Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on May 29, 2020, 05:51:07 PM
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This, combined with Trump's tweet, could have a crucial impact on the election, and beyond.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52844192
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This, combined with Trump's tweet, could have a crucial impact on the election, and beyond.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52844192
If it means people are so disgusted they don't vote for Trump that poor man's death wouldn't be in vain.
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If it means people are so disgusted they don't vote for Trump that poor man's death wouldn't be in vain.
All deaths are in vain for the dead person, and I think that there is a major worry that this adds to the possibility a breakdown in the democratic process.
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All deaths are in vain for the dead person, and I think that there is a major worry that this adds to the possibility a breakdown in the democratic process.
The democratic process broke down when Trump became president. >:(
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The democratic process broke down when Trump became president. >:(
It really didn't.
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Trump's removed tweet is a quote from George Wallace!!!!!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace
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Protest against the murder of George Floyd in the Bundesliga
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1267143015413493761.html?fbclid=IwAR1K7aK1WqU2LKelEn4mny7M3owGZa-ziHbhNpUd8IGaHleG4UI2aUVPJAA
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Difficult to see how this division does not become one of the major issues of the election. There seems a definite pull to the extremes with huge importance in having people on the other side that can be portrayed as extremists and at the same time representative.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52868295
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It really didn't.
It really did.
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Difficult to see how this division does not become one of the major issues of the election. There seems a definite pull to the extremes with huge importance in having people on the other side that can be portrayed as extremists and at the same time representative.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52868295
There are extremists on both sides. However, the underlying reasons for the protests are, we all agree, valid and won't nor should be forgotten in all this mess.
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There are extremists on both sides. However, the underlying reasons for the protests are, we all agree, valid and won't nor should be forgotten in all this mess.
Agree, but I fear that there are those who will use the argument to simply emphasise the split rather than the reasons.
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Agree, but I fear that there are those who will use the argument to simply emphasise the split rather than the reasons.
Unfortunately, you're probably right.
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And this is why this split will grow
https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/397646-video-reds-players-show-support-for-black-lives-matter
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Since the election is not until November, I think. there would seem to be plenty of time for a manipulator like Trump with the help of his cronies to divert attention to something that appeals to the mass of morons and the monied that support Trump that will protect his Presidency.
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Since the election is not until November, I think. there would seem to be plenty of time for a manipulator like Trump with the help of his cronies to divert attention to something that appeals to the mass of morons and the monied that support Trump that will protect his Presidency.
But that distraction is this. He's already tying all of this together.
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But that distraction is this. He's already tying all of this together.
Agree. Trump loves this. He's always done well when he's center stage and wreaking havoc. One article I read earlier said it perfectly: Trump loves throwing gasoline on fires he has set himself. In part, he's using his incendiary rhetoric because it contrasts perfectly with his defense of the armed citizens who protested outside Michigan's governor's capital. He's dying right now to declare war on people of color in America. Part of the reason is he's desperate to be in the limelight with the elections getting closer everyday.
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Agree. Trump loves this. He's always done well when he's center stage and wreaking havoc. One article I read earlier said it perfectly: Trump loves throwing gasoline on fires he has set himself. In part, he's using his incendiary rhetoric because it contrasts perfectly with his defense of the armed citizens who protested outside Michigan's governor's capital. He's dying right now to declare war on people of color in America. Part of the reason is he's desperate to be in the limelight with the elections getting closer everyday.
I fear it's also a very straight attempt at making any loss in the assignment of who the others are that you can battle against.
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Agree. Trump loves this. He's always done well when he's center stage and wreaking havoc. One article I read earlier said it perfectly: Trump loves throwing gasoline on fires he has set himself. In part, he's using his incendiary rhetoric because it contrasts perfectly with his defense of the armed citizens who protested outside Michigan's governor's capital. He's dying right now to declare war on people of color in America. Part of the reason is he's desperate to be in the limelight with the elections getting closer everyday.
He'll definitely use this in the election. "Dems support violent rioters, whereas I support law and order." I don't know if this will work. As the saying goes, he's brought back the pandemic of 1919, the depression of the 30s, and the riots of 1968.
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He'll definitely use this in the election. "Dems support violent rioters, whereas I support law and order." I don't know if this will work. As the saying goes, he's brought back the pandemic of 1919, the depression of the 30s, and the riots of 1968.
All the while talking up the idea of the election being fixed.
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I fear it's also a very straight attempt at making any loss in the assignment of who the others are that you can battle against.
The Conservative media is doing the more effective job on that one. They only post pictures of the violence. Trump is pandering to this audience mainly. Not sure how they are misconstruing the headline story today where Trump had people in a church yard tear gassed so he could have a photo op of him holding up a Bible in front of the church sign. Some who were gassed were clergy who had been handing out bottles of water and snacks to the protestors. (There's a picture going around FB that shows Trump holding the Bible in front of the St John's Episcopal sign, only the sign has the quote from Trump's Access Hollywood confession.)
Thankfully, the rest of the media are reporting this kind of thing, and the heartbreaking scene of the crime that has turned into a memorial for George Floyd, which hopefully is persuading more than Trump and his FOX sycophants.
He'll definitely use this in the election. "Dems support violent rioters, whereas I support law and order." I don't know if this will work. As the saying goes, he's brought back the pandemic of 1919, the depression of the 30s, and the riots of 1968.
It's up in the air, but I'm hopeful for the first time in a long time that Trump is losing people who once supported him. There's a growing number of Republicans who are speaking out against Trump. That's going to hurt him come November.
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Yes, there are factors against Trump, he lost to Clinton by 3 million votes, he is 10 points behind Biden, there is a recession and a pandemic. However, Trump will fight dirty.
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Not only will fight dirty but will set up any loss as fixed.
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He's definitely trying. WaPo put an article out today saying election officials disagree with Trump and Barr about mail fraud. But, as always, Trump and Barr are speaking to a different crowd. This has worked well for him in the past.
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He's definitely trying. WaPo put an article out today saying election officials disagree with Trump and Barr about mail fraud. But, as always, Trump and Barr are speaking to a different crowd. This has worked well for him in the past.
My fear is this is a genuine attempt to subvert the system.
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Martin Luther King
https://youtu.be/I47Y6VHc3Ms
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Martin Luther King
https://youtu.be/I47Y6VHc3Ms
57 years later and nothing has changed and Trump is trying to keep it that way if not actually pushing it even further back to the '30s and '40s
It is a fucking disgrace!
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I have not been following this topic but is it known what the reason was for George Floyd being arrested in the first place?
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I have not been following this topic but is it known what the reason was for George Floyd being arrested in the first place?
Allegedly using a counterfeit $20 note
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Allegedly using a counterfeit $20 note
Thank you. So it means he was killed by one assisted by three others for carrying a piece of paper.
What a really dreadful, horrific situation now.
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Be interested to see and watch what happens here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/american-football/52918816 ;D
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You'd think, wouldn't you, that if you were a police officer in the US at the moment that you'd be aware you are under scrutiny and you'd behave yourself, at least for the moment.
But no.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52932611
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Be interested to see and watch what happens here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/american-football/52918816 ;D
This might be relevant
https://www.bbc.com/sport/american-football/52934622
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As a quick question, how many people know of the case Breonna Taylor?
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I didn't. Just read up about it.
Shocking. But not shocking.
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As a quick question, how many people know of the case Breonna Taylor?
It's possible I have heard of the case before you brought it up, but, to be honest, cases like this in the USA are so common that I lose track of the individual stories.
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It's possible I have heard of the case before you brought it up, but, to be honest, cases like this in the USA are so common that I lose track of the individual stories.
Maybe read up.
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Just what happens
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52945190 ;D
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This might be relevant
https://www.bbc.com/sport/american-football/52934622
Will be interesting what Trump's reaction is.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52945934
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Will be interesting what Trump's reaction is.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52945934
Accuse them of treason and have them shot!
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Accuse them of treason and have them shot!
There is one seriously huge problem with your post above - it is highly likely that he is actually contemplating just that!
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There is one seriously huge problem with your post above - it is highly likely that he is actually contemplating just that!
I think that could well be true. :o
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While I can understand the strength of feeling, this seems like prime grade idiocy just now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52949014
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While I can understand the strength of feeling, this seems like prime grade idiocy just now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52949014
Yes, especially when you take into account how Covid 19 disproportionately affects BAME.
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Whilst I can understand why they wish to protest, they could be putting their lives and the lives of others in danger.
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Yes, especially when you take into account how Covid 19 disproportionately affects BAME.
Showing my ignorance - yet again - BAME?
)O(
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Showing my ignorance - yet again - BAME?
)O(
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bame
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Oh look protesting a racist murder is 'attacking and dethroning god'
https://heavy.com/news/2020/06/attack-and-dethrone-god/
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https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bame
My thanks!
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Oh look protesting a racist murder is 'attacking and dethroning god'
https://heavy.com/news/2020/06/attack-and-dethrone-god/
I hope that British Christians are more intelligent than American ones, but . . .
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I hope that British Christians are more intelligent than American ones, but . . .
Tons of idiots on the George Floyd marches today who are not Christian but idiots. The idea that the religious, which includes you , are stupid is lazy and pernicious.
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Tons of idiots on the George Floyd marches today who are not Christian but idiots. The idea that the religious, which includes you, are stupid is lazy and pernicious.
I don't dispute that, but in the States, it does seem that a fair few of the conservative preachers seem to be in favour of Trump's stance. And I would hope that the British will prove their greater common sense.
In America my religion still hides itself - Salem wasn't that long ago and, according to some American Pagans of my acquaintance, most do not make their faith public, they would never wear the Pentacle visible, that is for sure.
)O(
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I don't dispute that, but in the States, it does seem that a fair few of the conservative preachers seem to be in favour of Trump's stance. And I would hope that the British will prove their greater common sense.
In America my religion still hides itself - Salem wasn't that long ago and, according to some American Pagans of my acquaintance, most do not make their faith public, they would never wear the Pentacle visible, that is for sure.
)O(
it's the British idiots on the George Floyd marches I was thinking about - see earlier posts.
And why is paganism any less stupid than Christianity? If you think religions are bad, at least be consistent.
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it's the British idiots on the George Floyd marches I was thinking about - see earlier posts.
And why is paganism any less stupid than Christianity? If you think religions are bad, at least be consistent.
I thought that you understood, clearly, I was mistaken.
My religion does NOT demand that I do anything other than obey two rules - not ten, not dozens, two!
One - An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!
Two - What 'ere ye send out for good or ill will be returned to you threefold.
This last means, from my history on this Forum, I am in for some deep shit! When? That only the Goddess knows, but as sure as eggs are eggs, it will be when I least expect and when the effect will be most productive in terms of learning a lesson be it in this life or the next.
The main difference between Christianity and Paganism apart from the above is that Witches/Pagands do not proselytise. It is a strict rule. Someone comes to a Coven and asks to join, fine - the other way round is not allowed. Doing so can get you thrown out of a coven; that happens no other coven will take you.
