Religion and Ethics Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nearly Sane on November 13, 2020, 09:06:17 AM
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I recently reread Joan Smith's Misogynies and the problems with the police investigations into Sutcliffe's murders with their desperation to see it as simply a matter of someone murdering prostitutes which ended up costing more women their lifes, both shines a light on past attitudes but makes me wonder if much has changed. The idea for example in some of the Rotherham cases that the victims were somehow consenting.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-54874713
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Tweet from Hallie Rubenhold, author of The Five,
"Let's remember Wilma McCann, Emily Jackson, Irene Richardson, Patricia Atkinson, Jayne MacDonald, Jean Jordan, Yvonne Pearson, Helen Rytka, Vera Millward, Josephine Whitaker, Barbara Leach, Marguerite Walls, Jacqueline Hill. We don't need to mention Peter Sutcliffe again.'
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And article from Joan Smith
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/13/peter-sutcliffe-crimes-women-police-investigation-murders-misogny?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true
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Powerful piece by Jools Denby
https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/18870891.amp/?ref=twtrec&__twitter_impression=true
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I doubt too many tears will be shed for that piece of the proverbial!
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And another article by the redoubtable Joan Smith
https://unherd.com/2020/11/forty-years-after-the-ripper-women-arent-safe/
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I think Sutcliffe's body should be cremated and flushed down the sewer!
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I think Sutcliffe's body should be cremated and flushed down the sewer!
Do you have anything to say in relation to the points made in the articles about the failings in the investigations, and that there are still huge issues?
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I think Sutcliffe's body should be cremated and flushed down the sewer!
A death is a death. Even Sutcliffe's remains should be treated with basic respect.
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A death is a death. Even Sutcliffe's remains should be treated with basic respect.
Sorry to disagree, but what respect, even basic respect, did that evil bastard show to his victims?
Less than NONE!
He got better than he deserved - forty years of life - he probably robbed his victims of more than that EACH!
Why in the name of whatever you hold holy should he be shown any respect?
Owlswing
)O(
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Sorry to disagree, but what respect, even basic respect, did that evil bastard show to his victims?
Less than NONE!
He got better than he deserved - forty years of life - he probably robbed his victims of more than that EACH!
Why in the name of whatever you hold holy should he be shown any respect?
Owlswing
)O(
I agree, Sutcliffe deserves no respect whatsoever.
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How predictable.
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How predictable.
How so? Please.
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How so? Please.
Self-righteous savagery, and failure to notice that I said his remains should be treated with basic respect.
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The question of what to do with Sutcliffe's remains is surely an extremely narrow cul-de-sac, and whatever is done does nothing for the women he murdered, nor deals with any of the issues raised in the articles about the investigation then which due to its faults based on the assumptions about women led to Sutcliffe have more time to murder more women. It also ignores the points raised that there are still issues about how we approach such cases.
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A death is a death. Even Sutcliffe's remains should be treated with basic respect.
There's nobody left alive, as far as I know, who cares in the slightest what happens to his remains.
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There's nobody left alive, as far as I know, who cares in the slightest what happens to his remains.
Two people on here apparently care - they want them to suffer any possible indignity. I'm sure the sort of person who waits outside courts and prisons to scream abuse at prison vans, of whom there are many, would agree.
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The question of what to do with Sutcliffe's remains is surely an extremely narrow cul-de-sac, and whatever is done does nothing for the women he murdered, nor deals with any of the issues raised in the articles about the investigation then which due to its faults based on the assumptions about women led to Sutcliffe have more time to murder more women. It also ignores the points raised that there are still issues about how we approach such cases.
I'm not convinced that the fact that he targeted prostitutes has anything to do with him not being caught sooner. Mistakes were made but I think they had more to do with the processes used by the police at the time together with some old fashioned incompetence.
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The question of what to do with Sutcliffe's remains is surely an extremely narrow cul-de-sac, and whatever is done does nothing for the women he murdered, nor deals with any of the issues raised in the articles about the investigation then which due to its faults based on the assumptions about women led to Sutcliffe have more time to murder more women. It also ignores the points raised that there are still issues about how we approach such cases.
It's not ignoring those points - it's a different subject.
