitely not a nationalist. I do hold allegiance to the land and the people who have lived and died on it though. As for globalisation, if it means a process towards one world state and homogeny, then I reject that too.