You belong to another religion, fine, no problem as long as you don't try to change my religious affiliation or to convince me that I am wrong.
I hold that my religion and its beliefs are a matter of faith, not fact.
My apologies for misunderstanding your posts, I shall not make the same mistake again. Contrary to the apparent beliefs of some, I am NOT a glutton for punishment,
)O(
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I thought that you understood, clearly, I was mistaken.
My religion does NOT demand that I do anything other than obey two rules - not ten, not dozens, two!
One - An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!
Two - What 'ere ye send out for good or ill will be returned to you threefold.
This last means, from my history on this Forum, I am in for some deep shit! When? That only the Goddess knows, but as sure as eggs are eggs, it will be when I least expect and when the effect will be most productive in terms of learning a lesson be it in this life or the next.
The main difference between Christianity and Paganism apart from the above is that do not proselytise. It is a strict rule. Someone comes to a Coven and asks to join, fine - the other way round is not allowed. Doing so can get you thrown out of a coven; that happens no other coven will take you.
You belong to another religion, fine, no problem as long as you don't try to change my religious affiliation or to convince me that I am wrong.
I hold that my religion and its beliefs are a matter of faith, not fact.
My apologies for misunderstanding your posts, I shall not make the same mistake again. Contrary to the apparent beliefs of some, I am NOT a glutton for punishment,
)O(
I do not belong to any religion
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I do not belong to any religion
On this Forum? A far wiser choice than the one I made!
B B
)O(
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52949014
There was no excuse for the violence which look place at the protest yesterday in London where 10 police officers were injured.
It is very sad that in this day and age there is still prejudice about the skin one is in. We are all humans when all said and done, it should be our personality which counts not the colour of our skin.
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It is interesting this whole "there is no excuse for violence" theme that LR and countless others often refer to. This is an interesting article about the issue and how it really is not that straightforward.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/05/hong-kong-protests-chile-bolivia-egypt-force-police-violence-is-sometimes-the-answer/
We are very often happy to see "the authorities" use violence to control but are conditioned to jump to the "no excuse for violence" trope when it is groups other than "authority".
I'm not saying I approve or not of violent protests, I just think it is a whole lot more complicated than a simple statement.
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It is interesting this whole "there is no excuse for violence" theme that LR and countless others often refer to. This is an interesting article about the issue and how it really is not that straightforward.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/05/hong-kong-protests-chile-bolivia-egypt-force-police-violence-is-sometimes-the-answer/
We are very often happy to see "the authorities" use violence to control but are conditioned to jump to the "no excuse for violence" trope when it is groups other than "authority".
I'm not saying I approve or not of violent protests, I just think it is a whole lot more complicated than a simple statement.
I am not happy to see the police using violence as is happening in places like America etc. At least in the UK, if force is needed there is an enquiry to see if it was used appropriately.
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I am not happy to see the police using violence as is happening in places like America etc. At least in the UK, if force is needed there is an enquiry to see if it was used appropriately.
Hmmm
https://novaramedia.com/2020/06/01/the-uk-is-not-innocent-police-brutality-has-a-long-and-violent-history-here/
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The UK police have not always behaved well, especially in the past, but I think there is more scrutiny of their behaviour than in some other countries.
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The UK police have not always behaved well, especially in the past, but I think there is more scrutiny of their behaviour than in some other countries.
To quote from the article
'In fact, according to the charity Inquest, 1,741 people have died in police custody or otherwise following contact with the police in England and Wales since 1990. Not a single police officer has been convicted in connection to these deaths.'
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Also worth reading this
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18501332.aamer-anwar/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR06sx0W87XAW70cCCrsgz7WH4h2WHsagtGM-16G6Vsz7Ji4WVXgNO8aoNI
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Also worth reading this
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18501332.aamer-anwar/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR06sx0W87XAW70cCCrsgz7WH4h2WHsagtGM-16G6Vsz7Ji4WVXgNO8aoNI
SHOCKING! :o >:(
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If it means people are so disgusted they don't vote for Trump that poor man's death wouldn't be in vain.
How disgusting...
The whole thing I believe to be a set up by the opposition.
Do you think the life of any person is less valuable in comparison to Trump getting votes or not?
Whether black or white the taking of another persons life does not give any other human being the right to kill and loot innocent people.
Burn buildings or chant slogans at innocent white and black police officers.
A peaceful and dignified protest would have had more effect that a an angry reply full of venom and hurting others.
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How disgusting...
The whole thing I believe to be a set up by the opposition.
Do you think the life of any person is less valuable in comparison to Trump getting votes or not?
Whether black or white the taking of another persons life does not give any other human being the right to kill and loot innocent people.
Burn buildings or chant slogans at innocent white and black police officers.
A peaceful and dignified protest would have had more effect that a an angry reply full of venom and hurting others.
The sooner Trump is removed from the White House, the better that country will be.
What I don't get is why white racists think their skin colour is superior to that of others, yet many are happy to sunbathe which darkens the skin?
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305
This statue of a slave trader should have been removed a long time ago. >:( It is shocking it has been there for so long.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305
This statue of a slave trader should have been removed a long time ago. >:( It is shocking it has been there for so long.
Wouldn't you normally describe those who vandalize public art as scum?
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Wouldn't you normally describe those who vandalize public art as scum?
The slave trader was scum. >:(
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The slave trader was scum. >:(
What if they pulled down the statue of Churchill - after all he was a racist.?
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What if they pulled down the statue of Churchill - after all he was a racist.?
I don't think a slave trader and Churchill are in the same league. However,he wasn't a very pleasant person by all accounts, so maybe it is time his statue was removed by the State and sent to Blenheim Palace.
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I used to live near that blasted statue, and Bristol is full of places he endowed. His slaves were branded with the company initials. Good riddance.
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I don't think a slave trader and Churchill are in the same league. However,he wasn't a very pleasant person by all accounts, so maybe it is time his statue was removed by the State and sent to Blenheim Palace.
So you only want statues of 'pleasant' people?
By whose judgement?
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I don't think a slave trader and Churchill are in the same league. However,he wasn't a very pleasant person by all accounts, so maybe it is time his statue was removed by the State and sent to Blenheim Palace.
How about Cromwell?
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Minneapolis to disband the police - i'm not sure that in real terms this will happen, and even less sure what means can be put in place to avoid problems in the future but it underlines the deep issues here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52960227
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https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bame
I always thought the "ME" stood for middle eastern. "Minority and Ethnic" doesn't really work in this context since it's specifically the black and Asian people who are more at risk from coronavirus.
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I support the BLM protests in UK but I didn't attend any. As many people have said online, there are causes that people believe are worth risking lives for so I can see why some people might think these protests are necessary even during a pandemic. I also read that many of the protesters were wearing masks.
It is a shame about the minority that start violence on both sides - police and protesters - but I don't think the violence detracts from the Black Lives Matter too message. I read that a WPC fell from her horse after crashing into a traffic light while charging protesters. There seems to be some suggestions that someone threw something at the horse to spook it but have not seen any evidence to confirm that this happened.
Can't say I care that much about statues being torn down - I used to think it was silly to remove the history - but have changed my mind on that after seeing the level of hurt felt by people who are constantly being reminded about these historic injustices by seeing these statues. Not sure where to draw the line though. In Churchill's case - maybe a sign next to the statue to point out his racist views while also acknowledging his powerful and successful leadership of Britain to help defeat the Nazis, which benefited everyone.
Not really sure how to reverse so many years of racial inequality in some communities that has led to these situations so am expecting this to be an ongoing battle for black lives to matter too. I'm privileged as my family and community prioritised education so my parents were professionals and we did not go on holiday for most of my childhood to afford good schools. At the same time lack of parental supervision while my parents were working (my dad was abroad a lot) led to me engaging in some risk-taking behaviour. So not sure what the answer is.
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I support the BLM protests in UK but I didn't attend any. As many people have said online, there are causes that people believe are worth risking lives for so I can see why some people might think these protests are necessary even during a pandemic. I also read that many of the protesters were wearing masks.
It is a shame about the minority that start violence on both sides - police and protesters - but I don't think the violence detracts from the Black Lives Matter too message. I read that a WPC fell from her horse after crashing into a traffic light while charging protesters. There seems to be some suggestions that someone threw something at the horse to spook it but have not seen any evidence to confirm that this happened.
Can't say I care that much about statues being torn down - I used to think it was silly to remove the history - but have changed my mind on that after seeing the level of hurt felt by people who are constantly being reminded about these historic injustices by seeing these statues. Not sure where to draw the line though. In Churchill's case - maybe a sign next to the statue to point out his racist views while also acknowledging his powerful and successful leadership of Britain to help defeat the Nazis, which benefited everyone.
Not really sure how to reverse so many years of racial inequality in some communities that has led to these situations so am expecting this to be an ongoing battle for black lives to matter too. I'm privileged as my family and community prioritised education so my parents were professionals and we did not go on holiday for most of my childhood to afford good schools. At the same time lack of parental supervision while my parents were working (my dad was abroad a lot) led to me engaging in some risk-taking behaviour. So not sure what the answer is.
There isn't any actual answer of course - as always there will be a mixture of answers, some taking us forward and we can only hope they will be in the majority.
One of the callers last night (can't remember if it was to Stephen Nolan or Jim davis) was an articulate positive young black man, on his way home from work. His main point too was about education. Instead of holding a grudge against society, he saw, valued and used the education he had, moved to college in a different part of London, came into contact with a wider circle of people and knew that that was the way ahead for him. He was asked what his job was and he said that he had his own Company, and oh, that he worked on the Underground. He lives in Aylesbury so although that is some way out of London, the lines reach out that far if I remember correctly. He now has a good home and three small children, so I presume a wife too! He said his father was 'a preacher man' so that would have meant he had a family who already valued education.
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Education is definitely key, however to properly take advantage of opportunities available you must already feel a level of equality and that progress is possible. If you feel that the dice are loaded against you - why play?
We need a fairer and more equal society all round - meaning major changes to the way the economy works, how power is shared, the relationship between society and the individual.
Educational content also needs to be updated - especially wrt. history and geography. Nationalism and other tribal instincts need to be ditched.
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Education is definitely key, however to properly take advantage of opportunities available you must already feel a level of equality and that progress is possible. If you feel that the dice are loaded against you - why play?
We need a fairer and more equal society all round - meaning major changes to the way the economy works, how power is shared, the relationship between society and the individual.
Educational content also needs to be updated - especially wrt. history and geography. Nationalism and other tribal instincts need to be ditched.
Sorry, the idea of ditching nationalism and other tribalism is both Utopian and simplistic. It's similar to the idea of just let"s get rid of religion and this will solve things. Lots of tribalism is what leads us to support people, to save people, and to work together. We need to try and understand how best we work together but that is about understand our limitations not ignoring them
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Just an observation -
Willian Wilberforce and his Christian colleagues did not succeed in their aim to abolish slavery, in the face of hostile opposition, by pulling down statues or hurling missiles at the police.