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Two people on here apparently care - they want them to suffer any possible indignity. I'm sure the sort of person who waits outside courts and prisons to scream abuse at prison vans, of whom there are many, would agree.
I stand corrected. Although I don't think Owlswing or Little Roses really care what happens to Sutcliffe's body, it looks like you do.
Or maybe it's all just posturing on a message board and none of you will give it a second thought when his ashes get buried in an anonymous plot in a secret location or whatever it is that will happen.
Nearly Sane is right: there are far more important issues arising from this than what happens to a particular dead body.
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Two people on here apparently care - they want them to suffer any possible indignity. I'm sure the sort of person who waits outside courts and prisons to scream abuse at prison vans, of whom there are many, would agree.
You do like make comments in order to try to wind people up! Since when did human remains suffer? Do you think Hitler's remains should have been treated with dignity?
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It's not ignoring those points - it's a different subject.
And an extremely unimportant one in terms of what is raised. Would you care to comment on the issues raised in the articles?
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You do like make comments in order to try to wind people up! Since when did human remains suffer? Do you think Hitler's remains should have been treated with dignity?
Had he been taken alive and executed, yes. He would have been cremated, and the ashes disposed of, in the same way as the other executed war criminals. All I'm asking for is for them not to be treated with deliberate contempt, as you suggested ("flushed down the sewer").
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And an extremely unimportant one in terms of what is raised. Would you care to comment on the issues raised in the articles?
I agree that it's relatively unimportant, but I didn't start it. That was LR, with her comment about flushing his ashes down the sewer. He's dead, and no-one will miss him, but some self-righteous types can't just leave it at that.
Having read the links, it does seem that the police were guilty of both gross incompetence and misogyny, the latter reinforcing the former to some extent. Of course, some blame must attach to the hoaxer, who I believe was eventually caught, and served a longish term in prison.
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I agree that it's relatively unimportant, but I didn't start it. That was LR, with her comment about flushing his ashes down the sewer. He's dead, and no-one will miss him, but some self-righteous types can't just leave it at that.
Having read the links, it does seem that the police were guilty of both gross incompetence and misogyny, the latter reinforcing the former to some extent. Of course, some blame must attach to the hoaxer, who I believe was eventually caught, and served a longish term in prison.
The thing thing is this is not just about this case and the past but an issue since then and still now. You only have to look at some of the comments in the Spycops case to see that. Also the attitudes of some police in any of the well known grooming gangs cases.
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Self-righteous savagery and failure to notice that I said his remains should be treated with basic respect.
NO NO, a thousand times NO!
His remains are still HIM and anything "him" is beneath contempt and should be treated as such!
His actions have, in my opinion, denied even his remains the right to be treated as even ex-human!
Owlswing
)O(
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I wish Floo and you could see that by clinging to this narrative of how vile Sutcliffe (or any random murderer and paedophile here if you wish) was and therefore deserving of nothing, you are lowering yourself to the standards displayed by those you despise.
It's an ugly side of human nature I am reconciled to; but it's not attractive, it's not healthy and it's not right.
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I wish Floo and you could see that by clinging to this narrative of how vile Sutcliffe (or any random murderer and paedophile here if you wish) was and therefore deserving of nothing, you are lowering yourself to the standards displayed by those you despise.
It's an ugly side of human nature I am reconciled to; but it's not attractive, it's not healthy and it's not right.
Please don't call me Floo. You are entitled to your opinion.
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Please don't call me Floo. You are entitled to your opinion.
Apologies LR, slip of the old memory.
I am indeed entitled to my opinion, and you are entitled not to engage with it. Which is the only thing your statement tells me.
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NO NO, a thousand times NO!
His remains are still HIM
No they aren't. He's dead and gone. His remains are just a rotting corpse.
His actions have, in my opinion, denied even his remains the right to be treated as even ex-human!
He is remains just are an ex-human. It's a simple fact.
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I wish Floo and you could see that by clinging to this narrative of how vile Sutcliffe (or any random murderer and paedophile here if you wish) was and therefore deserving of nothing, you are lowering yourself to the standards displayed by those you despise.
It's an ugly side of human nature I am reconciled to; but it's not attractive, it's not healthy and it's not right.