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Just an observation -
Willian Wilberforce and his Christian colleagues did not succeed in their aim to abolish slavery, in the face of hostile opposition, by pulling down statues or hurling missiles at the police.
they were not being killed by police.
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Just an observation -
Willian Wilberforce and his Christian colleagues did not succeed in their aim to abolish slavery, in the face of hostile opposition, by pulling down statues or hurling missiles at the police.
I think that having emphasised his Christian colleagues, for a balanced report you might want to mention that the opposition also contained Christians.
Unless of course you want to rewrite history?
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Sorry, the idea of ditching nationalism and other tribalism is both Utopian and simplistic. It's similar to the idea of just let"s get rid of religion and this will solve things. Lots of tribalism is what leads us to support people, to save people, and to work together. We need to try and understand how best we work together but that is about understand our limitations not ignoring them
Er... yeah, but we could at least try and get history etc curricula to cover subjects better and more fairly.
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This link (http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?2,1239496,1239496#msg-1239496) is to a short - about 8 posts - in a topicc on the GH forum. I learnt quite a few things about George Floyd and asphyxiation so thought it might be of interest here.
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This, essentially a political piece by a group of doctors, is good on how autopsies are (or can be) misused:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/
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This, essentially a political piece by a group of doctors, is good on how autopsies are (or can be) misused:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/
Interesting. I have put that link onto the GH topic.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52967675
The racing driving, Lewis Hamilton, has asked that all racist symbols around the world should be removed.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52967675
The racing driving, Lewis Hamilton, has asked that all racist symbols around the world should be removed.
We just need to define racist symbols
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We just need to define racist symbols
Difficult job. Queen Victoria's statues.
Anybody care to offer a opinion? I don't!
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Difficult job. Queen Victoria's statues.
Anybody care to offer a opinion? I don't!
Yep, it's not a simple thing - I've posted, see link below, about the issue of Glasgow street names. I live in what's known as the Merchant City, which is called after those who profited from the goods such as tobacco, cotton, and sugar that were produced with slave labour. A short walk from me is a statue to David Livingstone, which is quite an uncomfortable sight with its patronising portrayal of African people - should it go? Does my street need to be renamed?
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=17506.0
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I saw a couple of posts from Mike Russell, the MSP for the area yesterday, that the subject of the Jim Crow Rock at Dunoon is back on the agenda
https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/anti-racism-campaigner-hits-out-at-controversial-jim-crow-rock-in-dunoon/
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Yep, it's not a simple thing - I've posted, see link below, about the issue of Glasgow street names. I live in what's known as the Merchant City, which is called after those who profited from the goods such as tobacco, cotton, and sugar that were produced with slave labour. A short walk from me is a statue to David Livingstone, which is quite an uncomfortable sight with its patronising portrayal of African people - should it go? Does my street need to be renamed?
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=17506.0
On the whole, I think street names should remain as they are. It is education that is necessary and changing names doesn't alter history. I often think that all streets named Saint something should be changed, but that wouldn't help change history either!!
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On the whole, I think street names should remain as they are. It is education that is necessary and changing names doesn't alter history. I often think that all streets named Saint something should be changed, but that wouldn't help change history either!!
IS there anyone arguing that the changing the names would alter history? Surely it's rather that the statues and street names are celebrations of slavery?
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IS there anyone arguing that the changing the names would alter history? Surely it's rather that the statues and street names are celebrations of slavery?
To people today it may seem that the statue celebrates slavery, but that was not the reason it was erected- unless you can show otherwise?
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To people today it may seem that the statue celebrates slavery, but that was not the reason it was erected- unless you can show otherwise?
Does that really matter? A statue is a celebration of someone's life. Given the numbers who died under Colston's watch, is it not reasonable to see that as a celebration of the whole of his life. The statue to Jimmy Savile wasn't erected to celebrate his sexual assaults but I don't see that means it should have remained.
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To people today it may seem that the statue celebrates slavery, but that was not the reason it was erected- unless you can show otherwise?
It was erected for his "good works" in Bristol.
What isn't easy to quantify is how many of those good works were funded by his involvement with the slave trade. It could be argued he funded it through his other commercial ventures, but even if this were the case I can see that it is offensive to have a statue to a man who took part in the deaths of so many people who were trafficked into slavery.
A solution suggested in various quarters is to have the statues removed to museums where they can be shown within a proper historical context so that the whole story is told and it is not left as appearing to be somebody who is celebrated.
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It was erected for his "good works" in Bristol.
What isn't easy to quantify is how many of those good works were funded by his involvement with the slave trade. It could be argued he funded it through his other commercial ventures, but even if this were the case I can see that it is offensive to have a statue to a man who took part in the deaths of so many people who were trafficked into slavery.
A solution suggested in various quarters is to have the statues removed to museums where they can be shown within a proper historical context so that the whole story is told and it is not left as appearing to be somebody who is celebrated.
Agree. The best thing to have done was to have put it in the museum long ago, but that wasn't done and that's a pity, but can't be undone.
My reader (who has not been able to come here for these last months and oh, how I do miss that weekly joy) has still a third of the book called 'Gentry' to go through. Some of the recent parts have been about the lives of some of the slave trader families. The author, Adam Nicolson, has done much research into the circumstances and we have both learnt a lot.
Should all those who have benefited from the philanthropy of people such as Edward Colston now reject it and don sack cloth and ashes? Most decidedly not of course.
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Anyone who was actively involved in slavery, an atrocious blot on history, should have their memorials removed, even if they did things, which were also regarded as good.
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Little Britain removed from streaming services
https://amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/jun/09/little-britain-removed-from-bbc-iplayer-netflix-and-britbox-blackface?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
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In some ways the fuss over names, statues, blackface and so on seems too much of a diversion - getting stuck on a symbolic level.
It would be better if people concentrated on actual day to day discrimination, injustice or just racist assaults. The other thing is that slavery still exists, including in the UK and Europe. In fact reports on modern slavery suggest there is more slavery now than in the 17th or 18th centuries.
Use the symbols to make a point - but fix the actual problems?
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In some ways the fuss over names, statues, blackface and so on seems too much of a diversion - getting stuck on a symbolic level.
It would be better if people concentrated on actual day to day discrimination, injustice or just racist assaults. The other thing is that slavery still exists, including in the UK and Europe. In fact reports on modern slavery suggest there is more slavery now than in the 17th or 18th centuries.
Use the symbols to make a point - but fix the actual problems?
I don't think it is that easy to see a society as different from its presentation. People see what is approved and then accept that surely?
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Goodbye Gladstone
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/university-rename-student-halls-named-18387566.amp?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR3P2u1x3TXSfJsqpAc21frGZee8yZQIKIXFgcz4g6pnHDvb7DfD7fbFx-0
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Anyone who was actively involved in slavery, an atrocious blot on history, should have their memorials removed, even if they did things, which were also regarded as good.
George Washington?
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I don't think it is that easy to see a society as different from its presentation. People see what is approved and then accept that surely?
But why is an actor putting make up on to look like somebody else bad in some cases but not bad in others?
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George Washington?
Everyone who supported slavery should have their statues removed.
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Everyone who supported slavery should have their statues removed.
So any statues of George Washington must go. In fact, the same applies to several of the founding fathers of the USA who supported slavery.
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But why is an actor putting make up on to look like somebody else bad in some cases but not bad in others?
The motivation behind it, what it portrays, and its possible effects.
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So any statues of George Washington must go. In fact, the same applies to several of the founding fathers of the USA who supported slavery.
Absolutely. The way the native Americans were treated by the white settlers was a disgrace. >:(
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The motivation behind it, what it portrays, and its possible effects.
"possible effects" is weasel words. You could justify any offence taking by talking about "possible effects". So let's drop the word "possible".
"The motivation behind it, what it portrays, and its effects."
So let's take the example of Orson Wells playing Othello, or the Olivier version, if you prefer. Can you explain why either of those two actors putting make up on to look like a black man is so bad in terms of your criteria?
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Absolutely. The way the native Americans were treated by the white settlers was a disgrace. >:(
So the US will have to change the name of its capital. I am scared by 'Absolutely'. This needs society to consider what it wants to accept.
To quote George Orwell
'Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.'
I don't think that means everything has to be saved as in itself that is not a neutral position but we need to be able to take a nuanced and considered position.
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"possible effects" is weasel words. You could justify any offence taking by talking about "possible effects". So let's drop the word "possible".
"The motivation behind it, what it portrays, and its effects."
So let's take the example of Orson Wells playing Othello, or the Olivier version, if you prefer. Can you explain why either of those two actors putting make up on to look like a black man is so bad in terms of your criteria?
White actors should never play the part of the black person, that is racist. I remember how the Black and White Minstrel show was castigated years ago as white people blacked their faces instead of using black musicians. >:(
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The US needs to get to grips with its racist past and present.
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"possible effects" is weasel words. You could justify any offence taking by talking about "possible effects". So let's drop the word "possible".
"The motivation behind it, what it portrays, and its effects."
So let's take the example of Orson Wells playing Othello, or the Olivier version, if you prefer. Can you explain why either of those two actors putting make up on to look like a black man is so bad in terms of your criteria?
Let's not drop the word possible since it would be impossible to consider whether something is good or bad beforehand. Whenever you weigh up options on decisions, surely you consider the possible effects?
As to Welles or Olivier, nothing I wrote implied whether I thought Welles or Olivier's actions were 'so bad'.
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White actors should never play the part of the black person, that is racist. I remember how the Black and White Minstrel show was castigated years ago as white people blacked their faces instead of using black musicians. >:(
So can black actors play white characters?
How about men playing women?
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Absolutely. The way the native Americans were treated by the white settlers was a disgrace. >:(
George Washington owned slaves. I'm not aware that he treated native Americans badly (although, of course, it's possible). Most of the worst behaviour towards the natives was done by later Americans.
Anyway, the point is that a lot of people in our past that we celebrate now also did some atrocious things. Washington owned slaves. Darwin was racist by modern standards. Churchill did some pretty bad things before saving us from the most racist regime of the 20th century.
I really hate these blanket rules that people keep proposing that fail to take into account the nuances of individual cases.
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White actors should never play the part of the black person, that is racist.
The whole point of acting is to pretend to be something you are not. If we applied your rule even handedly, there would be no acting. People would only be allowed to portray themselves.
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Let's not drop the word possible since it would be impossible to consider whether something is good or bad beforehand. Whenever you weigh up options on decisions, surely you consider the possible effects?
No let's drop it. If you are allowed "possible" you can make up anything. A possible effect of me taking my car to the shops this afternoon is that somebody steps into the road in front of me and gets killed. Does that mean I'm bad for wanting to drive to the shops?
"possible" is weasel words.
As to Welles or Olivier, nothing I wrote implied whether I thought Welles or Olivier's actions were 'so bad'.
I never suggested you did. I'm exploring the thesis that "blackface is racist by definition".
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No let's drop it. If you are allowed "possible" you can make up anything. A possible effect of me taking my car to the shops this afternoon is that somebody steps into the road in front of me and gets killed. Does that mean I'm bad for wanting to drive to the shops?
"possible" is weasel words.
I never suggested you did. I'm exploring the thesis that "blackface is racist by definition".
You are just being illogical. You weigh up possibilities all the time and that informs what you and what society thinks should happen. Your example actually shows you do that.
And what you said was
'So let's take the example of Orson Wells playing Othello, or the Olivier version, if you prefer. Can you explain why either of those two actors putting make up on to look like a black man is so bad in terms of your criteria?'
Why would I be 'explaining' what was 'so bad' ?
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SO having read a lot in the past about Indian history under British rule and after, we really need to talk about Churchill:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/winston-churchill-genocide-dictator-shashi-tharoor-melbourne-writers-festival-a7936141.html
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The whole point of acting is to pretend to be something you are not. If we applied your rule even handedly, there would be no acting. People would only be allowed to portray themselves.
Oh come on that is an excuse for racism! ::)
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SO having read a lot in the past about Indian history under British rule and after, we really need to talk about Churchill:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/winston-churchill-genocide-dictator-shashi-tharoor-melbourne-writers-festival-a7936141.html
Sashi Tharoor's book "Inglorious Empire" is a great read. The way to put right effects of Churchill's past misdeeds is by cooperative working and constructive fair trading - not chucking out his statues whilst still following his methods.
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Oh come on that is an excuse for racism! ::)
No, jeremyp is pointing out that the reduction ad absurdum of your position. Should a black person play Iago?
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If removing statues of racist people does not harm/ have a negative impact on anyone, why do we need to be so attached to tradition and history, given the positive impact that removing statues will have on people affected by systemic racism? We often update our views and let go of tradition.
Other countries (including African countries where slavery was normal) might not remove their statues as they have decided as a society that they can live with the harm those people carried out in those societies. It's up to British society to decide on the statement they want to make.
It appears that those who want to remove statues want to make a statement about the effects of historical slavery on today's society. It has a symbolic effect of focusing the issues on the inequalities. If race is just a cultural creation and people were discriminated against for centuries in terms of housing, education, jobs, ability to create and accumulate wealth based on their race, which has created the inequalities we see today, why not draw attention to a historic wrong by removing statues to acknowledge the reasons for today's inequalities? Especially if the statues represent wealth created for white Britain at the expense of slaves, who had few if any human rights as they were considered property and not people. Maybe it depends on whether people think the achievements of slave owners can blot out the historical wrong of slavery. Because I think that is the impression created if the statues remain in place rather than being moved to a museum. I personally am not affected by the statues as I have a comfortable middle-class life, but I can understand why they would be problematic for many black people facing systemic racism.
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Sashi Tharoor's book "Inglorious Empire" is a great read. The way to put right effects of Churchill's past misdeeds is by cooperative working and constructive fair trading - not chucking out his statues whilst still following his methods.
I don't disagree, but how do you even get to a point where people accept a need for change. While ever they view Churchill as our saviour in the 2nd world war and disregard his abhorrent views I think it unlikely change can be effected. Education is where it needs to start. Teach about the whole person not just the World War 2 leader.
For those of you who doubt Churchill's thorough nastiness and hatred:
“Tell them that if we have any more of their cheek we will set the Jews on them and drive them into the gutter, from which they should never have emerged” — Winston Churchill on how to deal with Egypt in 1951.
“I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion”
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If removing statues of racist people does not harm/ have a negative impact on anyone, why do we need to be so attached to tradition and history, given the positive impact that removing statues will have on people affected by systemic racism? We often update our views and let go of tradition.
Other countries (including African countries where slavery was normal) might not remove their statues as they have decided as a society that they can live with the harm those people carried out in those societies. It's up to British society to decide on the statement they want to make.
It appears that those who want to remove statues want to make a statement about the effects of historical slavery on today's society. It has a symbolic effect of focusing the issues on the inequalities. If race is just a cultural creation and people were discriminated against for centuries in terms of housing, education, jobs, ability to create and accumulate wealth based on their race, which has created the inequalities we see today, why not draw attention to a historic wrong by removing statues to acknowledge the reasons for today's inequalities? Especially if the statues represent wealth created for white Britain at the expense of slaves, who had few if any human rights as they were considered property and not people. Maybe it depends on whether people think the achievements of slave owners can blot out the historical wrong of slavery. Because I think that is the impression created if the statues remain in place rather than being moved to a museum. I personally am not affected by the statues as I have a comfortable middle-class life, but I can understand why they would be problematic for many black people facing systemic racism.
Completely agree - I've seen the argument that in removing/moving the statues that we are retrofitting our morals on people in the past - the problem to me is that in simply keeping the statues we are then imposing the morals of the past upon people today. I get the idea of using the statues to educate but Colston is now a lot better known, and many more people are educated about him than when the statue was standing.
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Completely agree - I've seen the argument that in removing/moving the statues that we are retrofitting our morals on people in the past - the problem to me is that in simply keeping the statues we are then imposing the morals of the past upon people today. I get the idea of using the statues to educate but Colston is now a lot better known, and many more people are educated about him than when the statue was standing.
Indeed. But getting rid of the statues, whilst removing a daily affront, does not end racism.
It would be better to have them covered up, educate people on the ways the actions of those empire builders and pirates caused the injustices of today. Then fix those injustices - once eliminated, by all means destroy the statues if you like.
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Indeed. But getting rid of the statues, whilst removing a daily affront, does not end racism.
It would be better to have them covered up, educate people on the ways the actions of those empire builders and pirates caused the injustices of today. Then fix those injustices - once eliminated, by all means destroy the statues if you like.
I think the idea that removing the statues or street names will end racism is a straw man. I don't see this as an either or. Nor did I make any blanket suggestion of destroying all the statues.
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Some interesting debates in Benin about its role in the Atlantic slave trade and how to remember those involved:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html
https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-08-20/willful-amnesia-how-africans-forgot-and-remembered-their-role-slave-trade
And a slightly more cynical view that apologies could have an element of political self-interest:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/how-to-apologize-for-slavery/375650/
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Some interesting debates in Benin about its role in the Atlantic slave trade and how to remember those involved:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/an-african-country-reckons-with-its-history-of-selling-slaves/2018/01/29/5234f5aa-ff9a-11e7-86b9-8908743c79dd_story.html
https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-08-20/willful-amnesia-how-africans-forgot-and-remembered-their-role-slave-trade
And a slightly more cynical view that apologies could have an element of political self-interest:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/how-to-apologize-for-slavery/375650/
Some good stuff in the articles, I have to admit to struggling with the idea of an apology - I remember when Tony Blair apologised for the Irish Famine, and thinking what was the point of that, it's just words. And I think that it could be an easy cover to ignore the ongoing systemic problems.
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The US needs to get to grips with its racist past and present.
And do you really think that tearing down Washington statues is going to do the trick? It wil of course do nothing of the kind.
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You are just being illogical.
No I'm not. I'm the one being logical.
You weigh up possibilities all the time and that informs what you and what society thinks should happen. Your example actually shows you do that.
But I discount most of them as absurd and not worth worrying about.
And what you said was
'So let's take the example of Orson Wells playing Othello, or the Olivier version, if you prefer. Can you explain why either of those two actors putting make up on to look like a black man is so bad in terms of your criteria?'
Why would I be 'explaining' what was 'so bad' ?
Because I asked you to. If you think there's nothing bad per se, that's fine, but some people seem to have labelled the mere act of a white person pretending to be a black person (i.e. acting a part) as a heinous crime. I'd like to know why.
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Oh come on that is an excuse for racism! ::)
How so? Is it sexism for Brendan O'Carroll to play the part of a woman in Mrs Brown's Boys?
Would it be racism for Idris Elba to be cat as James Bond? I it alienist for any human to play the part of The Doctor?
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No I'm not. I'm the one being logical.
But I discount most of them as absurd and not worth worrying about.
Because I asked you to. If you think there's nothing bad per se, that's fine, but some people seem to have labelled the mere act of a white person pretending to be a black person (i.e. acting a part) as a heinous crime. I'd like to know why.
So you consider possible outcomes before acting - which is what my position said people and society should do. Possible is not a weasel word - it describes exactly what you say you do. To take your driving example, if you thought your eyesight was a bit dodgy you wouldn't drive 30 miles to test it because the possible outcome would be more likely. We assign likelihoods to outcomes and we decide on that basis.
Ask the people who think it is a heinous crime. I think there's a discussion to be had about black roles and blackface but I'm not getting into a defence of something I haven't said.
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I get the idea of using the statues to educate but Colston is now a lot better known, and many more people are educated about him than when the statue was standing.
I don't think many people are more educated about him than were before. Everybody now knows he was a slave trader but that's just one fact. That's not really education. I doubt if many people could actually tell you what he actually did in the slave trade or even where he lived. They certainly couldn't tell you how much of his fortune came from the slave trade because nobody knows.
If it were up to me, I'd have the statue recovered from the floating harbour and put on display in a museum as it is without cleaning off the graffiti or repairing it. The plaque next to it would describe exactly who he was and why the statue was removed and dumped in the water.
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Ask the people who think it is a heinous crime. I think there's a discussion to be had about black roles and blackface but I'm not getting into a defence of something I haven't said.
I didn't ask you to defend anything, I asked you to express an opinion. If you don't want to, that's fine with me.
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And do you really think that tearing down Washington statues is going to do the trick? It wil of course do nothing of the kind.
Not sure. I have certainly learned more about Colston, Columbus, and Rhodes, than I did before. I think statues and monuments make history opaque. The black historian (Olusoga), said that pulling down Colston is itself a historical act, a bit like the Boston Tea Party.
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I don't think many people are more educated about him than were before. Everybody now knows he was a slave trader but that's just one fact. That's not really education. I doubt if many people could actually tell you what he actually did in the slave trade or even where he lived. They certainly couldn't tell you how much of his fortune came from the slave trade because nobody knows.
If it were up to me, I'd have the statue recovered from the floating harbour and put on display in a museum as it is without cleaning off the graffiti or repairing it. The plaque next to it would describe exactly who he was and why the statue was removed and dumped in the water.
Knowing one thing is more than knowing nothing. And the point is that the discussion itself is part of the education - the idea that the statue was doing much education is simply wrong,
I like your suggested display of the statue
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I didn't ask you to defend anything, I asked you to express an opinion. If you don't want to, that's fine with me.
Yes, you did again to quote you
'So let's take the example of Orson Wells playing Othello, or the Olivier version, if you prefer. Can you explain why either of those two actors putting make up on to look like a black man is so bad in terms of your criteria?'
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Not sure. I have certainly learned more about Colston, Columbus, and Rhodes, than I did before. I think statues and monuments make history opaque. The black historian (Olusoga), said that pulling down Colston is itself a historical act, a bit like the Boston Tea Party.
Of-course. If the statue is ever displayed again, maybe it can be accompanied by a video of it being pulled down, and explanatory discussion.