I agree with that and what Jeremy said immediately above me. People do tend to waste energy fuming about such things which is utterly futile on all levels.
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I agree with that and what Jeremy said immediately above me. People do tend to waste energy fuming about such things which is utterly futile on all levels.
So, because I disagree with you and Jeremy I have to shut up and not express my opinion on these boards?
Plus which, if I am not mistaken, and I have no doubt I will be rapidly corrected if I am, they are still referred to as "HIS mortal remains"!
Owlswing
)O(
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So, because I disagree with you and Jeremy I have to shut up and not express my opinion on these boards?
Don't think anybody is saying that. But Discussion boards are by their very definition places where people put up different opinions and those opinions get challenged. It's then up to any given poster to defend those opinions if they wish to.
Sometimes what I find frustrating is when people make a statement and then when it is challenged no further clarification is forthcoming. Usually a rather bland "we'll have to agree to disagree" statement is made which ends any exchange views or any real thought about what has been challenged.
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So, because I disagree with you and Jeremy I have to shut up and not express my opinion on these boards?
When did Robbie say that?Plus which, if I am not mistaken, and I have no doubt I will be rapidly corrected if I am, they are still referred to as "HIS mortal remains"!
True but irrelevant. If I say "his car", does that imply that the car is him?
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When did Robbie say that? True but irrelevant. If I say "his car", does that imply that the car is him?
You cannot think that that is a valid contradiction (NS possible wording error correction requested, please) of my statement?
"His Car" is not and never was a physical part of him! "His mortal remains were"!
And as I accept you as a living, thinking, human being I don't think that you do either!
Owlswing
)O(
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You cannot think that that is a valid contradiction (NS possible wording error correction requested, please) of my statement?
"His Car" is not and never was a physical part of him! "His mortal remains were"!
And as I accept you as a living, thinking, human being I don't think that you do either!
Owlswing
)O(
The body is not him. He's dead. Nothing you do to his body will affect him in any way, nor will it bing back his victims. His body should just be disposed of in a hygienic and safe manner with no fuss.
It's more important to discuss lessons learned from the case so that we can do what we can to stop it from happening again.
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It's more important to discuss lessons learned from the case so that we can do what we can to stop it from happening again.
nk
Truly I wish you luck with that!
I would bet that people were saying that right after The Ripper stopped operating (Why he stopped is still a matter of conjecture, I think), and are still (you are proof) saying it!
The very fact of how long Suttcliffe operated before being caught is a demonstration of all the things that can happen to extend how long it takes to catch a clever (expletive deleted) like him.
Owlswing
)O(
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nk
Truly I wish you luck with that!
What are you saying? There's no point in trying because you'll never have 100% success? Why bother with seatbelts because some people will still die in car accidents? Or gun laws because shootings still happen?
The very fact of how long Suttcliffe operated before being caught is a demonstration of all the things that can happen to extend how long it takes to catch a clever (expletive deleted) like him.
So we should just let them happen? We shouldn't do anything to stop them from happening?
Do you know what? If Sutcliffe were operating today, he wouldn't get away with being interviewed nine times.
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Posted by: Owlswing
« on: Today at 09:31:50 AM »Insert Quote
Quote from: Robbie on November 20, 2020, 06:04:27 PM
I agree with that and what Jeremy said immediately above me. People do tend to waste energy fuming about such things which is utterly futile on all levels.
So, because I disagree with you and Jeremy I have to shut up and not express my opinion on these boards?
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Wht you on about Owl? I wasn't thinking of you or anyone particularly when I made that remark.
You're free to say whatever you think so can anybody else. I dunno why you are in such a tiz about this. The man is dead and gone, a great relief for the relatives of his victims andthe survivors. He's not worth wasting any more breath.
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Watched the 4 part documentary on the case, The Ripper, on Netflix. It underlines how the lack of skepticism about the tape and the letters diverted the investigation away from listening to women who had been attacked and survived. As is mentioned, anyone with a passing knowledge of the Jack the Ripper deaths would find the letters so reminiscent of the letters sent then, which were also almost certainly hoaxes, to be very suspicious of them. The tape also sounds in tone very similar to that approach.
The documentary is very well done. The testimony from those who survived attacks quite astounding.