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Of-course. If the statue is ever displayed again, maybe it can be accompanied by a video of it being pulled down, and explanatory discussion.
Yes, I thought Olusoga's point was sharp. I think film of Colston's demise is already being inserted into seminars on postcolonialism. The slogan in Oxford the other day was "decolonize!", and it's odd to think that England hasn't really done that.
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I didn't ask you to defend anything, I asked you to express an opinion. If you don't want to, that's fine with me.
Don't forget brownface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_brownface
I don't think there is anything heinous about anyone acting a part but quite often these roles are intended to alienate or humiliate a minority: eg re. B&W Minstrels: "to reinforce stereotypes, portraying brown people as lazy, stubborn, and unable to assimilate into American life" - so people are bound to be offended.
Also consider Hank Azaria on Apu:
https://www.indiewire.com/2020/02/hank-azaria-based-apu-racist-peter-sellers-character-1202213323/
In my youth I quite enjoyed Peter Sellers in The Millionairess and The Party, however, looking back, there were plenty of Indian actors that could have played those roles much better.
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Don't forget brownface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_brownface
I don't think there is anything heinous about anyone acting a part but quite often these roles are intended to alienate or humiliate a minority: eg re. B&W Minstrels: "to reinforce stereotypes, portraying brown people as lazy, stubborn, and unable to assimilate into American life" - so people are bound to be offended.
Also consider Hank Azaria on Apu:
https://www.indiewire.com/2020/02/hank-azaria-based-apu-racist-peter-sellers-character-1202213323/
In my youth I quite enjoyed Peter Sellers in The Millionairess and The Party, however, looking back, there were plenty of Indian actors that could have played those roles much better.
And given the comparative paucity of roles for BAME actors, it also reduced the opportunity for them
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Yes, my memory of Olivier as Othello, was that he caricatured black people, and being Olivier, did it with great gusto. Rather repellent today.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-52990464
Liverpool University is to remain a building named after William Gladstone due to his involvement with the slave trade.
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There's going to be a lot of films needing discussion, not just Gone With The Wind.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52990714
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This seems reasonably balanced.
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/10/rewriting-history-historians-statue-past?__twitter_impression=true
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There's going to be a lot of films needing discussion, not just Gone With The Wind.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52990714
The Jolson Story springs to mind.
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Good piece from Craig Murray
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/06/ultimately-all-monuments-are-ozymandias/?fbclid=IwAR1950l5yo0OlpEO1z-IcwAz95UoL3nyBDys91qflp4Jv6vjeg0_7ZjZR1E
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Retired US General and former CIA director, David Petreaus, arguing for renaming the military bases he trained at if they are named after Confederate leaders:
Yesterday afternoon, an Army spokesperson said that Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy is now “open to a bipartisan discussion” on renaming the bases. That’s the right call. Once the names of these bases are stripped of the obscuring power of tradition and folklore, renaming the installations becomes an easy, even obvious, decision.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/
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Some retired senior US Army officers calling for renaming of US Army bases:
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2020/06/dear-mr-secretary-you-can-rename-army-bases-right-now/166025/
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53004638
The Statue of Baden-Powell, the founder of the Scouts, is to be taken down. I had heard years ago he wasn't a pleasant man, but didn't realise he was a supporter of Hitler a racist and homophobic.
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The League of Gentlemen and The Mighty Boosh removed from Netflix
https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/10/netflix-axes-mighty-boosh-league-gentlemen-blackface-scenes-12835297/
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? ? ?
https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/11/fawlty-towers-dont-mention-the-war-episode-removed-from-uktv?CMP=twt_a-culture_b-gdnculture&__twitter_impression=true
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Actually looking into it it's more likely due to this
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/jan/23/fawlty-towers-isnt-racist-major-gowen-is
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? ? ?
https://amp.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/11/fawlty-towers-dont-mention-the-war-episode-removed-from-uktv?CMP=twt_a-culture_b-gdnculture&__twitter_impression=true
Utterly stupid. How you can watch the episode and not understand it is taking the piss out of racist attitudes is beyond me.
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It would appear that the BLM activists have succeeded in creating divisiveness where previously there was none.
I am sure that the vast majority of the British public would have accepted statues and other artefacts as part of history without associating them with any idea of promoting racism.
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It would appear that the BLM activists have succeeded in creating divisiveness where previously there was none.
I am sure that the vast majority of the British public would have accepted statues and other artefacts as part of history without associating them with any idea of promoting racism.
Then the vast majority of the British people would be showing themselves as being dumb as fuck. That a member of the Roman Catholic church is indulging in a whitewash of past atrocities is presumably just force of habit.
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It would appear that the BLM activists have succeeded in creating divisiveness where previously there was none.
I am sure that the vast majority of the British public would have accepted statues and other artefacts as part of history without associating them with any idea of promoting racism.
And you call yourself a Christian!!!!!! :o :o :o Many people had no idea that these statues were commemorating slave traders and racists. Now we do know, their statues should be taken down and put in a museum with plaques telling the story of their unpleasant lives. >:(
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53029390
Good for the Bishop, whom I have met on a number of occasions.
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It would appear that the BLM activists have succeeded in creating divisiveness where previously there was none.
If you think there is not a divide on ethnic grounds in this country, then you must be living in another country.
Fuckwitland to be precise.
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It would appear that the BLM activists have succeeded in creating divisiveness where previously there was none.
I am sure that the vast majority of the British public would have accepted statues and other artefacts as part of history without associating them with any idea of promoting racism.
I think you need to remove your rose-tinted specs since if you think there was no divisiveness prior to these protests, given that these protests are a response to overt social divisiveness (several other adjectives may be applied here), then you are implicitly defending the indefensible while denying the valid concerns of those who have long-since recognised that certain statues glorify and celebrate the worst of human conduct.
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Utterly stupid. How you can watch the episode and not understand it is taking the piss out of racist attitudes is beyond me.
Decision now reversed according to the news today. They are just going to broadcast a warning before showing.
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This report (ch4 last night) tells a story about how "the system" goes about ensuring people are kept in the boxes in which it thinks they belong:
https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-black-bank-manager-to-sue-metropolitan-police-for-racial-discrimination-after-26-month-nightmare
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Decision now reversed according to the news today. They are just going to broadcast a warning before showing.
As I noted earlier, it would appear the issue was more about the use of the words nigger and wog, which in the BBC versions had already been edited out previously with the agreement of John Cleese. Don't see why the same cannot be done here.
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I think you need to remove your rose-tinted specs since if you think there was no divisiveness prior to these protests, given that these protests are a response to overt social divisiveness (several other adjectives may be applied here), then you are implicitly defending the indefensible while denying the valid concerns of those who have long-since recognised that certain statues glorify and celebrate the worst of human conduct.
I am not denying that there was no divisiveness before.
I am just relaying what many people feel that the recent extreme BLM activity has made things worse rather than better.
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I am not denying that there was no divisiveness before.
I am just relaying what many people feel that the recent extreme BLM activity has made things worse rather than better.
Worse for who?
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I am not denying that there was no divisiveness before.
I am just relaying what many people feel that the recent extreme BLM activity has made things worse rather than better.
Because they aren't accepting their oppression like the good little piccaninnies should. Your posts stink of racism.
ETA And to quote you
'It would appear that the BLM activists have succeeded in creating divisiveness where previously there was none.'
So you did say there was no divisiveness.
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I am not denying that there was no divisiveness before.
Re-read your own #155 - and then you can apologise.
I am just relaying what many people feel that the recent extreme BLM activity has made things worse rather than better.
Worse than being asphyxiated because a large policeman had been kneeling on your neck for around 9 minutes?
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Your posts stink of racism.
As a devout Christian, I look upon all people as God's creation made in His image and openly condemn acts of violence and persecution against any fellow human beings.
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As a devout Christian, I look upon all people as God's creation made in His image and openly condemn acts of violence and persecution against any fellow human beings.
Then why were you blaming BLM for the division, and ignoring the racism against black people?
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As a devout Christian, I look upon all people as God's creation made in His image and openly condemn acts of violence and persecution against any fellow human beings.
If humans are made in the image of god, is it black and white?
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As a devout Christian, I look upon all people as God's creation made in His image and openly condemn acts of violence and persecution against any fellow human beings.
And can you admit as I pointed out in the post you replied to here, but you edited out, that you did in fact say there was no division until BLM actions?
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Re-read your own #155 - and then you can apologise.
I was talking about divisiveness relating to historical statues and artefacts prior to the recent activist demonstrations. Perhaps there might have been some which I was unaware of - but I am certainly aware that it exists now.
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I was talking about divisiveness relating to historical statues and artefacts prior to the recent activist demonstrations. Perhaps there might have been some which I was unaware of - but I am certainly aware that it exists now.
There have been lots - even if you only managed to readabout the whole discussion of Colston at a fairly light level you should have been aware that there has been discussion about putting a new plaque for over 2 years. Your ignorance is just reflective of you blaming black people for objecting to celebrations of slavers.
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This is now on i-player again. Worth watching, especially for those on here who want to blame black people for objecting to the celebration of their oppression.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b063db18/britains-forgotten-slave-owners?fbclid=IwAR0N4iFrx5eUav9zEv0bOF0kB9Rtlkxxa4I374TRdU2B4pf6rfckUwivwew
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I share Eric Weinstein's view.
There are any number of brutal and lethal killings by police on YouTube. Most people killed by police in America are white, some by black policemen. This didn't suddenly just start happening, it happened under a black president too. The unique thing about this of course is that it was broadcast live. One of the cops was Asian and an another is Black. If that has been a black knee on his neck would the media have picked it up? There is an older video of bodycam footage of an armed officer that had been called out to some drunk white college kid who had allegedly been drunkenly waving a gun out of his window. He orders him out of the flat and onto the floor prostrate and getting confused by the cop's screamed orfers. He starts crying and begs for his life but ends up dead. The cop got off because he feared for his life.This isn't whataboutism but I'm curious, if that had been a black kid would it instantly change from the callous slaying of a terrified unarmed man to a race murder?
This was a very timely tragedy
https://youtu.be/EQjBZVssr1I
https://youtu.be/EQjBZVssr1I (https://youtu.be/EQjBZVssr1I)
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Welcome back, Prof W
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It is worth pointing out that you are at least three times more likely to be killed by the police if you are black as opposed to white:
"A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men."
This would suggest that something other than "ordinary police brutality" comes into play as far as black people are concerned.
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Been couple of helicopters and lots of police around centre of Glasgow today with the statue protectors out to save Robert Peel. He got daubed last week with ACAB (All Cops are Bastards) and a hammer and sickle.
It's all madness.
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Now this is a statue protest
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22978219?fbclid=IwAR3xi1h-TLlI72o-xAZHcUuswu89uiEZLHmlisbhlC-aN8UZsUauOm6MQKU
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If humans are made in the image of god, is it black and white?
Black.
All humans were black until they migrated away from Africa.
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It is worth pointing out that you are at least three times more likely to be killed by the police if you are black as opposed to white:
"A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men."
This would suggest that something other than "ordinary police brutality" comes into play as far as black people are concerned.
Black people are significantly more likely to have encounters with the police in the USA than white people. Once a (male) person gets into a confrontation with the police they have about the same chance of dying whatever their skin colour.
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2020/06/14/mcwhorter-on-police-violence/
So there are two issues here. One is the high probability of death at the hands of US police in an encounter which I think is mostly due to things like poor police training, poor selection and the high rate of gun ownership in the US.
The other is the problem of why black people are more likely to get involved with the police at all. Poverty is part of that, but also systemic racism e.g. black people are more likely to get pulled over etc. The answer to this problem isn't as easy as the other.
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Now this is a statue protest
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22978219?fbclid=IwAR3xi1h-TLlI72o-xAZHcUuswu89uiEZLHmlisbhlC-aN8UZsUauOm6MQKU
I bet he wouldn't do that on a statue of the Kaiser.
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Black people are significantly more likely to have encounters with the police in the USA than white people. Once a (male) person gets into a confrontation with the police they have about the same chance of dying whatever their skin colour.
No. The figures I quoted were quite specific. Per one hundred thousand.
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No. The figures I quoted were quite specific. Per one hundred thousand.
Jeremyp was pointing out though that there are far more encounters with the police for black people per hundred thousand.
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I share Eric Weinstein's view.
There are any number of brutal and lethal killings by police on YouTube. Most people killed by police in America are white, some by black policemen. This didn't suddenly just start happening, it happened under a black president too. The unique thing about this of course is that it was broadcast live. One of the cops was Asian and an another is Black. If that has been a black knee on his neck would the media have picked it up? There is an older video of bodycam footage of an armed officer that had been called out to some drunk white college kid who had allegedly been drunkenly waving a gun out of his window. He orders him out of the flat and onto the floor prostrate and getting confused by the cop's screamed orfers. He starts crying and begs for his life but ends up dead. The cop got off because he feared for his life.This isn't whataboutism but I'm curious, if that had been a black kid would it instantly change from the callous slaying of a terrified unarmed man to a race murder?
This was a very timely tragedy
https://youtu.be/EQjBZVssr1I
https://youtu.be/EQjBZVssr1I (https://youtu.be/EQjBZVssr1I)
Good to hear from you.
In any long term situation where armed police or military are policing civilians there will be many otherwise avoidable killings. There are varied reasons for this but statistics is not really of much use as the actions in each case must be judged on the facts of that case.
And, overall the impact on communities being, or perceived as being, repressed and the subsequent tensions and conflicts will not be resolved by stats either. Every death is felt to be too many, it's not a matter of arithmetic.
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Black.
All humans were black until they migrated away from Africa.
Sort of depends what you mean by black?
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No. The figures I quoted were quite specific. Per one hundred thousand.
If you read carefully you can see that the arguments are not in conflict.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-53064929
This is shocking and then some, the CofE should be ashamed of itself. >:(
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No. The figures I quoted were quite specific. Per one hundred thousand.
I know.
Black people are significantly more likely to have encounters with the police per one hundred thousand.
Edit: Ninja'd by at least two people.
What I was trying to say is that given you are in an encounter with the police in the USA, your chances of surviving that encounter aren't that different whether you are black or white. But, your chance of being killed is significantly higher in the USA than in pretty much any other developed country.
Unfortunately, black people are more likely to be involved in an encounter with the police. Part of this is poverty: crime is correlated with poverty (both victims and perpetrators, I believe). Part of it is racism. A black person driving a car is much more likely to get pulled over than a white person; a black person loitering is more likely to have the cops called on him than a white person and so on.
If you want to stop the violence by police officers on black people, there are two problems to solve:
1. US police brutality in general
2. Racism in the police and elsewhere.
Solving the second problem alone won't stop the police killings. To be fair, I think the protestors recognise this, hence the calls for defunding etc.
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Sort of depends what you mean by black?
Of a similar appearance to modern native sub Saharan Africans.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-53064929
This is shocking and then some, the CofE should be ashamed of itself. >:(
You are easily shocked.
I'm more disappointed. I'm disappointed that whoever wrote the letter on behalf of the diocese thought that it was acceptable to write such a thing. Apart from being racist and illegal, it also slanders the parishioners referred to: who says they wouldn't accept a black curate?
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Awful. Also I don't believe he would have felt uncomfortable nor his parishioners feel uncomfortable with him. Shades of the Windrush here when early west Indian immigrants were made unwelcome in mainstream churches, even by clergy.
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Of a similar appearance to modern native sub Saharan Africans.
.. but they don't all look the same! - not that I understand exactly what "modern native" supposed to mean either...
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Another afternoon and evening of people saving statues near me. Apparently from the 'fenian bastards'
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Dominic Raab and Game of Thrones
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53093244
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And here we are in wonderful Scotland
https://news.stv.tv/east-central/1432466-neil-lennon-i-m-abused-because-i-m-catholic-and-irish?top
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Dominic Raab and Game of Thrones
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53093244
Heaven only knows why I should come to the defence of Dominic Raab, but I fear that the opprobrium being heaped on him for his comment is merely opportunistic. The act - "taking a knee" - is just culturally bizarre.
Reducing one's height is a sign of subservience. It is an acknowledgement of inferior status. Men kneel to receive a knighthood. People bow when presented to individuals of higher status than themselves. In churches, congregations kneel before God and Catholics genuflect before taking a pew (or they used to). We talk about High Table at formal meals. Conductors bow to their audience - a relic of the time when musicians were servants in the houses of nobility.
Attempting to reduce one's height as an act of respect appears to be universal. So why did Afro-American sportsmen "take the knee" during the national anthem - or whatever?
My guess would be just to be noticeable. They could have held their arms outstretched, they could have jumped up and down, they could have sat on the ground.
They appear to have chosen an act which draws attention to them but which also may be interpreted as respectful. Comments by some Americans give the impression that the behaviour is beyond the pale and should not be tolerated. If it is primarily an act of rebellion then why should any of us on this side of the Atlantic readily understand it?
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Heaven only knows why I should come to the defence of Dominic Raab, but I fear that the opprobrium being heaped on him for his comment is merely opportunistic. The act - "taking a knee" - is just culturally bizarre.
Reducing one's height is a sign of subservience. It is an acknowledgement of inferior status. Men kneel to receive a knighthood. People bow when presented to individuals of higher status than themselves. In churches, congregations kneel before God and Catholics genuflect before taking a pew (or they used to). We talk about High Table at formal meals. Conductors bow to their audience - a relic of the time when musicians were servants in the houses of nobility.
Attempting to reduce one's height as an act of respect appears to be universal. So why did Afro-American sportsmen "take the knee" during the national anthem - or whatever?
My guess would be just to be noticeable. They could have held their arms outstretched, they could have jumped up and down, they could have sat on the ground.
They appear to have chosen an act which draws attention to them but which also may be interpreted as respectful. Comments by some Americans give the impression that the behaviour is beyond the pale and should not be tolerated. If it is primarily an act of rebellion then why should any of us on this side of the Atlantic readily understand it?
And it's got bugger all to do with Game of Thrones Raab both showed his ignorance of that, and the significance of it in Game of Thrones.
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Heaven only knows why I should come to the defence of Dominic Raab, but I fear that the opprobrium being heaped on him for his comment is merely opportunistic. The act - "taking a knee" - is just culturally bizarre.
...
Essentially Raab is getting flak for being ignorant and insensitive.
...
Attempting to reduce one's height as an act of respect appears to be universal. So why did Afro-American sportsmen "take the knee" during the national anthem - or whatever?
My guess would be just to be noticeable. They could have held their arms outstretched, they could have jumped up and down, they could have sat on the ground.
They appear to have chosen an act which draws attention to them but which also may be interpreted as respectful. Comments by some Americans give the impression that the behaviour is beyond the pale and should not be tolerated. If it is primarily an act of rebellion then why should any of us on this side of the Atlantic readily understand it?
The obvious alternative was the Black Power salute of the '60s - and imagine the response to that - given the continuing violence and criticism. It is not an act of rebellion but a, respectful, request for reason, peace and equality.
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Statues bad
https://eu.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/24/madison-protests-what-know-forward-statue-toppled/3249239001/
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.. but they don't all look the same! - not that I understand exactly what "modern native" supposed to mean either...
I give up then. You define black.
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I give up then. You define black.
No point in another tedious discussion of what a word may or may not mean.
Whatever was meant by "the image of God" it clearly did not include skin colour or other physical characteristics.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-53201667
Just read this article and don't really know what to make of it. Part of me does think it's going too far but I also accept I don't (or can't) fully understand. Does it really matter who does the voices as long as they're good at it?
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https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-53201667
Just read this article and don't really know what to make of it. Part of me does think it's going too far but I also accept I don't (or can't) fully understand. Does it really matter who does the voices as long as they're good at it?
About time too, white actors should play white people and black actors black people.
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About time too, white actors should play white people and black actors black people.
The thing is, before the voice actors became stars, no one knew if they were black or white.
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The thing is, before the voice actors became stars, no one knew if they were black or white.
So what? It was WRONG for white actors to play black characters.
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About time too, white actors should play white people and black actors black people.
So other than Othello, no black actor will appear in Shakespeare?
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So other than Othello, no black actor will appear in Shakespeare?
And, of course it goes further than this. Should John Hurt have played Quentin Crisp?
What about able bodied people playing differently abled characters as happened via technical wizardry in JK Rowlings detective series (name of series escapes me). Now not all these issues are exactly the same as the race one, but if it is being done on the grounds of life experience or redressing the balance of representation they are close enough, then where do you stop?
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The case of Elijah McClain from last year is getting lots more attention.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/aurora-police-in-colorado-questioned-on-use-of-force-during-elijah-mcclain-protest-report
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https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-53201667
Just read this article and don't really know what to make of it. Part of me does think it's going too far but I also accept I don't (or can't) fully understand. Does it really matter who does the voices as long as they're good at it?
I remember when I was about 14 a friend made fun of how my accent used to be when they first met me when I was 9 and had moved house and left a comprehensive to start at a new school - it was a prep school. We had not been friends at the prep school but when we both moved the next year to the same private school we became best friends. And then at 14 our friendship drifted as she found interests that I was not part of and she made different friends and became interested in boys.
I was 14 and it hurt that she was making fun of the Asian accent I had had when I was 9 - I still wonder about it occasionally today but only in the context of discussing school friendships with my children. But I genuinely think that if I had been white she would have found something else to use to achieve the desired effect - she had been a very good friend previously so clearly was not racist but she was finding new friends and maybe it was a way of trying to distance herself from our friendship by making fun of me, when previously she would have been more thoughtful when we were best friends.
So having said that, I agree with this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-44027613 and I disagree with the statement in the article by Shilpa Davé, a professor at the University of Virginia and author of Indian Accents: Brown Voice and Racial Performance in American Television and Film:
"It's a made-up accent that makes Apu an object of racial humour because of the way he talks rather than what he is saying. The enduring characteristic that he represents is that all Indians talk with a funny and foreign accent, compared to US accents," she told me.
I think made-up accents are used for people from lots of different countries - Europeans, Australians etc and are an object of humour. I really can't see why it is worse to do a made-up accent when it is someone with different colour skin. I find it strange that people would think someone is inferior because of skin colour but I do not find it strange that people would make fun of other people for what they consider their idiosyncrasies, whether that is accent or something else. Of course it would be kinder to not make fun of anyone but I have had tears streaming down my face with laughing so hard while people were being "gently" made fun of. What I consider "gentle" might of course be very different from what someone else considers "gentle". But I would hate to see a time where we can't laugh at ourselves and in the same spirit laugh at others.
Another good school friend (white) phoned me recently and reminded me of how in the 1980s we used to call each other racist names as a joke when we were at school. She was worried I had just gone along with it because I had felt unable to object. My recollection was that I was sure my friend was not racist so I had laughed about it and joined in because it was subversive and edgy. I had not seen her as white and me brown - we were just 2 people who both appreciated a subversive joke - probably why we were friends.
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Thanks for the reply, Gabriella, and for the link. An interesting article. Making fun of accents is something I'm familar with. My friends used to tease me about my mum's accent, even though it's a mild Finnish one. But then as a young child I used to laugh a little when my Irish nan used to say "tree" instead of "three".
As for your last paragraph, as a child I saw and was part of that kind of behaviour too. I don't think we even really understood what we were doing. Some of the most blatant racist behaviour I've seen was as a kid in the late 70's and early 80's when we lived in East London. My old man would sometimes come out with the most racist remarks, but then I also remember him going to the defence of an elderly Asian gentlemen who was receiving abuse on the estate we lived in at the time. Full of contradictions he was. I remember he had a mate, a West Indian geezer called Gilbert. They'd go out for drinks together, play cards etc. but one summer when my brother and I went to their work place all they did all day was hurl racist abuse at each other. At the time, my brother and I just found it funny. Was that normal then? Can't really say because I was too young. Times have changed in that respect, and mostly for the better, but focusing on things like the Apu character really does little, if nothing, to tackle real racism that exists in todays society.
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Racist fuckwit
https://www.rt.com/uk/493613-david-starkey-slavery-genocide/
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What an evil sewer rat!
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Racist fuckwit
https://www.rt.com/uk/493613-david-starkey-slavery-genocide/
Never liked Starkey, arrogant twat, but am surprised at that.
Littleroses:-
About time too, white actors should play white people and black actors black people.
No Italian should play Madama Butterfly? A Chinese-American gay male actor played that role on Broadway.
There was a Black Mikado when I was at school, a few of us went to see it.
Carmen Jones.
Lenny Henry has done Shakespeare, not Othello.
Hugh Quarshie turned down the part of Othello when he was at school, thought it was patronising to be asked because he was black.
It all depends how it is done.
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Statues bad
https://eu.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/24/madison-protests-what-know-forward-statue-toppled/3249239001/
Another one, surprising:-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53259409
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Another interesting article
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/why-reading-frantz-fanon-matters/12416602?fbclid=IwAR3QDWEpCttvLSFmm8uiEJerRk_7pEaHvMVWCcDPplxVi19fHXEz9PkbKwk
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Racist fuckwit
https://www.rt.com/uk/493613-david-starkey-slavery-genocide/
I've always admired David Starkey for his way of popularising history, so I clicked on today's BBC story about him being fired (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53279273) prepared to be outraged at political correctness gone mad.
Unfortunately, it turns out he is guilty as charged.
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I've always admired David Starkey for his way of popularising history, so I clicked on today's BBC story about him being fired (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53279273) prepared to be outraged at political correctness gone mad.
Unfortunately, it turns out he is guilty as charged.
It is one of those things you hear and think he can't just have sad that, and each time you listen he did say that, and it gets worse each time you hear it.
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I've always admired David Starkey for his way of popularising history, so I clicked on today's BBC story about him being fired (http://www.religionethics.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53279273) prepared to be outraged at political correctness gone mad.
Unfortunately, it turns out he is guilty as charged.
I never really liked him, although, as you say, he did popularise history. I'm glad he's been fired/resigned, even though it was only a honorary position.
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I never really liked him, although, as you say, he did popularise history. I'm glad he's been fired/resigned, even though it was only a honorary position.
Hmmm...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53308061
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I thought about starting a new thread about the shooting of Jacob Blake, and the arrest of a 17 year old as regards killings in Kenosha but it is all part of what was triggered by George Floyd's murder. It's already prompted major walk outs in sports and is going to be a constant theme and backdrop to the US Election. Given the already dysfunctional nature of the election, the continuing effects of Covid which include many more redundancies, my posterior is shrilly cacaphonous
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53926277
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/basketball/53926764
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I thought about starting a new thread about the shooting of Jacob Blake, and the arrest of a 17 year old as regards killings in Kenosha but it is all part of what was triggered by George Floyd's murder. It's already prompted major walk outs in sports and is going to be a constant theme and backdrop to the US Election. Given the already dysfunctional nature of the election, the continuing effects of Covid which include many more redundancies, my posterior is shrilly cacaphonous
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53926277
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/basketball/53926764
I really don't know what the police in the USA are thinking about. You'd think with the spotlight on them after George Floyd, they'd be a bit more careful. But this is just the latest of a whole spate of instances of police brutality some of which occurred at protests about George Floyd.
The conclusion can only be that some police officers are unusually stupid.
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I really don't know what the police in the USA are thinking about. You'd think with the spotlight on them after George Floyd, they'd be a bit more careful. But this is just the latest of a whole spate of instances of police brutality some of which occurred at protests about George Floyd.
The conclusion can only be that some police officers are unusually stupid.
As are their bosses and, ultimately, their President who seems to be strangely silent on the matter.
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It is the culture of the US to shoot first and ask questions later. >:(
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It is the culture of the US to shoot first and ask questions later. >:(
Well, I certainly think that the prevalence of guns in the US doesn't help, but a lot of these incidents are unjustified even so.
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Apparently it's to be expected....
https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tucker-carlson-kenosha-protest-killings_n_5f46ff4cc5b6cf66b2b272db?ncid=other_twitter_cooo9wqtham&utm_campaign=share_twitter&=1&guccounter=1
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Jacob Blake was kept in handcuffs while in hospital
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53950621
I don't think the problem with US police officers is racism so much as profound stupidity.
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Jacob Blake was kept in handcuffs while in hospital
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53950621
I don't think the problem with US police officers is racism so much as profound stupidity.
Sure.
Which is why a black man not carrying a gun gets shot in the back seven times and a white man who has already shot two people dead can walk towards the police still carrying the gun and not get asked to lie on the ground or indeed get a knee on his neck. You can argue it is both profound stupidity and racism, but to try to negate the racism, is itself profound stupidity.
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Sure.
Which is why a black man not carrying a gun gets shot in the back seven times and a white man who has already shot two people dead can walk towards the police still carrying the gun and not get asked to lie on the ground or indeed get a knee on his neck. You can argue it is both profound stupidity and racism, but to try to negate the racism, is itself profound stupidity.
I completely agree with you.
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Sure.
Which is why a black man not carrying a gun gets shot in the back seven times and a white man who has already shot two people dead can walk towards the police still carrying the gun and not get asked to lie on the ground or indeed get a knee on his neck. You can argue it is both profound stupidity and racism, but to try to negate the racism, is itself profound stupidity.
And this from the country that claims to be "The Leader of the Western World"!
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And this from the country that claims to be "The Leader of the Western World"!
The excrescence, more like, with Trump in charge. >:(
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The excrescence, more like, with Trump in charge. >:(
Jeez! You place it far higher on the scale than I do then!
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In a country the size of the USA there will be thousands of police enforcement incidents occurring every day. Some of these will inevitably involve mistakes due to genuine errors of judgement or deliberate acts done by corrupt employees within the police force. Hopefully such incidents will form a tiny minority when compared with the total number of justifiable incidents. There is an obvious danger of over interpreting a tiny minority of selected bad eggs within these thousands of incidents and extrapolating them to indicate widespread racism.
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In a country the size of the USA there will be thousands of police enforcement incidents occurring every day. Some of these will inevitably involve mistakes due to genuine errors of judgement or deliberate acts done by corrupt employees within the police force. Hopefully such incidents will form a tiny minority when compared with the total number of justifiable incidents. There is an obvious danger of over interpreting a tiny minority of selected bad eggs within these thousands of incidents and extrapolating them to indicate widespread racism.
Smell some coffee when you wake up.
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In a country the size of the USA there will be thousands of police enforcement incidents occurring every day. Some of these will inevitably involve mistakes due to genuine errors of judgement or deliberate acts done by corrupt employees within the police force. Hopefully such incidents will form a tiny minority when compared with the total number of justifiable incidents. There is an obvious danger of over interpreting a tiny minority of selected bad eggs within these thousands of incidents and extrapolating them to indicate widespread racism.
Whitesplaining and whitewashing
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In a country the size of the USA there will be thousands of police enforcement incidents occurring every day. Some of these will inevitably involve mistakes due to genuine errors of judgement or deliberate acts done by corrupt employees within the police force. Hopefully, such incidents will form a tiny minority when compared with the total number of justifiable incidents. There is an obvious danger of over-interpreting a tiny minority of selected bad eggs within these thousands of incidents and extrapolating them to indicate widespread racism.
I know that you are not trying to defend the indefensible, but I would draw your attention to posts on this Forum relating to the British police.
A copper does a good deed, protecting innocents from a knife attack by an Islamic fundamentalist and not a word shows up in praise of such actions as it is 'part of the expected actions that go with the job', but let any copper step outside the accepted boundaries of police behaviour and the shit-slinging is of monumental proportions as if the bad eggs are the norm. #234 above is a case in point!
Obviously the press coverage of American 'bad eggs' is greater due to the problems caused by all officers being armed and the frequent use of those arms.
I agree that such incidents, should, in a perfect world, not occur ever, even once, but we are all, including the coppers, human and as such not one single one of us is perfect.
Only one man in the entire history of humanity has had that claim made on his behalf and he was crucified!
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In a country the size of the USA there will be thousands of police enforcement incidents occurring every day. Some of these will inevitably involve mistakes due to genuine errors of judgement or deliberate acts done by corrupt employees within the police force. Hopefully such incidents will form a tiny minority when compared with the total number of justifiable incidents. There is an obvious danger of over interpreting a tiny minority of selected bad eggs within these thousands of incidents and extrapolating them to indicate widespread racism.
Get real AB, racism is rife in the US, always has been and has got much worse since Trump became president! >:(
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A copper does a good deed, protecting innocents from a knife attack by an Islamic fundamentalist and not a word shows up in praise of such actions as it is 'part of the expected actions that go with the job',
Rubbish.
Frequently they get praised when they go above and beyond what is expected, especially in the press and by politicians, admittedly the reasons for that praise is not altogether straightforward but it happens and often.
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Smell some coffee when you wake up.
Yes, I was beginning to think of what sort of comment might penetrate the woolly cloud-cuckoo land AB inhabits.
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Rubbish.
Frequently they get praised when they go above and beyond what is expected, especially in the press and by politicians, admittedly the reasons for that praise is not altogether straightforward but it happens and often.
Not on this Forum they don't!
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Not on this Forum they don't!
Possibly not. But neither do the fire service, refuse collectors, road sweepers, traffic wardens, teachers, bakers, shop workers, fishermen and any other number of jobs. It is, as far as I am aware not the function of this board to show appreciation for any profession. Occasionally as with the health workers recently appreciation has been shown, but as a rule it doesn't usually occur.
But if it worries you I will offer a secular prayer this evening for all accountants everywhere for the work they do for us.
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Possibly not. But neither do the fire service, refuse collectors, road sweepers, traffic wardens, teachers, bakers, shop workers, fishermen and any other number of jobs. It is, as far as I am aware not the function of this board to show appreciation for any profession. Occasionally as with the health workers recently appreciation has been shown, but as a rule, it doesn't usually occur.
But if it worries you I will offer a secular prayer this evening for all accountants everywhere for the work they do for us.
Your sarcasm does you no favours, but, hey ho, this thread is about America's police not the U K's and I do not want to be the source or cause of a derail.
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Sure.
Which is why a black man not carrying a gun gets shot in the back seven times and a white man who has already shot two people dead can walk towards the police still carrying the gun and not get asked to lie on the ground or indeed get a knee on his neck. You can argue it is both profound stupidity and racism, but to try to negate the racism, is itself profound stupidity.
Oh FFS.
Saying that the US police has issues other than racism is not negating racism. Will you please stop with the “you’re either with us or you are against us” bullshit.
[/quote]
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Oh FFS.
Saying that the US police has issues other than racism is not negating racism. Will you please stop with the “you’re either with us or you are against us” bullshit.
Oh FFS. Did I say you are either with us or against us ?
No, I believe I fucking did not.
Which bit of this is you not saying that the police are stupid as opposed to racist?
I don't think the problem with US police officers is racism so much as profound stupidity.
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Your sarcasm does you no favours, but, hey ho, this thread is about America's police not the U K's and I do not want to be the source or cause of a derail.
Tell you what I'll quit my sarcasm if you quit accusing all and sundry of hating the police or being anti-semitic.
Do we have a deal?
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Tell you what I'll quit my sarcasm if you quit accusing all and sundry of hating the police or being anti-semitic.
Do we have a deal?
Tell you what, I'll quit "accusing all and sundry of hating the police" when I see a post that does not highlight only those who do not uphold the standards that the vast majority seem to be capable of doing every day and I will stop accusing ONE poster of being anti-Semitic when said poster slags off a named person with no specific reason to do so other than the fact that the person being taken the piss out of was Jewish.
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Tell you what, I'll quit "accusing all and sundry of hating the police" when I see a post that does not highlight only those who do not uphold the standards that the vast majority seem to be capable of doing every day and I will stop accusing ONE poster of being anti-Semitic when said poster slags off a named person with no specific reason to do so other than the fact that the person being taken the piss out of was Jewish.
That's just making shite up.
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other than the fact that the person being taken the piss out of was Jewish.
Funny that. I thought he was taking the piss out of him because he was a mime artist.
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It really didn't.
Given that HC was the clear winner of the popular vote, it can be argued that it did.
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Oh FFS. Did I say you are either with us or against us ?
Effectively yes. You accused me of trying to negate racism by claiming that the police in the US seem very stupid.
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Given that HC was the clear winner of the popular vote, it can be argued that it did.
Only if you argue it also did in the past*:
Five times a candidate has won the popular vote and lost the election. Andrew Jackson in 1824 (to John Quincy Adams); Samuel Tilden in 1876 (to Rutherford B. Hayes); Grover Cleveland in 1888 (to Benjamin Harrison); Al Gore in 2000 (to George W. Bush); Hillary Clinton in 2016 (to Donald J. Trump).
*And not that I mind but why are you pulling in a post from the start of the thread back in May?!
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Given that HC was the clear winner of the popular vote, it can be argued that it did.
The process that was in place worked exactly as designed. It did not break down. It's more accurate to say it's not fit for purpose, but then again, its purpose was to avoid the large states swamping the will of the small states, so you could say it is fit for purpose.
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Effectively yes. You accused me of trying to negate racism by claiming that the police in the US seem very stupid.
I repeat:
Which bit of this is you not saying that the police are stupid as opposed to racist?
I don't think the problem with US police officers is racism so much as profound stupidity.
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I repeat:
Which bit of this is you not saying that the police are stupid as opposed to racist?
You're now lying about what I wrote. Please go back and read my post again; this time for comprehension.
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You're now lying about what I wrote. Please go back and read my post again; this time for comprehension.
I agree with trentvoyager's reading of your post.
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Given that HC was the clear winner of the popular vote, it can be argued that it did.
Except that is allowed in the democratic process in the US.
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I agree with trentvoyager's reading of your post.
Well you're famous for reading things that aren't there into other people's posts.
Anyway, let's go with this: there are many problems besetting policing in the USA at the moment. Racism is one of them as is the general prevalence of guns in the population, but overall, profound stupidity beats these out. How can it be anything other than totally moronic to handcuff a paralysed man under arrest to his bed because "procedure". How can it be anything other than totally moronic to force push a man over and then ignore him even though there is blood leaking from his ears while you are policing a demonstration against police brutality?
There is racism in the US police, but you will not be able to address it until you address the institutional stupidity.
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Well you're famous for reading things that aren't there into other people's posts.
Anyway, let's go with this: there are many problems besetting policing in the USA at the moment. Racism is one of them as is the general prevalence of guns in the population, but overall, profound stupidity beats these out. How can it be anything other than totally moronic to handcuff a paralysed man under arrest to his bed because "procedure". How can it be anything other than totally moronic to force push a man over and then ignore him even though there is blood leaking from his ears while you are policing a demonstration against police brutality?
There is racism in the US police, but you will not be able to address it until you address the institutional stupidity.
Sounds ok.
Now what do you think I'm trying to say here:
I don't think the problem with Jeremyp is stupidity so much as being misguided.
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Only if you argue it also did in the past*:
Five times a candidate has won the popular vote and lost the election. Andrew Jackson in 1824 (to John Quincy Adams); Samuel Tilden in 1876 (to Rutherford B. Hayes); Grover Cleveland in 1888 (to Benjamin Harrison); Al Gore in 2000 (to George W. Bush); Hillary Clinton in 2016 (to Donald J. Trump).
*And not that I mind but why are you pulling in a post from the start of the thread back in May?!
Because when I clicked to go to the first unread post, that was what came up. I didn't notice how old it was. I haven't been following this thread recently.
The fact that it's happened before doesn't make it any less undemocratic.
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Because when I clicked to go to the first unread post, that was what came up. I didn't notice how old it was. I haven't been following this thread recently.
The fact that it's happened before doesn't make it any less undemocratic.
As others have pointed out the smaller states were in some ways protected by this mechanism - I'm not arguing it is right just that historically that's the way it has been. For sure it needs reviewing, but that is not likely to happen any time soon given the polarised nature of US politics.
IS our system any more democratic where we get big majority's for a minority of the vote ? That goes for both main parties.
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As others have pointed out the smaller states were in some ways protected by this mechanism - I'm not arguing it is right just that historically that's the way it has been. For sure it needs reviewing, but that is not likely to happen any time soon given the polarised nature of US politics.
IS our system any more democratic where we get big majority's for a minority of the vote ? That goes for both main parties.
No - we're pretty undemocratic as well. As a start, we should introduce the single transferable vote for all elections.
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Trump and the weaponization of soup
https://heavy.com/news/2020/09/trump-cans-of-soup-weapons/
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On anotherforum, I see there is a topic about the Kenosha shooting started by a poster who has a son living only blocks away from the Police Station there. I shall be reading through that today.
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Sounds ok.
Now what do you think I'm trying to say here:
I don't think the problem with Jeremyp is stupidity so much as being misguided.
I think you are saying you don't grasp the nuances of the situation.
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I think you are saying you don't grasp the nuances of the situation.
I don't think so. Lectures from those of us who think in absolutist concrete terms are always welcome, but in the end useless.
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I don't think so. Lectures from those of us who think in absolutist concrete terms are always welcome, but in the end useless.
But I'm not the one thinking in absolutist terms: you are.
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But I'm not the one thinking in absolutist terms: you are.
Proof would be welcome.
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Proof would be welcome.
When I said I think stupidity is the biggest problem, you leapt to the conclusion that I think racism is not a problem.
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When I said I think stupidity is the biggest problem, you leapt to the conclusion that I think racism is not a problem.
I repeat:
I don't think the problem with US police officers is racism so much as profound stupidity.
Have it your own way though. I'm really not interested in your continued denial.
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I repeat:
Have it your own way though. I'm really not interested in your continued denial.
That's jut a colloquial way to rank stupidity above racism in the list of problems that the US police has.
The statistics are difficult to quantify, but it appears that, given you are having an encounter with the police, you are as likely to end up dead if you are white as if you are black. So whatever it is that causes people interacting with police to get shot, it is not racism.
However, black people are much more likely to have an encounter with the police in the first place. That is racism, but if it ended there, you'd say black people are harassed more than whites which is bad enough, but it's not as bad as being shot.
There are two problems here that need to be resolved: the racism and the violence. Solving one is not going to solve the other.
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Edinburgh University cancels David Hume
https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/students/2020/equality-diversity-and-inclusion-an-update
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Edinburgh University cancels David Hume
https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/students/2020/equality-diversity-and-inclusion-an-update
This
https://uneasyessays.com/2020/09/13/remembering-hume/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
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Edinburgh University cancels David Hume
https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/students/2020/equality-diversity-and-inclusion-an-update
It is as your second link notes, a nonsense. Where will it stop? Can I demand that there should be no statues of Thatcher due to her attacks on the gay community? Of course not.
Anyway, a statue is handy for egg target practice.
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It is as your second link notes, a nonsense. Where will it stop? Can I demand that there should be no statues of Thatcher due to her attacks on the gay community? Of course not.
Yes you can and I think you would have a better case than the people wanting to cancel David Hume who was a product of his time. I still think it would be generally a waste of your time though.
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Yes you can and I think you would have a better case than the people wanting to cancel David Hume who was a product of his time. I still think it would be generally a waste of your time though.
Well yes of course I could, but I've got better things to do with my time.
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Having this as the backdrop to the US election is very scary
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-54275346
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Derek Chauvin found guilty on all counts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-56721011
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Derek Chauvin found guilty on all counts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-56721011
Fine, now we will see just how long the string of appeals is going to be!
Owlswing
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